IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-15
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00:02:37 <drac_boy> wolf01 well....that first bus indeed looks rather strange
00:03:08 <drac_boy> and supercheese .. "truck" buses are actually somewhat typical in some countries around the africa or south europe areas .. I forgot exactly where but I've seen many photos taken of them
00:03:33 <Supercheese> yeah I can believe it, but it looks very very strange to me
00:03:55 <Wolf01> I've never seen a truck bus here
00:03:57 <Supercheese> US regulatory agencies would have a fit if such a thing was attempted here
00:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the amount of photos that exist of something is not really proportional with how common it is
00:04:04 <drac_boy> naturally eg france/usa/etc don't even allow them due to the usual "no passengers in a trailer when it is moving" kind of regulations (thats why a vehicle+trailer rv always has a small daytime interior in the vehicle half itself)
00:04:14 <drac_boy> supercheese see what I just said heh ^
00:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there have definitely been busses with trailers
00:05:30 <Wolf01> yes, but they are articulated buses, not completely separated vehicles
00:07:17 <drac_boy> these were done due to the old buses being still reliable but not lowfloor-ready so rather than scrapping/selling the buses they simply added these low-floor units
00:08:21 <drac_boy> the window line difference says it all if you noticed
00:09:19 <drac_boy> funny thing about the swiss one tho is, the trailer has no motors .. but yet I haven't heard of any of them struggling through the snowy roads (the fact theres lot of slopes everywhere also says something too)
00:09:35 <drac_boy> probably the swiss people knew what a real winter-grip tire was :)
00:09:57 <drac_boy> (compared to eg the ottawa buses here that runs on same tire from summer through winter too often and they wonder why their buses get stuck a lot!)
00:11:06 <sim-al2> Wait I thought most people "up north" so to speak had winter tires
00:12:25 <drac_boy> sim-a12 some crappy cities in canada have no clue .. whats offending is that the ottawa politics basically said "our climate is special that we can't just buy any winter tires yet" ... thats literally ignoring finland/switzerland/etc which have buses running on true winter tires of all the things
00:12:55 <drac_boy> I know about that quote because I actually read it in the meeting announcements some time ago
00:13:54 <drac_boy> the irregular roofline doesn't surprise me ... its probably following the floor height of the original trailer chassis me think?
00:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the bus type that i linked was usually driven without trailer if the route went through hilly terrain
00:17:53 <drac_boy> oh and I forgot the usa city name now but on the topic of slight unusual things .. there was one usa city with trolleybus services ... and during certain winter days they always stationed a heavy haul tow truck at the bottom of a certain long steep street to push up any trolleybus that came this way
00:18:11 <drac_boy> apparently the roads were sometimes a bit too slick there a few days a year!
00:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that sounds like san francisco :p
00:19:00 <Supercheese> San Fran grades are steeeep
00:19:03 <sim-al2> I think San Francisco has had lots of trouble with buses stalling
00:19:11 <drac_boy> does it even snow in san francisco? :P
00:19:45 <sim-al2> Too close to the ocean, it's just north of what is essentially a Mediterrean climate
00:19:46 <Supercheese> if it ever snowed hard in San Fran, the city would be completely paralyzed
00:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, how should i know...
00:20:06 <Supercheese> same goes for most of California
00:20:18 <drac_boy> sim-a12 little funny fact: sometimes the cable cars can have trouble re-engaging the cable after coming to a uphill red light stop and so you have these friendly bus or truck giving them a slow nudge to get a bit speed to try engage cable
00:20:22 <sim-al2> Coastal California, inland is far different
00:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> california is huge... it spans several climate zones
00:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and in mountaneous areas you have these micro climates where every valley has its own unique climate
00:21:45 <sim-al2> Yeah, nothing like desert, temperate grassland, and temperate rainforest in the same state :)
00:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like you mushed spain, england and the alps together
00:22:49 <drac_boy> sim-a12 the real reason these nudges happens is because if the cable car from a standstill (and gravity working against it) tried to forcefully clamp onto the cable .. it would risk shredding the cable braids itself
00:23:03 <drac_boy> you know what I'm saying? this is what I have heard from some people watching these things
00:23:46 <sim-al2> Yeah, I know they use wood in the grip to ease the wear
00:25:03 <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw did you know that there was actually a small cable car (vehicle even looked exactly like san franciso's) outside calfornia? it was on expo ground too
00:25:19 <Supercheese> Spokane, WA used to have cable cars too
00:25:32 <Supercheese> they ditched them though
00:25:48 <Supercheese> once buses got powerful enough and such
00:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: sometimes you just need them to be obsolete at the right time for someone to say "hey we should preserve them for tourism"
00:27:23 <sim-al2> There's been some complaints in SF about a private shuttle bus some company. It runs straight up one of the hills using just a regular coach bus, so it's slow and pretty loud
00:27:35 <Supercheese> well Spokane also doesn't have the crazy slopes that SF does
00:28:06 <sim-al2> The earliest railways used some cable haulage too, since steam locomotives in the 1830s weren't all that powerful
00:28:19 <Supercheese> those cable cars could ascend almost any grade at the same cable speed, crazy power available
00:28:37 <sim-al2> So they tried to keep it as level as possible, and than had one big hill that the trains would be hauled up
00:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: it also was that they didn't really trust the adhesion
00:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: they usually dropped the cable as soon as they felt comfortable
00:29:15 <sim-al2> Supercheese: Not being limited to what fits on the vehicles helps a lot too
00:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> most rack rail lines met the same fate
00:29:57 <sim-al2> Yeah, true. Apparently some of the London terminai still have steep slopes near the station because of it
00:30:12 <Supercheese> it's pretty neat that every little coach has the massive power of the stationary engines available to it, basically only limited by gripping power
00:30:52 <Supercheese> I can see why the 19th century engineers thought it was the way to go
00:31:24 <Supercheese> but of course the severe limitation of only being able to go where the cable itself goes...
00:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: with trains you don't usually use a continuously running cable. more like one engine will go down, and another go up at the same time
00:32:09 <sim-al2> The Usui pass in central Japan started out as a rack railway, since it has slopes of 6.67%. In the early 60's they removed it and replaced it with pairs of dedicated electric locomotives that helped all trains up and down, even the multiple unit trains
00:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> also, mountain cable cars mostly work on that principle as well
00:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need a lot of power that way, as the masses are mostly balanced
00:34:03 <Supercheese> ♪ Funiculí, Funiculá ♫
00:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that song is rarely sung with the original text around here :p
00:35:26 <Supercheese> I hear lots of instrumental versions, even more so than ones with lyrics
00:35:48 <Supercheese> no one here would understand the original lyrics anyway
00:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> with "not original" i mean really dirty versions that people come up when drunk :p
00:41:34 <drac_boy> btw the glasgow metro was cable-worked in a circular manner too I believe.....later the electrical power pickups were retrofitted into the tunnel
01:03:03 *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK
01:03:10 <drac_boy> sim-a12 that actually reminds me I think .. let me check...
01:05:28 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58
01:06:54 <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah they had 3rd rail ED* series (there were at least two generations as far as I recall from english pages) for banking duty .. at least one of these generation was always left in a 3-units working sets too
01:07:36 <drac_boy> and one later operation rule was that diesel-hydraulic sets had to have their drivetrain uncoupled then pushed up 'dead' due to the inherit problems in trying to match the two different locomotives together
01:08:31 <drac_boy> oh and why 3rd rail instead of overhead even although this was far from any urbans? well naturally steam era tunnel clearances was why (or thats what I think was said, I may be wrong on that particular tidbit)
01:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnels with 3rd rail was very standard...
01:11:00 <sim-al2> *Drac_boy: Which area are you talking about?
01:11:14 <drac_boy> eddi well this one .. it was overhead at the stations and beyond .. but on just usui pass itself they had to use 3rd rail instead
01:11:34 <drac_boy> there being tons of old tunnel necessariting this doesn't surprise me
01:12:02 <sim-al2> Are you sure? I don't 3rd rail was ever used on the JNR lines
01:12:39 <drac_boy> and thats one of these 3-units electric pusher on the tail
01:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnels are also the reason why on the swiss network the profile for pantographs is much smaller than in the rest of europe
01:13:26 <drac_boy> sim-a12 seeing I can't read japanese well I *suspect* but could be wrong that this is the only one example of non-overhead electrification in open country for japan
01:13:59 <drac_boy> sim-a12 'dual' was only so they could still work beyond the usui pass section itself after all :)
01:14:21 <sim-al2> Yeah, 3rd rail seems non-existant except for a few subway lines
01:15:07 <sim-al2> Makes me wonder if they used 750 VDC on the wires too
01:15:51 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well it could be dual dc voltage, you know 1500V or 3000V (whatever the usual was I forgot now) overhead but more direct <=750V for 3rd rail
01:16:03 <sim-al2> Whoops, it was 600 VDC
01:17:00 <sim-al2> Good that text is a mess
01:17:27 <drac_boy> sim-a12 this may not always be the case but third rail usually was set at similar voltage the traction motors used....basically avoided large transformers when you could just run taps directly off the pickup shoes
01:17:49 <sim-al2> I don't think 3000 VDC was ever used, the mainlines were either 1500 VDC after the 30's/40's, or some systems in the 60's onwards 20kV, 50 or 60 Hz
01:18:24 <sim-al2> Many private railways used 600 or 750 VDC, but were upped to 1500 VDC through the 50's onward
01:19:12 <sim-al2> I think this was an isolated system until the 60's, as most of the mainlines were electrified by that point
01:19:29 <drac_boy> btw you're right but I guessed right that it was 1500V tho :)
01:20:29 <sim-al2> That DMU in the picture is either a Kiha 80/82 or a 181, they were used on the non-electrified lines until nearly all were electrified, and then served in more mountainous secondary lines
01:20:31 <drac_boy> I think like 3300V or so was generally the highest mass-usage-case for dc electrification anyhow. there may had been some single instances of ever higher but they wouldn't be among the common tho
01:21:36 <sim-al2> The Soviets had a segment of ~6000 VDC, in their experience DC electrifcation was more efficient, even with the wire losses and the high efficency of AC substations the locmotive equipment represented notable losses
01:22:29 <sim-al2> But since there was already 2 systems in use, no one wanted to create a large 3rd system
01:23:09 <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 there is also one very unusual electrification from the very early day, and its main purpose was to set a speed record .. I don't think it was even used for commerical purposes .. let me check one sec
01:23:24 <sim-al2> It's always possible someone will be a high voltage DC in the future, power transmission is already going that way, and electrical equipment is getting more and more capable of doing it
01:23:42 <sim-al2> *DC electrification system
01:25:05 <Flygon> You can use an overhead third rail...
01:25:19 <sim-al2> Notably in Japan, there is now an area of 25kV, 50 Hz through the Seikan tunnel, since freight trains and Shinkansen trains will be sharing the tracks starting next month
01:25:38 <sim-al2> They do use overhead third rail on the majority of subway lines
01:26:08 <sim-al2> It's at the same height as catenary, but prevents arcing and other problems that would result from flexing
01:26:20 <drac_boy> and its 3 or 4 (I'm not certain exactly, details doesn't say much) separate lines feeding that test locomotive
01:26:33 <sim-al2> Damn looks like a full three-phase AC system
01:26:57 <sim-al2> Most three-phase systems used two wires, and the rails carried the 3rd phase
01:27:17 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well 1903 was probably a different day skills-wise
01:27:51 <sim-al2> Italian and Swiss systems were being built at that time, one Italian system used it into the 70's
01:28:17 <sim-al2> I think there are still some isolated mountain railways that still do
01:28:18 <drac_boy> actually I know one (which is still running with its original well-preserved woodie cladded locomotive) rack railway that had dual overhead wires using "half-width" bow collectors on both
01:29:02 <drac_boy> let me see if I can find that one again one sec
01:29:11 <sim-al2> Yeah, the drawback is that the wires have to be seperate, which makes switches, etc harder to wire
01:29:55 <sim-al2> Thus the widespread use of single-phase, which only needs the one wire
01:30:13 <drac_boy> well it was a one-train line so they had no turnouts I imagine :P
01:30:34 <drac_boy> look at that old classic pre-metalbody locomotive tho heh :)
01:30:53 <drac_boy> the side access panels actually faces the traction motor as I recall from my rail magazine that ran an article on this particular railway
01:31:56 <drac_boy> sim-a12 either way its nice that you seem to know your KIHA units .. I just know that a kiha is a kiha and thats about it :-s
01:32:31 <sim-al2> There's a very small chance it's a Kiha 90, I don't think many of those were produced though
01:32:50 <sim-al2> English sources are kinda of rare unfortunatly
01:33:12 <sim-al2> The important difference between the 80 and the 181 is the engines used
01:34:10 <sim-al2> On the 80, middle cars (except the dining cars where used) has two DMF17 engines, 250 hp each, driving one axle each on the adjacent bogie
01:34:31 <drac_boy> sim-a12 on the other hand I do know that the locomotive classification system mentions that there can be eg kiku which was a control car with no engines to use together with the kiha's
01:35:49 <sim-al2> The cab car has only one engine, and the dining car none (I think), because the hold decent size generators that provide electrical power
01:36:31 <drac_boy> well the dining car was likely paired with at least 2 if not more coaches hence theres probably still enough power in the entire trainset nevertheless?
01:37:00 <sim-al2> Yeah, I think the diner's power consumption is the equivalent of three regular cars
01:37:31 <drac_boy> heheh oh boy sim-a12 theres actually a few EMU and DMU sets with that sort of bonnets .. even some of these had 1950's fashion stacked headlights sticking out too
01:38:12 <sim-al2> Oh whoops, the diner does have a single propulsion engine
01:39:29 <sim-al2> The 151 series EMU and early 481/485 dual voltage trains had it too
01:39:51 <sim-al2> Also the 181, basically later production 151s
01:40:28 <drac_boy> yeah the 151 is kinda what I was thinking even :)
01:40:44 <drac_boy> some of the others had more pronounced ones
01:41:01 <sim-al2> They created the Japanese limited express (long distance) train format, with good speed capiblities compared to their predecessors (even on the narrow gauge, the 151 hit 161km/h), and distributed traction throughout the train
01:41:40 <sim-al2> Essentially, they are the predecessor to the Shinkansen
01:42:10 <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw there is one particular trainset that just has a little bonnet but nevertheless had one interesting design difference..one sec :p
01:43:51 <sim-al2> Damn, it's breaking my links
01:46:02 <sim-al2> There were many of the bonnet style in service until the 2000's/past few years, as early cab cars were mated with later 485 trains capable of operating on both 50 and 60 Hz AC power
01:47:22 <sim-al2> 481 and 483 were both dual voltage, it's just that 481 was for 60Hz, and the 483 for 50Hz, as transformers weren't as advanced in the early 60's
01:48:58 <drac_boy> imagine the front seat bench was a bit of exclusive reservation, not sure
01:49:06 <sim-al2> Oh, the Kiha 90 and Kiha 181 had only one engine per car, a much more powerful DML30 rated at 500hp, and on some later trains, over 600hp. It was a 180 degree V12 design, far more advanced than the DMF17, which dated to the 1930's
01:49:34 <sim-al2> Your link didn't work for me, it got corrupted :(
01:50:44 <drac_boy> 600hp V12? thats something compared to 550hp total from two 6-inline engines the budd rdc came configured with from factory
01:51:06 <drac_boy> at least later repowers (especially with cummins or detroit engine in some cases) had a lot more power
01:51:24 <sim-al2> Oh yeah, but the Budds were powered by engines from the early 40's
01:52:10 <sim-al2> Not even turbocharged, and 2-stroke oo
01:52:46 <drac_boy> the funny thing is one of these repower was for the VIA northern line ... the rdc could had gotten over 100kph in no time, but of course with the old rails its in-service speed was generally just about 40-60kph max
01:54:08 <sim-al2> Yeah I've read about those, they still have two engines right? It seemed almost like they removed one during the rebuild
01:54:54 <drac_boy> sim-a12 actually the way the mechanicals is set up .. its one engine per truck .. and HEP/etc has to be drawn off one or both units
01:55:12 <drac_boy> so thats why it was a bit easier to just keep them dual-power even if only one engine was really enough
01:55:53 <sim-al2> Oh huh, I thought it might be rather unpowered with only 400hp, but Vancouver island seems pretty flat
01:56:40 <drac_boy> funny enough there was a RDC-9 that had just one engine (likely just one single truck was powered by then tho) and no cabs .. call it an intermidate-only coach I suspect
01:56:43 <sim-al2> But of course the other lines in the east are probably have a little bit more going on
01:57:33 <sim-al2> Yeah, RDC-9 seems to be the result of Budd warning railroads against using regular coaches in the trains for fear of damaging the transmissions
01:59:00 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well the funny thing is noone seem to have asked budd about the rdc's being used as dead-towed coaches in a loco hauled train too
01:59:04 <sim-al2> One rather interesting way they were used, they featured full steam-pipe hookups so they could be attached to the end of a regular train and hauled to an intermediate destination
01:59:31 <sim-al2> They actually were, Budd included procedures in the manuals on how to do so
01:59:56 <sim-al2> One engine does have to kept idiling, but fuel wasn't expensive then
02:00:38 <drac_boy> I know one railroad that basically had a train that went a bit like FA1-rpo-heavyweightcoach*3-rdc-coach-rdc-coach-coach .. basically one single starting city point but terminate at three separate rural points :)
02:00:43 <sim-al2> The steam system also provided low-level heat to keep the toilets and engine water systems from freezing during layovers
02:01:04 <sim-al2> Oh yeah, that sounds about right
02:01:25 <drac_boy> sim-a12 about steam-pipe thats actually why some "high speed" boxcars actually had pass-through pipes or wires as to be mashed behind the locomotive in express trains
02:01:51 <drac_boy> there even were one large fleet of amtrak-specific HEP-ready boxcars (most has been retired by now tho)
02:02:07 <drac_boy> one sec I know where a few were still being put up for sale privately...
02:02:17 <sim-al2> The Denver and Rio Grande actually had a long-distance RDC train, used on 900+ mile train
02:03:12 <sim-al2> Certain express cars featured steam heating systems, as silkworms and other cargo needed to be kept warm during transportation
02:03:40 <drac_boy> oh well.. pass-through versus using it are two different things but mm yeah
02:03:51 <sim-al2> The Milwaukee road would put their crack electric passenger locomotives on such trains
02:04:09 <drac_boy> sim-a12 actually.. silk and milwaukee reminds me of an exact artwork one moment :P
02:05:45 <sim-al2> Yeah, the MHCs had HEP, but Amtrak express boxcars (basically regular cars except for passenger trucks) didn't. They also had freight type air brake valves, which meant the brakes had to be run in direct release, not graduated
02:08:56 <sim-al2> Yeah, the EP2s are rather interesting, traction motor amatures mounted on the axles themselves
02:09:29 <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 the funny thing is that the bells were connected to an automate circuit that would always ring the bell at low speed, apparently their direct-drive motor was too quiet around the yards :)
02:11:13 <drac_boy> don't tell anyone personally but for me I sorta always liked the EP-2 over the GG1 aethistic-wise for some reason
02:11:16 <sim-al2> Heh wow, I suppose the EF1s didn't have that problem :D
02:11:36 <drac_boy> the GG1 does have its own merits tho, especially for highspeed commuter services (and probably saving the electric system for amtrak era)
02:11:40 * sim-al2 hides from the fanboy assault
02:12:19 <drac_boy> kinda funny that it took a foreign-designed locomotive to one-up the GG1 itself (the homemade EC60-something was a failure in face of FRA)
02:12:28 <sim-al2> There was freight gearing for the GG1 too, they were used double-headed on freights even into the Penn Central era
02:12:58 <sim-al2> Yeah, the problem was that the E60C was a freight locomotive through and through
02:13:08 <drac_boy> sim-a12 ah..well they were good on fast freights or modest things such as autocarriers/boxcars/etc ... they didn't exactly handle heavy tonnage that well due to the direct AC drive which could slip a lot
02:13:24 <drac_boy> thats why a lot of the times if you saw a GG1 in freight service it was quite often running doublehead
02:13:37 <sim-al2> Same bogies and frame design as GE diesels of the time, and little in the way of weight reduction possible
02:14:40 <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw the "passenger" SD unit also had its own problem with water tank mounted above chassis line and would derail a lot ... therefore the F40PH design which came soon enough to kill off the rusting F units away in a manner speaking
02:14:40 <sim-al2> Yeah, the pilot axles took weight off the drivers, but they were needed with the way the frames were designed
02:15:04 <sim-al2> Yeah, apparently the tank had no baffling, for some reason
02:15:08 <drac_boy> I forgot the numbering .. just that it was SD-something
02:16:50 <drac_boy> santa fe on the other hand did have some dual freight-or-passenger duty diesels (I believe they came later enough to such that they only needed HEP not steam aboard) ... and sure enough a number of the passenger ones were turned into freight units later on
02:16:51 <sim-al2> For whatever reason, the extra water capacity Amtrak wanted over the passenger versions of the SD40/SD45 was too much
02:17:28 <drac_boy> not sure of all the details, and I forgot the # either
02:17:28 <sim-al2> No HEP until Amtrak developed it, Santa Fe used steam on the trains it was running at the time
02:18:29 <sim-al2> Before HEP, each car carried it's own large-capacity batteries and axle-generators, and whatever inverter it might need, even for air conditioning
02:19:29 <drac_boy> I do recall that amtrak kinda did not want some of santa fe's long-distance wagons which had a vapour-steam dual climate system or something to that effect (but amtrak took them anyway as to be able to buy the big fleet of other wagons especially superlevels that they did want!) and after many troubles finally rebuilt them in a more conventional mechanical fashion
02:19:42 <sim-al2> There a few SDP40s and SDP45s with steam generators, as well as the FP45 and U30CG
02:20:01 <drac_boy> as to why santa fe had these in first place was rather easy to understand .. it was one single wagon that had to operate through ever-changing climate nonstop from the snowy east to the hot sunny west
02:20:55 <sim-al2> I think a number of the cars that Amtrak had were ex-Santa Fe, apparently Amtrak had to buy ALL the cars because Amtrak had been low-balling for the more modern cars so long the managment got sick of it
02:21:17 <sim-al2> A number of heavyweights were owned by Amtrak for a short time, but were scrapped onsite
02:23:07 <drac_boy> sim-a12 you're correct...amtrak tried offer one price, got turned down, offered another only to get same thing...and then actually phoned one of the man while he was on vacation .. final result was basically "you can have these wagons IF you take EVERYTHING except a few private wagons!"
02:23:35 <drac_boy> I actually was reading an article about this santafe-to-amtrak era before and funny enough recall some bits of it now :)
02:24:57 <drac_boy> oh and it even mentioned how santa fe later did not let amtrak use the Super Chief (or was it a different Chief? I forgot) name anymore as they did not agree on the then-existing trainset's condition
02:28:05 <drac_boy> sim-a12 I forgot the exact name of it but did you know that one of the diesel santa fe train actually "ran" as two separate trains even with separated dining services too
02:28:11 <drac_boy> it was some kind of seasonal thing I think
02:33:15 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heres a silly usa quiz for you, what electric locomotive was meant to be shipped as a 5ft gauged one to russia bu tthen the embargo happened so many of them were regauged to 4ft8 and generally quite re-wired for at least three different buyers? ;)
02:58:25 <sim-al2> GE Little Joe, whatever the actual designation was
02:58:53 <sim-al2> Impressive to get a locomotive like that to run on 1500 VDC and 3000 VDC
02:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not hard at all
03:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's "just" a matter of driving more amperes through the wire
03:01:23 <drac_boy> well eddi..just one or two of them was enough to brown out the grid till they were moved to working during more nightly hours :)
03:02:08 <drac_boy> and the same arthor who found about this also mentioned that on riding one of them it dropped its brake riggings in middle of a turnout .. some tape fixed it tho
03:03:17 <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah the 'little joe' was a milwaukee nickname for stalin
03:07:15 <sim-al2> Actually I have to wonder if they were modified at all for the South Shore, operation would have been possible with much reduced performance
03:07:37 <drac_boy> sim-a12 also not same kind of subject but theres at least one tourist line in usa that still had (last the article was written a few years ago) a slight strange looking steam locomotive which had low-profile domes, scrunized cab roof (almost could rub hat onto it), and some narrow valves .. turns out it was a for-uk locomotive that never got shipped out post-1945!
03:08:00 <drac_boy> the comparison of it sitting next to a "normal" usa locomotive of same mechanical type is a bit funny photo wise
03:09:02 <drac_boy> it was a tender not tank locomotive mind you
03:09:37 <drac_boy> hey ... that car looks like nothing to the locomotive, the two of these better watch out for each others :P
03:14:13 <drac_boy> sim-a12 mind you I have liked CSS/SS emu's even the newer nippon ones. and for the record did you know that the classic CSS orange ones had been extended in the middle to increase their capacity during the war as an economical low-cost measure? :)
03:15:45 <drac_boy> went from like 50-60 something seats to 80 seating plus climate control I think was added at the time (or was that factory anyway..)
03:16:45 <drac_boy> "interesting"? umm you wait right there I will show you something very uncommon :P
03:25:02 <drac_boy> I pretty much imagine a C-C arrangement wouldn't be enough (or tracks were too curved)
03:25:31 <drac_boy> and yep for being shoreline it had to share trolleypoles with the frequent commuter emus :)
03:25:37 <sim-al2> The dual trolley poles is an interesting touch...
03:26:19 <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah its kinda an interesting locomotive where you can see two B trucks mounted to a chassis which is then attached to ANOTHER chassis :)
03:26:31 <sim-al2> As is the partially exposed equipment next to the cab
03:26:48 <drac_boy> haha looks like someone actually removed the side panels..theres still a roof panel over it
03:27:09 <sim-al2> Yeah, I don't think it will last long exposed like that...
03:28:03 <sim-al2> Apparently the South Shore had one that was equipped with third rail shoes, so it could operate on all three interurban systems in Chicago
03:28:12 <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw the same railroad also had something else you might like one moment...
03:30:31 <drac_boy> the batteries pretty much sat where the walkways otherwise could had gone
03:31:46 <sim-al2> The first one is a pretty common steeple-cab design that could be found on many interurbans
03:32:09 <drac_boy> sim-a12 problem is the first one only has one single end .. the cab was located on back just like on an SW1200
03:33:22 <sim-al2> There seems to have been a number of dual or tri power locomotives during the late 20's/early 30's, since diesel engines were just starting to appear on railroads
03:33:44 <sim-al2> Using batteries to reach the sidings of course
03:33:51 <drac_boy> and btw about 3rd rail .. the "famous" Electroliner was dual trolleypole/3rd for same reason .. overhead in the open but 3rd through chicago pieces
03:34:09 <drac_boy> that was one interesting little trainset thats thankfully still preserved :)
03:35:02 <sim-al2> Quite a few interurbans were like that, using 3rd rail or a high voltage AC in the outer areas, and low voltage (600VDC) in urban areas
03:35:39 <drac_boy> the reason the electroliner had rather short cars compared to mainline ones was obviously due to the city-kind sharp curves it had to operate over on frequently
03:35:55 <sim-al2> I found a brochure from Westinghouse from about 1910 or so, that has quite a bit of detail
03:36:25 <drac_boy> talk about doing eg 40kph around a curb-tight curve on street level one minute then doing 100kph on the open straightways with no roads to worry about :)
03:36:26 <sim-al2> Yeah, it had to fit on lines that eventually became the subway lines
03:39:37 <drac_boy> funny re you mention about dual/tri .. I still recall a magazine photo that was titled "nothing new under the sun" . guess what it was? said that the idea of hybird power was nothing new look at this old GE-built little steeplecab that had batteries in one end and a genset in other end
03:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the soviets planned a bigger version of the M92 with such a wheel arrangement
03:39:52 <drac_boy> it was dated like 1910's or 1920's roughly
03:40:08 <drac_boy> eddi..ah good point, I'm not always used to certain details of the UIC system
03:41:11 <drac_boy> sim-a12 the LIRR railroad even did have some hybrid locomotive a long time ago too
03:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i might be wrong
03:47:25 <drac_boy> oh and I believe SBB not too recently ordered a small 2-axle shunter that was not surprisingly a diesel engine (plus the electric transformer as well) under the hood and pantograph on the roof. pretty much looked like a 40-50kph max locomotive to me
03:49:48 <sim-al2> It's actually 100km/h max
03:50:29 <drac_boy> oh, well the small rating and its duty had me thinking that at first before..the article didn't say a lot as they were only just starting to ship them at the time
03:51:27 <sim-al2> It's a Stadler, they also introduced a similar pure-electric design (although less powerful)
03:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> if they are "starting to ship", the design speed has been known for very long already
03:52:24 <drac_boy> there is always the Gem 4/4, a classic thats still around :)
03:53:41 <sim-al2> That's a RhB locomotive, but yes they are very cool
03:55:08 <drac_boy> btw its somewhat vintage but if you want dual power in east part of usa, how about the emd FL9 which had its unusual B'A1A' arrangement due to the additional transformer/boiler combo weight near rear end
03:55:27 <sim-al2> No transformer, those need AC current to do anything
03:55:48 <drac_boy> the 3rd rail eventually was never used due to lack of deffered maintenance and diesel power often ran through the Grand Terminal even although they were not supposed to
03:55:58 <sim-al2> It was just that the boiler put it over the max axle weight limit for the Park Avenue viaduct
03:56:48 <sim-al2> Yeah, the New Haven and the Penn Central were not known for good maintenance
03:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what happens when you leave maintenance up to capitalists...
03:59:10 <sim-al2> It was the 70's, the highways allowed truck companies (who were being deregulated) to destroy the railroads spectacularly
03:59:50 <sim-al2> Nevermind that Nixon planned on Amtrak being the company that would wind down passenger service completely...
04:00:14 <drac_boy> anyway sorry about stopping this fun chat short but I'm going to bed already..maybe if you two are still around tomorrow for some more random real rail topics? :)
04:00:31 <drac_boy> yeah .. a "for profit" amtrak that still is a bit difficult to do :-s
04:00:42 <drac_boy> have fun till next time anyway :)
04:02:54 <sim-al2> Of course the New Haven brought it on themselves anyway, they planned to remove their electrification and replace diesels, but then ended up with diesels burning suddenly rather expensive fuel and a electrification system that would never be shutdown anyway...
04:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> oh yeah the golden 70s... where clean diesel was the future over the dirty electric
04:05:57 <sim-al2> Even the politicans were smoking something then
04:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> fuck trams, use busses!
04:06:14 <sim-al2> Yup, that;s totally worked out...
04:06:28 * sim-al2 looks at city bus schedule
04:12:02 <sim-al2> But seriously, a city of 600,000 + people, and transit is not even on the political radar
04:12:17 <sim-al2> They somehow find bus routes to keep cutting
04:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, with every little-used line you cut, you reduce another line from medium to little use
04:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which you then again can cut
04:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a nice vicious cycle
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04:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but "capitalism" still works as long as you cut faster than the income drops
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04:21:25 <sim-al2> Yeah, but in this case it's been city-owned forever. They've had plans to built a light rail line (fancy tram) to the airport for 20+ years, but I don't see how that could happen
04:22:59 <sim-al2> Birmingham, Alabama, had been cutting so hard they've actually got the Department of Justice on them, since the cuts affect inner city minorities quite badly
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04:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> being city-owned does not mean it's not run by capitalists
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12:26:27 <argoneus> good MORNING train FRIENDS
12:27:09 <argoneus> it's something I seem to skip every day
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13:33:10 <qwebirc75216> ... Is there any way to check where's the other end of tunnel in openttd? I'm now playing an android port of the game with 512*512 map and 128 max tunnel length then I randomly put a tunnel somewhere accidentally. The resulting tunnel seems very long but I don't know where's its another exit. Is there any way for me to check?
13:46:25 <Wolf01> qwebirc75216, follow the rabbit in the hole? The tunnel is straight and can end only at the same height, so it might only be at the other side of the map if it's very long. Also I suggest to use transparency options to hide trees and find easily the entrance
13:46:57 <Wolf01> or put a depot in front of the entrance you know and start a vehicle and follow it
14:42:59 <_dp_> there is a limit to tunnel length, so it can't be too far, 64 tiles or smth, mb configurable though
14:49:46 <Wolf01> uhm, nice city name "Lamerburn"
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16:10:06 <drac_boy> so...who want some random rail chat again? :p heh
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16:16:38 <drac_boy> hi clockworker, wheres the counterclockworker now? :)
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16:33:59 <Wolf01> mmmh it seem I can't get my mod to work with windward :|
16:39:42 <drac_boy> whats this re windward and mod?
16:40:51 <Wolf01> it's a game I and Eddi are playing
16:43:13 <drac_boy> oh game...hm..is that the sail one from steam?
16:45:52 <drac_boy> well, hope you two having fun either way allright? :)
16:57:33 <drac_boy> well I already have enough to play with (neverminding slow progress on additionals for them like eg this grf for ttdxp)
17:17:22 <George> Need the advice about desyncs
17:18:39 <drac_boy> your or someone else's server?
17:24:28 <George> it has the following part
17:24:34 <drac_boy> oh, dunno then sorry. someone else here probably could help you tho
17:25:27 <George> It is intended, that the wagon would change the capacity when visit the depot
17:25:43 <George> but it does not work as intended
17:27:05 <George> Capacity is somehow cached and is changed several days after vehicle leaves the depot
17:28:00 <George> causing error message "GRF changed capacity outside depot"
17:28:57 <George> The question is - how to change capacity depending on last service date correctly (causing no desync error)?
17:35:36 <drac_boy> going off for some lunch now, good luck anyhow :)
17:36:16 <George> isn't it to late for lunch? ;)
17:37:51 <Alberth> depending on which part of the world you live, probably not :)
17:40:13 <George> Alberth: may be you can suggest something about my desync question?
17:41:06 <Alberth> I had a quick look, and it seemed ok at first sight, but then again, I am a total noob at NdewGRFs
17:41:17 <Alberth> did you however verify this is the real problem?
17:41:41 <Alberth> ie take that code out, and see if the desync is solved?
17:42:57 <Alberth> xussrset is very big, maybe it is a different capacity
17:43:04 <George> Yes. This code causes error message
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17:43:31 <Alberth> ok, that narrows it down considerably
17:43:57 <Alberth> I am afraid you'll have to wait until a more knowledgeable person appears
17:47:02 <Alberth> I wonder if you can set the capacity explicitly
17:47:11 <Wolf01> I'm here, but I don't know anything about newgrfs :(
17:48:47 <Alberth> but your check basically works only after you left the depot, rather than making a change while you are in the depot
17:49:19 <Alberth> ie the servicing code doesn't get a hint that you are about to change the capacity
18:00:26 <Alberth> the only other thing about capacity seems to be refitting
18:00:56 <Alberth> maybe it's a limitation of the newgrf to only allow capacity change when refitting???
18:01:34 <planetmaker> I actually believe that is the case
18:01:40 <planetmaker> And tbh, that's sensible
18:02:02 <planetmaker> A player wants the vehicle to service regularily for his train to function properly
18:02:34 <George> And how would this code would break it?
18:02:35 <planetmaker> And a change to *capacity* on *service* is going to mess with his setup - something a player cannot avoid happening
18:02:55 <planetmaker> it breaks it by changing capacity depending on service date
18:03:18 <planetmaker> it's something which cannot be done
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18:03:56 <George> And how it BREAKS proper functioning?
18:04:01 <planetmaker> a refit - on the other hand - is always something the player explicitly asks for. So that is different. And a refit is also clearly something which changes the consist
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18:04:23 <George> A player gets better wagon after service
18:04:39 <planetmaker> George, it breaks my well-balanced train network by the fact that a single train now takes more cargo
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18:05:01 <planetmaker> it takes cargo which a 2nd train won't get. So that the chain the 2nd train supports gets less. Thus starting a domino process
18:05:22 <planetmaker> it will unbalance my network where I have time-tabled trains such that my industries will remain well-supplied
18:05:38 <planetmaker> more capacity != better. At least not generally
18:06:06 <Alberth> well, without explicit user interaction at least
18:06:15 <planetmaker> yes, of course :)
18:06:33 <Alberth> If I refit, and thus change the consist, it's all my fault :p
18:06:43 <planetmaker> yup. But then you know what you do
18:07:10 <Alberth> planetmaker gets angry at me for messing up the network :)
18:09:58 <V453000> more capacity also means worse acceleration
18:11:40 <V453000> but in general capacity should indeed never change once built
18:11:48 <V453000> most importantly ... why?
18:13:07 <V453000> like railtype rules? or?
18:14:49 <V453000> but why upon service? :d
18:15:34 <V453000> "in year 1920 a new law came out that wagons shall not carry more than 20t" ... so that you would reduce/increase wagon capacity upon service?
18:18:23 <V453000> why not just introduce a new generation of wagons?
18:18:46 <George> Because the player can use old wagons in such case
18:19:12 <George> With refit on service he can't
18:19:17 <V453000> you can prohibit old wagons to be haulable by modern vehicles
18:19:35 <V453000> also, many people don't service their trains very often, if ever
18:20:41 <George> In case unserviced they whould have low reliability
18:21:01 <V453000> yes but anybody playing without breakdowns won't care
18:21:32 <George> yes, unless he sends it to depot for some reason
18:22:04 <V453000> then the law you are trying to apply will only appear when autoreplacing
18:22:26 <V453000> so the player will upgrade their trains, thinking all is fine, and wagons suddenly drop capacity?
18:22:35 <V453000> that sounds like a bug to me on the first sight
18:23:39 <Wolf01> too much realism that leads to obscure game mechanic... bad feature imho
18:23:54 <George> But it makes the set more realistic. In the current case capacity is increased.
18:24:34 <V453000> yeah ... a prime example of realistic extremism
18:24:44 <V453000> sacrifice anything to get a bug for most people
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18:27:08 <George> Back on topic. Is there a way to fix desync error for this case?
18:28:16 <V453000> I changed power on service some time ago, it was fixed. But I had to promise that I will never fiddle with capacity of things upon service or station visit, as such desync is unfixable with the way things work.
18:28:20 <Wolf01> meh, why is it so difficult to draw anything to a pixel matrix
18:28:24 <V453000> perhaps things are different today but I doubt it
18:29:08 <Simozzz> Most strange part in that desync is the time when it occurs.
18:29:39 <Simozzz> Not in depot, when train get out, but when it reverses on rails
18:32:59 <planetmaker> Alberth, nah. I just let you build yours ;)
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18:33:19 <Simozzz> And another one strange thing - wagon's capacity doesn't change on first visit after these changes have to be done. I.e. not at first visit after new year. But after that, if train shoud change direction of travel - game stops with desync error.
18:33:54 <planetmaker> George, I'm actually not sure it should be allowed to change those properties on service
18:34:11 <planetmaker> Property changes should mean a refit
18:34:19 <Simozzz> There is a savefile, where you can recreate that error
18:35:19 <planetmaker> V453000, those things definitely did not change :)
18:35:34 <planetmaker> So, that was probably stated by frosch (he knows these things)
18:35:56 <planetmaker> And that means, George: you cannot have that feature 'change capacity on service'. You need to remove it
18:35:58 <V453000> maybe together with rubi, not sure
18:38:48 <planetmaker> George, and tbh, 'changing capacity on service' is not realistic either. Vacuuming a wagon or rinsing it with water and putting some oil on movable parts will not change capacity in real life either.
18:39:11 <planetmaker> It's only realistic to change capacity during a refit order - that's when vehicles are completely refurbished
18:39:32 <planetmaker> thus the realism-argument backfires in this case
18:41:12 <Simozzz> Realism that states after that one is that in early 20th century improving qualiity of rails allowed to put more cargo in same wagons without touchin them
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18:42:38 <Simozzz> In our case, all cargoes have it's volume, so does wagons. And we limit capacity both by weight and volume.
18:43:08 <Simozzz> And early wagons have enough of free volume to carry more cargo.
18:43:54 <V453000> can capacity change upon travelling on a different rail type?
18:43:57 <V453000> if yes then you can do that
18:44:25 <Simozzz> To bad, there is not enough of railtypes aviable..
18:44:40 <Simozzz> Increasing it will help.
18:44:56 <V453000> what railtypes do you have? 15 sounds majorly confusing to any player already
18:45:08 <Simozzz> 4 speed limits + 2 types of catenary + some misc.
18:45:21 <Alberth> V: it's not about players, it's about simulating RL
18:46:24 <V453000> yeah apparently Alberth
18:46:45 <V453000> I tend to keep thinking that somebody should be using/playing the thing? :D
18:47:34 <Simozzz> They are, but most of them gave no feedback at all.
18:48:37 <V453000> honestly, OpenTTD is totally not prepared for this amount of realism you are attempting to put into it, and all of the realistic features will probably strongly backfire to anybody "just trying to play the game
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18:50:11 <Simozzz> And that's why we add parameters that allow both to play casually and in hardcore realism. No other grf allows later.
18:51:12 <Simozzz> There was canadian set which tried to be as realistic as possible, but I don't remember, is it abandoned or not.
18:51:22 <argoneus> train tracks have speed limits?
18:51:25 <argoneus> what happens if you go faster
18:51:42 <V453000> yeah canadian set was also ultra bad
18:52:00 <Simozzz> In case of playability - maybe.
18:52:02 <argoneus> the north american set seemed realistic
18:52:04 <argoneus> the trains barely moved
18:52:15 <V453000> you PLAY the game, playability sounds kind of important
18:52:23 <argoneus> V453000: some people enjoy simulation
18:52:48 <V453000> why do they play openttd then
18:52:48 <Simozzz> Well, if you want to know why there are speed limits - come to Russia and you'll se. It's hard to tell in words)
18:53:25 <Simozzz> Becasue they want to play openttd with realism?
18:54:01 <Simozzz> But still, there are those people who like to play openttd that way.
18:54:03 <V453000> if you want realism then why not a real simulator game
18:54:57 <Simozzz> Railsim at steam costs ~80k roubles with all addons and doesn't offer any kind of Russian trains.
18:55:17 <Simozzz> Well, except M62 and BR232.
18:56:08 <argoneus> i dont really want to come to russia
18:56:22 <argoneus> someone would put plutonium in my drink
18:56:53 <argoneus> Simozzz: have you tried some train simulators?
18:56:57 <argoneus> they have map editors right
18:57:06 <argoneus> openttd is fairly simple and casual
18:57:09 <Simozzz> They've done that outside, so you are nowhere safe)))
18:58:35 <V453000> why not just make the trains LOOK realistic? isn't that enough?
18:58:40 <V453000> but make it actually play nice?
18:58:51 <V453000> that sounds to me like a legit approach
18:59:04 <Simozzz> As I said, we made both casuall and hardcore versions in one
18:59:39 <V453000> how casual is the casual one?
18:59:48 <Simozzz> Not as casual as NUTS)
19:00:37 <Simozzz> But you can disable speedlimith, merge different locomotives of series in one et.c.
19:00:48 <argoneus> nuts is pretty uncasual tbh
19:01:28 <Simozzz> Tbh, NUTS is something that differs from others completly.
19:01:30 <V453000> nuts is very casual in the way of thinking "it does not make the set straight up unusable for new players"
19:01:46 <Simozzz> But it is very friendly towards online games
19:01:49 <V453000> the vehicle amount and class amount is just huge, which is what makes it seem harder
19:02:23 <V453000> oh, xussr is meant to be used only in single player or? :P
19:02:29 <V453000> then why care about desyncs :P
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19:02:56 <Simozzz> In online it causes desync, which is started that discussion
19:03:44 <V453000> I know but if you orientate on having the set only for SP, then just declare it that
19:04:35 <argoneus> seems like you know a lot about trains
19:04:41 <argoneus> and then V453000 can port his casual nuts
19:04:45 <argoneus> and then we can all be happy
19:06:17 <Simozzz> Hm,,, how to PM here?)
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19:10:31 <Simozzz> Well, if I could - I'd tried to make OTTD2, but...
19:11:37 <V453000> can is an excuse, want/try is the way :P
19:12:38 <Simozzz> If you'll do my work for me - then I'll try. Otherwise I have not enough free time.
19:13:03 <Alberth> nobody has enough free time
19:13:04 <Simozzz> These barely enough to draw 1-2 locomotives for xUSSSset
19:13:19 <Alberth> free time is something you make by not doing other things :)
19:14:10 <Simozzz> And that's why one of possible ways to get more free time - is to make V do my work for me))
19:14:52 <V453000> V is kind of limited on time as well :P
19:15:05 <V453000> got some newgrfs coming at some point as well :)
19:15:13 <argoneus> he's cheating on openttd with other trains
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19:16:12 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: yesterday, you said: "the follow track function can already distinguish station tiles"
19:16:41 <Crisco> can someone tell me the file destination for the music file?
19:16:42 <_johannes> what did you mean? Does YAPF check tiles for whether they are parts of stations?
19:17:10 <V453000> I wouldn't call it other trains but can't deny that much
19:17:19 <Alberth> Crisco: OpenTTD has a README file that explains the point at the file system for such files
19:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: the follow track function is the part that applies the penalties and knows which tiles are adjacent
19:17:26 <Simozzz> All we've get to with 6 years of work is version 0.4.1...
19:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: it will check tile type, trackbits and stuff
19:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: and is the part where e.g. the road pathfinder differs from the rail pathfinder
19:17:56 <V453000> regardless, I have to do something to live, so if you consider it, working for factorio also improves my skills I use for openttd :P everybody benefits
19:18:19 <V453000> 6 years sounds kind of insane
19:19:25 <Simozzz> That's from complete restart of set... First versions were made in ~2004-2005
19:19:45 <Simozzz> so this set is more than 10 years old
19:20:41 <V453000> I admire the stamina and motivation, but I prefer things which are done in a year, improved over another year, and done
19:21:04 <V453000> well nuts probably took 3 years in total
19:25:52 <argoneus> V453000: you underestimate russian tenacity
19:26:18 <argoneus> they are REALLY good at getting things done
19:26:25 <Simozzz> It takes to much time to find all visual diferences in locomotives, that occur during it manufacturing. For example latest ES5K series have 5 different types of body, with refitable liveries... Resulting in 7 groups of 40 sprites each + 5 groups by 8 sprites for cabless boosters. Resulting in total of 320 sprites for one locomotive series..
19:27:13 <argoneus> V453000: actually take that back, slavs in general seem to be good at making things
19:27:20 <argoneus> poles have witcher, we have factorio, russians have tons of great games
19:27:25 <argoneus> ukrainians have stalker
19:27:30 <argoneus> slav games best game
19:28:02 <argoneus> Simozzz: that looks really nice
19:28:11 <Simozzz> Hm, could you name any good russian games? Because I don't know)
19:28:20 <Simozzz> Well, exept for tetris...
19:28:40 <argoneus> Simozzz: IL2 sturmovik is russian iirc
19:29:47 <V453000> are the years progress of your work, or changing graphics for the vehicle as game years go?
19:29:57 <argoneus> metro 2033 is russian too
19:31:11 <V453000> that is a lot of sprites for a very short time period in the game.
19:31:55 <Simozzz> But real ones have much more differences.
19:32:02 <V453000> admittedly my new train set will have absolutely outrageously insane amount of sprites per vehicle, but they will be for all time playing, and 3D rendering helps too :)
19:32:45 <Simozzz> To bad there is no one in our team, who could make use of 3D.
19:33:29 <V453000> if you aren't interested in just learning 3D modelling and stuff, then it is not worth using it for openttd
19:33:36 <V453000> just hand drawing is much more efficient there
19:33:45 <V453000> x4 zoom is totally not mandatory
19:34:12 <V453000> and making 3D models which actually good and detailed, takes a lot of time
19:34:28 <Simozzz> I know. I've tried that once... Spent more time adapting rendered sprites compared to drawing them.
19:35:01 <V453000> well you do that just once, when you figure it out, it works for all of your models
19:35:12 <V453000> but creating the content itself, is very long process
19:35:34 <V453000> currently I am 3D modelling vehicles with extreme detail, 90% of the details will never be visible in openttd
19:35:48 <V453000> just because I practice use of blender
19:36:04 <V453000> if my only goal was to create the newgrf, I wouldn't even use 3D probably
19:37:37 <Alberth> /me likes V in full 3D
19:38:05 <Simozzz> And that's why I keep using MS Paint whole time... I tried both PS and Gimp, and found them less comfortable to use.
19:38:26 <Alberth> V: I'd hate it if you would be 2D only
19:39:00 <Simozzz> I know that using layers cold save a lot of time, but... I'll spend more time trying to learn how to use them
19:41:12 <V453000> I have used PS without layers for pixel drawings
19:41:22 <V453000> if ms paint works, why not :)
19:41:39 <V453000> I did use some of the tools that PS has over MS paint even for pixel drawing, but rarely
19:42:40 <Simozzz> I have had to use PS before, because you can't save files as .pcx in MS paint
19:43:37 <V453000> why not just use png? xd
19:44:56 <Wolf01> bitmap resolution and font size, how do they work?
19:45:50 <Simozzz> because it was not supported before)
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19:47:07 <Simozzz> In times before NML, the only format used for newgrf was ,pcx.
19:48:28 <Alberth> Wolf01: 12ptis 12/72 inch high, at 100dpi you get 100 * 12 /72 pixels
19:49:17 <Wolf01> so, I have square pixels, I know they are about 0.5mm and I need to set a right font size
19:52:09 <Alberth> 1/0.5mm = 2/mm = (2/2.54)inch
19:52:37 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 56.6929133858
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19:53:55 <Alberth> nah, doesn't look right
19:54:53 <Wolf01> but it's well readable at 15m
19:55:13 <Wolf01> too bad I have only 130x40 pixels :)
20:07:39 <V453000> ah yes sorry Simozzz I didn't realize :D
20:08:37 <Wolf01> I think I'll use 72DPI with 10pt, at least it makes 4 lines of text of 10 pixels each
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20:12:25 <Wolf01> too bad I don't have a colour lcd screen to test the right resolution for that one
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20:45:14 <V453000> modelling uranium powered rocket engine monstrous bulldozer
20:52:52 <Snail> hey Andy, nice graphics for the vehicles factory…
20:53:04 <Snail> planning any additional graphics for the output? like cars, tractors...?
20:53:37 <andythenorth> I might mix in cars and tractors
20:53:42 <andythenorth> currently it’s all trucks
20:53:47 <andythenorth> cars are boring though :P
20:55:11 <Snail> depends on the scale you’re choosing
20:55:39 <frosch123> add a toyshop, and just scale down the cars
21:24:35 <andythenorth> V453000: so am I done with vehicle factory eh?
21:25:59 <V453000> idk, probably yes? :P
21:26:21 <V453000> vast progress has been made for sure
21:26:32 <V453000> I don't have any major issues with the latest one
21:28:47 <andythenorth> I think I’ll come back to it later
21:28:51 <andythenorth> sometimes sprites need a break
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21:43:42 * andythenorth must to draw a Pyrite Smelter
21:45:28 <frosch123> i think the conveyor belts for the ore could be a theme
21:45:32 <frosch123> instead of pipes :p
21:49:28 * drac_boy does not even see any locomotive!
21:53:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: yeah I had that picture saved :)
21:57:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, but you already have the water pools at the copper smelter
21:57:58 <frosch123> so, this time conveyor belts?
22:01:35 <andythenorth> the acid plant and the metal plant are quite distinct
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22:10:56 <drac_boy> sorry have to afk for a bit
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22:25:32 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: Were you refering to CFollowTrackT::Follow() ?
22:26:14 <_johannes> and where does this function in any way check for a station?
22:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: i'd look for where the penalty settings are used
22:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> pf.yapf.rail_station_penalty or something
22:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: inline bool PfCalcCost(Node &n, const TrackFollower *tf) seems like the place
22:44:55 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: FollowTrack::Follow() is called in order to add more nodes to the A* algorithm?
22:45:04 <_johannes> so it's called by FindPath() ?
22:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: i have never looked into the specifics of the pathfinders
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22:54:53 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: found it, it's in the yapf_costrail.hpp
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continue to next day ⏵
