IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-21
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01:34:22 <drac_boy> not sure why that stopped responding...
01:34:39 <drac_boy> but anyhow as I was wondering, anyone want a real locomotive that needs a lot more than just a rag and some water? :p
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03:08:46 <drac_boy> going sleep anyhow..just can't seem to do much for grfs :-s
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08:32:05 <_johannes> I have a train that shall reach a station using yapf, and it needs to turn around in a station to reach it
08:32:21 <_johannes> the result: YAPF says it can not find the path :(
08:34:37 <andythenorth> “Iron Llama (Inspired by Argentina, Peru and Chile)”
08:34:52 <andythenorth> “Iron Llama (trains in the style of Argentina, Peru and Chile)”
08:35:12 <andythenorth> “Iron Llama (trains for the sub-tropic climate)”
08:35:37 <andythenorth> (this is in the parameter dropdown option for each roster)
08:35:57 <Alberth> I wouldn't name real countries
08:36:02 <andythenorth> I am thinking that
08:36:18 <andythenorth> I’ll name them in the docs, for people who dig that far
08:36:27 <Alberth> You didn't add X1245 train
08:38:56 <Alberth> _johannes: isn't a search done twice, once without and once with reverse ? I don't know much of that code, but I think I saw that somewhere
08:42:08 <_johannes> Alberth: good point, though I thought YAPF could do it natively...
08:44:01 <Alberth> it does sounds somewhat expensive, running mostly the same search twice. Not sure if there are A* versions that can handle such cases
08:44:05 <_johannes> though an A* maybe just can not turn around...
08:44:54 <Alberth> in general, a train is moving, where turn-around doesn't make sense :)
08:45:20 <Alberth> so maybe it's too edge-case to bother about
08:46:24 <_johannes> yes, I see the point...
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08:47:42 <andythenorth> “Iron Llama (mostly narrow-gauge trains)”
08:48:08 <Alberth> it uses 2 rail types?
08:48:25 <andythenorth> 4 to be strictly accurate :)
08:48:39 <andythenorth> also depends on which railtype grf you have :P
08:49:39 <andythenorth> “Iron Llama: mostly narrow gauge trains (sub-tropic climate recommended)”
08:50:13 <Alberth> bit long-ish eh? maybe add the latter in the description of the option?
08:51:09 <Alberth> I'd put the climate in the header, and the track type in the description, but that's just what you think is more important
08:51:53 <andythenorth> I was thinking of putting a short guide to the rosters in the description
08:52:06 <andythenorth> otherwise they’re just silly names, how does the player know what to expect?
08:52:55 <Alberth> text will probably still fit, option window is quite wide
08:54:11 <andythenorth> Iron Llamaa. Narrow gauge: from 1860. Standard Gauge: from 1950. Metro: from 1968.
08:54:22 <andythenorth> start dates seem to be most important fact when choosing?
08:58:30 <Alberth> I prefer to know from when til when a train set provides trains, yes :)
08:58:59 <Alberth> track types are probably nice for the rail enthousiasts
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09:01:30 <andythenorth> better to just show first intro date?
09:01:50 <andythenorth> "Iron Llama: sub-tropic trains for 1860-1990”
09:08:36 <andythenorth> “Iron Antelope: sub-tropic trains for 1860-1995”
09:08:43 <andythenorth> might be low on information content :P
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09:10:08 <andythenorth> the choice of climate is really up to the player? Or a guide is nice?
09:10:26 * andythenorth wonders if there is a better way than parameter dropdowns o_O
09:14:10 <andythenorth> similar to station UI I guess
09:16:43 <_johannes> strange, there seems to be no station turnaroun penalty?
09:17:00 <_johannes> also, where can I set penalties in the options? is there any ingame menu?
09:17:15 <_johannes> for the pathfinder options, I see only ~ 5
09:24:26 <_johannes> I see only 3 options for any pathfinders: allow turnaround at stations, allow turnaround at signals, allow 90 degrees turns... does anyone have more options?
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09:34:37 <_johannes> V453000: you mean editing the config file? hmmm...
09:37:11 <andythenorth> V453000 getting sleep?
09:37:59 <V453000> was celebrating on friday though, so brain is just getting back to operation
09:38:17 <andythenorth> I have been waiting for 6 years for operating brain
09:38:56 <Alberth> andy: not sure how years are interesting after you loaded and enabled the newgrf, I mean, you'd already know what to expect, right? (hmm, ,maybe not everybody reads the blurbs :) )
09:39:45 <V453000> my approach is to have 1 vehicle which is available since insanely early
09:40:02 <V453000> and the last generation of vehicles never expires
09:40:07 <andythenorth> not everyone reads the blurbs :)
09:40:18 <V453000> that way you have 1600-infinitum functionality
09:40:20 * andythenorth must play mario for 1 hour now
09:40:26 <V453000> and just write in the description new trains 1900-2100
09:40:31 <Alberth> as for climate, a guide is nice, but not sure whether to enforce it, most people are very much stuck in the temperate climate :)
09:42:03 <V453000> the 1600ish date I have determined is by the maximum value for expire date
09:42:16 <V453000> ie, I want teh vehicle to expire in 1920 after some new vehicles are around
09:42:23 <V453000> 1920 -256 or something
09:42:35 <V453000> ofc 1800 is probably enuf XD
09:42:54 <Alberth> add the same vehicle multiple times :p
09:43:59 <Alberth> starting early has the nice advantage that you never end up in the mono rail and maglev eras
09:44:27 <Alberth> even electric becomes uncommon, for me :)
09:48:55 <Ketsuban> I doubt a TT made today would bother with different climate maps - they'd just have desert and snowy mountain as parts of the map in general. There's really not enough content in terms of trains and industries to justify them being totally different map types.
09:51:56 <V453000> well yes rails have their kind of magic, monorail and maglev not so much
09:52:50 <V453000> Ketsuban: if a TT was made today, the engine would probably allow for bigger differences between the climates functionaly :P
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09:57:38 <Ketsuban> I dunno what meaningful differences you could really add.
09:57:39 <Alberth> mobile TT 2013 isn't that big is it?
09:58:01 <V453000> mobile TT is a joke isn't it :P
09:58:21 <Alberth> to CS it isn't, I think :)
09:58:31 <V453000> idk, freezing rails, stuff :)
09:58:48 <Alberth> but maybe it's too much stuck into remaking the old game
09:59:23 <Alberth> or limited by available graphics
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10:56:40 <_johannes> somehow, I think turnaround behaviour in openttd is improvable
10:57:19 <_johannes> the best would be that if a train must turn, then the locomotives move away from the waggons and find a path to the other side
10:57:33 <_johannes> (unless you have trains on both ends)
10:58:11 <_johannes> but even if you have trains on both ends, openttd animates that the waggon order is reversed... imo it would look nice if the waggon order was not reversed in that case
10:58:51 <_johannes> so, a train with locomotive+passenger+mail+locomotive should return as locomotive+mail+passenger+locomotive
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11:09:39 <andythenorth> so just “Iron Llama”
11:09:48 <andythenorth> no further description in parameter dropdown?
11:13:43 <andythenorth> tbh, probably most people are never going to see these words
11:13:53 <andythenorth> who clicks ‘set parameters’?
11:14:10 <Wolf01> what are you talking about, does ottd have that feature? :D :D
11:25:58 <Flygon> Shunting locos, esp steam locos
11:26:05 <Flygon> With that sort of direction swapping
11:26:11 <Flygon> Would be an incredible pain :D
11:26:21 <Wolf01> I tried shunting, it's boring :P
11:26:29 <Flygon> Esp for bigger terminuses
11:26:44 <Flygon> Either you need to route the loco in such a way that it never terminates somewhere with multiple platforms
11:27:01 <Flygon> Or have incredibly huge shunting yards, due to how OTTD logistics work
11:29:09 <Wolf01> because normal shunting yards aren't huge?
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11:38:04 <Wolf01> also you might need to build wyes or balloon loops almost everywhere, according to your play style
11:42:09 <Flygon> Wolf01: It's more the congestion related problems, esp. trying to build a traditional-like setup
11:42:24 <Flygon> And the additional problems with Tender vs Tank locos
11:42:52 <Flygon> The inability to build points and signallings INSIDE railway platforms with the OTTD engine
11:43:52 <Flygon> Which means the only real alternatives for anything remotely realistic is reversing the entire train out into a congested set of points into a triangle or balloon loop
11:44:04 <Flygon> Adds even MORE congestion
11:44:23 <Flygon> I might be the idiot that invented the non-weaving cloverleaf
11:44:30 <Flygon> But I still know some basics
11:45:27 <Wolf01> since I started to play trainz I feel that the TT concept of stations is really limited, or you really have to build weird non-uniform super stations with switches, signals and waypoints in the middle
11:45:42 <Wolf01> but I don't know if ottd can handle that
11:47:08 <Flygon> With incredible abuse of waypoints
11:47:23 <Flygon> But it's a pure raw pain to program the points and trains
11:48:27 <Wolf01> I would try to build a simple timesaver and simulate some shunting
11:48:56 * andythenorth would do that with actual model trains :P
11:49:03 <andythenorth> maybe I should do that now :P
11:51:34 <Wolf01> I have a diorama, I don't remember the exact scale (TT or HO) and it's really cool, too bad I don't have any space to build it
11:58:33 <Flygon> There are a lot of minor ways, on the surface, that OTTDs track management can be improved
11:58:50 <Flygon> ie. subterranian and viaduct-like functions like Cities: Skylines has
11:58:56 <Flygon> But the reality of nightmare coding is maksed
12:01:08 <andythenorth> it’s game design
12:16:36 <Flygon> I just assumed it was a huge pita to program the pathfinder and other game mechanics to work with a fully functional Z axis
12:16:38 <Wolf01> ok, found the boxes, it's TT scale but I can't find it on google in any way
12:16:44 <Flygon> Instead of abusing the eff out of wormholes
12:26:39 <Alberth> if you want realistic train movements, build a train simulator
12:33:05 <^Spike^> Alberth quick question about eints: how will it survive a restart of pgsql? :)
12:33:09 <^Spike^> need to do some updates :)
12:34:00 <^Spike^> ok will bug frosch when he's around :)
12:34:10 <Flygon> Alberth: Shunting is more of a 'cool feature' thing
12:34:11 <^Spike^> prob also need the eints container to be updated aswell
12:34:25 <Flygon> But rails in a fully 3D space would be amazing for network flexibility
12:35:29 <Alberth> a dev spends a few years building shunting, everybody tries it for 5 minutes and then turns it off, yay
12:37:10 <Alberth> pretty expensive 5 minutes
12:37:30 <Flygon> Not sure why I'm being grilled
12:37:45 <andythenorth> right place, right time
12:37:48 <Wolf01> -> [11:26:29] <Wolf01> I tried shunting, it's boring :P
12:38:16 <Flygon> I'm... not sure I understand
12:40:24 <Wolf01> uh, nice, did you try SCARM? looks really good for building model layouts
12:40:40 <V453000> I believe that the systematic way of how tracks are laid on a grid is one of the big reasons why TT/TTD/OpenTTD are so popular in compare to other transport/simulation/train games
12:40:51 <Alberth> sorry, just got too tired of hearing this realism shit
12:41:07 <V453000> it has limitations? Yes, but they are also benefits
12:43:05 * andythenorth makes some realisms trains
12:45:13 <Wolf01> but a few more features won't be so bad, specially the one to enable train to travel on reverse
12:47:02 <Alberth> to make cargo arrive in the proper order at the destination or so?
12:47:05 <V453000> you have the reverse train button?
12:47:51 <V453000> also, I believe newgrfs can kind of define flipped sprites when reversing, like UKRS
12:48:08 <V453000> which I believe is utter horseshit and looks likea huge bug instead of a feature, but to each their own
12:48:12 <Wolf01> it switches the train and the position of all the cars
12:48:36 <Wolf01> I would like to have the engine in the same position as before
12:49:22 <Wolf01> and maybe grfs could limit the reverse speed or disable the reverse travel completely if you don't have a caboose or a driving car at the other end
12:49:36 <Wolf01> (no limitation on base game)
12:49:47 * andythenorth needs a naming convention
12:52:18 <andythenorth> savanna or savannah?
12:52:49 <andythenorth> nice, I will use that for something
12:52:52 <andythenorth> but not this train
12:53:17 <andythenorth> Iron Horse trains are named: for designer; for place built; by real life nickname; by made up stuff
12:54:39 <V453000> I name trains by song names
12:54:51 <V453000> rather random, relatively unique, sometimes even fitting
12:54:51 <Flygon> V453000: I was suggesting being able to lay in a 3D grid fully. Not actually ditching the grid
12:55:11 <Flygon> ie. instead of having a 2D playspace with bridges and tunnels
12:55:16 <V453000> sure Flygon just go code such a game and fuck off with it already :)
12:55:19 <Wolf01> Flygon, like locomotion?
12:55:22 <Flygon> You can actually lay tracks below tracks :B
12:55:56 <Flygon> Like I said way earlier, I never said anyone's got the hutzpah to go ahead with such a large task xP
12:57:06 * andythenorth would suggest using the same time to make nml go 10% faster :P
12:57:08 <V453000> I guess I can't make webchat ignore certain users?
12:57:30 <andythenorth> everyone is grumpy today?
12:58:49 <V453000> just honest question about functionality of a software :P
12:59:58 <Wolf01> I think so, maybe they didn't eat... I didn't too but I'm just talking and not ragequitting for being ignored or if somebody attacks me
13:01:40 <andythenorth> all my trains will now be called ‘Mu mu'
13:03:09 <Wolf01> meh, 67MB to download at 7KBps
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13:08:50 <Wolf01> funny... I'm more stupid of what I thought
13:10:04 <Wolf01> AH! weird bug in 1.5.3
13:10:21 <Wolf01> all the scenarios listed twice
13:11:33 <Wolf01> andy, I can't even listen to that music, sorry :P
13:12:47 <andythenorth> I’ll listen for you
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13:21:50 <Wolf01> can trains reverse at waypoints?
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13:33:39 <andythenorth> can anyone here decode NARS 2 with grfcodec?
13:33:47 <andythenorth> "Cannot write to sprites/silence.wav: No such file or directory”
13:34:28 <andythenorth> worked on second attempt
13:40:49 <Wolf01> andy, do you know a grf with buffer stops as objects instead of stations?
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13:48:33 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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14:28:58 <Wolf01> mmmh, it seems I'm not able to convert track types anymore... I'm using NuTracks 2 and Useless Tracks
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14:41:10 <_dp_> btw, is it currently possible to define production callbacks in newgrf without defining industries?
14:43:36 <frosch123> you can define new industries which look the same as the original ones
14:43:47 <frosch123> for example "manual industries" does that
14:45:26 <_dp_> can you do that for industries defined in other newgrfs?
14:46:46 <frosch123> then you need to fork the newgrf
14:46:53 <frosch123> like firs -> manpower industries for example
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14:47:22 <frosch123> but firs already has no randomness :op
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14:49:33 <_dp_> yeah, and eventually you'll end up with mega-grf that does everything just to configure server :p
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14:57:22 <Wolf01> mmmh I think something fucked up upgrading newgrfs, nutracks2 doesn't seem to work well
14:58:22 <drac_boy> wolf01 not to sound silly but think its actually the track grf itself or actually just another grf thats causing it to act weird?
14:59:04 <_dp_> how smooth economy was introduced, is there some discussion left from that time?
14:59:05 <Wolf01> no, I think it messed up the parameters
14:59:36 <Wolf01> I think it should be avoided to upgrade from 1.x to 2.x specially if the parameters were changed
14:59:40 <FLHerne> Wolf01: Um, you upgraded from Nutracks v1 to v2 in a running game?
14:59:52 <_dp_> it's nice we have it, but it complicates things so much now :(
14:59:55 <Wolf01> I upgraded the grfs and made a new game
14:59:56 <drac_boy> ah ok, didn't know much about nutrack so wasn't sure what to really say
15:00:03 <FLHerne> Ah, good, that would _definitely_ have beena bad idea
15:02:17 <Wolf01> eh, it messed up with parameters really bad
15:05:47 <drac_boy> I've only used the cz rails for quite a long time atm
15:07:44 <frosch123> _dp_: it orginates from before there was newgrf support
15:08:43 <frosch123> it would not have been added, if there was newgrf support
15:09:03 <frosch123> since it just does not make sense to add something as disputeable to the game
15:09:25 <frosch123> addons are way better for people with different opinions and interests
15:10:47 <drac_boy> I think I recall I first loved it because it could have or not have the goddamn useless rail fences showing anytime I wanted to at whim :)
15:11:07 <drac_boy> but as its been quite a while I guess the parameter probably is also now popular in other grfs too?
15:11:21 <frosch123> _dp_: added in openttd 0.3.3
15:11:37 <frosch123> 2004-07-14, four months after the initial release
15:11:51 <frosch123> newgrf stuff was added in 2008
15:12:07 <Wolf01> I think I'll start to do grfs, no sets, every little thing has its own grf one engine per grf
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15:13:38 <Wolf01> also no graphics, only boxes of different colour
15:13:58 <frosch123> too bad, the boxes in cets only have one colour
15:14:13 <drac_boy> wolf01 have fun trying to organize 200+ grfs in one single grf manager window then? :)
15:14:34 <Wolf01> yes, something like that
15:15:00 <_dp_> I hate how this game is completely broken without newgrfs
15:15:47 <_dp_> I get why it was so in original ttd, it's a sp game and they needed some twist to it
15:15:57 <frosch123> drac_boy: dp is one of those who think there is only one way to play the game. he hates everything that is not like he wants it to be, and he is annoyed that he has to use addons to make stuff like he wants them to
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15:16:00 <Wolf01> but I'll think I'll do then in 2CC, I should be able to draw stripes on boxes
15:16:49 <_dp_> drac_boy, lots of bs mechanics, crazy imbalanced economy, blocking stuff like authority and so it
15:16:56 <_dp_> with no freaking way to turn them off
15:17:05 <drac_boy> dp you've got a lot of things wrong
15:17:08 <Wolf01> that's how the game was meant
15:17:18 <drac_boy> the mayor never blocks you unless you're being a stupid twat with landscape :)
15:17:42 <drac_boy> and as for imbalanced...maybe you should play with original-capacity wagons and you'll see that the big coal mine suddenly doesn't seem so big either?
15:17:42 <frosch123> and even then, it is very easy to calm then down
15:17:51 <frosch123> only noobs fail with town authorities
15:18:20 <drac_boy> frosch heh, the only time I have problem is when its unusually heavily treed around the town and I need to level things a bit to be able to finally place the station platform itself :)
15:18:25 <_dp_> I don't think there is only way to play, there are plenty and all of them require tons of work to get at least something set up
15:18:31 <Milek7> oh, so i am not only one who want to disable local authorities :D
15:18:34 <drac_boy> (aka lower elevation towns in some arctic maps)
15:19:17 <drac_boy> at least for temperate maps its easy to run bus service for a while first to get high mayor rating before finally tnt-ing the station platform into place
15:20:11 <_dp_> I'm not saying authorities are hard, they are just greenpeace in disguise which is bs imo
15:20:33 <drac_boy> wolf01 the only one thing I could hate giving up would be the 'only accept cargo when train shows up' feature in ttdxp when compared to how ttdx dumps all cargos at any touching station even if you did not want that on purpose
15:21:22 <drac_boy> dp you saying that its somehow greenpeace's fault if you want to evict a tower full of office workers? :)
15:21:36 <_dp_> also if you like authorities it's fine with me, but why not ad setting for disabling it?
15:22:20 <frosch123> it's fine if it coded correctly
15:22:27 <drac_boy> better answer: maybe stop messing trees too much in first place?
15:22:36 <frosch123> it's not fine if it is just dumped with i don't know what it causes and what else happens to it
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15:22:57 <frosch123> i am fine with adding it, but i am not fine with having to do the work
15:23:30 <frosch123> like more height levels was dumped onto ottd, and now a whole year after, the map generators are still completely broken
15:23:39 <frosch123> and you have to use 1.4.x to generate a good desert map
15:24:17 <Milek7> ignoring opinion when building is the best solution
15:24:45 <drac_boy> btw frosch whats this 'cets' you mentioned earlier on?
15:24:52 <Milek7> completly disabling calculation can broke gamescript reling on GSTown.GetRating
15:25:19 <V453000> Eddi's glorious train set which will never get sprites drawn drac_boy , so it uses just boxes for now
15:25:21 <_dp_> well, I brought up authorities just for example
15:26:03 <drac_boy> ohh trainset...I think I vaguely recall seeing that forum topic ... it was some kind of european-biased version of 2cc?
15:26:24 <V453000> yes just yet another shitload of engines train set without a real gameplay impact
15:26:56 <drac_boy> well I would have liked the idea if it was around tbh... I quitted with 2cc a long time ago because of the simple problem: too many repeating locomotives and sometimes even weird price differences
15:27:08 <drac_boy> but I dunno tbh, I'm already contend enough with dbset and other older sets
15:27:27 <frosch123> i think cets was headnig for 500+ engines or so :p
15:27:40 <V453000> well mainly from the point of view of a newgrf author, it is just retarded to draw 600 trains if the player ever uses 10
15:27:54 <V453000> throughout the game it has only like 10 strong trains at their period
15:27:59 <V453000> rest is just purchase menu clutter
15:28:25 <_dp_> btm, I'm even fine with authorities in most cases, so not even looking for complete disabling
15:28:30 <V453000> and to top it all off, each cets sprite has like 32 views instead of 8 to make it even worse
15:28:39 <drac_boy> 500 would be a bit hard unless you tried to use a wide range of 1800-2100 locomotives from even the tiny countries such as cyprus
15:28:51 <_dp_> so I'm more looking for SetRating function to selectively avoid it
15:29:05 <V453000> well hard, define hard. taking a random wiki page with list of trains -> realistic as fuck
15:29:24 <drac_boy> at least if cets was ottd-only it could even have a few gauges in mind too :)
15:29:24 <V453000> I can say though, that NUTS has like 40 types of trains where each of them remains having some sort of utility
15:29:40 <V453000> can't imagine a realistic train set utilize more than 5 at the same time
15:30:02 <drac_boy> 2ft, 3ft, 4ft, and 5ft ... the last one would mainly be spain/russia I believe
15:30:02 <V453000> gauges just make the player confused what train is on which track, but they give no gameplay effect at all
15:30:11 <_dp_> though I didn't rething authorities yes after I figured how to selectively enable magic bulldozer
15:30:27 <michi_cc> V453000: CETS has a more - dare I say it - historical realism context. I'm fully aware that this equals a load of horse manure to you, but luckily there are different kinds of humans are the universe would be a pretty boring place.
15:30:41 <drac_boy> I've used ng a lot for obvious reasons (as HEQS isn't perfect because it can't share the same signal infrastruces anyway)
15:31:18 <V453000> still, 600*32 is just huge amount of effort, not considering wagons and liveries
15:31:28 <drac_boy> used to love the serbia grf for that reason (till I rather found other trains more interesting in temperate climate but thats another story)
15:31:40 <drac_boy> I think the arthour is still around but can't recall
15:32:14 <V453000> my main point is, what benefit do you get from drawing that insane list of trains
15:32:39 <V453000> for 99% players only mess and clutter, for 1% train ultra nerds from germany, some joy
15:33:22 <Milek7> hm, submitting whatever to bugtracker is wasting time
15:35:24 <drac_boy> ah was easy to find still .. its from a wile e. coyote (heh?) and he's still active
15:35:27 <_dp_> Milek7, that's not quite true
15:36:12 <_dp_> Milek7, honestly you patches look kinda weird to me even though we're probably facing the same problem
15:36:28 <V453000> well OpenTTD is pretty dead so you could consider anythign a waste of time ;P
15:37:45 <V453000> most of the new features are so pain in the ass / problematic to get done that they will never be / will not be attempted for compatibility/whatever reasons, newgrf development has split into two halves of 8bpp and 32bpp and both halves almost died, ...
15:38:22 <drac_boy> oh before I forget one reason I came here, any of you know if you only can code wagons to show up either behind or in middle of locomotive or could you maybe technically code it that it would accept up to 2 intermediate wagons than put the rest behind?
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15:38:32 <drac_boy> if not its ok, just had to ask what the limit in coding could be
15:39:08 <Wolf01> in the middle of a locomotive?
15:39:12 <_dp_> Milek7, well, hard to tell exactly without spending some time digging into a problem
15:39:22 <V453000> I guess it should, yes, just put a switch with position in consist there drac_boy ?
15:39:24 <drac_boy> wolf01 sorry I shoudl rephase a multi-units locomotive
15:39:33 <_dp_> Milek7, one thing for sure, "easier to add" isn't a very convincing reason :p
15:40:03 <Milek7> less code to change = less bugs
15:41:51 <Wolf01> drac_boy, so you want something like [LOCO][CAR1][CAR2][LOCO][CAR3][CAR4]...?
15:42:10 <Wolf01> with the 2 locos being a single one multi headed?
15:42:53 <_dp_> Milek7, for a single patch mb, but cumbersome logic is harder to support later
15:42:54 <drac_boy> yeah..also trying find a photo now just to make it less confusing to understand perhaps
15:45:01 <Milek7> _dp_: while disabling rating calculation, what value use in GSTown.GetRating?
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15:45:45 <Milek7> ignoring don't breaks anything, disabling can broke something relying on that
15:46:33 <Milek7> and it even shouldn't be disabled, because gamescript using town rating to calculate growth is very good
15:47:25 <Milek7> but this patch is for that local authority can't block building/destroying
15:47:36 <Milek7> not disabling rating completly
15:48:47 <Wolf01> drac_boy ok, I think I understood the result you want, I've seen some examples in different places, as for now you can only append a new engine after the second head of a multi headed engine, and then you can more wagons
15:48:55 <_dp_> Milek7, using rating for cb is very stupid imo, but I think I got your point
15:49:12 <drac_boy> but for a grf I'm not too nitpicky I can just choose to only add wagons to the tail alone :)
15:51:13 <drac_boy> at least with modern diesel/electric sets its too easy anyway
15:56:04 <Wolf01> oh, I thought you was trying to do something like the cow-calf set
15:57:15 <_dp_> Milek7, so leave rating as it is but remove it's blocking capabilities, yeah, sounds logical
15:57:58 <_dp_> Milek7, but remebrer that in vanila game rating is only used for blocking so it's exactly the same as disabling calculation unless some external gs is involved
15:59:53 <drac_boy> either way more basic question: I'm not sure if I'm the first one to wonder about this but if you wanted a single vehicle that could accept either pax&mail or only pax at refit option you could just use a dummy cargo id for the second cargo slot in the latter case?
16:06:04 <_dp_> Milek7, as for town authority it has nothing to do with town zones, it's a completely independent zone that is related to that authority blocking and station naming
16:06:51 <_dp_> Milek7, it existence in game mb questionable, but it's definitely not a gs issue
16:10:50 <_dp_> meh, "existence" is probably not a right word to use here but don't know a better one anyway :p
16:19:39 <drac_boy> v453000 I know what you mentioned about tons of locomotives but even then you think that for some grfs theres still a place for having a few garratts and conventional locomotives introduced together since its more of an cosmetic look-at-train than a performance thing? (after all I'm sure that in TE a 0-4-0+0-4-0 and 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 are probably quite similar)
16:23:18 <V453000> I think visual variety is awesome in any case, but best done by random sprites
16:23:29 <V453000> with one functional vehicle
16:24:20 <V453000> it doesn't have to introduce a new vehicle model, many things can be done with graphics switches and even performance switches
16:27:09 <drac_boy> hmm you know what I didn't think of that before.. livery refit couldn't be too hard as the articulated parts could be conveyed by an invisible sprite for the non-articulated version
16:27:19 <drac_boy> sounds like a better idea already thank you :p
16:27:23 * drac_boy goes back to more scribbling
16:33:05 <V453000> cargo subrefit is great but I would use that as little as possible too
16:33:55 <V453000> for example, nuts passenger trains are recolourable to various colours. But default when you build it is company colour. And then if the player wants further control, they can manually refit to whatever colour then want / random colour.
16:34:18 <V453000> nowadays I would just ditch the CC, use random as default, and allow the various colours by subrefit still.
16:34:43 <drac_boy> yeah I'm not too grand on dual cargo but the problem is with that sometimes I do not want mail at a particular station .. thats the one major annoyance with ANY planes in the game atm :)
16:35:40 <V453000> in my opinion, a newgrf should be "put it in game, it just works without other hassle". That extends to everything, from huge amount of parameters / bad specific defaults, through things like this. Having to refit your engine in order to look nice should only happen when you really want it for a very specific reason
16:36:00 <V453000> it doesn't have to be dual cargo
16:36:06 <V453000> all cargoes can have subrefit
16:37:09 <V453000> the list in the refit menu even is small, it only has the cargo names and to get the subrefit name to select it, you click the cargo first
16:37:22 <V453000> which is awesome, it doesn't clutter the list but gives control
16:38:02 <V453000> also, if you select your trains to have yellow livery, and you autoreplace to trains which allow that subrefit, it even works with autoreplacing
16:38:05 <V453000> same for random/whatever
16:38:48 <V453000> where if you had, say, 10 different vehicle models just for various graphics, you would have to autorefit each of the 10 types individually ... extra clicks, but annoying clicks.
16:38:55 <V453000> also purchase menu x10 is just ehh
16:39:26 <V453000> nuts trains have 17 colour variants per vehicle, which would be even more :) though to make it nice you don't need as many
16:42:08 <drac_boy> I was never too grand on player colours either, especially when its too inflexible like why is it coloring a locomotive brown when I specifically asked for yellow passenger wagon colors? :)
16:42:21 <drac_boy> but not going to argue against it either tho
16:42:36 <V453000> even graphically CC are shit when used too much
16:42:41 <V453000> CC should be just stripes or details
16:42:57 <V453000> especially some of them like white or orange are just pure bullshit to draw for
16:43:10 <V453000> with 32bpp the issue is a bit different, doing more research on that soon
16:43:57 <drac_boy> at least I know there are also some trainsets that disregards cc but still offer 2 or few different choices of livery in the refit menu
16:44:38 <drac_boy> as for white and orange heh .. yeah can't argue, some colors just don't seem to be meant to be
16:45:50 <V453000> I think a mixture is the best way to do it
16:45:58 <drac_boy> whats worser is certain ottd player colors, when you're in a multiplayer map and wondering why you built that rail station there but get a "not owned by you" error dialog when you try bulldoze it and its only from there that you then realize its a very slight different shade of yellow than yours :-s
16:46:02 <V453000> yes, variety/liveries, but keep at least a little stripe of CC
16:46:06 <V453000> else company colours are confusing
16:46:14 <V453000> also helps in multiplayer
16:46:36 <V453000> then your screen has shitty callibration :P
16:46:54 <V453000> on my screen openttd yellow and orange aren't that hard to tell apart
16:48:12 <V453000> and I have a rather cheap monitor, nothing graphics oriented
16:50:08 <drac_boy> well when you don't have the two next to others in same viewpoint its easy to see why someone could think it was theirs not his
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16:50:41 <drac_boy> and also not as silly but the default gray is also probably the same shade as the not-player-owned station color too :)
16:50:53 <V453000> idk, I got used to orange vs yellow very quickly
16:51:08 <drac_boy> I've used it a few times and I think someone once asked me why I'm at all oil rigs ... I was like "umm huh?"
16:51:34 <drac_boy> yep..funny question but I can see where it came from tho :)
16:53:28 <drac_boy> anyway think will take a break from all the typing (not in here...in that text file window!) for now, you have fun ok? :)
16:53:50 <drac_boy> oh and someone give dp a key to the city hall's library maybe hehehe :)
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17:31:08 <andythenorth> how’s the entire V453000 collection of people and animals?
17:32:08 <andythenorth> wees in its pants a lot
17:43:51 <andythenorth> lo supermop_ also :P
17:43:58 <andythenorth> silly old tab-complete
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17:59:28 <Wolf01> blinking yellow and red, should I stop there for a while or at the next one?
18:09:58 <_dp_> I think I found why production fluctuates in firs, gui shows last month production and it may differ a little due to amount of production ticks in month not being constant.
18:10:11 <supermop_> not sure what to work on today
18:13:54 <andythenorth> _dp_: some months there are 8 ticks, some months 9
18:19:24 <_dp_> if there was a setting in game to disable random production changes, would firs define callbacks anyway? :)
18:24:18 <andythenorth> how much of the newgrf callbacks do you understand so far? :)
18:27:36 <V453000> have a look at how yeti works XD
18:28:12 <_dp_> depends on what you call understanding xD
18:28:27 <_dp_> I know some from code perspective but never tried to write a newgrf)
18:28:55 <andythenorth> ok so FIRS is handling the random and monthly callbacks for multiple reasons....
18:28:56 <_dp_> Tried to look how firs is made but that's way too cryptic %)
18:29:00 <andythenorth> - to prevent closure
18:29:21 <andythenorth> - to prevent OpenTTD changing production multiplier / production rate (can never remember which is which)
18:29:47 <andythenorth> - to allow closure (for secondary industry, if the parameter is set for that)
18:30:16 <andythenorth> I can’t remember if it does anything else with them, probably not
18:30:24 <andythenorth> the rest will be on the production cb I think
18:30:51 <V453000> == much beyond a scope of a setting in compare to base game
18:31:07 <V453000> especially visible with YETI or even ECS where the production mechanisms are completely different
18:31:11 <V453000> idk how ECS does it but ye
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18:39:01 <andythenorth> it’s much better when people just send me sprites
18:39:07 <andythenorth> I don’t like drawing my own trains :)
18:45:23 <_dp_> well, there are three production change callbacks: initial, monthly and random
18:45:48 <_dp_> it seems random callback is only handled to disable it
18:46:04 <_dp_> and all production mechanics is handled my monthly
18:48:49 <frosch123> monthly is used as monthly, it keeps track of cargo delivered over time
18:49:01 <frosch123> firs does not do any production changes
18:49:18 <_dp_> yeah, I'm thinking that if there was a setting in game grfs can stop handling random one and let player decide
18:49:31 <frosch123> still firs has no production changes
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18:49:40 <frosch123> your settings would do nothing in case of firs
18:50:00 <frosch123> it's just completely independent mechanics
18:51:24 <monsted> can you add more NewGRF mods to an existing save? i may just be blind here.
18:51:46 <frosch123> it's hidden, because it breaks the save in various cases
18:52:13 <_dp_> frosch123, if it really has no production changes then setting will work just fine
18:52:20 <monsted> i started a FIRS world without FIRS compatible trains...
18:52:35 <andythenorth> monsted: start a new one :)
18:52:47 <frosch123> monsted: enable scenario developer tools, add the vehicle grf
18:52:48 <_dp_> frosch123, but if it has some internal way to track/calculate production and changes it regularly in monthly callback then yeah it will break
18:52:57 <frosch123> never remove a newgrf, never complain about something breaking :)
18:54:49 <monsted> now that i'm here, maybe i should just build a good collection of grfs instead of guessing...
18:54:57 <_dp_> frosch123, but as far as I can tell it doesn't, seems to return 0 in callback mostly
18:56:21 <frosch123> as said, it only uses the monthly callback to track amounts of cargo delivered each month
18:59:09 <andythenorth> monsted: any made by ‘andythenorth’, I’d avoid those :)
18:59:14 <andythenorth> one or the other
19:07:36 <_dp_> frosch123, well, then I don't see why it wouldn't work
19:09:02 <_dp_> frosch123, whole scheme sounds pretty logical: newgrf can either define random callback and do whatever it wants, or skip it and let standard handler kick in which will honor players setting
19:10:43 <_dp_> frosch123, and ofc right now it doesn't work that way, if grf doesn't define just random handler it will get original economy, not smooth one
19:13:04 <frosch123> i don't get what you try to tell me
19:13:09 <frosch123> did you ever play with firs?
19:13:46 <frosch123> it does no have any production changes
19:13:55 <frosch123> your settings will not break it, any they will not affect it
19:14:57 <andythenorth> you are welcome to change economy as you see fit, it won’t affect newgrf
19:15:13 <andythenorth> newgrfs insulate themselves from economy XOR let OpenTTD decide
19:15:39 <_dp_> frosch123, I'm trying to propose scheme that will work with both standard industries and newgrfs if they want it
19:16:08 <_dp_> it probably won't affect any existing industry set as I bet they all define random callback
19:16:53 <_dp_> just to stop random changes xD
19:17:53 <Wolf01> the problem is that when you load a grf which has its own callbacks, that setting should alert the user that any change does nothing
19:18:41 <V453000> just move the setting to cfg only and make smooth economy default
19:18:50 <_dp_> Wolf01, well, mb, but it's already ignored silently
19:18:55 <V453000> I don't believe anybody uses any other setting voluntarily
19:19:10 <_dp_> V453000, frosh does it seems :p
19:19:46 <Wolf01> I know it's ignored silently... as I know how many times I changed it with industry grfs loaded and "well shit, I leave it so"
19:19:46 <V453000> well, he can edit it through cfg? ;P
19:23:15 <_dp_> V453000, I hope. But he also proposed doing some flexible "economy speed" setting instead of having preset economies
19:24:20 <_dp_> V453000, so I was considering that too but can't see any way to replace both current economies with some settings like that %)
19:27:21 <_dp_> V453000, also trying to think of something that is useful not only for standart industry set to counter "you can do it with newgrf" argument xD
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19:31:23 <_dp_> it's actually quite weird to see that currently if newgrf defines only initial production callback it's forced to use original economy
19:31:30 <_dp_> wonder why it's done that way
19:35:14 <V453000> the default industries are kind of ok
19:37:46 <_dp_> V453000, yeah, I actually like them more than any other set
19:38:06 <_dp_> looking forward to firs2 though
19:38:08 <V453000> but yeah two or three simple settings like speed, max production and randomness would be nice
19:39:25 <_dp_> V453000, yeah, I tried, but it was a while ago
19:39:28 <andythenorth> _dp_: not wanting to discourage you (patches are nice to see), but I can’t forsee anyone committing additional industry mechanics
19:39:34 <andythenorth> industry code has enough spiders in it
19:39:40 <andythenorth> and newgrf solves all problems :)
19:39:42 <V453000> the way how yeti industries work is imo pretty great
19:40:29 <andythenorth> you are objective also
19:40:34 <andythenorth> so it must be true :)
19:41:42 <frosch123> V453000: it it still the random example code i gave you somewhen? :p
19:41:54 <_dp_> V453000, it takes few hours to bootstrap town in yeti, I usually don't play that long))
19:42:13 <_dp_> V453000, and without that it's just "take yeti everywhere" which isn't that great
19:42:17 <V453000> frosch123: not exactly, Sylf redid it entirely I believe
19:42:46 <frosch123> ok, at least some effort went into it then :)
19:42:47 <V453000> I mainly meant the operation of industries dp, processig 10% per -time-
19:42:51 <V453000> for quick responsiveness
19:43:29 <V453000> and take yeti everywhere indeed sounds basic but since each of the 3 chains does something different for you in return, it motivates the player to use everything eventually :) and you don't really need to worry about towns
19:44:33 <_dp_> V453000, ah, well, dunno what to say about it, I mostly remember just general strategies
19:44:57 <V453000> sure, in this context only the production callback is interesting
19:46:03 <_dp_> V453000, though iirc that 10% is one of the reasons bootstraping towns take too long...
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19:46:22 <V453000> idk what do you mean by boostrapping but k
19:47:09 <_dp_> V453000, delivering stuff to town to get more yetis from it, bring them back and to get even more stuff and so on
19:47:43 <V453000> well connecting multiple yeti yard is kind of the key to victory there :P
19:48:44 <_dp_> V453000, coz other stategy is to simply collect yetis from all over the map and some players can do that very fast
19:49:07 <V453000> omg players can do it very fast = is bad feature? :D or what do you mean
19:50:02 <V453000> first people connect -some- workers, then they try to use all industry types, then the whole cycle grows in production until network breaks, player expands the network, stuff grows, repeat :)
19:50:39 <_dp_> V453000, I mean I don't like that "build fast" is better strategy, kinda defies whole point of industry set imo
19:51:00 <V453000> I do not see how build fast is related to yeti at all tbh
19:51:08 <V453000> whether you build it quickly or slowly is completely irrelevant
19:51:28 <V453000> it is like you said firs is bad because it has 104389 industry types
19:52:06 <frosch123> has anyone ever played the campaing in factorio?
19:52:07 <_dp_> V453000, bootstrapping town takes time no matter how fast you build
19:52:33 <_dp_> V453000, it takes about 3 hours of gameplay for it to become superior than collecting yetis)
19:52:39 <V453000> about as much time as delivering supplies to firs industries
19:52:49 <V453000> probably vastly less as you need less steps to get there
19:52:58 <_dp_> V453000, and, yeah, I'm mostly talking about short goal games here as that's what I usually play))
19:53:08 <V453000> depends on your settings, train set, speed, amount of worker yards, ...
19:53:10 <frosch123> firs has harbors, you do not need to produce any suppleis yourself
19:53:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: no, is campaign good?
19:53:31 <V453000> well then there is no reason we should be talking any further as yeti is oriented to be on long term play for good players
19:53:33 <frosch123> usually i ignore scenarios and campaings
19:53:42 <frosch123> so, i wondered whether i missed anything
19:53:49 <andythenorth> I quite like campaigns
19:53:56 <frosch123> i will continue to assume "no" otherwise :)
19:54:24 <V453000> it isn't very developed / focus of the game :P
19:55:07 <frosch123> yeah, that's was i expect :)
19:55:21 <_dp_> V453000, well, probably should've started with that then, didn't know it had specific orientation like that)
19:56:09 <V453000> I would like to add more features but I can't code them and have other newgrf priorities rather than learning to code industries
19:56:17 <V453000> but yeah, for competitive play yeti isn't all that great
19:56:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you know how V and dp managed to shift the discussion to comparing primary industry mechanics (production changes) with seconary industry mechanics (processing 10% of cargo at a time)?
19:56:26 <V453000> but then, which industry set is good for competitive play?
19:56:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: no idea :)
19:56:40 <andythenorth> today’s discussions are weird
19:56:42 <frosch123> V453000: openttd is not good for competetive play :p
19:56:45 <V453000> esp since openttd in general is probably the worst game for competing in general
19:56:46 <andythenorth> I like talking about zebra’s more
19:57:16 <frosch123> V453000: we need "openttd standard" and "openttd wild" editions :p
19:57:41 <_dp_> V453000, standard one? ;)
19:58:02 <V453000> randomness = more "unfair" playing?
19:58:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, you also give animal names to all the engines now?
19:58:12 <V453000> sounds perfectly competitive to me :D
19:58:16 <_dp_> and yeah, trying my best to make it as competitive as possible xD
19:58:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: well that railcar is called a Doodlebug in the US
19:58:42 <V453000> well, good luck with that :D
19:58:44 <andythenorth> and an African ‘doodlebug’ is an ‘antlion'
19:58:54 <V453000> /me goes make the best train set ever meanwhile :P
19:59:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, i see that after looking up doodlebug in a dictionary :p
20:00:05 <frosch123> when do you need animal vocabulary? :p
20:00:28 * andythenorth thought he could use NARS sprites for this
20:00:36 <V453000> and you thought nuts was too animalistic
20:00:39 <andythenorth> but they are 1px or 2px too small depending on angle
20:00:54 <_dp_> V453000, well, it's quite competitive already if you ask me, especially on fixed-game-length type of servers (not fixed goal)
20:01:07 <frosch123> V453000: "educated horse" is way easier than "doodlebug"
20:01:23 <V453000> me wins points over andythenorth
20:01:26 <_dp_> V453000, some randomness is fine, if it's not in very crucial place
20:01:34 <andythenorth> V453000: it’s not competitive
20:01:49 * andythenorth had better go repaint another NARS sprite
20:02:15 <frosch123> competitive grf creation?
20:02:44 <frosch123> competitive bug fixing?
20:02:56 <V453000> we compete with andythenorth who can waste more time without a release
20:03:23 <andythenorth> I can’t release FIRS because I can’t play test it
20:03:27 <frosch123> V453000: mb won that for life
20:03:55 <V453000> well I havent released anything in a year or so either
20:04:22 <V453000> rawr 0.0.2 was so shit that I got bored
20:04:23 <frosch123> you posted some teaser screenshots
20:04:25 <V453000> DOOM was just a bad idea
20:04:28 <frosch123> so you are on the correct road :p
20:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 15.15.15 might still be happening :p
20:04:51 <V453000> yeah BRIX is on the right path but I am making trains instead now
20:05:17 <V453000> teaser pictures ain't enough, see bad brett :P
20:06:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: when i google for doodlebug, i get a lot of tractors
20:07:22 <frosch123> hm, but yeah, also some trains which look similar
20:07:48 <frosch123> would it be too silly to name trains and rvs the same? :p
20:07:51 <V453000> doodlebug was in US set or somewhere
20:07:57 <V453000> so I hereby declare realism
20:15:14 <_dp_> is there an easy way to see what callbacks grf handles?
20:20:16 <andythenorth> you can inspect industries also in game
20:22:02 <_dp_> don't have code for all grfs I'm interested in
20:25:54 <_dp_> also it's already clear that firs, ecs and yeti define all callbacks :)
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20:31:39 * _dp_ printed firs callbacks mask
20:49:13 <_dp_> sweet, firs doesn't define production change callbacks for hotel because it's life type is set to BLACK_HOLE...
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21:10:11 <andythenorth> symmetrical trains ftw
21:10:14 <andythenorth> only 4 sprites to draw
21:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't matter asymptotically
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21:55:56 <supermop_> andythenorth: banh mi horse?
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22:35:39 <_dp_> frosch123, is it safe to rename setting?
22:36:45 <frosch123> it will throw an error on startup that the cfg is invalid, but that is gone once you change some setting and it is safed again
22:38:26 <_dp_> frosch123, and what if I deprecate old one (do _old thingie) and add new, is it better?
22:38:53 <frosch123> the error message is about some unknown name in openttd.cfg
22:39:00 <frosch123> anyway, we removed settings before
22:39:27 <_dp_> frosch123, well, I just wondering which way is better
22:39:50 <frosch123> you need the _old one to convert savegames
22:40:02 <frosch123> unless you can load it into the same var and then convert
22:40:58 <_dp_> frosch123, shouldn't be any problems with converting it
22:56:03 <_dp_> frosch123, and if I change type from bool to uint8 is it safe to assume that true will become 1 (and false 0)?
22:56:50 <_dp_> frosch123, I know it sounds a bit weird, but with c++ it never hurts to doublecheck xD
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23:14:26 * andythenorth extending train height
23:14:32 <andythenorth> will I have tunnel problems?
23:17:58 <andythenorth> pikka has some double-level pax things
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continue to next day ⏵
