IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-10-29
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02:07:16 <berndj> how close does a station need to be to a thing before that thing starts sulking that it isn't being serviced regularly enough? i have a nice big coal mine i want to service, but an iron ore mine is nearby too, that i don't want to annoy
02:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if you never pick up any iron ore, the mine doesn't mind
02:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ("pick up" in this context means sending a vehicle could carry that cargo)
02:12:25 <berndj> so as long as i don't start, they don't care? but towns/cities do care if you start building stuff nearby?
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10:44:19 <andythenorth> Pikka how is bob?
10:44:39 <Pikka> hmm not bad. uni all done, at last
10:44:50 <andythenorth> do you have a certificate?
10:45:01 <Pikka> uni all done for the semester at last :)
10:45:11 <andythenorth> it is raining here
10:45:12 <Pikka> halfway through the degree...
10:45:24 <andythenorth> and I receive daily pictures by sms from our guys who are in Perth
10:45:39 <Pikka> it's been threatening to rain here all day. It's going to wait until I'm out letterboxing tonight before it actually starts.
10:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hasn't the semester just started?
10:45:57 <Pikka> it's the beginning of the summer break here, Eddi
10:46:02 <andythenorth> are you involved in politics again? o_O
10:46:42 <Pikka> yep, local government this time
10:47:46 <Pikka> I'm involved in two campaigns, so twice as much chance of winning \o/
10:48:26 * andythenorth has been a leafleter
10:48:34 <andythenorth> my dad was a local councillor
10:48:43 <andythenorth> much pounding of streets, opening of gates, avoiding of dogs
10:49:05 <andythenorth> 50p per night I think he paid us
10:49:19 <Pikka> I don't get paid.. tch.
10:50:31 * andythenorth has been on a newgrf spree
10:50:39 <andythenorth> I should forums post some stuff
10:51:04 <andythenorth> I am bored of being in a nearly-inactive community :P
10:51:16 <andythenorth> but maybe I should do something instead of complaining :P
10:51:28 <Pikka> we'll just have to make a new game, with a new community ;)
10:52:27 <andythenorth> I think that’s called factorio?
10:52:50 <andythenorth> haz you other plans?
10:53:23 <Pikka> I have pipe dreams :) but seriously, probably no time soon.
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10:56:29 <V453000> I think players are still very active andythenorth
10:56:40 <V453000> idk about newgrf and development :) dont follow anymore
10:56:55 <andythenorth> V453000: without you, I’m the only one left writing monologues in irc :)
10:56:57 <V453000> I wouldnt take forums as a good indicator of activity
10:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe irc is dying, and you should start a facesnapgram?
10:58:43 <andythenorth> irc died years ago
10:58:49 <andythenorth> now it’s an unkillable walking zombie
11:00:31 <V453000> andythenorth, come make roadtypes mod for factorio :P
11:01:03 <andythenorth> I tried factorio, it doesn’t click for me :)
11:01:05 <andythenorth> most games don't
11:01:45 <V453000> but it has trains? :D
11:25:18 <andythenorth> I didn’t say anything :(
11:26:04 <andythenorth> because I get mocked for being the only one who talks here :P
11:26:09 <andythenorth> and even andythenorth has feelings
11:26:31 <Pikka> how can you get mocked if no-one else talks, hmm? :D
11:27:13 * andythenorth has made a copper cargo
11:27:37 <andythenorth> I wonder why I didn’t just use metal?
11:27:40 <andythenorth> but it seemed wrong
11:28:18 * Pikka made a stuff cargo once, too...
11:28:41 * andythenorth has been making south american trains
11:28:43 <andythenorth> all the realisms
11:28:54 <Pikka> what did you decide about gauges?
11:29:12 <andythenorth> ‘RAIL’ = broad gauge
11:29:30 <andythenorth> then narrow gauge for all the others, 75cm, meter gauge etc
11:29:58 <andythenorth> got 6 railtypes in this game, including PIPE
11:30:02 * Pikka feels meter gauge isn't "narrow", but that might just be what I'm used to.
11:30:27 <Pikka> sure, but if they're "real trains" they're not narrow gauge, or something.
11:30:52 <andythenorth> when we do Pineapple stuff, NG can be RAIL :P
11:31:21 <andythenorth> FIRS queensland economy
11:33:38 <Pokka> anyway, sugar makes rum
11:34:03 <andythenorth> sugar refinery -> food, alcohol
11:35:52 <andythenorth> Road Hog is not bad now
11:36:00 <andythenorth> “At last, a non-shit vehicle set”
11:36:05 <andythenorth> * besides eGRVTS
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11:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> what's next? monster nice?
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13:36:16 <LadyHawk> i just broke a setting in the config file, and i think gave me what i wanted.. *digs*
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14:33:39 <LadyHawk> and i've run into a little issue which i dunno how to solve.. a depot block with heavy traffic... traffic seems to pick a depot and then decide to reserve a track to it.. and they will wait at a blocked path for centuries
14:34:19 <LadyHawk> they should first reserve a free track and then decide to pick said depot on the reserved track
14:35:05 <LadyHawk> i'm finding it strange since it's a forced service, rather than a depot order
14:35:22 <LadyHawk> didn't think they'd actually go and pick a preferred depot and get all stubborn
14:36:01 <LadyHawk> (pbs signals since that's much easier to split the track than entry/combo/exits
14:37:20 <LadyHawk> maybe i can put a waypoint behind the pbs signals and from the waypoint give them a depot order, would that make them pick the depot on their reserved track?
14:37:49 <LadyHawk> so they'd be clueless about any depot untill it's too late
14:38:00 <LadyHawk> for them to get all stubborn about it
14:44:26 <V453000> if I understand this correctly you have 2 depots and want trains to use kind of both
14:48:24 <LadyHawk> 1 track 2 depots on a single tile split by pbs signals is how it started, traffic is clever enough then since 1 depot is always occupied with a train entering or exiting so they filter between the two perfectly
14:49:11 <LadyHawk> now it's advanced to 3 tracks entering a 6 depot block so with a bigger junction, they're starting to show a preferred depot and wait instead of picking a free track (which there always IS)
14:49:29 <LadyHawk> im hoping i just solved the problem but i have to wait for the trains to get there to see
14:50:04 <LadyHawk> choice cannot be part of the equasion
14:51:49 <LadyHawk> yeah looks like the problem is fixed.. at the point they have to reserve a track to a depot, they still have the waypoint order which is right behidn the pbs signals
14:52:15 <LadyHawk> they dont concern themselves with depots until after they reach the waypoint, but they already are stuck on a reserved track so they cant choose which one they go to
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15:10:02 <V453000> looking at people using 2way PBS makes me want to throw up
15:10:38 * andythenorth just makes simple trains
15:11:03 <LadyHawk> lol im well aware of the popular opinion on pbs
15:12:11 <LadyHawk> 2 way pbs? the whole track is 1 way, just with the ability for trains to filter over to a different track (3 tracks side by side to handle traffic)
15:12:34 <LadyHawk> so they devide better
15:12:42 <V453000> sure, whole track is whole way so you will use 2way PBS there instead of 1-way
15:12:46 <Wolf01> uhm, V453000, does the auto update of factorio work? i'm using the 0.12 and i just found i was behind of about 3 releases
15:12:47 <V453000> makes perfect sense ;)
15:12:58 <V453000> I am not sure Wolf01, maybe not atm
15:13:04 <LadyHawk> im using the wrong signal then, but it's 1 way
15:13:25 <V453000> yes LadyHawk that is the bullshit of 2way PBS
15:13:27 <LadyHawk> it works so never bothered to use a different signal
15:13:36 <V453000> yeah great approach :D
15:14:02 <LadyHawk> i'll do a bit of digging when ig et back from work
15:14:23 <LadyHawk> see if i can figure out this 'one way pbs coz im using the wrong signal' thing
15:14:24 <V453000> Wolf01: I know guys at the office did some work on it, but whether it works now, I havent tested
15:15:13 <LadyHawk> signals are a bit hard to understand from reading the description.. i just went and stuck 1 down and see what the trains do with it.. if they do what i want them to do, good enough for me
15:15:18 <Wolf01> btw, i really like the new smoke, i'm hoping to see a lot of new graphics changes in the future ;)
15:15:45 <V453000> :D in .14 the updater even tells me that there is new version but it cant be obtained automatically atm
15:15:50 <V453000> thanks :) more stuff coming
15:18:33 <V453000> the smoke itself might get some small additions, but for now is is nice enough :) making it universally work for everything in the game is not very easy :) but rewarding, now it can be controlled by wind etc, like before but nicer
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17:09:46 <argoneus> does ottd have unit tests?
17:09:55 <argoneus> or is that not supported / not needed / redundant
17:21:00 <Wolf01> ottd seem to only have asserts
17:25:17 <Alberth> not sure you could feasibly write unit tests, given that the source code is 300K lines
17:30:00 <andythenorth> nor that you should
17:32:00 <argoneus> there's nothing wrong with unit tests
17:32:06 <argoneus> they should be separated from the game code anyway
17:32:17 <argoneus> they can only help fix things, not break them
17:32:56 <argoneus> it's C, so there probably aren't any "units" to test
17:32:58 <argoneus> other than random functions
17:33:02 <Alberth> the biggest problem of unit tests is that they take effort to create adn maintain
17:34:01 <Alberth> programming language has nothing to do with how to setup the program
17:35:22 <Alberth> but you have performance requirements that make adding arbitrary cuts for testing non-feasible
17:35:53 <argoneus> tests should be separated from the code
17:36:00 <argoneus> code should have no idea there are any
17:37:14 <Alberth> we got that covered already :p
17:44:44 <argoneus> I'm still trying to figure out why and when should people write unit tests
17:45:00 <argoneus> and I thought large scale projects is exactly where you need them
17:45:17 <andythenorth> you need them when it costs a lot if you get it wrong
17:45:38 <argoneus> so if someone paid you to make openttd from scratch
17:46:19 <Alberth> I don't think there is universal agreement on it
17:47:11 <andythenorth> I universally agree with myself on it
17:47:11 <Alberth> I seldomly write unit tests, pretty much only for complicated code buried deep down which will be difficult to check in program context
17:47:52 <Alberth> on the other hand, there is the "test everything methodology", which says only to write code if a test fails
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17:49:05 <andythenorth> unless you really are writing safety critical systems, that methodology smokes crack
17:49:26 <argoneus> we're working on a "large" project for uni, with 6 people
17:49:34 <argoneus> and I set up all sorts of linting and code coverage testing and stuff
17:49:38 <argoneus> and I'm wondering if it's a waste of time
17:50:10 <andythenorth> there is a current debate around a specific attitude towards TDD
17:50:31 <andythenorth> because some of the original proponents of TDD are now concerned that it leads to test-driven design
17:50:36 <andythenorth> and test-driven architecture
17:50:50 <andythenorth> which can be nonsensical, but fits is philosophically pure
17:51:30 <argoneus> what we are doing is
17:51:35 <argoneus> write a class, implement it to do something
17:51:36 <andythenorth> testing, for example by linting, is non-controversial as long as (1) the test results aren’t spurious or noisy (2) they run often and fast (3) they are looked at and fixed when failing
17:51:43 <argoneus> then write a test to make sure the class is doing what we want
17:51:52 <andythenorth> that’s not TDD :)
17:51:59 <argoneus> isn't linting static analysis?
17:52:06 <argoneus> I thought they were synonymous
17:52:13 <argoneus> since all pylint does is tell me if my code is shit
17:52:19 <andythenorth> potato / potato yes
17:52:29 <andythenorth> it catches common errors that you might have missed
17:52:42 <andythenorth> especially ones that weren’t triggered when you ran your code locally
17:52:44 <argoneus> "class only has one public function"
17:52:50 <argoneus> and that's a problem apparently
17:52:50 <andythenorth> well that’s political
17:52:52 <argoneus> because it should be a dict
17:52:55 <Alberth> you can configure pylint :)
17:53:00 <andythenorth> all linters have a degree of politics embedded
17:53:13 <andythenorth> you have to choose what to turn off
17:53:24 <Alberth> by definition, I'd say, or you don't have a base to check against
17:54:03 <argoneus> the general consensus is write code instead of TDD, and if there's a part that might break, write a test for it
17:54:12 <andythenorth> that’s a common practice
17:54:23 <andythenorth> when it breaks in production write a guard
17:54:27 <argoneus> I can see why people enforce linting and tests in big projects
17:54:35 <andythenorth> if you can predict it will break in production, write a guard before you upset the customer :P
17:54:39 <argoneus> we are only 6, but I'm happy when people write a test for code they wrote
17:54:45 <argoneus> because then I just run the test and I know it works
17:54:51 <andythenorth> no you know the test works
17:54:53 <argoneus> or I glance at the test quickly to check it's testing the right stuff
17:54:57 <andythenorth> the test might be useless
17:54:58 <argoneus> and then I know it's fine
17:55:03 <argoneus> but if the test looks reasonable
17:55:08 <andythenorth> we have an app that had ‘good coverage’
17:55:09 <argoneus> I don't need to worry about the implementation
17:55:17 <argoneus> unless it's slow, which will be profiled by another tool
17:55:22 <Alberth> if the author of code writes the test, both code will contain the same errors
17:55:28 <andythenorth> but one of the tests was something like: foo.x = 1, assert(foo.x == 1)
17:55:32 <argoneus> that's where static analysis comes in
17:55:54 <argoneus> but yeah I don't know
17:56:00 <argoneus> we could probably do just fine with committing and pushing raw code
17:56:01 * andythenorth finds the DHH blog post
17:56:03 <Alberth> errors = wrong assumptions/ideas on how things are supposed to work
17:56:04 <argoneus> with random debug strings in the code
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17:56:15 <argoneus> there's also the thing about feeling good
17:56:23 <argoneus> you feel like your code is good when pylint reports nothing and tests work
17:56:28 <argoneus> and then the bugs come flowing in
17:56:45 <andythenorth> tests will save your ass
17:56:50 <Alberth> if you have someone else write the tests, you have a check from a secondary source
17:57:24 <Alberth> and imho, a test that doesn't fail is a waste of time
17:57:35 <Alberth> since you didn't catch anything
17:57:49 <andythenorth> argoneus: what does the app do?
17:58:23 <argoneus> that downloads and parses stuff
17:58:30 <andythenorth> ok so validate the output and input
17:58:36 <andythenorth> probably with a jenkins job or such
17:58:44 <andythenorth> which CI server are you using?
17:59:02 <andythenorth> so do you have it run test cases on real input data?
17:59:06 <argoneus> we don't really have many unit tests
17:59:13 <argoneus> that actually download stuff
17:59:17 <argoneus> and actually communicate with db
17:59:17 <andythenorth> you don’t need many unit tests for that
17:59:23 <argoneus> because none of us are proficient in mocking
17:59:25 <argoneus> and it seems like a hassle
17:59:27 <andythenorth> you aren’t writing a financial app
17:59:45 <andythenorth> you don’t need to check that the pence are rounding correctly, or the decimal point isn’t transposed
17:59:49 <andythenorth> you have a simple in-out app
18:00:02 <argoneus> well it's not very simple
18:00:08 <argoneus> it also has a database and webfront part
18:00:10 <andythenorth> feed it pages with multiple encodings, malformed tags, multiple html doctypes etc
18:00:13 <argoneus> with a priority queue and proxies and stuff
18:00:25 <argoneus> it's a 12 month project for 6 people keep in mind
18:01:25 <andythenorth> you can use selenium to test the web front end
18:02:01 <andythenorth> have you written your own parser, or used off the shelf lxml or something?
18:02:26 <andythenorth> parser is a classic thing to throw unit tests at
18:02:36 <andythenorth> but only if you’re not using standard library code
18:02:48 <argoneus> the best test is one that actually tests the whole application
18:02:53 <argoneus> like, gives it some inputs
18:02:56 <argoneus> goes through the whole thing
18:02:58 <argoneus> and compares outputs
18:03:11 <argoneus> + unit tests for some tricky parts that you need to debug quickly
18:03:13 <andythenorth> it’s slower though
18:03:15 <argoneus> like parsers, calculations
18:03:22 <argoneus> is that a good methodology?
18:03:54 <andythenorth> there is a jenkins multijob plugin, if you can parallelise your test cases you get much faster cycle time
18:04:13 <argoneus> i still havent figured out how to properly virtualenv with jenkins
18:04:19 <argoneus> I found something called shiningpanda but it's weird
18:05:02 <argoneus> do you think the reason why many applications today use bad approaches for things and such
18:05:07 <argoneus> is because most developers are incompetent idiots?
18:05:16 <argoneus> undergrads, dropouts
18:05:38 <Alberth> pretty much nobody knows how to write software
18:05:52 <argoneus> im in the final year of my bachelor's year
18:06:00 <Alberth> which is not surprising, given the big complexity, and the constant change of technology
18:06:02 <argoneus> and there's still people who can't solve problems
18:06:09 <argoneus> "write a program that does this"
18:06:18 <argoneus> they look up some ways to solve it
18:06:23 <argoneus> and instead of trying to pick the best one
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18:06:29 <andythenorth> I bailed from Civil Engineering partly because too much calculus
18:06:30 <argoneus> they just pick a random lib and try to force it on the program
18:06:38 <andythenorth> which working engineers told me strongly I’d never need in my job
18:06:54 <andythenorth> of the developers I employ 3 out of 4 hated calculus
18:07:14 <argoneus> so this theory of things
18:07:21 <argoneus> "all code should be tested" "coverage should be 100%"
18:07:26 <argoneus> are these stupid opinions or not?
18:07:38 <argoneus> like, if you have a large system test, you probably get 100% coverage, no?
18:07:44 <argoneus> and you should have an overall test
18:08:00 <andythenorth> these people are stupid, or work in a very unique environment
18:08:02 <Alberth> not in a million years you can do a 100% test
18:08:28 <Alberth> a single "if" means 2 tests
18:08:29 <andythenorth> you can do 100% test if you write an academic project to demonstrate 100% testing
18:08:37 <Alberth> 2 "if" means 2*2 = 4 tests
18:08:40 <argoneus> though you are right
18:08:43 <argoneus> there's code you don't need to test
18:08:46 <argoneus> because it's e.g. a library
18:08:51 <Alberth> 64 "if" means 2**64 tests
18:08:51 <argoneus> and it's up to the maintainer to test that code
18:08:53 <andythenorth> libraries have bugs
18:08:58 <andythenorth> but those are Not Your Monkeys
18:09:09 <andythenorth> we find library bugs all the time
18:09:27 <andythenorth> if you are using lxml, you will also find library bugs :P
18:09:37 <argoneus> but don't test obvious things
18:09:42 <andythenorth> tests are excellent
18:09:42 <argoneus> tldr don't be an idiot
18:10:02 <argoneus> if I have an in-out app, I have a test that compares in-out
18:10:12 <argoneus> if I have a parser, I have unit tests for the subparts
18:10:17 <argoneus> + a big test for in-out
18:10:39 <Mazur> Actual users _always_ find something you'd never expect in eternity.
18:10:52 <argoneus> I suppose you are right
18:10:58 <argoneus> there are libraries that are 10 years old, do simple things
18:11:10 <argoneus> and they still get patched every month
18:11:15 <andythenorth> practically, you’re trying to catch stuff like ‘Bob made a load of parser changes, but he only fed it ascii / latin, and it barfs on UTF-8 in production’
18:12:09 <argoneus> this kinda triggers me in my soft. eng. class though
18:12:12 <andythenorth> you want that tested on the feature branch, before it goes anywhere near a release
18:12:18 <argoneus> we learn all these buzzwords that people in the "real world" use
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18:12:33 <argoneus> and then people on the internet say it's retarded
18:12:38 <andythenorth> oh we learn those all the time too
18:12:54 <andythenorth> mostly from videos of keynote speeches, or more often, vendor PDFs
18:12:58 <andythenorth> or some other crap
18:13:11 <andythenorth> then someone turns up and says ‘now we must all do x'
18:13:34 <argoneus> I guess it's because software development is a very new thing
18:13:44 <argoneus> it took a while for people to figure out how to make iron into swords as well
18:13:53 <Alberth> it only completely changes every X years
18:14:26 <Alberth> no change to build experience
18:14:47 <argoneus> I'll just keep doing things that make sense I guess
18:14:52 <argoneus> and test things I deem test-worthy
18:14:55 <argoneus> no need to overdo things
18:15:11 <argoneus> time spent trying to force myself to unittest a simple class could be spent fixing actual problems
18:16:16 <Alberth> doing what seems to make sense, and meanwhile try to improve, is the best you can do :)
18:27:23 <frosch123> argoneus: not sure whether anyone mentioned it, but yes ottd does have unittests
18:27:51 <frosch123> there is a gs and ai script based unittest that runs several commands
18:28:03 <frosch123> the tests are run on the compile farm on each commit
18:29:32 <frosch123> they are mostly for the script api, but also test some ottd internals, but nothing complex (well, "unit"-test)
18:45:12 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27416 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2015-10-29 18:45:08 +0100 )
18:45:13 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:14 <DorpsGek> welsh - 2 changes by kazzie
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19:09:00 <frosch123> heffer: thanks for the nml/pillow patch :) i pushed it to our repo
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19:24:07 * andythenorth needs to draw a vineyard
19:25:42 <frosch123> do you make a "vineyard -> winery -> gold mine" chain ?
19:26:05 <frosch123> hmm, i haven't played widelands in a while
19:26:13 <andythenorth> now I have to google that :P
19:26:23 <andythenorth> I am supposed to be doing openttd stuff :P
19:26:56 <frosch123> it is settlers 2.... well, as much as ottd is ttd
19:26:56 <andythenorth> but I already have that in the same economy
19:28:09 <andythenorth> does it have fog of war? o_O
19:28:31 <frosch123> it can, but i think i disable it usually
19:29:15 <frosch123> it lacks the catapult from s2
19:29:27 <andythenorth> I would really like a game that is similar to warcraft 1
19:29:33 <andythenorth> get resources, then battle
19:29:35 <frosch123> but when there was a catapult you usually ignored the rest of the game
19:30:28 <frosch123> i never played anything of the wc series
19:31:06 <frosch123> i think i backseated some c&c games though
19:32:49 <andythenorth> are we releasing a new OpenTTD in April ish?
19:33:47 <frosch123> i had some plans for my own game in 2007, but then joined openttd
19:34:16 <frosch123> i noticed that some elements are quite similar to factorio :p
19:35:09 <frosch123> even though my starting point was colonization
19:35:48 <frosch123> but by removing things i dislike and extending on things i like, it somehow is similar to factorio
19:36:06 <frosch123> hmm, though only if i remove some parts of factorio which i dislike
19:36:28 <frosch123> so... maybe it is not such big of a surprise that stuff that i like is similar
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19:37:21 <andythenorth> looking at pictures
19:37:26 <andythenorth> vineyards don’t have trees
19:37:48 <frosch123> they have a lot of hill though
19:38:04 <frosch123> i think "hill" is the main part of a vineyard
19:39:09 <frosch123> exactly, so you can postpone drawing, and instead discuss the direction of light in ottd :)
19:39:26 <andythenorth> but that’s solved :|
19:39:32 <andythenorth> no interesting debate left
19:40:01 <andythenorth> I am right, everyone else is wrong
19:40:41 * andythenorth finds a small tree sprite in base set
19:52:30 * andythenorth ponders a GS that replicates warcraft / settlers kind of games, but with vehicles
19:52:45 <andythenorth> logistics instead of people or units
19:52:54 <andythenorth> needs fog of war :P
19:53:20 <andythenorth> also programmable ‘disasters'
19:53:32 <andythenorth> “you lost a battle, 3 ships destroyed”
19:54:42 <frosch123> if it was settlers, it would be "vast area of infrastructure and industries destroyed"
19:55:12 <andythenorth> trigger factory explosion
19:55:42 <frosch123> settlers is one of those games where i have difficulties to imagine people playing it competitively in multiplayer
19:56:24 * andythenorth has never played it
19:56:31 <andythenorth> I saw populous played a lot
19:56:34 <andythenorth> and black and white
19:57:14 <frosch123> well, in settlers as i know it (settlers 1, 2 and widelands) you spend hours to build a nice economy before even thinking about going to battle
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19:58:42 <andythenorth> that’s also how I play Silcon Valley :P
19:58:49 * andythenorth is playing SV right now
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20:23:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27417 trunk/src/zoom_func.h (2015-10-29 20:23:21 +0100 )
20:23:24 <DorpsGek> -Doc: ScaleGUITrad (adf88)
20:29:20 <andythenorth> what does it do?
20:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if there only were a way to find out...
20:30:10 * andythenorth reading the diff
20:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> settlers is one of those games where i have difficulties to imagine people playing it competitively in multiplayer <-- the way i heard it (never done this myself) was like "rule: 1 hour no attacking", and then it's over pretty quicky
20:33:45 <andythenorth> warcraft 1 a head-head (null modem) 2 player mode
20:33:55 <andythenorth> basically it was ‘build a fuckton of catapults’
20:34:12 <andythenorth> unless your opponent had more catapults
20:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the only times i played warcraft (3) on lanparties, it was usually some adventure-ish type maps
20:36:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: must be an american... sugar in bread :/
20:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so everybody gets a hero, and then coop-style
20:37:19 <andythenorth> sugar in your peas
20:37:26 <andythenorth> a reference none of you will understand :)
20:37:29 <andythenorth> not even most people in the uk
20:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> better than pee in your sugar.
20:46:10 <andythenorth> I _think_ he might run up against the cargo limit ;)
20:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i just posted
20:46:51 <andythenorth> also isn’t he just describing ECS?
20:46:58 <andythenorth> I think george has him covered :)
20:47:15 <andythenorth> there’s nothing wrong with the suggestions...
20:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ecs has a lot of other oddities
20:55:30 <andythenorth> much bugs to fix
21:02:07 <andythenorth> they are right :)
21:02:14 <andythenorth> nice shape though
21:02:47 <Zuu> I worked a bit on the shape today. And dimmed them down a bit.
21:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the stairs (on the left) are definitely too primary-colour, whereas all the other stuff is dull shaded
21:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the distinct black framing doesn't help either
21:11:57 <Zuu> It was a quick draw to get the game done in 48 hours. But I do agree with the user feedback that the stairs is not really fitting well with the other graphics.
21:17:37 <andythenorth> FIRS Basic + Silicon Valley or NoCarGoal
21:17:43 <andythenorth> FIRS Full + Busy Bee
21:17:48 <andythenorth> seems to be a sweet spot
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21:47:20 <Zuu> I dimmed them down a bit more at first, but then decided that I want them not to dimed down because they are a key element in the game. Still better shape and a bit dimmed down compare to the old ones.
21:48:45 <Zuu> Oh, and the image shows off a limitation with the current code. Rooms only care about having accecss, not the quality of it. And stairs cannot be built above floor 15. So stair to floor 15 and then elevator works fine for the game. :-p
21:49:50 <frosch123> i never played simtower
21:49:56 <frosch123> is it better to build high than broad?
21:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played it either
21:51:14 <Zuu> In SimTower, it was quite vague if the sims cared if they had to walk sidewides or not. You could have a quite wide building shareing a central elevator. The problem was more that the capacity of a single elevator was not enough for a too wide building.
21:51:30 <Zuu> But you could of couse have more elevators and build wide.
21:51:53 <Zuu> There was a room you got at 5:th star that could only be built at floor 100.
21:55:32 <andythenorth> hmm that’s an idea
21:55:48 <andythenorth> start out with just a couple of industry types available
21:55:58 <andythenorth> GS unlocks more as you achieve goals
22:00:09 <Zuu> Well, if the GS -> NewGRF thing is gonig to get done, it needs a use case. The GS I tried to write I end up realizing it was just FIRS supplies implemented as a GS. :-)
22:02:21 <frosch123> hmm, the main difficulty seems to be that there is no undo knob :)
22:03:51 <frosch123> if i misclick and build an elevator one step to the left/right, it will look ugly forever :)
22:04:18 <Zuu> You can click on it (while not building) to open a window where you can delete it.
22:04:40 <Zuu> It will not only look ugly, but also not work. Because the code check if the parts are properly connected. :-)
22:04:44 <frosch123> where do i need to "click to continue play"?
22:05:27 <Zuu> Oh, then it is broken :-)
22:05:32 <andythenorth> Zuu: iirc, we were looking at handling closure with the GS->NewGRF patch?
22:05:40 <andythenorth> I can’t remember what my idea was at the time :)
22:06:39 <frosch123> oi, second try, i am bankrupting :p
22:06:52 <frosch123> i built too many offices, and could only afford one stair
22:07:04 <frosch123> but apparantly the offices cost when empty :p
22:08:08 <Zuu> Yeah, it is a bit harsh in that if you get into the red then it is hard to get out. No loans to take.
22:11:03 <Zuu> Oh btw, you can "click to continue" using the enter key as the continue link gets focus but cannot be clicked until I solve the bug. :-)
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22:18:11 <Zuu> Ah.. the continue link got no width or height. :-)
22:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably makes it difficult to click on :p
22:20:31 <Zuu> I use a hybrid between HTML5 canvas for graphics and transparent DOM elemets for user input. Not sure if it is the best solution, but it is an interesting one. :-)
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