IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-06
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00:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> my grandma had a pen with the wuppertal monorail built in
00:10:20 <supermop> unfortunately this one is alweg style Eddi|zuHause
00:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also not called monorail, but "Schwebebahn" [levitating rail]
00:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> although it technically does not levitate, it kinda looks like it does.
00:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> at least to the people a century ago
00:13:56 <Wolf01> indeed there is nothing under it, it levitates!
00:23:08 <Samu> now, i tried to solve this bug, but i don't know how to fix
00:24:22 <Samu> it's more than simply changing the button from disabled to enabled
00:24:34 <Samu> the list really is empty, erroneously
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02:44:38 <Samu> can't access tt-forums.net :(
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03:19:13 <Flygon> I've learned a deep lesson today
03:19:31 <Flygon> Unlike IRL, you really REALLY need to plan transport planning well in OpenTTD :U
03:19:45 <Flygon> Struggling to build new transport interchange in inner urban area :U
03:38:07 <Samu> can't believe I pulled it off
03:38:26 <Samu> but i'm still not quite sure about left to right text stuff
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09:06:37 <Flygon> Are there any Ship sets with new ships introduced after 1985?
09:11:06 <Flygon> Is there any significant difference between redFISH and Squid ate FISH?
09:11:28 <Flygon> Having a fun time trying to get ship lists for redFISH x.x
09:19:15 <Flygon> Well, I can't just remove a GRF I'm using from a game
09:19:28 <Flygon> But I really REALLY want certain ships from the GRF I should have used
09:19:47 <Flygon> And they both contain same ships, but have some different ships between them too :DD
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12:23:01 <Flygon> Is it overplanning when you're pathing for a Maglev route in 1918 when your game started 1877?
12:23:50 <Wolf01> nah, it's avoiding future hassles
12:25:43 <Flygon> Still, it's unrealistic af :D
12:26:26 <Wolf01> but you already know in 200x you will have maglev
12:27:01 <Wolf01> it would have been a problem if that happened in R-world
12:27:12 <Flygon> That's because I'm David Ten- oh fine :P
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13:58:43 <Alkel_U3> reminds me of someone doing cars on belts
14:01:09 <Wolf01> I've seen that one too
14:04:28 <Wolf01> I'm looking at production lines tips, the best one I've found so far is to make the entire production chain for every item separated from the rest... huge but everything can be produced without interruption, and it's even possible to use the overflow somewhere else
14:05:30 <Wolf01> I usually build a trunk style factory for basic items such gears and electric circuits
14:07:00 <Wolf01> samu: don't know... it's what you wanted to achieve? then go on, I don't use AIs or scripts
14:07:49 <Samu> it's not yet finished, but it seems more informative
14:08:22 <Samu> do you know who likes to use AIs? I'd like some feedback, I'm a bit alone in this
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15:16:27 <argoneus> good morning train friends
15:17:04 <Samu> [14:16] <argoneus> good morning ?
15:19:21 <argoneus> morning is when you wake up, right?
15:20:23 <Alberth> no, morning is when you join
15:21:07 <Alberth> and evening is when you leave
15:22:13 <Wolf01> meh, are blizzard servers under attack again?
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15:22:46 <Wolf01> 1.5s lag and my bandwidth is used for 4kbps
15:23:10 <Alberth> better them than you, isn't it?
15:23:38 <Wolf01> I would like to play... they are forcing me to play factorio instead
15:24:35 <Wolf01> yeah, it is, because I would have played diablo for 2 hours, but factorio will eat my entire time until dinner
15:26:10 <Alberth> so work until 2 hours before dinner?
15:26:38 <Alberth> assuming dinner is further away than 2 hours :p
15:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so it's now good (universal attribute) morning (universal time) train (universal mode of transport) friends (universal relationship)?
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15:41:52 <argoneus> Alberth: but I never leave
15:41:56 <argoneus> does that imply eternal day
15:43:09 <Samu> Alberth: OpenTTD credits say you're a gui expert
15:43:44 <argoneus> can he track my ip with a gui made in visual basic?
15:43:50 <Alberth> argoneus: so why do you think it's morning then? :D
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15:44:11 <argoneus> Alberth: no idea, I don't even know when my body's morning is
15:44:16 <argoneus> I wake up at like 12-14, then I feel tired all day
15:44:23 <argoneus> and only really feel awake at night and go to bed at 4-6 AM
15:44:29 <argoneus> what's wrong with me.
15:45:08 <Alberth> so it's not even morning for you :p
15:45:14 <Samu> i don't go to bed that late though, but still late
15:46:05 <argoneus> you know it's bad when you're trying to fall asleep with the sun shining through your window
15:47:25 <Samu> i need feedback about my gui for the ai/gs config window
15:49:11 <Samu> i just realised there's several methods to set the settings
15:50:00 <Samu> alberth kinda warn me about it initially, but I wasn't sure about it
15:50:07 <Alberth> I only cleaned out the "fixed coordinates for all widgets" stuff so they could resize themselves based on the contents, I mever bothered with the looks or the style of windows
15:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: they invented blinds for that
15:51:57 <Alberth> so if your window displays everything, for all languages, it's ok as far as I am concerned
15:52:33 <Samu> it doesn't resize too well for some languages
15:52:48 <Samu> i tested arabic egyptian
15:53:18 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you see ivan
15:53:35 <Samu> i can't even understand the language, but i can see there's issues and text overlapping
15:54:01 <Samu> i don't know how right to left works
15:54:29 <Alberth> same as left to right, but the other way around :p
15:54:49 <Alberth> you give a box for the string, that's the same for all languages
15:55:33 <Alberth> but the box coordinates must be correct
15:56:23 <Alberth> this is relevant mostly for the case where you draw several things in one box
15:56:47 <Alberth> if you draw "by hand", you have to handle the positioning
15:56:57 <Samu> I am doing that yes. I also tested magyar, i think that's hungarian, the size of "Random AI" in that language is
15:57:30 <Samu> there's only a tiny space for the name of the AI script itself
15:57:53 <Samu> i dont know how to resize the window
15:58:55 <Alberth> you shouldn't have to, you just compute the size of all widgets, and the gui code does the rest
15:59:28 <Alberth> unless you have disabled resizing in some direction
16:00:50 <Samu> sec, better post a screenshot
16:03:10 <Samu> arabic is still confusing me, part of the text is left to right, like the name of the script
16:03:22 <Samu> then some other part, the translated part is right to left
16:10:02 <Alberth> the joys of partial translation :)
16:11:37 <Samu> random ai is larger than the script name :(
16:12:16 <Samu> Denver & Rio Grande doesn't fit
16:12:29 <Samu> and this name is the largest named AI
16:12:37 <Samu> Random AI still beats it in size
16:13:39 <Alberth> did you change it, compared to the normal openttd release?
16:14:14 <Alberth> if it's equally broken there, your patch didn't break it
16:15:34 <Alberth> text in your news message isn't correct either, "has gain" :)
16:16:57 <Alberth> nonetheless, it might be useful to report or fix such things
16:17:22 <Alberth> the author is probably not speaking english as native language
16:18:23 <Samu> hmm, looking back to 1.6.0 version of ai config window is so.... meh now
16:19:55 <Alberth> what is that black text on the left? shouldn't that be at the right?
16:20:40 <Samu> ah, you want the english version
16:20:45 <Samu> i thought u had looked at it
16:21:19 <Alberth> there is a lot of duplicate text in that black text too, wouldn't just the number be enough?
16:21:50 <Alberth> If I compare the normal window with your version, you didn't make it wider, I think
16:22:57 <Alberth> If you only use a number that may be enough, but now, a wider window seems useful to make sure other text still gets mostly the same amount of space
16:23:56 <Alberth> ok, that black text thus belongs at the right in a rtl language
16:24:18 <Alberth> and I'd drop "company" as it doesn't add anything
16:26:08 <Alberth> and the parentheses can be dropped too, imho
16:27:12 <Samu> I was reusing existing strings
16:27:25 <Alberth> the yellow lines would better at the right in the english version
16:27:39 <Alberth> now it looks asif it's a name
16:29:22 <Alberth> you could add "-- not used --" as text there instead
16:30:02 <Alberth> it's a bit colourfull, less colours would be better
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16:31:50 <Alberth> black is hard to read imho
16:32:08 <Alberth> and the meaning of colours seems random, at least it's not explained in the window
16:32:39 <Alberth> perhaps make an icon/sprite that changes depending on the state of the AI
16:32:56 <Alberth> rather than adding all colours of the rainbow :)
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16:33:17 <Samu> 4 colors + white if you select it
16:34:00 <Alberth> you're trying to give a lot of information
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16:35:28 <Alberth> eg the city list has an icon for happiness
16:35:41 <Alberth> train list has coins for profit
16:37:18 <Alberth> the window is already bad in colours, with purple, yellow, and light blue
16:38:29 <Samu> i was never good at picking colors
16:39:09 <Alberth> the colours you picked seem right, in my opinion, the're just too many
16:40:39 <Alberth> fewer colours make it easier on the eye
16:41:53 <Alberth> the AI/GS debug window is really bad, red on grey :P I once looked for a better combination, but there isn't a nice one that was still unique :(
16:42:27 <Samu> i didn't change much in AI GS window, other than the Configure/Settomgs button
16:43:29 <Alberth> I know, it's just as bad in normal openttd :)
16:44:25 <Alberth> I think red is just a bad colour for text
16:44:47 <Alberth> but not sure about that
16:45:06 <Samu> hmm, so back to Silver and Orange with icons telling about their status
16:46:17 <Samu> will need green and red icons
16:46:27 <Samu> probably a 3rd one, not sure yet, have to think
16:47:27 <Samu> company removed from the string, only keep the number
16:47:52 <Samu> and then how to rearrange the indicator "(random ai)"
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16:48:10 <Samu> it merelly mentions that the ai in this slot started as random ai
16:49:16 <Samu> black text could become light blue, i see
16:52:01 <Samu> removing parentesis means... making a new string
16:55:14 <Alberth> set kind of AI instead of "company" ?
16:55:49 <Samu> they're assigned to that specific company id though
16:55:56 <Alberth> you can make a mockup of the window in eg a graphics editor, to see how it would look, and compare designs
16:58:28 <Alberth> as for colours, assume people are colour-blind, unable to see the difference between red and green, for example.
16:58:49 <Alberth> your icons should express their meaning also in their shape
17:00:46 <Alberth> that way you can see what the state of the AI is even without supporting colours
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18:18:56 <Samu> hmm what are the different colors of those boxes in NewGRF window?
18:19:05 <Samu> blue, red, green? any other?
18:22:29 <Alberth> red has an error triangular shape iirc
18:23:12 <Alberth> or maybe that's warning, not sure
18:23:36 <Alberth> but there should be code to print all of them in the newgrf gui
18:27:56 <Alberth> media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png has all the "other" sprites"
18:30:57 <Samu> it's a square that can be coloured with the color I chose
18:34:23 <Samu> oh, the meaning is different here :(
18:35:42 <Samu> the icon is a signal red, yellow, green
18:36:42 <Samu> oh, it's actually a smiley
18:39:18 <Samu> if i'm not present in that town, there's no smile at all
18:40:27 <Samu> i think i can re-use these smileys
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19:56:06 <Samu> maybe i need to approach human company slots differently
19:56:17 <Samu> so much possibilities :(
20:09:37 <Samu> I need an icon to identify a Random AI
20:10:04 <Samu> to save space, and to also re-use it for the debug window, i'm likely to use it there too
20:11:05 <Alberth> ? how is random AI different from chosen AI?
20:11:54 <Samu> will put this icon next to the real AI name, to identify it as an AI that was chosen randomly
20:12:13 <Alberth> yes, but why is that useful information?
20:12:30 <Alberth> a debug log is a debug log
20:13:10 <Samu> there are some scripts that are configured not to start as random, could also add this icon to the list of available scripts
20:13:45 <Alberth> well, ok, could be useful I guess
20:14:08 <Samu> at the moment, the debug log on AI slots
20:14:56 <Samu> crap, hard to explain, my english
20:15:25 <Samu> when u reload an AI in the debug window, it reloads a random ai if the slot was configured to start a random AI
20:15:56 <Alberth> ah, you may get a different AI
20:16:12 <Alberth> then it is useful indeed :)
20:16:49 <Alberth> not sure the "reload" button is at the right spot then, as it doesn't "reload"
20:17:14 <Alberth> at least not in the literal sense of the world
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20:21:04 <Alberth> "start new ai" but it's long
20:21:33 <Alberth> even then, random vs non-random make the button behave differently
20:22:10 <Alberth> it would probably need a different word for both cases
20:23:15 <Samu> i just came accross STR_JUST_INT
20:23:43 <andythenorth> 1889: not so busy bee
20:23:47 <andythenorth> goals are taking some time to meet :D
20:26:12 <Samu> better, i got some space, now must get rid of (Random AI), find some nice icon to replace it
20:29:07 <Alberth> my irc client does have extensions to throw dice, didn't install them though :)
20:29:29 <Wolf01> I wrote mine, don't know if it still works
20:30:18 <Wolf01> what's the second one?
20:30:38 <Wolf01> oh lol, I see a warning sign with a skull
20:31:14 <andythenorth> the cause of ruined relationships around the world :P
20:31:21 <andythenorth> I send ‘heart’ and you get ‘poo'
20:31:22 <Wolf01> but no picture because I would use onedrive and eddi is picky
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20:32:14 <supermop> might have time to mess about with pixels this weekend
20:33:15 * andythenorth is playing an Antelope game
20:33:20 <andythenorth> it’s pretty good so far eh
20:33:30 <andythenorth> narrow gauge, low capacity = long trains
20:33:36 <andythenorth> TL 10 where I’d normally have TL 5 :P
20:34:20 <supermop> i should buy an N HST to commemorate 4o years of one of my favorite bits of industrial design
20:34:30 <Alberth> having just 2 times as many trains wouldn't work?
20:34:37 <supermop> andythenorth: how are you modelling S. African land?
20:34:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: yes that would work also
20:34:54 <Alberth> higher running cost, I guess
20:35:09 <andythenorth> yes, but patched
20:35:21 <andythenorth> temperate generator
20:35:34 <Alberth> having longer trains could be fun
20:35:48 <supermop> there should be means in 'tropic' to produce no desert, or no rainforest
20:36:19 <supermop> not much rainforest in the american south west
20:36:32 <supermop> not much desert in the amazon basin
20:37:34 <andythenorth> child #1 is playing ‘Township’, an isometric casual game
20:37:59 <andythenorth> it has mines where you can open a 2D side-view of the mine workings, and ‘expand’ them
20:38:13 <Wolf01> did you gave him the cc details or hte password?
20:38:31 * andythenorth wonders about GS with manual influence over mines
20:38:38 <andythenorth> or other primary industries
20:40:20 <Alberth> simcity-ish, looks nice
20:40:49 <Wolf01> I was thinking to set a script to roll every time eg. 5d10 is found inside a sentence, without a command, because !roll 5d10 is too long :P
20:41:34 <Wolf01> "5d10" is the command name in that case
20:41:47 <Alberth> there is nothing else you want to do with dice :)
20:42:06 <Wolf01> I don't want to end up with n-combination of aliases
20:43:14 <Alberth> hmm, not very flexible parser thus :p
20:46:32 <Wolf01> one short game with minimetor and then factorio again, I have a railway to build
20:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> minimeteor sounds like a fun game :p
20:48:38 <andythenorth> I went right off minimetro
20:48:45 <andythenorth> seriously anxiety inducing
20:49:22 <supermop> andythenorth: me too
20:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never actually found myself craving to try it
20:50:13 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: do you enjoy having those dreams where all your teeth fall out and you are full of dread?
20:50:19 <andythenorth> it’s compelling, and a nice example of ‘there is no winning strategy, just try to keep up'
20:50:47 <supermop> because it's a good analogue for that
20:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i don't remember ever having such a dream
20:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> one recurring dream i had as a kid was i was walking through some sand/desert area, with lots of lines marking country borders, but they kept getting denser and denser, slowing you down, and ending up stuck like in a net-thingie (usually not involving a spider)
20:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but the net started pulsing like a heartbeat
21:01:17 <supermop> hmm. were nato nightmares different from eastern bloc nightmares?
21:01:33 <supermop> that sounds terrifying
21:03:39 <supermop> oh they have a T-gauge HST
21:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know nato nightmares?
21:07:53 <andythenorth> supermop: buy the Brio one :P
21:08:22 <supermop> brio hst? i vaguely recall a brio 225 from when i was a kid
21:08:45 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: mostly teeth falling out?
21:08:50 <supermop> i hope that wasnt just me
21:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that was mostly just you, i fear.
21:09:28 <andythenorth> hmm, Brio don’t have one
21:09:29 <supermop> occasional bit of nuclear war, which i assume people younger than me never would have been that aware of
21:09:32 * andythenorth assumed they would
21:09:39 <andythenorth> supermop +1 to nuclear war
21:10:05 * andythenorth used to stay up all night listening to the radio for 4 minute warning
21:10:11 <supermop> andythenorth: brio had some intercity swallow something, and a shinkansen, in the late 80s/early 90s
21:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i knew about nuclear war, but that was never really a theme in my dreams
21:10:53 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: you didn't have to live under Reagan giddily hyping it up all the time
21:11:22 <andythenorth> children’s entertainment eh?
21:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, german children's entertainment involves cutting off thumbs and kids burning to ashes... :p
21:14:51 <supermop> glad i missed that one andythenorth
21:16:19 <andythenorth> doesn’t promote happy dreams, eh?
21:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i might actually have watched that once
21:16:36 <andythenorth> surprisingly, Doom never gave me weird dreams
21:17:02 <andythenorth> jitters walking home in the dark after null-modem parties :P
21:17:18 <andythenorth> null-modem parties were the precursor to LAN parties :P
21:17:30 <supermop> TTO had a null modem option
21:17:57 <supermop> my neighbor and i never were able to get it to work though
21:18:19 <supermop> plenty of regular modem games on c&c though
21:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> we always lacked a null modem cable to try it. we only had a parallel cable
21:18:49 <andythenorth> relied on going to a computer fair
21:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and that was too fancy for games to support
21:18:57 <andythenorth> no internet shop :P
21:19:16 <supermop> there was also the issue that my circa 1994 computer was not exactly easy to lug next door
21:20:20 <supermop> i'd settle for a prototype
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21:36:20 <peter1138> my circa 2015 computer is not exactly easy to lug next door...
21:40:13 <andythenorth> gah I hate Squid
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21:48:08 <peter1138> i never realised the soundtrack to when the wind blows was so awesome...
21:48:27 <peter1138> i saw it once when i was little but wouldn't've taken the music in
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22:09:03 <Samu> i still dont get these offsets... it looks easy but it's not
22:10:25 <supermop> anyone want to play a small mp game?
22:10:42 <Samu> to draw a sprite, i must center the sprite box into the line
22:10:55 <Samu> what if the sprite is larger than the line
22:11:36 <andythenorth> supermop: I would but eh, too late, takes too long to get compatible openttd, make a map, set up a server etc :P
22:11:49 <andythenorth> then argue that the settings are wrong, restart etc
22:12:04 <supermop> i just want a game with cargo dist
22:12:09 <Samu> presets for game settings
22:12:20 <andythenorth> I can never predict when I’ll have spare time
22:12:23 <Samu> instead of working with configs
22:12:31 <andythenorth> I always need to test unreleased grfs also :P
22:13:19 <Samu> if the sprite height is 10, the line height is 15, what is the height offset for the sprite to center it in the line?
22:22:17 <Samu> but sometimes the line is shorter than the image :(
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22:58:26 <Samu> I'm replacing that 10 with WD_FRAMERECT_LEFT, looks much better
22:59:30 <supermop> sure are a ton of aluminum plants on this map
23:02:56 <Samu> wait a minute, this is a matrix? so i use WD_MATRIX_LEFT
23:15:15 <Samu> why can't i convert int to unit?
23:23:32 <Samu> why are some sizes int and some others uint?
23:23:39 <Samu> is there a real difference?
23:24:48 <Samu> can't combine both unless i do (uint) before the font sizes
23:28:20 <Samu> uint(FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL + WD_MATRIX_TOP + WD_MATRIX_BOTTOM) - is this common practice?
23:39:52 <peter1138> uintt isnn'tt a ffunction
23:43:58 <Samu> it's not accepting it any other way
23:44:32 <Samu> error: no instance of function template "max" matches the argument list openttd d:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ai\ai_gui.cpp 786
23:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: so logs finally died?
23:46:06 <Samu> this->line_height = max(uint(FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL) + WD_MATRIX_TOP + WD_MATRIX_BOTTOM, (GetSpriteSize(SPR_SQUARE).height + WD_MATRIX_TOP + WD_MATRIX_BOTTOM));
23:46:15 <glx> dying keyboard peter1138 ?
23:47:20 <glx> Samu: use (uint)FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL
23:49:22 <Samu> i'm simplifying this line
23:50:12 <Samu> this->line_height = max((uint)FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL, GetSpriteSize(SPR_SQUARE).height) + WD_MATRIX_TOP + WD_MATRIX_BOTTOM;
23:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i have the feeling that half the threads in the forum are by Baldy's Boss?
23:57:23 <supermop> that's absurd Eddi|zuHause
continue to next day ⏵
