IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-22
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02:30:17 <Ethereal_Whisper> This is one of the stranger networks I've ever built
02:30:19 <Ethereal_Whisper> Lots of clutter
02:30:31 <Ethereal_Whisper> Playing on a 128x128 map with only one of each industry type (FIRS basic)
02:31:00 <Ethereal_Whisper> Just trying to link them all and keeping lines relatively separate... some are only single track, one-train lines, which feels weird to build but there's no point in making double track for it
02:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the optimal for short distances is to double track only the loading station, then have one train moving while the other one loads
02:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that way the rating doesn't drop while the train is on the way
02:35:46 <Ethereal_Whisper> Hm I'll do that
02:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> adjust the length of the train so that it'll be done loading at the same time the other train returns
02:36:50 <Ethereal_Whisper> With that tiny of a distance, my TL would probably just be 1
02:37:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, could use trucks :p
02:37:31 <Ethereal_Whisper> That's no fun :P
02:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> your income will be low if the vehicles load too long
02:37:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> I just made them crash whoops
02:38:01 <Ethereal_Whisper> Guess I'm rebuilding those short lines
02:38:24 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, I cloned the wrong train
02:38:31 <Ethereal_Whisper> I put 3 scrap metal trains and 1 coal train
02:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of a small map is that you can really fine tune and micromanage the vehicles
02:40:48 <Ethereal_Whisper> I figured it out :)
03:01:27 <supermop> those are pretty short trains
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04:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have left some room in platform length for expansion, once the production ramps up from supplies
06:22:45 <Ethereal_Whisper> Eddi|zuHause, I ended up just starting a new game instead lol
06:22:54 <Ethereal_Whisper> Playing a different game with a friend at the moment though
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09:09:00 <andythenorth_> oftc let me back on \o/
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11:32:53 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm playing a "blitz" type game
11:33:06 <Ethereal_Whisper> I put high density industries on a small map and am playing with a TL of 2
11:33:12 <Ethereal_Whisper> 150 trains in 1960, haha
11:33:51 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oooh I just noticed some unsignalled track haha
11:36:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> I still like my "fork station" invention
11:37:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> Though I'm probably not the first person to come up with it
11:39:50 <V453000> can't tell until we see it :)
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11:40:20 <Ethereal_Whisper> The main line "forks" around the station
11:40:46 <Ethereal_Whisper> In effect it's a very short side line (waiting bay for 1 train, 2 platforms, I use it for primary industry pickup stations) that's kind of an
11:40:51 <Wolf01> I usually I do it the other way, the station is split around the main line
11:40:52 <Ethereal_Whisper> island between the ML tracks
11:41:01 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh now there's a thought
11:41:54 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wait, how would returning empty trains be able to choose between both available platforms then?
11:42:48 <Wolf01> Some diamond crosses before the entrances
11:43:05 <Ethereal_Whisper> Can you show me what you mean?
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11:48:40 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, but then the empty trains cross the main line coming the other way =/
11:56:47 <Ethereal_Whisper> BURN THE WITCH
12:13:40 <Ethereal_Whisper> Not even my busiest corridor lol
12:20:51 <Flygon> I was about to ask why your trains are going in reverse
12:21:00 <Flygon> Then I remembered that not everyone drives on the left
13:12:03 <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
13:14:30 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:14:59 <Sova> between which values? :)
13:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> something between 3 and 15, mostly
13:15:54 <Sova> how do you handle industries which have high production values
13:16:01 <Sova> like around 1k per month
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13:19:58 <Sova> thing is it seems to me that in this case I'd have to create huge stations
13:20:50 <Sova> and usually there is not enough space
13:21:20 <Sova> how many lanes does your typical station have for lets say a production of 1k per month?
13:22:05 <V453000> also, isn't building a big network a good thing to do in the game? :)
13:22:12 <V453000> 1k mine won't need more than 1 track
13:22:25 <Sova> a station with only one track?
13:22:27 <V453000> station should be fine with 2 platforms for a long time
13:22:37 <V453000> 2nd one mainly for keeping a train load at all time
13:22:52 <V453000> 4 platforms if you really want to make sure
13:23:06 <V453000> you just need to have the stream of trains constant enough, or provide overflows etc
13:23:08 <Sova> hmmm interesting, looks like I always overkill it then
13:23:34 <V453000> well depends on trains obviously
13:23:43 <V453000> if you have 1900s trains it probably doesn't get so simple
13:24:08 <Sova> well yeah, I like to start at 1920 but things pickup nicely later on
13:24:25 <Sova> I like that sense of progression :)
13:25:02 <V453000> sure, but at 1920 the mine probably won't produce that much :)
13:25:34 <Sova> well in some cases, specially in FIRS things can get pretty hectic early with supplies
13:25:55 <Sova> if you send them over to mines
13:26:04 <V453000> yeah, to some degree, sure
13:26:14 <V453000> it's certainly faster growth than vanilla
13:26:30 <Sova> vanilla is just nuts later on though
13:26:49 <V453000> I personally find it very tetris like ... it's a scenario you can't win with reasonable network
13:27:02 <V453000> which is to some degree interesting
13:27:13 <V453000> but I like to load the Smaller Mines grf to reduce it
13:27:22 <V453000> so that you build a huge network with shitload of mines
13:27:24 <V453000> instead of just a few
13:27:41 <Sova> didn't even know that this grf existed
13:27:46 <Sova> I'll have to look into it
13:27:57 <V453000> it's really simple but really nice
13:28:09 <V453000> one of the newer newgrfs ... Sylf wrote it :)
13:28:47 <Sova> great, I'll definately look into it
13:29:19 <Sova> I'm guessing this will work with default industries only?
13:30:34 <V453000> I wouldn't expect it to work with opengfx+ industries
14:03:40 <Sova> Let's say I have 2 mainlines that need to merge. How do you guys prio this? Just add block signals and call it a day?
14:04:36 <Wolf01> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with? <- 5-10
14:07:01 <Wolf01> Oh, totally random, but usually on long distance pax
14:10:11 <V453000> Sova: don't treat the priority like "this track is better than the other", but as a checking mechanism "is this track full, should I let trains join this track?"
14:14:20 <V453000> so if you have a Side Line -> main line junction, it's simple. You pick from the main lines, give the side line all posisble choices. and prioritize ML. Simple.
14:14:32 <V453000> with ML x ML, you just give priority to lines which don't have choices
14:14:40 <V453000> OR you give all lines choices and you don't need any priorities
14:14:57 <V453000> because the choice is made by some places clogging up and forcing trains elsewhere
14:15:03 <V453000> since they ahve the options
14:17:23 <V453000> in fact you can array those mergers infinitely to get the amount of lines you want XD but it's generally not convenient
14:19:25 <Sova> If I'm correct, in the above picture we have only 2 lines that have a choice?
14:19:50 <Sova> and thusly they also have prio
14:19:51 <V453000> 2 have a choice and they merge onto the other ones
14:19:58 <Sova> oh now other wawy around
14:20:06 <Sova> the ones that don't have choice
14:20:17 <V453000> because they can't divert traffic anywhere
14:20:25 <V453000> they don't detect which line is full or empty
14:20:32 <Sova> is it better to always provide choice for everything?
14:20:38 <V453000> trains from inside check which line is full(er), and go to the emptier one
14:21:00 <V453000> eh, it's an option and it's easier to keep track of it later in the game, but it's not necessary
14:22:47 <V453000> but it is a big space saver if you declare some lines to be non-choice
14:22:55 <V453000> for example if you have 4+4->6
14:22:59 <V453000> you make 6 tracks no choice
14:23:06 <V453000> and only make 2 choose from all the 6
14:23:16 <V453000> so the resulting merger is actually pretty small
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14:32:47 <V453000> the thing is that you don't just build things and leave them alone, you usually expand a lot
14:33:10 <V453000> which is why making all to all-ish is handy
14:33:33 <Flygon> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
14:33:47 <Flygon> <Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
14:34:18 <V453000> congratulations you managed to click 96 times in depot
14:34:36 <V453000> tracks don't even know how to signal, gg
14:34:54 <Sova> signals each 50 tiles :)
14:35:24 <Wolf01> I don't place many signals too
14:35:34 <Sova> no but really how does this work?
14:35:34 <Flygon> V453000: The map had only one refinery
14:35:58 <Flygon> So it actually became efficient to make smaller 7-20 tile long trains feed the 48 tile long monsters
14:36:08 <Flygon> It would've been 64 tiles, but I physically ran out of space
14:36:49 <Flygon> It does justify the Big Boy in the 2CC set
14:36:59 <Flygon> In low-speed operations, no-less
14:38:27 <Sova> I don't really play 2cc as there are too many trains in that set for my taste and I use maybe 10% of them if even that many
14:40:10 <Flygon> xP It depends on the era
14:40:18 <Flygon> Pre-1900,I find I use almost all of them
14:40:31 <Flygon> 1920-1990... a lot simply aren't useful
14:40:46 <Flygon> Usually because the company is so big, it's not worth faffing over the cost/benefit ratios of individual locos
14:41:00 <Flygon> And it's easier to just standardize on specific models
14:41:05 <V453000> there is always one locomotive which is ultimately best
14:41:40 <Flygon> Like, the Big Boy in the screenshot was an unusual case where I couldn't use a standard loco
14:42:08 <Flygon> A standard loco would've needed around 5-7 of them, cost more, run slower, and be a pita to autoreplace
14:42:34 <Sova> Couldn't you have used smaller trains? Only much more of them? :)
14:42:34 <Flygon> iirc, I eventually obsoleted the Big Boys in the 1970s with electric locos (once they caught up). Nothing else in the set had the TE required.
14:42:55 <Flygon> 2. It's too fussy to run
14:43:00 <Flygon> 3. Big Boys were cheaper
14:43:10 <Flygon> Because there was just one loco for such a massive load
14:43:23 <Flygon> And it made designing terminals easier
14:44:04 <V453000> cheaper is usually irrelevant considering the amount of money you have, and the ultra simple method how you make money in this game
14:44:18 <V453000> not as cool is great, but you need at least some reasonable reasons
14:44:54 <V453000> but yeah, bla bla, nuts, blabla, choices, blabla, gameplay
14:45:22 <Flygon> xP It WAS a reasonably reason!
14:45:32 <Flygon> It made the game eaiser to play :)
14:46:52 <Flygon> Tried to find more screenshots in my Dropbox
14:47:16 <Sova> not sure what to think of that :)
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15:12:28 <Samu> those horizontal and vertical routes for aircraft
15:13:04 <Samu> do aircraft get better profits if the routes are horizontal/vertical aligned, instead of diagonal?
15:13:18 <Samu> seems fishy, i got to test this
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15:27:31 <Samu> going from coordinates 993x20 to 993x220 (200 tiles distance) takes more time than going from coordinates 801x174 to 901x274 (200 tiles distance), using aircraft
15:27:54 <Samu> travel time 61 days vs 50 day
15:29:13 <Samu> on the way back, travel time was 65 days vs 49 days
15:29:39 <Samu> it's confirmed then, horizontal/vertical aligned aircraft routes profit more
15:29:48 <Samu> because they travel faster
15:32:15 <Samu> should I report this finding as a bug, or is it known/intended?
15:43:50 <_dp_> how is 60 days faster than 50?
15:45:49 <Samu> £29,269 for the 60 days aircraft vs £35,753 for the 50 days aircraft
15:46:36 <_dp_> so what is better? diagonals? that's expected
15:47:36 <_dp_> you said vertical is 60 days (993x20 to 993x220)
15:47:36 <Samu> that's nocab ai, he removes the less profitable routes from time to time, and i noticed the majority of routes he kept are vertical/horizontal
15:48:33 <_dp_> ah, you call it backwards, vertical on map is diagonal on tiles
15:49:07 <_dp_> yeah, that's pretty well-known, diagonal trains are better too
15:50:03 <_dp_> there is no fair solution because rv can't go diagonal
15:50:21 <Wolf01> That's because of TT timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly calculation of 2.5D proportions
15:50:46 <_dp_> so cargo is paid for manhattan distance instead of some else
15:53:32 <Samu> slow down vehicles when they're going vertically/horizontally?
15:53:53 <Samu> even if it impacts road vehicles, it should be minimal
15:57:16 <_dp_> and diagonal track are harder to build so it kinda balances it
15:57:30 <Samu> not for aircraft, they don't seem to care
15:58:09 <Samu> maybe the profit formula could be adjusted
15:58:11 <_dp_> aircrafts are broken anyway :p
15:59:42 <Samu> have the income formula take into account some sort of penalty for traveling vertically? hmm
16:00:23 <_dp_> Samu, you need to remember how each cargo was transported then
16:01:54 <_dp_> hm, may not be that hard though as it only needs to remember amount of diagonal and total tiles...
16:04:57 <_dp_> if based on diagonal/total ratio may be reasonably fair, at least I don'see any problem yet
16:07:12 <Samu> a penalty for each type of vehicle on the income formula?
16:07:59 <Samu> i dunno just giving out ideas
16:08:28 <_dp_> Samu, and what to do with transfers7
16:10:30 <_dp_> if rvs are paid more you just do transfer carousel after diagonal train unload
16:12:47 <Samu> i was thinking, if the train transfers it into a lorry station, have that penalty already applied
16:13:18 <Samu> a->b->c, a->b is train, apply train penalty when the cargo arrives at b
16:13:40 <Samu> b->c take the already penalized cargo then apply anothr penalty for road vehicle
16:15:12 <_dp_> Samu, payments are only calculated when cargo is accepted by consumer, transfer payments are purely virtual
16:15:40 <Samu> oh, then i don't know :(
16:18:16 <supermop_> i don't think it is unfair - every player faces the same situation
16:20:00 <supermop_> same as how if you want to build a route at a roughly 2:1 angle - you are better to build it in large staggered steps rather than steps shorter than train length - even though the latter 'looks' like its a smoother, more direct route
16:21:05 <supermop_> also a turn can be 'sharp' for a long train, but the same turn will have no speed penalty if the train is a bit shorter
16:21:56 <Samu> slowing down vehicles on vertical/horizontal tiles was my first idea, but you say it is affecting wagons
16:22:02 <supermop_> it is just the strange physics of the universe where TT exists
16:26:18 <Samu> let's say the penalty is 25%, a train going at 100 km/h won't really have all of his wagons on the vertical/horizontal tracks
16:27:13 <Samu> if the size of each carriage/engine is 0.5 and the train is sized 6.0
16:27:52 <Samu> penalty is based on the number of wagons that are currently on a vertical/horizontal track
16:28:23 <Samu> not always 25% then, but... varied, up to a max of 25% when all wagons are in fact in vertical/horizontal
16:28:56 <Samu> how to get the final result, i just dont know :(
16:31:16 <Samu> each wagon/engine sized 0,5 that enters a vertical/horizontal track slows down the whole train by 2,0833%
16:32:21 <Samu> 100 km/h > 98 km/h > 96 km/h > etc... > 75 km/h
16:33:00 <Samu> if one of the engines/wagon that was going vertically/horizontally suddenly goes diagonal, then up the speed by that same %
16:33:11 <Samu> instantly, no acceleration
16:34:16 <Samu> so in essence, the goal is to achieve parity with pure diagonal travelling days
16:34:41 <Samu> turn 50 days into 60 days travel time
16:34:48 <Samu> dunno how much of a penalty that is
16:40:17 <Samu> the speed is applied to the entire train, not individually
16:40:30 <Samu> would that avoid the overlapping issue?
16:40:59 <Wolf01> But I expect a train travelling always at the same speed on a straight track
16:42:23 <Samu> it would still display 100 km/h, but wouldn't really be going at 100 km/h
16:43:55 <Samu> how noticeable would that be for the player obvserving? i don't really know
16:45:18 <Samu> probably noticeable on very short trains, but not so much on long trains
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17:06:22 <Samu> i'm trying that patch there, see what exactly happens
17:27:55 <Alberth> you can just see it in the game
17:28:26 <Alberth> compare length of the diagonal wagon vs the non-diagonal length
17:28:42 <Alberth> NUTS shows it very clearly
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17:42:30 <andythenorth_> Composited vehicles :o
17:42:49 <andythenorth_> All my pixa work is for nothing :p
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17:51:15 <andythenorth_> Unstable connection is unstable
17:53:07 <Samu> has there been a patch about speed penalty?
17:54:19 <Samu> penalize current vehicle speed when they're on + tracks?
17:55:30 <Samu> why do you say diagonal?
17:55:42 <andythenorth_> 'Buy menu contains too many vehicles' <- overstated problem?
17:56:04 <Alberth> for fish/squid? definitely
17:56:15 * andythenorth_ seeking schema / theme for ships
17:56:52 <Alberth> well, compared to default ships, it is large :p
17:57:03 <andythenorth_> for RVs, finding right 'shape' for set took many iterations
17:57:04 <Samu> and i dunno what the penalty should be, how to calculate it
17:57:08 <Alberth> or rather, default ships is ridiculously small :p
17:58:08 <andythenorth_> 'Limited vehicles' works for trains where player can arrange consist as needed
17:58:29 <andythenorth_> Works for airplanes fine, due to limited application
17:58:45 <andythenorth_> RVs, not so much
17:59:06 <andythenorth_> Ships, I'm not sure small buy menu works at all
17:59:44 <Samu> "the speed of a train on a diagonal is about 0.707v horizontal and vertical where v is its nominal speed when travelling orthogonally." is this official?
18:00:17 <Alberth> it is in the real world, due to geometry
18:00:32 <Samu> dont care about real world
18:00:40 <Alberth> based on distance of two opposite corner
18:01:07 <andythenorth_> Is that 0.5 * root 2?
18:02:18 <Alberth> too long buy menu for your road hog with all cargoes?
18:03:03 <andythenorth_> Assuming you only look at depot buy menu, not 'available vehicles'
18:03:16 <andythenorth_> Due to tram/street split
18:04:34 * andythenorth_ inclined to supply a lot of smaller ship sizes, and only a few large sizes
18:05:47 <Samu> i'm gonna base myself on travel time and try to calculate the penalty
18:05:59 <andythenorth_> 30 pax vs 90 pax might be a useful option, but 450 or 600 are both about same
18:06:22 <andythenorth_> precision matters less with routes that need larger vehicles?
18:07:58 * andythenorth_ wonders about watertypes :p
18:10:34 <Alberth> we have that, right? :)
18:11:14 <andythenorth_> in a slightly useless way yes :)
18:11:18 <Alberth> I agree with "more and less precise"
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18:11:51 <Alberth> basically you add sufficient to fill required transport capacity
18:12:06 <andythenorth_> Canal vs sea is amongst the least useful newgrf ideas :)
18:12:22 <Alberth> where the main benefit of a large ship is reduced running cost, probably
18:12:48 <andythenorth_> I think the main benefit of larger ships is eye candy
18:13:02 <andythenorth_> Same as long trains, they're nice to watch
18:13:44 <Alberth> I am just too busy with cargo flow :p
18:14:48 <Alberth> what other water types are you considering?
18:15:10 <andythenorth_> I have never discovered any tbh
18:15:30 <andythenorth_> Sea vs canal isn't types really
18:15:36 <Alberth> ha, a single water type "water" thus :p
18:15:40 <andythenorth_> Just makes slow vehicles slower
18:16:08 <Alberth> it could force a transfer point
18:16:17 <andythenorth_> sea ships can't be prevented from canals or vice versa, so it's not interesting currently
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18:16:59 <Alberth> 1km/h for a sea ship at a canal is quiteeffective :p
18:17:06 <andythenorth_> Different docks would force it
18:17:12 <Wolf01> Going out for dinner. Bye
18:17:19 <andythenorth_> Crippling the speed is just irritating :)
18:17:40 <andythenorth_> Ban sea ships from locks?
18:17:48 <andythenorth_> Probably an easy patch
18:18:42 <andythenorth_> Watertypes discussion has never so far produced worthwhile idea :D
18:18:58 <andythenorth_> yeah, I have nothing
18:19:57 <Alberth> main achievement would be another flag expressing realism :p
18:20:39 <Alberth> yeah, not going anywhere today with water types :)
18:21:06 <andythenorth_> Docks get n units of ship capacity?
18:21:15 <andythenorth_> Each ship takes x units?
18:21:53 <Alberth> so limit capacity of a dock?
18:22:08 <Alberth> or is n and x constant?
18:22:25 <Alberth> which basically bans some ships
18:22:27 <Samu> loading capacity of a dock
18:22:36 <andythenorth_> X constant per ship type
18:23:02 <Samu> load x units of cargo per interval
18:23:32 <Alberth> no station does that currenrtly
18:23:55 <Samu> suppose there's 10 ships loading and suddenly 500 cargo appears at the dock
18:24:18 <Alberth> it makes more sense to make ships take room at a dock
18:24:23 <andythenorth_> Equivalent to drive-through RV stops handling of vehicle lenght
18:24:28 <Samu> instead of having all ships pick the cargo, have only 1 ship pick x per interval
18:24:45 <andythenorth_> Size = better ide
18:25:23 <Samu> 10 ships, each with 50 capacity
18:25:55 <andythenorth_> Alberth so a dock might load 3 small ships or one large one
18:26:16 <Samu> :( guess i'm talking about a different idea
18:26:26 <Alberth> but pretty soon you'll want multi-docks then
18:27:05 <Alberth> Samu: limiting load capacity is not in the game currently, it's a bit weird to add it to ship docks, and not to trains/RVs/Aircraft
18:27:51 <Alberth> the latter have limits due to size of the vehicle, or limited number of places for loading
18:28:13 <Alberth> so it makes more sense to add the latter kind of limit also to ship docks
18:28:36 <andythenorth_> Multi-docks is entailed in this idea :D
18:28:46 <andythenorth_> I snuck it in :p
18:29:10 <Alberth> I think it's the inevitable next question
18:29:33 <Alberth> if you limit capacity, you want more platforms
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18:30:55 <andythenorth_> Build docks in tiles like RV stops
18:30:59 <Alberth> currently you cannot have several docks with the same station afaik
18:31:07 <andythenorth_> One ship per water side
18:31:38 <andythenorth_> Large ships might need three or four tiles in a contiguous line
18:31:54 <Samu> loading capacity for stations seems like an interesting idea though
18:32:02 <andythenorth_> Probably tmwtflb
18:33:13 <Samu> i'm currently doing a test with road vehicles, and there's something odd with travel times
18:33:33 <Samu> north to south, on the same road in a zig-zag shape, took 126 days
18:33:39 <Samu> south to north, took 130 days
18:34:06 <Samu> is this a bug, am i missing something?
18:35:36 <Samu> going north takes more time than going south
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18:42:13 <supermop_> andythenorth_: choppy water vs smooth harbour?
18:42:34 <Samu> just tried with original acceleration model
18:42:45 <Samu> 130 days going south, 133 days going north
18:43:01 <Samu> the problem is in the track itself?
18:43:23 <supermop_> shallow submerged rocks and sandbars that only dingies can traverse
18:44:17 <Alberth> Samu: swap direction of the vehicles
18:44:33 <Alberth> if the track is the problem, you'll get the same result
18:44:50 <Alberth> if direction is the problem, you'll get different results
18:45:19 <Alberth> if both are a problem, I don't know :)
18:49:12 <Samu> i get a different, yet similar result
18:50:32 <Samu> going north now takes less time, the situation reversed
18:51:07 <V453000> frosch123: how does the sorting of layers for layered vehicles work? Can I for example have layers ABCD show as ABCD in one train view, and when reversed have the layering as ABDC ?
18:51:57 <frosch123> the grf defines the order
18:52:19 <frosch123> chaning the order is essentialy swapping lines in a switch
18:56:17 <V453000> but can I change that for the same vehicle, just different rotations?
18:56:30 <frosch123> there is a direction variable
18:56:45 <frosch123> first switch on "direction", then switch on "layer"
18:57:03 <V453000> just one essential thing I thought of :)
18:58:00 <frosch123> maybe semi-trailer rv can make use of that
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19:15:05 <Samu> i'm getting an approximate 66% slower or 50% faster
19:16:28 <Samu> if the distance is the same
19:16:55 <Samu> the train going diagonal is 66% slower than the train going vertical
19:17:17 <Samu> it travels at 66% of the speed of the other that is
19:18:21 <Samu> 296/443 = 0,6681715575620767
19:18:38 <Samu> 443/296 = 1,496621621621622
19:18:53 <V453000> frosch123: if you place 2 or more containers on a flatbed, you need container A be on top in 1 view, container B in the other
19:19:03 <V453000> I think it's super common to be necessary
19:20:28 <Samu> help me at math. if I want the train that took 296 days to travel to take 443 days instead, I multiply it by 0,66 or by 1.50?
19:21:40 <frosch123> is that a valid use case though?
19:21:47 <frosch123> you cannot change the position of the sprites
19:21:57 <Samu> let me try a max speed, it's nice that openttd has the option to limit speeds
19:22:02 <frosch123> so you need different sprites for the two containers
19:22:24 <frosch123> so, i would think loading stages are still complete sprites
19:22:35 <frosch123> and not an add-on to the previous loading stage
19:22:49 <frosch123> btw. i limit it currently to maximum 4 sprites per articulated part
19:22:58 <frosch123> just to prevent newgrfs from getting greedy :)
19:24:46 <Samu> awesome, i got it right!
19:25:22 <Samu> the penalty is bigger than i thought
19:26:58 <Samu> a train moving at 64 km/h needs to divide it by 1.50
19:27:09 <Samu> 43 km/h got it right where I wanted
19:27:19 <Samu> took 443 days at 43 km/h
19:30:08 <Samu> a train moving at 100 km/h would be moving at 66.67 km/h
19:30:30 <Samu> looks quite a sharp penalty
19:31:01 <Samu> but it achieves time travel parity
19:31:24 <planetmaker> 4 sprites are enough for everyone ;)
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19:37:07 <NGC3982> I'm having the worst issues with going back and forth between ottd and citites skylines
19:37:24 <frosch123> easy, just stay with ottd
19:37:33 <NGC3982> I'm always confused by the fact that wasd doesn't do anything. :-p
19:38:53 <Alkel_U3> worse - it does different stuff. And yeah, I deal with that, too, occasionaly :-)
19:39:42 <Alberth> Rebecca: it's ok to just talk :)
19:39:59 <Rebecca> Has anyone gotten OpenTTD to work with Native Client?
19:40:12 <NGC3982> This channel must be pro-skylines, i guess.
19:40:19 * Rebecca has a question tho ^ .....
19:40:23 <Alberth> euhm, what's a Native Client ?
19:40:56 <Rebecca> It's a way to run apps like OpenTTD on Chrome-based devices.
19:41:19 <Alkel_U3> NGC3982: kinda, but mostly Factorio :D
19:41:27 <Alberth> no idea, you're the first that I see mentioning it :)
19:41:51 <Rebecca> I found a few old logs of Hexxeh getting somewhere.
19:41:55 <Alkel_U3> oh, than I mistook it for some other channel elswhere
19:42:09 <Alberth> which is not promising in finding people that have it running :)
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19:42:29 <Alberth> you could post at tt-forums, to find other people, perhaps
19:42:33 * andythenorth_ needs to pin down some ship capacities
19:42:37 <Alberth> bigger audience than here
19:43:00 <Rebecca> ^ From there to the end of the page.
19:43:22 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Hexxeh was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Hexxeh> ah, thought the title screen stuff was music rather than sfx, that's okay
19:43:40 <Alberth> he didn't say much lately :)
19:44:38 <NGC3982> Alkel_U3: Factorio is nice. I have yet to complete the tutorial, tho.
19:44:51 <NGC3982> Is it "though" in english, and "tho" in american?
19:44:53 <frosch123> Rebecca: there is a javascript port of sdl and openttd via emscripten
19:46:46 <Rebecca> NGC3982, "though" == "tho"
19:47:15 <Rebecca> The one is a shortened version of the other.
19:47:17 <Alkel_U3> NGC3982: when you're finished with that (estimating 80 - 200 h), move onto Dwarf Fortress :P
19:47:42 <andythenorth_> For pax ships, seems that 30-40 pax is always a good entry point
19:47:47 <Rebecca> frosch123, SDL is ported to Native Client.
19:47:59 <Alkel_U3> hm, probably more if I take mods into account
19:48:37 <Rebecca> I had a few changes that I had to make for it to compile, though.
19:48:49 <Rebecca> *There were a few changes
19:49:25 <Samu> what is the equivalent track type for aircraft? is it like rails?
19:49:39 <Samu> where in the tile do they travel?
19:50:53 <andythenorth_> 30, 90, 180, 360, 720?
19:53:10 <Alberth> aircraft don't have tracks, they fly in one of 8 directions towards the next point
19:54:02 <Alberth> andythenorth_: alll multiples of 30 by design?
19:55:20 <Alberth> I'd just do 30 or so, like 30, 120, 720
19:56:37 <Alberth> unless you want a lot of different ships
19:56:45 <Samu> alberth, about the road vehicle travel time issue, i tried a max speed of 40 km/h for all different buses
19:56:53 <Alberth> frosch123: haha, yes indeed :)
19:56:58 <Samu> oops all different routes, not buses
19:57:04 <Samu> one route is a pure straight line
19:57:34 <Samu> the other is zig-zag, and the other is, instead of a zig-zag, it's 2 straight lines with only a curve
19:58:11 <Samu> they all got 141 days for travel time, except zig-zag direction south-north with drive on right
19:58:25 <Samu> I suppose the problem is there
19:58:40 <Samu> north-south got 141 days
20:00:03 <Alberth> maybe an off-by-one error?
20:00:19 <Alberth> although 6 days is a lot
20:00:40 <Samu> gah typo, north-south got 135 days, south-north got 141 days, my bad
20:01:12 <Alberth> how many corners does it have
20:02:54 <Samu> sec, i'll give u savegame
20:03:26 <Samu> ah no, distance is 200 tiles i think
20:03:53 <Alberth> use the '?' tool to query position of both end points
20:04:02 <andythenorth_> Alberth FISH has too many sizes, Squid maybe not enough
20:04:38 <V453000> frosch123: I wanted to do something wtf with 5 layers but I will humbly accept 4 :P
20:04:58 <Alberth> andythenorth_: doubling the previous size can be easily done with buying a second ship
20:05:13 <Samu> 901x274x1 station at south
20:05:22 <frosch123> V453000: it's an arbitrary limit
20:05:27 <Samu> 800x175x1 station at north
20:05:53 <Samu> i tried both at 801x174x1 and then 800x175x1, no difference
20:06:00 <Alberth> ah, so about 100 in each direction
20:06:18 <frosch123> ottd currently resolves all the sprites of the vehicles all the times, so i just want to prevent grfs going nuts with cpu power :p
20:07:25 <Alberth> Samu: I don't even try, that site uses a zillion other sites with all kinds of scripts
20:07:38 <Samu> oh ok,i post on the forum
20:07:57 <Alberth> but you gave the positions
20:08:32 <Alberth> I just wanted a sort of indication of the road length
20:08:50 <V453000> frosch123: I think 4 is fine, I wanted something really stupid
20:09:10 <V453000> 8 would be really awesome but 4 works for vast majority of cases probably
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20:10:34 <Alberth> there should be a difference between position 800 and 801, but you can't measure it by watching, probably
20:11:00 <Alberth> if 100 tiles is 6 days, 1 tile is 6/100 of a day
20:11:11 <Alberth> which is around 5 ticks
20:11:46 <Alberth> not something you can see very well
20:13:24 <Samu> i put 2 buses starting at the same time, one goes north, the other goes south, will see who arrives at the opposite station first
20:16:53 <Samu> north-south bus arrived first
20:17:06 <supermop_> but one way to make bigger ships more interesting would be multiple holds
20:17:29 <Alberth> yep, but that's an openttd engine limitation
20:17:31 <Samu> south-north bus is about 6 tiles away from reaching north station, it's really noticeable
20:18:09 <supermop_> currently if i can have 2x 300t ship or 1x600t, the 2x 300t has the flexibility of holding two cargoes, the 600t has no advantage
20:18:10 <Alberth> same cargo problem exists with aircraft, to a lesser extend
20:18:32 <Alberth> and Rvs to an even lessier extent :p
20:18:41 <supermop_> aircraft can sort of hack it with cargo in shadow
20:19:10 <supermop_> aircraft, the big plane has an advantage in landing pattern time
20:19:48 <Alberth> Samu: yep, you'd expect the same result, which thus indeed happens
20:20:26 <supermop_> one 300 seat plane has a set time to approach, land, and taxi,
20:20:42 <supermop_> 3x 100 seat planes have to do that same time per each
20:21:08 <supermop_> so there is a tradeoff in efficiency vs granularity
20:21:16 <Alberth> oh, better throughput, yes
20:21:43 <Alberth> not with ships, as they move completely independently
20:21:45 <supermop_> 3 100t ships can overlap the same tile if you want them to
20:22:12 <Samu> problem appears to be with only 1 of the directions, as per the other comparison
20:22:28 <supermop_> so more small ships gives you the increased granularity but no loss in efficiency (other than cpu cost of pathfinder)
20:22:30 <Samu> north - south is too fast, with drive on right
20:22:33 <Alberth> Samu: to answer that you need to know the cause dirst
20:23:24 <Samu> in the savegame i gave u, you can see the other buses got the same time of 141 in every direction, only exception was that one north-south with 135 days
20:23:36 <Samu> i guess that's where the problem is
20:23:47 <supermop_> if you have a good enough cpu, ideally you would have 1000s of little jet skis carrying 1t each
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20:24:48 <supermop_> ships are super easy to timetable too, so with small ships just keep adding more as demand increases
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20:27:55 <supermop_> also, if you want to always have one ship loading, easy way is to have one extra ship timetabled, waiting for the next to arrive. if i have a 120 day round trip, I could have one 300t ship every 30 days, and buy 5, with an extra 30 days wait and the loading dock
20:28:55 <supermop_> with 100t ships, i can have one every 10 days, so buy 13 with an extra 10 days wait
20:29:48 <supermop_> in the latter case I have all of the same advantages, but only 100t of slack capacity instead of 300t
20:30:31 <supermop_> and balancing with purchase or running cost alone is probably too boring or negligible to be worth it
20:31:10 <supermop_> as andy said, the only reason to use the big boat is that it looks cool
20:32:04 <Samu> haven't tested ships, but i expect the penalty is also current speed/1.5
20:33:02 <supermop_> which is a perfectly fair reason to be honest. I am fine with ships as is, but if andy wants ideas to make them more interesting, maybe that is where to explore
20:33:22 <Samu> brb creating a ship sceratio
20:36:04 <Alberth> andy is always improving things :)
20:37:43 <supermop_> Alberth: sometimes i think it might be best not to stir up extra ideas with him
20:38:18 <Alberth> not sure that helps, he seems to have sufficient ideas of his own :)
20:46:14 <Samu> well, same penalty for ships, 1,5
20:46:37 <Samu> aircraft is not easy to test :(
20:47:30 <Samu> how would I test them :(
20:48:30 <Samu> already tested road vehicles, trains and ships
20:48:36 <Samu> road vehicles need no penalty
20:48:50 <Samu> trains and ships will share the same penalty
20:49:05 <Samu> aircraft... i dunno, but it needs a penalty, which one I don't know how to calculate it
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20:51:04 <Samu> what is the airport type that has the least amount of running around
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20:56:02 <Samu> yeah seems heliport is good
21:00:11 <Samu> hmm.. different penalty for aircraft?
21:01:17 <Samu> i may need a longer route
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21:07:59 <Samu> 122-125 days range vs 180-181 days range
21:09:07 <Samu> seems like aircraft travel faster when going south? 3 days difference
21:09:32 <Samu> but it's not practical to test aircraft, can't seem to get a good value
21:09:47 <Samu> seems the penalty is around 1,44-1,48 range
21:10:37 <frosch123> SpComb: we have a new bot, can you send me the logs somehow?
21:13:36 <Rubidium> Samu: how did you calculate that?
21:14:30 <Rubidium> because if you count from departure to arrival, you have to account for the place in the holding pattern the plane gets
21:14:59 <Rubidium> and in some cases it basically means straight to landing and in other cases it means having to make almost a whole loop
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21:16:38 * andythenorth_ ponders sprite compositing
21:17:08 <andythenorth_> Frosch123 is there a mask layer? o_O
21:23:26 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
21:24:12 <andythenorth_> Frosch123 saw the picture ;)
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21:25:08 <KenjiE20> frosch123: try an @calc, might be just cause I am admin
21:26:07 <andythenorth_> Mask layer would AND the pixels below, usually it's a 1 bit image
21:26:26 <frosch123> andythenorth_: i guess just draw another layer over it
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21:26:38 <frosch123> vehicle underlay, cargo, vehicle overlay
21:27:06 <frosch123> just like tunnel in ottd
21:27:30 <andythenorth_> Actually there's no need for mask, I am daft :p
21:27:49 <andythenorth_> We already have blue to knock pixels out from bg
21:29:01 <frosch123> in 32bpp you can use the alpha channel to make a color gradient between 1cc and 2cc
21:29:03 <andythenorth_> Although I use masks for more than that in Hog
21:29:37 <frosch123> (will likely look stupid though :p)
21:30:01 <andythenorth_> I draw one layer for vehicle, then use mask to selectively copy some of it for overlay
21:32:36 <andythenorth_> Layered vehicles is a nice feature, but I might stick to pre-compositing :)
21:32:43 <Ethereal_Whisper> I just ordered a new contact lens. RIP my bank account balance.
21:33:21 <frosch123> get a pair at least
21:33:26 <supermop_> how expensive is this lens
21:33:47 <supermop_> frosch123: i guess they need to save up for the other lens
21:35:16 <frosch123> andythenorth_: think about cargo recoloring
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21:37:36 <andythenorth_> Frosch123 I know :)
21:38:28 <andythenorth_> it's a neat feature
21:41:14 <supermop_> V453000: why don't v ray materials have an inherent scale?
21:42:59 <V453000> idk it's usually defined by the UV mapping which tends to be different for each object
21:43:01 <supermop_> if i have a bricks material, why aren't the bricks always 200mm long
21:43:10 <supermop_> yeah that's bullshit
21:43:11 <V453000> well they can be in max at least I think
21:43:23 <V453000> in max you can have real world scale of maps iirc
21:43:27 <supermop_> i have to adjust mapping individually for each wall
21:43:41 <V453000> well in max you can select all walls and set 1 mapping
21:43:48 <supermop_> unless there is something im missing
21:44:05 <V453000> depends on your software
21:44:14 <V453000> for example default UVs for blender don't exist
21:44:25 <V453000> in max default UVs are 1 polygon = 1 UV space
21:44:41 <Samu> gonna try different distances now
21:44:58 <supermop_> my plaster has pixels about 1cm square on big walls, and looks like plaster on small walls
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21:47:54 <V453000> supermop_: where are you using vray? rhino?
21:48:10 <V453000> cause this shit is probably heavily dependent on your application
21:48:24 <V453000> so don't take my hints for sure
21:48:26 <supermop_> i asked IT guys for maxwell or flamingo bc ive never used vray
21:48:38 <Samu> 122-125 days for a 500 tiles distance, 237-240 days for a 1000 tiles distance
21:48:38 <supermop_> but they put vray on instead?
21:49:27 <supermop_> so i tried to have my intern set up the materials but i'm not really happy with them
21:49:44 <Samu> Rubidium: how do i calculate the days on the holding pattern you mentioned
21:49:54 <Samu> i'd like to exclude these days
21:50:32 <supermop_> so now i'm being forced, kicking and screaming, to learn this shit
21:54:50 <Samu> ah i see what's different
21:55:18 <Samu> the height at which the helicopter starts it's landing
21:55:52 <Samu> sometimes the height is short, and takes less time to land
21:56:29 <Samu> but it's still strange, i think the terrain height is equal everywhere i placed the heliports, much recheck
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21:57:23 <Samu> there's something i'm missing.
21:57:49 <Samu> the helicopters actually travel up/down some mountains, does that affect their current height?
21:58:19 <Samu> or does it even affect their speeds?
22:06:17 <NGC3982> No man's sky sure got shit when it opened
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22:17:15 <Samu> i finally found the issue
22:17:54 <Samu> it is confirmed, traversing through terrain height does increase the landing time
22:18:15 <Samu> not sure if it's intended behaviour, probably is
22:18:57 <Samu> i need to be wary of terrain height now
22:20:59 <Alberth> mountains give challenges even if you fly over them :)
22:21:58 <Samu> it affects only the landing time, not the speed
22:22:50 <Samu> the helicopter height increases when going up mountains, but does not decrease when going down mountains
22:23:25 <Samu> the higher the height, the longer it takes to land
22:23:45 <Samu> so, is it intended behaviour that it doesn't lower height?
22:24:20 <Alberth> at least it's not programmed that way :)
22:31:28 <_dp_> Wow, turns out destroying fountains and statues doesn't benefit town growth at all
22:35:21 <_dp_> ok, not with a good layout at least)
22:35:55 <_dp_> ST2, go check town emulator, I added option for removing that stuff
22:35:56 <ST2> something related with the number of buildings?
22:36:40 <Samu> penalty range between 143/100 = 1.43 to 146/97 = 1,50
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22:36:56 <_dp_> ST2, no, just seems that potential of it being replaced it straight up better that of getting a bigger house in its place
22:37:00 <ST2> saw it already (not with latest improvements)... and been last weekend offline - Saber made the work and posted it on our forum ;)
22:37:23 <Samu> I'm unsure if 1,50 is a good penalty for aircraft
22:37:47 <Samu> 1,50 seems to be the right value for ships and trains though
22:37:48 <_dp_> ST2, and I even replied in that thread ;) It's a new feature, added it few minutes ago
22:42:23 <Samu> woah, i can't set a speed limit for aircraft t.t
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