IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-29
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00:25:48 <supermop> half rivers seems like a good start as you'd end up drawing much of the same stuff for sloped waterfalls
01:10:18 <Samu> on the first image it shows the missing water sprites on the left, and the missing pathable water track on the right
01:11:31 <Samu> the bare tiles need no tracks, they already behave correctly
01:11:58 <Samu> the flat tile 0 also behaves correctly
01:12:09 <Samu> the others, half-tiles, don't
01:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i brought up half-rivers they were shot down because people would then want to build rails on the other half tile
01:30:45 <Samu> those tracks are to visualize where ships can traverse
01:31:06 <Samu> but the tile is fully water
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02:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> are we playing "i don't think i see what you are seeing"?
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02:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow doubt they're getting a lot of snow in that museum
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03:43:52 <sim-al2> I'm not sure I understand why a transfer table for a tram would have only half a roof
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03:48:10 <drac_boy> personally I find the whole thing a bit strange to me...I'm used to simple ones that just looks like a flat bridge sitting on the ground and not much else (aside to overhead wire if electric locomotives required)
03:54:17 <drac_boy> hm not finding that photo I recall before. but either way germany does have a small number of all-electrified turntables tho. kinda funny to look at that spaghetti-like mess of wires starting from the very center point and shoot in all manners of directions
03:58:52 <drac_boy> I see a silly bright little diesel locomotive has sneaked in tho :) (and yeah a little military wagon/train too)
04:05:44 <drac_boy> either way going sleep so have fun
04:22:05 <Samu> with the patch, the ships will be able to run in circles. becomes easier to see how the missing sprites should look like
04:22:28 <Samu> now i'm out to sleep, good night all
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07:58:39 <Flygon> We're making a railtype that ships can drive on? O_O
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08:53:53 <andythenorth> but would NotRoadTypes have speed limits and all that crap?
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12:50:12 <Wolf01> mmh, I can't understand why one subscribed feed doesn't load correctly, if I debug the collection all is in place, it just doesn't show in the UI
12:50:44 <Wolf01> even if I replace the feed values with static values
12:50:50 <Wolf01> so it can't be the feed
12:53:25 <Wolf01> slept well, andy? had some subtle revelation on dream?
13:01:10 <wilima> Hi, is it possible the connect bank and train station with car and transport money from bank to train station and load the train to another city?
13:02:20 <Wolf01> yes, the station must not accept valuables and you need to set the truck order to unload and leave empty or transfer
13:02:48 <wilima> ah, thanks, thats the thing :)
13:02:49 <Wolf01> transfer is better because truck and train share the income
13:15:49 <Samu> can someone explain me this piece of code
13:15:52 <Samu> static const byte coast_tracks[] = {0, 32, 4, 0, 16, 0, 0, 0, 8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0};
13:16:43 <Samu> what are those numbers inside the brackets
13:21:39 <Samu> case WATER_TILE_COAST: ts = (TrackBits)coast_tracks[GetTileSlope(tile) & 0xF]; break;
13:24:33 <Wolf01> they seem to be the track bits allowed to be built on coasts
13:30:51 * andythenorth has NotRoadType spec questions
13:31:00 <andythenorth> I think the implementation is not so hard again now
13:32:32 <andythenorth> but all the speeds and compatibility crap that railtypes has :|
13:33:04 <Samu> there's 16 numbers inside
13:33:39 <Samu> 0 32 4 0 16 etc... how are they used in this ts = (TrackBits)coast_tracks[GetTileSlope(tile) & 0xF]
13:34:32 <Samu> the numbers are track bit, i think i understand that now
13:34:48 <Samu> but the ts = (TrackBits) part I still don't get it
13:38:37 <andythenorth> is that not just accessing data in a TrackBits type?
13:38:41 * andythenorth is pure guessing
13:38:53 <andythenorth> have you looked up the TrackBits type?
13:39:52 <Wolf01> Samu, each array position should be one of the slopes the tile can have, and the numbers related to the slopes you can build on are the trackbit
13:40:01 <andythenorth> if I was guessing, I’d suggest the slope was an index into some kind of array
13:40:22 <andythenorth> and that the result was the number of track bits, or a bitmask number which is unpacked for track bit pattern
13:41:31 <Wolf01> (things like that are kind of magic to me, I have a lot to learn on data structures)
13:42:07 <Wolf01> but I can get the idea on how they work
13:42:38 <Wolf01> so andy, what was the question?
13:42:44 <andythenorth> coding a lot of nfo taught me how to make educated guesses
13:42:52 <andythenorth> but not how to do bitmaths properly :x
13:44:16 <Compu> how do i change the soundfont openttd uses for midis in ubuntu?
13:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on which music driver is used. if timidity, then look at their settings
13:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> something might be achieved by parameters to openttd's -m setting
13:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> documentation is likely poor in that area
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14:22:17 <andythenorth> Wolf01: the question is whether NotRoadTypes should be (a) super simple (just eye candy) or (b) provide features / limits, for example speed limits, and arbitrary compatibility / incompatibility
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14:22:25 <andythenorth> or [c] something else
14:22:58 <Wolf01> B for coherence with railtypes
14:23:04 <andythenorth> I find some of the features of railtypes strikingly useless
14:23:10 <andythenorth> not most, but some
14:23:52 <andythenorth> also as a newgrf author, railtypes is just baffling to work with
14:24:06 <andythenorth> somebody else (foobar) wrote Termite because I don’t understand the spec
14:24:16 <andythenorth> and the railtypes stuff in Iron Horse was given to me by other people
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14:24:47 <Wolf01> I usually build roro stations with a "slower" railtype so trains are forced to slow down if passing through and not going 190kph
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14:49:16 <Samu> in fact, i might have actually found a bug
14:49:34 <Samu> unless my understanding failed somewhere
14:50:54 <Samu> nevermind, not a bug, it's me
15:05:05 <Samu> question, are there water tiles that use the SLOPE_ELEVATED slope configuration? or is it the same as SLOPE_FLAT?
15:06:45 <Samu> apparently, SLOPE_ELEVATED has no trackbits
15:07:25 <Samu> any specific reason why is this so?
15:08:31 <andythenorth> it might be because the coast tiles are also water
15:08:37 <andythenorth> that’s how it works in newgrf
15:08:47 <andythenorth> and they are, of course, sloped
15:09:12 * andythenorth is giving out possibly wrong info, it’s a long time since I used that in newgrf
15:09:29 <andythenorth> water has trackbits? o_O
15:09:45 <Samu> to know where they can walk
15:09:46 <andythenorth> pathfinder needs them I assume
15:09:54 <andythenorth> ok so coast tiles would have no trackbits
15:10:24 <andythenorth> also there is the waterfalls case for rivers
15:10:37 <andythenorth> waterfalls are not navigable
15:10:55 <Samu> some coast tiles have tracks
15:11:17 <Samu> ~yes, half-water / halt-declive, yes
15:11:20 <andythenorth> half tiles would have one or 3 bits, at a guess
15:15:12 <Samu> yes, I started at that since yesterday night, lol
15:16:31 <argoneus> there are waterfalls?!
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15:19:22 <Samu> tile 0 in the picture is a SLOPE_FLAT
15:20:31 <Samu> tile 15, which is not in the picture, would be a SLOPE_ELEVATED, and it looks like a SLOPE_FLAT with the 4 corners raised
15:20:54 <Samu> I wonder, why isn't the game currently putting tracks in SLOPE_ELEVATED
15:21:58 <Samu> is it ambiguous? pointless to do so? is it because once the 4 corners are raised, it becomes SLOPE_FLAT? what is it?
15:39:57 <andythenorth> tile 12 is a waterfall for example
15:47:40 <Bowen> hey guys, anyone know why server 2 is down?
15:59:59 <Samu> what do I do? put tracks in SLOPE_ELEVATED or not? It's a difference between typing a 0 or 63
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17:00:40 <Samu> question: GetTileSlope(tile) will never return SLOPE_ELEVATED, right?
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17:23:13 <Samu> assuming i am right, and that SLOPE_ELEVATED is never returned by GetTileSlope(tile), why is that there's 16 entries in coast_tracks[] = {0, 32, 4, 0, 16, 0, 0, 0, 8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0}; and not 15?
17:25:01 <Samu> the last entry is for the SLOPE_ELEVATED tile but if it's not even returned (assuming i'm right), why is it there?
17:29:54 <Alberth> completeness? table is also used for other code? someone wasn't thinking? better safe than sorry?
17:31:18 * andythenorth bets on better safe than sorry
17:32:03 <Alberth> it could even be the case that in the past that value was returned and thus used
17:33:41 <Samu> oh, that makes more sense
17:33:59 <Alberth> code is not written once and never touched again
17:34:13 <Alberth> over the years different people make changes
17:34:37 <Alberth> it's next to impossible to move everything along
17:35:00 <Alberth> compilers don't warn about things you don't need
17:35:29 <Alberth> except for some trivial cases like unused static in a file
17:38:06 <Samu> I see, thanks for the explanation, it was driving me crazy
17:38:22 <Samu> i thought i was misinterpreting something
17:38:50 <Alberth> don't assume code makes sense :p
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17:39:43 <andythenorth> other apps, I learnt to judge the mentaility of the authors :P
17:39:55 <andythenorth> openttd I assume is sane and well thought out, not sure why I do that :P
17:40:33 <andythenorth> some tools and frameworks are though
17:40:49 <andythenorth> others are clearly created by bags of monkeys with keyboards
17:41:21 <andythenorth> o/t, if I ask enough people what NotRoadTypes should provide, will I eventually get the answer I want? oO_
17:42:03 <Alberth> if you know the latter, I think you would, law of the big numbers :)
17:42:14 <Alberth> not sure you'd need to ask then, however :p
17:42:36 <andythenorth> mostly I don’t know how much of speed limits and crap I’d want to support
17:42:46 <andythenorth> practically, I might not be able to code that anyway
17:42:53 <andythenorth> but conceptually eh?
17:43:37 <Samu> okay, so that leads me back to the original question: do i put tracks in SLOPE_ELEVATED (which aren't even checked), or no tracks (like it is now)?
17:43:57 <Alberth> imho, having more than 1 type of road graphically is already very ++++
17:44:28 <Alberth> coding other crap can always be done later
17:44:47 <Alberth> not to mention some patch authors will do that all by themselves
17:45:39 <Alberth> at least, I suspect someone will :)
17:46:08 <andythenorth> it affects some design choices about compatibility and so on
17:46:15 <andythenorth> and overbuilding and that sort of thing
17:46:28 <Alberth> Samu: assume the value could be returned, what is the best value then?
17:46:45 <Alberth> yeah, very complicated very quickly
17:46:54 <Samu> tracks, that would mean 63 there
17:47:18 <Samu> but the code was putting 0
17:48:22 <Alberth> right, that would suggest the author wanted a) not a crash, and b) something obvious to see as being wrong?
17:48:55 <Samu> IsTileFlat(tile) ? TRACK_BIT_ALL : TRACK_BIT_NONE; break;
17:49:25 <Alberth> but I don't see the problem, the value isn't used, how can it be a wrong value?
17:49:52 <Samu> (TrackBits)clear_tracks[GetTileSlope(tile) & 0xF]; break;
17:50:48 <Samu> IsTileFlat(tile) function
17:50:54 <Samu> must investigate what this one do
17:52:20 <andythenorth> wonders why it’s raining at home time
18:01:07 <andythenorth> I am the center of my world, so probably that yes
18:16:33 <Samu> back, alright, I'm going to play safe and put 63
18:18:43 <Samu> IsTileFlat is checking the height of 4 adjacent tiles to find out if they're all equal or not
18:19:07 <Samu> it's not even using GetTileSlope
18:22:01 <Samu> the height of SLOPE_ELEVATED is 1 and that means that the 4 adjacent tiles height would also be 1... so in essence, the old code would eventually put tracks, so i'm gonna do the same
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18:47:51 <Samu> my code will never check SLOPE_ELEVATED, i'm still not pleased
18:48:49 <Samu> the original code doesn't check SLOPE_ELEVATED directly, but it would still put tracks
18:50:28 <Samu> case WATER_TILE_CLEAR: ts = IsTileFlat(tile) ? TRACK_BIT_ALL : (TrackBits)clear_tracks[GetTileSlope(tile) & 0xF]; break;
18:57:47 <Alberth> I am thinking I have no clue what you are doing
19:00:16 <Samu> improving the static TrackStatus GetTileTrackStatus_Water(TileIndex tile, TransportType mode, uint sub_mode, DiagDirection side)
19:02:51 <Samu> making ships able to traverse water tiles with slopes, a bit like what currently happens with coastal tiles
19:03:41 <Samu> but for all tile heights, and not just sea level
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19:10:23 <Samu> pretty much is what that patch do
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19:24:17 <Alberth> why not build a canal on a foundation? that would do the same thing
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19:36:36 <Samu> static Foundation GetFoundation_Water(TileIndex tile, Slope tileh) return FOUNDATION_NONE;
19:36:45 <Samu> okay, i have no idea what's a foundation
19:38:42 <andythenorth> conceptually, or in the code?
19:39:43 <Alberth> build a track at a slope
19:39:45 <andythenorth> canals with foundations are an interesting idea
19:39:51 <Alberth> or a house or a depot
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19:40:20 <andythenorth> actually that newgrf link is probably not helpful sorry
19:40:27 <andythenorth> I was hoping there was a picture, but no
19:40:46 <Alberth> ha, that would be too helpful :p
19:40:53 <andythenorth> could add one :)
19:41:29 <Alberth> don't think many people read that stuff any more, with nml around
19:43:17 <Alberth> I treat it like Java :p
19:44:05 <Alberth> seen a few programs, but never wrote a line c# :)
19:46:38 <Wolf01> I have problems converting a collection to a dictionary :/ The example code is really easy but the IDE complaints that I can't convert a KeyValuePair(string, string) to string... I can't understand how to select only the value and not the whole KeyValuePair
19:47:26 <andythenorth> no .value or something?
19:47:35 <Wolf01> I'm doing this => Dictionary<long, Package> dictionary = packages.ToDictionary(p => p.TrackingNumber);
19:47:35 <Alberth> it doesn't have a "getKey()" or so?
19:47:48 <Wolf01> this is from the example
19:48:11 <andythenorth> they’re just props apparently
19:48:35 <Alberth> props and getters/setters are mostly the same thing in c#, afaik
19:49:20 <Wolf01> but the example creates a dictionary of <string, KVP>, where do I put the second .key?
19:50:36 <Wolf01> I just started to use the (p => p.something), I used it on the Where() extension so far
19:51:30 <Wolf01> maybe it's because p.value is already a KVP, but I'm not sure
19:51:45 <Alberth> my guess would be p.Key => p.Value but far from knowing that
19:51:58 <Alberth> don't understand the notation
19:53:35 <Wolf01> in Where() is select p where p.prop == something, here could be return p with key p.prop
19:54:21 <Wolf01> the problem is, I don't want p, only p.value :D
19:55:11 <Alberth> perhaps try to be less smart, and use a few more lines code?
19:57:07 <Wolf01> ok, I'll go back to the old foreach
19:59:21 <Alberth> no doubt it can be done, but figuring it out also takes time
20:00:26 <Wolf01> I can't understand why it should be so difficult, maybe with a delegate...
20:03:38 <Wolf01> I'll stay with the foreach
20:04:18 <Wolf01> that notation is good because of chainability
20:04:48 <Samu> foundation is related with autoslope?
20:07:19 <Wolf01> autoslope or not, foundation is related with what there is over the tile, autoslope only avoids the user to manually terraform to have the right slope
20:08:18 <Wolf01> and does that by adding a foundation usually
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20:11:59 <Samu> eum... the only think i can say is... i wasn't planning autosloped rivers
20:12:30 <andythenorth> rivers could use some improvements :D
20:12:36 <andythenorth> how about scope creeep? o_O
20:13:24 <Samu> imagine a mountain of water
20:13:47 <Samu> i don't want it to look like I'm playing minecraft
20:15:11 <Wolf01> just finished to play it :D
20:17:04 <Samu> scope creep, what's that?
20:17:18 <andythenorth> I have an idea, you add it to your unrelated patch :)
20:17:23 <andythenorth> good for me, not for you
20:23:15 <Wolf01> andy, you do my feed reader UWP and I do roadbits?
20:23:28 <Samu> the goal i had is: allow terraforming of tiles which contain rivers on it
20:24:01 <Samu> it needs working on sprites, i believe they're "missing sprites"
20:24:16 <Samu> so that it doesn't look stupid like on that screenshot
20:24:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: NotRoadTypes :P
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20:25:30 <Samu> now, assuming the sprites were already available, the water tracks needed to be adjustable, because ships were not able to traverse them
20:25:59 <Samu> only the tile 0 had tracks
20:28:49 <Samu> the watered tile is 100% water, no half-parts being land and the other being something else. It's a water tile, no matter what
20:29:24 <Samu> the watered tile is 100% water, no half-parts being WATER* and the other being something else. It's a water tile, no matter what <- fixed
20:29:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: what railtype crap-with-no-gameplay-fun should I copy over to NotRoadTypes? o_O
20:32:12 <Samu> the problem is that I have no idea what's a foundation
20:32:27 <frosch123> drawing of custom road graphics :)
20:32:36 <frosch123> drawing of custom bridge surfaces
20:32:53 * andythenorth has a copy of railtype props in notes here
20:33:08 <frosch123> flags for drive-in availability
20:33:48 <andythenorth> I think drive-in is determined by road or tram, subtype should ignore it
20:34:09 <andythenorth> speed_limit, acceleration_model, curve_speed_multiplier all look very boring
20:34:29 <frosch123> true, we have no drive-in movement code for trams
20:34:42 <frosch123> yeah, none of the properties look interesting
20:35:23 <Samu> foundations are sprites?
20:35:36 <andythenorth> to be clear where I got to on ‘spec'
20:36:00 <andythenorth> - every tile gets up to 1 ROADTYPE_ROAD and 1 ROADTYPE_TRAM
20:36:14 <andythenorth> - there are road subtypes and tram subtypes
20:36:21 <frosch123> Samu: foundations are Liberté, égalité and fraternité
20:36:31 <andythenorth> the chosen subtype is the one that will be built for all road bits of that roadtype on the tile
20:36:54 <andythenorth> subtype provides catenary, or not
20:37:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought about that. currently i prefer splitting road and light-rail at the very top of the toolbar
20:37:24 <andythenorth> at some point, I will figure out the compatibility crap, and ‘powered on this subtype’ will be left to vehicles to figure out
20:37:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: that remains possible in my patch
20:37:43 <andythenorth> light-rail is an interesting renaming of trams
20:37:46 <frosch123> so, from the interface point of view, there are real rail, road, light rail, canal and airport
20:38:01 <frosch123> you can combine light rail and road, just like you can compbine normal rail and road
20:38:14 <andythenorth> but only one of each per tile
20:38:31 <frosch123> yes, one railtype per tile
20:38:34 <frosch123> one roadtype per tile
20:38:36 <Samu> supermop: hey, you're still interested about drawing sprites? couldn't figure out if you were willing to help
20:38:39 <frosch123> one lightrail type per tile
20:38:40 <andythenorth> one lightrailtype
20:38:43 <frosch123> one watertype per tile
20:39:04 <andythenorth> would you propose actually reimplementing all the road stuff to split trams out into light rail?
20:39:06 <andythenorth> or just in the UI?
20:39:23 <frosch123> internally trams are like roadvehicles
20:39:36 <frosch123> but from a gui point of view it makes no sense to put tram and road into the same dropdown
20:39:48 <frosch123> when you can only combine one group with the other
20:39:52 <andythenorth> I’ll copy this to my notes
20:40:20 <andythenorth> in first patch, all subtypes will be cross-compatible
20:40:33 <andythenorth> then I’ll figure out ‘powered or not’ which probably means touching pathfinder :(
20:40:45 <andythenorth> and some kind of compatibility table for subtypes I guess :)
20:41:16 <frosch123> yeah, ignore compatibilty till the very end :)
20:41:28 <frosch123> after all purr is the best railset :p
20:41:33 <frosch123> so, first road-purr
20:41:48 <andythenorth> I don’t understand compatibility right now for railtypes at all, as newgrf author
20:41:53 <andythenorth> got no desire to repeat that :P
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20:43:24 <supermop> samu, if its straightforward, yes
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20:47:17 <Samu> did you get the savegame I posted yesterday night? i posted a link in chat, it would let you visualize what is missing
20:52:40 <Samu> or the ships won't turn in the corners
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21:03:27 <supermop> but i can make time to draw some
21:08:40 <Samu> the patch also lets you mess around with the terraforming of rivers. you can raise and lower a lake of river tiles and the river tiles will remain
21:10:02 <Samu> (but it won't currently let you demolish a river tile)
21:10:44 <Samu> guess that's what I'm gonna code now
21:35:21 <SpComb> oh god does someone still use that
21:36:06 <SpComb> it'll probably die by summer unless I get around to completely rewriting it
21:41:31 <frosch123> SpComb: we can likely send webster here as well
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22:53:11 <Samu> terraform function is huge :(
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23:30:36 <Nathan1852> I have a problem with some grfs. I am trying to decode them using Grf Wizard to better understand how they work, but some of the imagesdon't decode right. Grfcodec just says that the grf has 0 sprites, although the grf works fine ingame
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23:33:11 <Nathan1852> So if someone knows why this happens and/or ho to fix it, I would be really happy
23:34:28 <SpComb> The Webster Leiden International Relations Club (IRC) was first inspired through Webster student, Hemayel Martina. Since its initiation, it has become a force of education, communication, and passion
23:34:45 <SpComb> heh, fun misquotes aboud, "Visit our Facebook or the IRC Blog for up-to-date information and events. If you would like to become an active member in the IRC, please send an email to: websterleidenirc@gmail.com"
23:35:04 <SpComb> but that's probably not what frosch meant
23:37:56 <SpComb> but if #openttd wants its irclogs and someone else is already maintaining a bot for that, it might be a sensible replacement
23:39:34 <SpComb> I have some vauge ideas for reimplementing it, but I'd like to avoid having to port the current archic mess over, and the server it's currently running on is scheduled for demolition
23:43:39 <Nathan1852> Could one of you maybe help me?
23:47:36 <FLHerne> Nathan1852: I missed whatever the original question was
23:47:48 <FLHerne> What problem are you having?
23:47:49 <Nathan1852> I have a problem with some grfs. I am trying to decode them using Grf Wizard to better understand how they work, but some of the imagesdon't decode right. Grfcodec just says that the grf has 0 sprites, although the grf works fine ingame
23:49:02 <FLHerne> Hm, I've never used 'Grf Wizard', just plain grfcodec
23:49:12 <FLHerne> Do you have a link to the grf(s) in question?
23:49:42 <Nathan1852> Well, grf wizard just starts grfcodec, so there shouldn't be any differences
23:50:31 <Nathan1852> I got the grfs from the ingame download, some of them the 2cc and chips grfs
23:50:35 <FLHerne> Well, I want to try and see if it works here :P
23:51:52 <Nathan1852> You probably can download them via the ingame downloader
23:52:21 <FLHerne> Nathan1852: Chips 1.5.0 decodes fine here with grfcodec 6.0.5
23:52:43 <FLHerne> Ah, possibly GrfWizard bundles an old grfodec version without grfv8 support?
23:53:06 <FLHerne> The newgrf format was changed to support 32-bit sprites and multiple zoom levels
23:53:42 <Nathan1852> It had version 0.9.10
23:54:51 <FLHerne> Definitely too old, by about 5 years
23:55:27 <Nathan1852> Yeah. I think it doesn't even bundle it, but I downloaded the wrong (old) version by mistake
23:59:27 <Nathan1852> It works now, thank you for your help
continue to next day ⏵
