IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-11-02
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02:02:42 <ST2> as said in channel topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask!
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02:13:38 <Jynxs> thanks ST2 for helping in game
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11:01:02 <Wolf01> Drawing chan stats graphs?
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13:59:21 <ElleKitty> *waves waves to everyone*
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14:54:11 <ElleKitty> *picks up supermop*
14:54:25 <ElleKitty> *mops around til it's once more clean. super clean.*
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14:55:23 <ElleKitty> *sets supermop aside again*
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15:01:00 <ElleKitty> supermop Oh, hello.
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16:05:27 <ElleKitty> Ethereal_Whisper Oh... Are you a pony?
16:06:08 * Ethereal_Whisper throws a snowball at ElleKitty
16:06:33 <ElleKitty> *has preemptively ducked; it's a miss*
16:07:45 <ElleKitty> *sticks tongue out at Ethereal_Whisper*
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16:53:47 <Ethereal_Whisper> I think my huge main station hub is a little overkill
17:04:12 <supermop> Ethereal_Whisper: looks like a circuit board
17:08:53 <Alberth> we're missing the option to turn the world upside down, so we can see the other side of the PCB :)
17:10:05 <goodger> psh, as if the universe runs on through-hole circuitry
17:12:04 <Alberth> maybe a black hole is a diode :)
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17:29:10 <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you see I fixed the merge?
17:31:46 <andythenorth> there is an edge case where reverting a merge makes it hard to get the commits back in later
17:31:57 <andythenorth> because they get -1 applied, basically, on the tree
17:32:11 <andythenorth> but that’s solvable, and I know it’s going to come up
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19:12:01 <frosch123> vvv instead of fff this week?
19:16:31 <V453000> I didn't say what kind of blog :P
19:21:50 <andythenorth> probably won’t last long before I get bored
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19:28:43 <Alberth> use maglev for everything :p
19:30:39 <Alberth> stacked bridge, train, good sun light, it only misses some steam
19:40:08 <andythenorth> horse needs cargo sprite generator
19:53:40 * andythenorth could poke at sprites tonight
19:53:43 <andythenorth> for an hour or so
19:53:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01 frosch123 ^
20:01:23 <andythenorth> is it fun playing on a bigger map?
20:01:42 <andythenorth> I am on 512x128, with high industry density
20:02:04 <andythenorth> this iron horse roster is designed to provoke long trains (narrow gauge, low capacity)
20:04:18 <andythenorth> big maps seem weird
20:04:23 <ElleKitty> I like to play on smaller maps when I'm alone (or my private servers). It's cozier, and I'm more motivated to use everything on the map, instead of just picking the best stuff, leaving 90% of the map untouched
20:04:40 <andythenorth> route building must be so boring
20:05:05 <V453000> 256x256 can accomodate a fuckload of trains already :>
20:06:06 <ElleKitty> I also do a low amount of towns. Just my preference. Because most of my towns end up unused anyway, and I dont like the industry to be TOO overcrowded either
20:06:34 <V453000> shitload to transport = shitload of trains
20:06:40 <ElleKitty> I cant remember, but I think that my current settings are... Low towns, Normal industries
20:07:20 <ElleKitty> V453000 I am kinda susceptible to overload. As in, too much of the good thing.
20:07:55 <ElleKitty> V453000 My Factorio production lines are equally cozy and unjammable... but I dont know how to scale up >.<
20:07:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah, I was playing a 1024x1024 game last week, got to over 1200 trains (TL 5) and my quad track ML was jamming like fuck
20:07:56 <andythenorth> looks like cheating
20:08:00 <andythenorth> where’s the challenge
20:08:03 <Ethereal_Whisper> I started a new one instead of fixing it lol
20:08:05 * andythenorth looks at a vast empty map
20:08:16 <andythenorth> but, these trains are very slow
20:08:23 <andythenorth> maybe it will take ages to make money
20:08:34 <ElleKitty> andythenorth Cheating, which one of us?
20:08:38 <Ethereal_Whisper> Now I'm playing a 2048x2048 game in which I started with a LLLRRR mainline from the start
20:08:49 <Alberth> that's a disadvantage of large maps, you need fast trains to make use of it
20:08:54 <Ethereal_Whisper> andythenorth, make planes if you don't want to worry about money :P
20:08:56 <V453000> Ethereal_Whisper: we had 8L_8R on 256x256
20:09:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> V453000, was that PZG2013?
20:09:16 <V453000> no, the last pro zone game
20:09:33 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, 2013 was a death feeder so the ML was an anticlockwise loop wasn't it?
20:09:57 <Ethereal_Whisper> I read your blog entry about it the other night
20:09:59 <Ethereal_Whisper> Good read :)
20:09:59 <V453000> was more of death than feeder
20:10:28 <Ethereal_Whisper> I figured out an all to all entry to a terminus station with my 3 incoming lanes
20:10:43 <V453000> that can get real fucked yes
20:10:44 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's slow and has some blocks but it's about the best I can do without terraforming half the map
20:11:09 <V453000> I think I did 4 line terminus once, decided to never do it again
20:11:14 <V453000> but maybe it was not a terminus
20:11:29 <andythenorth> I prefer fast trains on a small map, they clear sections faster
20:11:30 <V453000> ... I probably did it again, too
20:11:37 <andythenorth> on a big map, they have line to themselves
20:11:47 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, as a main pickup station, I figure I can kinda screw over the entry, give it more trains than strictly necessary (with overflows on the entry lanes to not block the MSL) as a solution, so long as it has quick exits
20:11:56 * andythenorth tries big map, see if game lasts 30 years :P
20:11:59 <andythenorth> last one lasted 1 year
20:12:30 <Ethereal_Whisper> That's my philosophy on main stations. Drop station = fast entry, long exits to not block platforms behind them, but the exit can be slow-ish
20:12:39 <Ethereal_Whisper> Main pickup station = entry can be slow, quick exits
20:12:54 <andythenorth> ach, I reverted my tropic map patch
20:13:02 <andythenorth> so I have 512x512 of flat desert
20:13:09 <andythenorth> tropic map gen is offensive :P
20:13:35 <V453000> SmatZ made me a version of OpenTTD which uses arctic gen in tropic
20:13:38 <V453000> it's old as fuck though
20:14:13 <andythenorth> I patched mine to use temperate
20:14:20 <Ethereal_Whisper> Likewise on sidelines, if there are any shenanigans about getting back on the sideline's main double track, they can take a convoluted route to enter the station for all I care, as long as they make it back onto the SL after exiting quickly
20:15:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> I really don't care what empty trains do as long as they aren't blocking full trains
20:15:20 <Ethereal_Whisper> They can go on a dumb loop around the industry to get back into the station
20:15:32 <V453000> use refit, don't have empty trains :>
20:16:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> One exception to that is at main stations, I'll have the empty trains going back to the primary pickups have right of way over the full trains coming out of the main station
20:16:44 <Ethereal_Whisper> Otherwise I could create a jam where the empty trains can't leave the drop station, therefore no cargo is being produced, then the pickup station jams, then it's a clusterfuck
20:17:36 <V453000> meh, can be solved by overflows or ... refit :P
20:18:45 <andythenorth> map gen keeps building port industries in small closed seas
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20:19:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wait I'm using slugs this game and CL doesn't matter
20:22:16 <andythenorth> someone told me that this water industry thing can be solved
20:22:18 <andythenorth> was it Eddi|zuHause ?
20:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i possibly said something...
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20:25:24 <Alberth> firs and dying industries?
20:25:54 <V453000> primaries should fuck off if you shit on them for long enough
20:26:20 <andythenorth> ach, might have to make my own map :(
20:26:25 <andythenorth> that’s absolutely awful
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21:17:39 <andythenorth> and if I get supplies, it will be TL20
21:18:08 <Alberth> map is also 2-3 times as large?
21:19:23 <Alberth> must be boring to drive that ore train
21:19:51 <Ethereal_Whisper> If you ever get into hills/curves, probably not
21:19:51 <andythenorth> unless you stack it up
21:19:57 <andythenorth> then it gets very interesting
21:19:59 <Ethereal_Whisper> More axles = more crap that can go wrong
21:20:20 * andythenorth builds train line across 400 tiles
21:20:30 <andythenorth> usual is 32 tiles or so :P
21:21:27 <andythenorth> mine are single track
21:21:31 <andythenorth> with passing loops
21:21:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> Sextuple track ftw
21:25:55 * andythenorth built a double track
21:29:34 <andythenorth> will it go slow? :P
21:29:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> It'll slow to a crawl going uphill and accelerate very poorly
21:30:02 <Ethereal_Whisper> Depending on the tractive effort of the loco
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21:30:51 <Ethereal_Whisper> I just built a really dumb station
21:30:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> It works, but it's dumb
21:31:36 <Ethereal_Whisper> One platform exits terminal-style (same direction it entered) and the other platform exits RoRo style
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21:36:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> Cargo payment rates in this climate kinda suck
21:39:10 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm using the "in a hot country" setting
21:39:47 <Ethereal_Whisper> Granted, I think the cargos I started building my network around (maize, cassava, fruit, nuts, food) are all time-sensitive so there's a sweet spot of time in transit to maximize the cargo payment rate
21:39:49 <supermop> less $ encourages you to build less infrastructure?
21:40:04 <supermop> maybe andy planned it as a feature
21:40:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, I have $395 million after 35 years
21:41:06 <supermop> andythenorth: add corruption to IAHC
21:41:13 <Ethereal_Whisper> Of course, like any other game I started off by building airports on opposite sides of the map, running a plane between them with the highest passenger capacity available, and planning out my network while the game was running
21:41:29 <supermop> so Ethereal_Whisper has to use all their money paying off officials
21:41:42 <Ethereal_Whisper> I think I generated about $10 million in aircraft revenue before I even selected which industry to build my first drop station to serve
21:41:43 <andythenorth> I am playing same economy
21:41:49 <andythenorth> I don’t pay that much attention to payment rates
21:42:08 <andythenorth> just try and make them so the chart looks about right
21:42:12 <supermop> translate string so it is "taxes" in one economy, "graft" in another
21:42:35 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, food is a time-sensitive cargo I'd imagine with the payment rates
21:43:01 <supermop> maybe taxes and bribes have interesting differences in the way they scale
21:43:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> So I had a 4-tile train (which translates to 6 wagons since it's a dual-headed loco) just deliver a load of food from literally one corner of the map almost all the way to the other, and it paid $142k
21:43:26 <Ethereal_Whisper> On a 2048x2048 map
21:43:36 <supermop> probaably all the food spoiled
21:43:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> In contrast I've played on 512x512 maps where a metal train going from one corner to the other, 5 tiles long, earned about $750k per drop
21:44:03 <supermop> same train on a 256x256 map pays more i bet
21:44:15 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm even in 2085 so inflation is a thing
21:44:38 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, except for the very early part of the game, money's never an issue in OpenTTD
21:44:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> The challenge (and fun) to me is to build flowing cargo networks
21:45:13 <supermop> by design it only 'works' for original industries, original map size, original game era, and original vehicles
21:45:47 <supermop> but it primarily works by effectively reducing cargo payment rates over time
21:46:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> Good, fast cargo flow is ultimately more profitable anyway, but if I were on the board for a transit company in real life who said "let's widen our double track mainline to quadruple track because we'll eventually make more money" they'd tell me to fuck off
21:46:24 <supermop> so the same trainload at the same speed pays less in 2050 than in 1950
21:46:41 <supermop> less in real costs, more in nominal dollars
21:47:12 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'd imagine that's because you're expected to deliver it faster
21:47:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> Compared to the base game, using the train set I'm using (mostly so I could use a type of train that goes full speed through even a curve length of 1), I'm using 131mph trains in 2085
21:48:16 <Ethereal_Whisper> If this were vanilla they'd be expecting me to use 300mph or 400mph trains (Lev3 or Lev4)
21:48:34 <supermop> and they would expect you to stop playing in 2050
21:48:39 <Ethereal_Whisper> I don't really like the Lev4 though, I'll use the Lev3 if I'm playing late-game vanilla
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21:49:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> With the Lev4's poor acceleration, if I don't want to jam my backbone I have to give very long priorities, which ends up jamming my side lines instead
21:50:27 <supermop> 'real' inflation has some interesting motivational effects though, even without the inescapable penalties of TT inflation
21:50:28 * andythenorth has 35mph trains on 400 tile long routes
21:51:03 <supermop> in that economist mainly see inflation as a tool to encourage spending and investment in by discouraging sitting on piles of cash
21:51:11 <Ethereal_Whisper> I need to find a copper refinery to start delivering to
21:51:40 <andythenorth> Ethereal_Whisper: deliver it to mine?
21:51:42 <supermop> hence why bank of japan has been desperately trying to weaken the yen to reach 2% inflation for 6 years now
21:51:46 <andythenorth> mine needs more copper
21:52:24 <andythenorth> what changed in station loading?
21:52:30 <supermop> Japanese economy is slow because people and companies have plenty of money and just save it
21:52:35 <andythenorth> now a train arrives with a refit order
21:52:55 <andythenorth> it used to not do that
21:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's a symptom, not a cause
21:53:30 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: kind of both, in a circle
21:53:53 <andythenorth> am I just seeing coincidence, or did someone fix it?
21:54:42 <supermop> also weak yen helps exports too of course, but Japan has a problem with lack of domestic consumer and corporate spending despite significant wealth and stability
21:55:20 <andythenorth> maybe it’s coincidence
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21:56:00 <supermop> and has the problem that foreign investors buy the yen as a safe haven, which keeps propping up it's value
22:00:44 <supermop> but i mean that would still provide some incentive in the game - you have $100M in 1950? Great, better spend it now because $100M in 1980 barely buys you anything
22:01:06 <supermop> even if costs and revenue grow somewhat proportionally
22:02:06 <supermop> and maybe the actual rate fluctuates according to the smooth economy setting
22:02:48 <supermop> because if there is a global recession, train driver salaries probably stay flat
22:03:25 <Alberth> they never strike anyway :p
22:04:24 <supermop> Alberth: also because you built such a great network, now they can commute from a distant small town instead of having to rent an expensive apartment in the city too
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22:06:30 <Ethereal_Whisper> I grew up in suburbia, but the metro area I grew up in had shit for transport
22:07:14 <Ethereal_Whisper> Our definition of transport was shitty freeways that were always jammed unless you drove on them at 3 a.m.
22:07:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> Anyway, I need to go cut some firewood
22:07:29 <supermop> Ethereal_Whisper: they have a new train now though, right?
22:08:15 <supermop> andythenorth: baux and chem from bulk terminal is boring in big economy
22:08:41 <supermop> 1 train from terminal to alu plant and you've got full production right away
22:08:55 <supermop> unless that is intended for bootstrapping
22:08:58 <andythenorth> didn’t think of that
22:09:04 <andythenorth> needed more bauxite
22:09:05 <supermop> bc thats how i start every game now
22:09:07 <andythenorth> needed more chemicals
22:09:16 <andythenorth> big economy is screwed every which way
22:09:23 <andythenorth> play it with BusyBee, or don’t play it :)
22:10:02 <supermop> play it for passengers and treat the industries as incidental decoration
22:10:15 <supermop> slash town growth tools
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22:18:56 <supermop> saw a great book for you the other day andythenorth
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22:22:09 <supermop> its a stunningly beautiful book
22:22:33 <supermop> but also has interesting documentation of very old lime kilns
22:25:05 <andythenorth> but loops were TL18
22:36:21 <andythenorth> “primary (refit) -> secondary (refit) -> dropoff somehwere near primary” is crap on long routes
22:36:29 <andythenorth> station rating is so low at secondary
22:38:53 <supermop> need something timetables to be waiting there whenever train isnt
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22:39:50 <supermop> can i generate more rivers?
22:40:00 <andythenorth> or that FIRS station rating hack
22:40:12 <andythenorth> it was made for these long routes with slow trains :P
22:40:14 <supermop> this isn't enough and dont want to manually draw them in
22:40:42 <andythenorth> no you can’t generate more rivers :)
22:41:07 <supermop> i will just have to cry them
22:41:14 <argoneus> good evening train friends
22:42:44 <andythenorth> is salt valid on a salad?
22:45:34 <supermop> hmm i've done on an arugula salad
22:45:40 <supermop> thats rocket for you
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22:49:38 <supermop> takes forever to correct hydrologically unsound rivers and valleys
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