IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-03
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00:44:14 <supermop> im off to get a margarita
00:44:26 <supermop> drink 2L beer for me
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02:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you missed the optimal beer drinking time by about 2 months
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12:18:32 <Alberth> found the bugs I reported yesterday?
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12:28:07 <Alberth> well, more like suggestions to improve on :p
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12:38:40 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, no news good news for a week, I should do something
12:39:23 <Wolf01> Like, fixing a bug or fiddling with vehicles
12:41:53 <Wolf01> andythenorth, should we use github feature to track what we want to put in NRT?
12:47:23 <Wolf01> The readme is difficult to track
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12:53:20 <Wolf01> This could get really weird, if a grf disables normal road, what should be build in place of it?
12:55:30 <Wolf01> The scenario editor code is whispering strange things to my ear
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13:02:49 <frosch123> is there a difference to spot between the toolbars?
13:03:19 <Wolf01> No, I just can't figure out why DeleteWindowByClass(WC_BUILD_TOOLBAR); doesn't work
13:03:51 <frosch123> would we allow building tram tracks in se?
13:03:58 <Wolf01> Maybe it's because _cur_roadtype_identifier isn't a pointer
13:04:52 <Wolf01> That's a real question, I would like to be able to build any roadtype in se
13:05:30 <Wolf01> But there's something to understand about it: the introduction dates, availability to real companies etc
13:06:07 <Wolf01> In se you can cheat the date to 2000, build something, go back to 1900
13:07:29 <frosch123> i think the same applies to funding industries
13:07:44 <Wolf01> Should we allow everything regarldess of the date and let scenario designers the respondibility to not fuck up things, or?
13:08:02 <frosch123> i think it should be consistent to industries, just to make it consistent
13:09:49 <Wolf01> Lol, it was WC_SCEN_BUILD_TOOLBAR not WC_BUILD_TOOLBAR
13:10:21 <Wolf01> But that closes the other toolbars too
13:12:53 <Wolf01> Docks don't even try to close the toolbar
13:14:47 <Wolf01> Eh, yes... I'm not using the allocatewindow function...
13:19:10 <Wolf01> Still doesn't give a fuck O_o
13:24:17 <Wolf01> Maybe the ID = 0 is not really a good way to find a window
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13:39:38 <Alberth> warn the designer of mistakes on closing the editor? (bit late, perhaps notify him/her in another way too?)
13:44:31 <Wolf01> I'm going to try something for headache, from aspirin to guillotine
13:49:14 <Wolf01> return AllocateWindowDescFront<BuildRoadToolbarWindow>(&_build_road_scen_desc, _cur_roadtype_identifier.Pack() | TRANSPORT_ROAD); <- how bad could it be?
13:52:06 <Wolf01> A lot, because it fits only se :|
13:55:48 <frosch123> you are missing some shift there
13:55:58 <frosch123> Pack() and Transporttype overlap
13:56:29 <Wolf01> Yes, that's what I thought too, but I'm not convinced that's a good way to do it
13:57:59 <frosch123> why is it different to the in-game stuff?
13:58:22 <Wolf01> In-game it clears the building toolbar explicitly
13:58:52 <Wolf01> But in se, doing that clears every build toolbar and not just road one
13:58:56 <frosch123> in-game uses roadtype_identifier for the window number
13:59:35 <frosch123> RailToolbar uses transport type for window number
13:59:40 <frosch123> i think that makes more sense
13:59:59 <frosch123> not sure whether it needs a different window number for road and tram
14:00:10 <frosch123> but according to rail it does not need different numbers of subtypes
14:00:12 <Wolf01> Yes, I should change it back to transport type and use _cur_roadtype_id
14:02:51 <Wolf01> Done, more clear and works better
14:10:00 <Wolf01> Also fixed the crash, that was really easy
14:21:16 <Wolf01> frosch123, I was wondering, it will be possible to draw layers like "ground, road base, tram base, road, tram, catenary"?
14:23:35 <frosch123> yeah, i thought about that, but it does not work with the default sprites
14:23:55 <frosch123> i considered adding special overlay sprites when the roadtype changes
14:23:58 <Wolf01> Who uses default sprites anyway?
14:24:07 <frosch123> like junctions of dirtroad and normal road
14:24:17 <frosch123> where there is normal round, and then some dirt remains
14:24:55 <frosch123> well, "catenary continuation" is still on my list, but the rest is definitely "future"
14:25:29 <Wolf01> Because with road+tram you have 2 types in the same tile, with road you have only 1 type and you must check in all the 4 directions what are the other types
14:25:57 <frosch123> with cat. cont. i mean a junction with electrified and non-electrified track, where the catenary is only drawn for those roadbits where the neighboured tile is also electrified
14:25:58 <Wolf01> I think it's the same on catenary
14:26:29 <frosch123> yeah, but with the catenary sprites it works :) but for deault road we lack sprites without grass
14:27:14 <frosch123> possibly, but not now :)
14:32:22 <V453000> a box with wheely boxes visiting it to carry other boxes
14:32:48 <Wolf01> That's the general definition :D
14:33:05 <frosch123> when wolf is asking andy, it's most likely a lego factory
14:36:02 <Wolf01> He should make a lego economy for FIRS next :P
14:43:26 * Wolf01 browses forums looking for new features to work on
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15:03:07 <andythenorth> V453000: Amazon Warehouse? o_O
15:03:49 <andythenorth> eh? Wolf01 ^ wrong person :P
15:04:16 <andythenorth> accepts: chemicals. produces: toys
15:04:22 <andythenorth> no toys cargo in FIRS yet
15:04:54 <Cornelius> full with pba chems ^^
15:06:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: ideas….adjustable ship capacity
15:07:01 <andythenorth> ships aren’t so road-ish
15:09:25 <frosch123> "not compatible with tram"
15:13:18 <andythenorth> movement would work ok though
15:13:40 <Wolf01> Also not compatible with other roads, must build bridges
15:13:49 <Cornelius> any reddit mod available?
15:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you assume there are reddit mods here?
15:14:30 <frosch123> they used to have their own channel
15:14:37 <Cornelius> ahhh I see, new to irc and all
15:18:47 <andythenorth> what could ships trade capacity for on refit?
15:19:23 <andythenorth> you can have 25% more capacity, but only in black
15:19:27 <frosch123> payment decay rate?
15:19:33 <andythenorth> if you want red, you get 25% less capacity
15:19:48 * andythenorth never uses breakdowns though
15:19:52 <frosch123> if 10% of cargo goas off-board, you get paid less
15:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just add running cost
15:21:06 * andythenorth just trying to post-hoc rationalise not having station capacity refits available ;D
15:21:15 <andythenorth> terrible behaviour
15:21:25 <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE is born
15:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> trading speed is useless, faster speed always wins
15:22:18 <andythenorth> 25% more capcity, 25% less speed = same result, no?
15:22:28 <andythenorth> allowing variance for distance
15:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> because you earn less
15:22:48 * andythenorth was only thinking about throughput
15:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ship throughput is infinite anyway
15:25:12 <frosch123> if you exchange capacity for running cost, you make the choice purely visual
15:25:16 <frosch123> which may not be a bad thing
15:25:55 <frosch123> though more smaller ships give better station rating
15:26:20 <frosch123> thought that may trade off with purchase cost
15:27:48 <andythenorth> hmm, refitting gets a physicall bigger ship? o_O
15:28:11 <frosch123> no, but less need for overlapping ships
15:28:49 <andythenorth> might be better to just spam the buy menu eh?
15:28:52 <Cornelius> is a hit box for ships still on the dev list or not going to happen?
15:29:11 <andythenorth> Cornelius be surprised if that happens
15:29:18 <andythenorth> assuming you mean collision detection
15:29:35 <andythenorth> at least one person has tried to patch it though iirc
15:29:41 <Cornelius> yes if that is the correct term for it
15:29:58 <frosch123> behaves like broodwar unit movement though :)
15:30:33 <Cornelius> is it also not a big drain on cpu?
15:36:00 <Alberth> we don't have it so far, so cpu drain is not so bad of that feature :p
15:38:19 <Alberth> frosch123: I am somewhat stuck with scenario tar loading, should that be a simple linear function, or should it be considered to be a form of world generation, or something else?
15:43:28 <frosch123> i don't think i understand the question
15:44:49 <Alberth> it's called with a dirty hack for testing
15:45:12 <Alberth> obviously, somewhere that scenario tar file needs to be loaded too
15:45:29 <frosch123> currently we have "play scenario" and "play heightmap"
15:45:46 <frosch123> the former has everything set up, while the latter gives you various generation parameters
15:45:53 <Alberth> and 'edit scenario' :p
15:46:35 <Alberth> yeah, but depending on what's exactly in the tar file, we may need to fill in the missing parts
15:47:21 <frosch123> for scenario editor i think loading a traditonal scenario and a new one would just be the same thing
15:47:42 <frosch123> can you change the mapsize with the new scenario format? i think no
15:48:00 <Alberth> I agree, you don't want content that's not in the file
15:48:26 <frosch123> i guess it depends on the content then :p
15:48:28 <Alberth> some layers can be resized, others cannot
15:49:47 <Alberth> for example, currently a "town" is just a position and a name
15:50:13 <frosch123> i think heightmaps are special, because you can get them from external sources.
15:50:15 <Alberth> I think it will make a mess with the roads layer, but we'll see
15:50:32 <frosch123> i do not see an "obvious" difference between old and new scenario
15:50:41 <frosch123> so, i would put them into the same folders, and load them the same way
15:50:59 <frosch123> except that after selecting to play a new scenario there may be an additional dialog
15:51:04 <frosch123> to set additional generatio options
15:51:09 <frosch123> similar as to when loadnig a heightmap
15:51:52 <Alberth> does it make sense to fold the loading into the world generation code?
15:52:06 <Alberth> or should it be kept separate?
15:52:50 <frosch123> worldgen is also in various files
15:53:10 <frosch123> there is genworld with the original mapgen, there is tgp for tgp, and there is landscape/industry to genrate parts
15:53:19 <Alberth> it could need eg town generation or industry generation
15:53:32 <frosch123> so, it's already a toolbox, since you can call parts from scenedit
15:53:52 <frosch123> both town and industry generation are available as separate items in scenedit
15:54:10 <frosch123> so, new file for loading new format imho :)
15:54:29 <Alberth> ok, I'll keep it separate then, as it should be either unique code, or just high-level calls to existing functions
15:54:57 <Alberth> we only have 300+ or so in /src already :p
15:56:00 <Alberth> ok, thanks, I'll see how that works out
16:37:57 <Wolf01> frosch123, just for info, are you still using my clone repo?
16:40:56 <frosch123> i pulled from various other places
16:41:14 <Wolf01> Ok, because I still getting sync messages from my repo
16:41:34 <frosch123> well, i think it still pulls from it
16:41:42 <frosch123> but i do not merge it, if there is anything new
16:42:20 <frosch123> i can remove the remote, if it bothers you :)
16:43:25 <Wolf01> It was just an info ;)
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17:24:02 <andythenorth> Iron Horse has a downside
17:24:18 <andythenorth> when the theme is ‘one obvious engine choice for any route’
17:24:30 <andythenorth> there is no engine variety :P
17:28:32 <goodger> same is true of SBB Set
17:28:34 <frosch123> i cannot remember any game since autoreplace where i ever had more than 3 engine types in ooperation
17:28:38 <frosch123> so, where is the problem?
17:28:44 <goodger> so many KISSs and TGVs
17:30:14 <andythenorth> it’s better with tank engines; I randomise reversing the graphcs
17:30:59 <andythenorth> I could mess with the lengths, and reverse the tender engines too
17:31:06 <andythenorth> that’s a lot of switches :D
17:31:58 <andythenorth> slower compile though
17:32:43 <Alberth> make -DNO_RANDOMIZE firs
17:33:18 <Alberth> euhm, iron_horse, of course
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17:44:22 <Lejving> So we have a game freeze lagging like for 1-2sec once or twice every minute... anyone got any sort of idea what can be causing it? or how can one debug it?
17:46:06 <Lejving> I just tested it, wasn't that
17:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> ships? traffic jams?
17:47:05 <Lejving> what do you mean by that frosch123 ?
17:47:18 <frosch123> is cargo distribution enabled?
17:48:10 <Lejving> oh there's like 10 of those settings, but dib mode for pax/mail/so on is on manual
17:48:15 <Lejving> but the trains are actually stopped now
17:48:35 <Lejving> so nothing is going on except me moving the camera and it freeze lags every now and then
17:48:49 <Lejving> and it's the same for all users
17:49:14 <frosch123> well, it's probably the server then
17:49:39 <frosch123> does it also happen if you pause the game, and only scroll?
17:51:07 <Lejving> wow it feels like when you put on your shoes after iceskating
17:51:16 <Lejving> what an epic feeling with the game not freezing every now and then lol!
18:08:19 <Lejving> if I turn off all newgrf except for one that crashes the game it still freezes
18:08:40 <Lejving> and it's only when unpaused
18:08:56 <frosch123> gamescripts or ais?
18:23:50 <Lejving> ok I found what it was
18:24:35 <Lejving> the game didn't like the 169 orders :d
18:24:47 <Lejving> I shall try more debugging see if there's exactly one setting that's causing
18:26:50 <Lejving> yeap speed detection is dun g00fed
18:27:03 <Lejving> I bet speed detection runs every x tick or so, and that's when it freezes
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18:59:45 <V453000> Wolf01: conditional order with speed check
19:05:36 <Wolf01> Is it checked on vehicle details or current speed?
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19:08:06 <frosch123> i wouldn't know why anything speed related would take considerable cpu time
19:09:06 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I don't see an use for it, I would do 2 lines, one for goods and one for passengers, but I would use waypoints
19:09:47 <V453000> it's for conditional order magic Wolf01
19:10:44 <V453000> openttdcoop using all functions of the game why are you surprised: )
19:10:51 <Lejving> we have another part of the orders just like the one I linked, and then somre more later on the orderlist... total of 36 speed checks
19:12:14 <frosch123> so what? evaluating the speed in orders is same as opening a vehicle gui and looking at the speed in the start/stop bar
19:12:29 <frosch123> so, do your orders contain infinite loops or something?
19:13:16 <frosch123> i mean if you had cdist enabled, this would screw up the order prediction
19:13:21 <frosch123> but without cdist, i have no idea
19:14:58 <Wolf01> <V453000> openttdcoop using all functions of the game why are you surprised: ) <- I'm surprised to not being able to understand how this feature is used
19:15:29 <V453000> well you make a train go to a waypoint
19:15:36 <V453000> but the waypoint has multiple places
19:15:43 <V453000> each place is with different railtype
19:15:53 <V453000> and the engine checks for railtype, and adjusts it's speed
19:16:32 <Wolf01> Oh, so it's a contraption made upon another contraption
19:16:49 <V453000> yeah it's a combination of two features
19:17:01 <V453000> resulting in opening a whole new dimension of shit to do
19:17:21 <frosch123> oh, i see... the order prediction is also executed when cdist is disabled :p
19:17:42 <V453000> is that the cause of this?
19:18:04 <frosch123> very likely, because the order predicition tries all possible results of conditional orders
19:18:25 <frosch123> so, if you have long chains of conditions, it tries all combinations...
19:18:31 <V453000> is that possible to fix/change?
19:18:50 <frosch123> i would *think* that it is only needed if cdist is enabled
19:18:58 <frosch123> but i am not very familar with that code
19:19:07 <frosch123> GetNextStoppingStation() is the keyword
19:21:26 <frosch123> do you have a savegame, so we can verify that it is that function?
19:31:28 <frosch123> apparently DeleteStaleLinks() is the keyword
19:31:42 <frosch123> it also does some recursive search on orders
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19:37:39 <frosch123> hmm, so the smallmap also shows all the links when cdist is disabled
19:38:01 <frosch123> so, it's no "just skip if cdist disabled " :)
19:38:07 <Lejving> yeah that's what I've been saying all the time!
19:39:34 <frosch123> maybe in some other channel :)
19:39:55 <Lejving> read between the lines!
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19:45:58 <frosch123> just delete the "* pickup" stations, and it should be fine
19:49:24 <frosch123> do you have 119 separate order lists?
19:49:36 <frosch123> or did you forgot sharing orders a few times?
19:49:47 <Lejving> must have been forgeting to share
19:50:24 <Lejving> all network trains should share same order
19:50:55 <frosch123> 1197/1455 are shared
19:55:38 <Lejving> guess who's the slave frosch123 :D
19:55:46 <Lejving> they make blueprints I get to do the salve work
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20:07:22 <V453000> before blueprints were mainstream
20:07:24 <frosch123> the cpu is the slave
20:11:47 <andythenorth> should FIRS docs be translated?
20:11:57 * andythenorth doesn’t have enough distractions yet
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21:11:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: I like how the last industry produces the input for its supplier
21:40:39 <V453000> frosch123: is there any hope to get moar perforamnce for us then? :)
21:41:12 <frosch123> no, that graph means there is no easy solution. someone actually has to understand the algorithm
21:41:31 <frosch123> which means, unless you can get hold of fonsinchen, nobody is going to check it
21:47:28 <andythenorth> Wolf01: after NRT, ‘flat docks’ o_O
21:48:40 <Wolf01> I think I'll lose myself in state machines, not just OTTD one, but for my game too
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21:59:36 <V453000> do we have some email for fonso?
22:01:40 <V453000> I'll send my personal slug
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23:04:14 <fonsinchen> Should I read all that backlog ...
23:04:47 <V453000> frosch found something weird here
23:05:04 <V453000> trains which are checking for max speed are causing massive lag
23:05:14 <V453000> the problem is, we have cargodist off
23:05:17 <V453000> yet it still affects it
23:05:35 <V453000> [if I understand what frosch said correctly]
23:07:10 <fonsinchen> Hmm, yes, I remember, but why did I do that?
23:07:23 <fonsinchen> There was some reason
23:08:21 <fonsinchen> Maybe I can figure it out from the commit log. BTW, what is the order list that triggers this?
23:09:06 <V453000> sec will provide the save
23:09:10 <V453000> yeah the orders are crazy
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23:12:24 <V453000> the idea is that the big train group goes through the whole loop and does whatever necessary
23:12:35 <V453000> the trains have a switch for max speed based on which railtype they drive on
23:13:02 <V453000> that way we can have them make decisions based on where they crossed a waypoint
23:14:21 <Wolf01> I still think you are playing the wrong game
23:14:35 <V453000> no other game has this much depth
23:15:11 <Wolf01> Pfffff, and that F video with combinators and shit?
23:15:25 <V453000> that's just binary bullshit
23:15:33 <V453000> it's amazing, of course
23:16:26 <Wolf01> No, I mean you should design Train Simulator scenarios instead of playing OTTD
23:17:07 <Wolf01> Because they are fucked up amazingly too
23:17:30 <V453000> here trains can do all sorts of crazy things :)
23:17:33 <fonsinchen> V453000: one problem with not updating the link graph when cargodist is off is that you can switch it on and off during the game. That leads to all kinds of funny corner cases if you also stop updating the link graph then. Like stale links staying around forever
23:18:14 <Wolf01> There can even do shunting puzzles
23:18:15 <V453000> does that mean this is unfixable?
23:18:25 <fonsinchen> It can probably be dealt with, but I just didn't think it would be that expensive.
23:18:42 <fonsinchen> Tracking down all the corner cases is certainly possible, but annoying.
23:19:04 <V453000> could you please try? :) I would greatly appreciate it, this feature allows us to do a whole new dimension of things
23:19:11 <fonsinchen> Another way would be making that function more efficient.
23:19:22 <fonsinchen> That's likely easier
23:21:45 <fonsinchen> V453000: Also, the link graph is a separate feature you can use without cargodist. You still see the links in the smallmap then.
23:22:07 <fonsinchen> Man those 32bit grfs are large ...
23:23:00 <V453000> but without cargodist, is that actually useful anyhow?
23:23:14 <V453000> like, would it be reasonable to make it a setting? even if non-gui setting
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23:30:21 <fonsinchen> V453000: A setting could be done. But there is this comment "There is potential for optimization here" that I left in DeleteStaleLinks() ,,, and in fact, all of the trains in your game look pretty similar
23:30:59 <V453000> all the trains doing this should be 1 order group
23:31:05 <fonsinchen> So, the overhead could probably be cut down to 1/#trains here if we can just identify trains that are the same
23:31:40 <fonsinchen> The problem is refitting
23:34:27 <fonsinchen> Because you don't see that the trains are the same then. That is they are in fact the same but they still carry different cargo types.
23:34:47 <V453000> oh so it isn't just about order sharing
23:35:06 <fonsinchen> But, thinking of it, this function should actually abort as soon as it finds one train that hits the link
23:35:27 <fonsinchen> And if all the trains are doing the same, that should be the first one it checks
23:35:36 <fonsinchen> ... unless there is some other bug
23:51:23 <fonsinchen> V453000: Well there is this one huge order list with tons and tons of trains following it and then some other order list with very few vehicles that visit their links very rarely
23:52:06 <fonsinchen> whenever that latter link times out it goes and checks all of the big order list in order to see if one of the vehicles there might ever visit the link that's timing out
23:52:10 <fonsinchen> That takes forever
23:53:40 <fonsinchen> And yes, there is already an optimization that first checks if both stations are actually in the order list
23:55:53 <fonsinchen> V453000: Can you point me to the vehicles that server the links that are timing out in your game?
23:58:07 <fonsinchen> no, links between stations. But I can probably figure that out myself ..
23:58:25 <V453000> I'm not sure how to obtain it
23:58:36 <V453000> I have no clue which thing is actually causing the problem
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