IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-27
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00:03:44 <Supercheese> you'll want the FISH set for that
00:03:51 <Supercheese> or, well, maybe it's SQUID now
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00:23:17 <Demosthenex> hrm, and now i don't see a car for iron ore?
00:24:33 <Supercheese> If you're using FIRS, you will also need to use newgrf vehicle sets
00:24:39 <Supercheese> vanilla vehicles are insufficient
00:25:47 <Demosthenex> hrm. did i miss a page on prerequisites for FIRS?
00:27:41 <Demosthenex> the firs main page just says "vehicle support, download some", not which to get
00:32:39 <Supercheese> There are many to choose from
00:33:01 <Supercheese> You can stick with all-andy grfs though and get FIRS, SQUID/FISH, Road Hog, Iron Horse, and HEQS
00:34:02 <Supercheese> and Av8 for aircraft, since it is the undisputed best aircraft set
00:35:11 <Supercheese> in road vehicles and trains, though, there are numerous choices
00:37:48 <Demosthenex> i'm just amazed that there was a list of "you need X Y & Z to make FIRS work"
00:37:55 <Demosthenex> not on reddit or any search i can find
00:40:01 <Supercheese> well, it's pretty much just "You need some vehicle set other than the default vehicles", which means for Road Vehicles, Trains, Ships, and Aircraft
00:40:24 <Supercheese> technically you can get by with just one if you use only trains, or you won't need an aircraft set if you stick to just flying passengers around
00:41:06 <Supercheese> However, no explicit dependencies can be set, because there are so many options in those categories
00:42:28 <Supercheese> just their recommendation, of course; personally I find they use too many train sets, one would be enough
00:43:59 <Demosthenex> i ran with what you just suggeted, only downside is i have to start a new map
00:44:04 <sim-al2> I've thought about getting that changed, we've had the same stuff for a long time now. Good news is that a new client is being made by efess
00:44:42 <Supercheese> oh new client eh? Any new/removed patches?
00:45:15 <sim-al2> So far no, it looks like everything works, but on a far more recent base
00:45:56 <Supercheese> I see, well a rebase would allow use of FIRS 2, if that's the intention
00:46:22 <Supercheese> although there may yet be latent bugs in the most recent FIRS
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09:08:18 <andythenorth> FIRS Tropic Basic has zero sea-based industries
09:08:24 <andythenorth> leaves the sea looking a bit bare
09:09:03 <Alberth> and tropical having such inviting waters
09:10:07 <andythenorth> could have fishing grounds
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09:13:35 <Alberth> tourists diving to old wrecks :p
09:26:03 <andythenorth> actually, treasure is not a bad industry idea
09:28:13 <Alberth> ah, the inevitable sharks :)
09:30:09 <Alberth> you can also dive for gold, apparently
09:48:13 <TrueBrain> MySQL will be out taking a piss for the next ~15 minutes; a lot of openttd.org services will be unavailable during that time
09:48:53 <andythenorth> a truebr*in’s work is never done :)
09:49:16 <TrueBrain> well, I am really happy when this is over :P
09:49:38 <andythenorth> a happy TrueBrain is a good thing
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10:01:36 <TrueBrain> MySQL is purring again
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10:37:26 <dlhero> andythenorth: I think ships are a little bit neglected :(
10:39:10 <andythenorth> in the game, or in newgrfs?
10:42:33 <dlhero> both. I played a long game with Squid Ate Fish and after a certain year running costs rise to the point that they are not usable
10:47:07 <dlhero> generally I think they are not balanced and there is no good ship variety
10:54:10 <andythenorth> running costs scale linearly in Squid, they’re directly proportional to capacity and speed
10:54:17 <andythenorth> dlhero: do you have inflation on in your game?
10:54:46 <andythenorth> yeah, inflation is a known bug
10:54:54 <andythenorth> really it should be removed
10:55:05 <andythenorth> it generates a lot of ‘newgrf is broken’ reports
10:55:38 <dlhero> hehe i really have no problem with costs
10:55:46 <dlhero> but it doesn't seem to be all that proportional
10:56:26 <dlhero> e.g. the maspalomas is 233,780gbp/year (speed=42, capacity=1440)
10:56:49 <dlhero> while the pegwell super is 255,944gbp/year (speed=100, capacity=100)
10:57:10 <dlhero> it doesn't seem it scales linearly with speed/capacity
10:57:40 <andythenorth> is that pegwell broken?
10:57:44 <andythenorth> it should be 400 cap
10:59:05 <andythenorth> that’s what happens when I have the development version, and it’s a bit ahead of the released version :P
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10:59:18 <andythenorth> there is no freight refit on the pegwell in my version
10:59:30 <andythenorth> partly because of that silly disparity
10:59:38 <andythenorth> but mostly because, eh not needed
10:59:58 <dlhero> use it for eng supplies on firs.
11:02:44 <andythenorth> it’s possible that the run costs on the big freighters are just too low
11:04:38 <dlhero> a cool feature for certain "tankers" would be disappearing cargo
11:04:48 <andythenorth> disaster: ship sank :P
11:04:56 <dlhero> certain lng freighters run on what they carry :)
11:06:06 <frosch123> hope that your stuff is not in the container on the ship border?
11:06:42 <andythenorth> fwiw, the pax ferries were deliberately removed from current Squid
11:06:54 <andythenorth> no point to them if you have a 70mph, 400 pax hovercraft
11:07:05 <andythenorth> literally never would you choose a slow ferry instead
11:07:21 <frosch123> i thought removing them was an investment?
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11:07:41 <frosch123> only if you remove stuff, you can later have a feature that reintroduces stuff
11:08:08 <andythenorth> frosch123: that is rather too close to the truth :P
11:08:23 <andythenorth> anyway, anyone who wants to make a ‘comprehensive’ ship set
11:08:36 <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of currently unused sprites in FISH/Squid
11:08:42 <andythenorth> and the code is quite easy to work with
11:09:46 <dlhero> well it's a shame imho. since there are no fast ships around
11:10:04 <dlhero> and hovercrafts are not really used
11:10:27 <dlhero> I've never seen a hovercraft operating commercially
11:11:02 <Alberth> openttd is a game rather than a real-world simulation
11:11:26 <Alberth> you ever saw trains going in 45 degrees corners in reality?
11:12:15 <Alberth> dlhero: well, feel free to hide the hovercraft and just not use it
11:12:59 <andythenorth> the takeoff is slightly spooky and surreal
11:13:16 <andythenorth> and it powerslides away down the ramp sideways in quite an epic style
11:37:24 <andythenorth> someone did fork Squid
11:50:06 <TrueBrain> okay, the last machine ... binaries.openttd.org and everything related to that will be unavailable for a few
11:57:10 <TrueBrain> grr, unplug is taking for ever .. :(
12:00:30 <TrueBrain> right; machine is booting ... tick tack
12:01:53 <TrueBrain> okay; all services should be back up and running
12:02:02 <TrueBrain> let me know if anything is not please :)
12:12:31 * SpComb installs icinga for TrueBrain
12:13:29 <TrueBrain> you won't like the status it returns
12:14:45 <TrueBrain> disk full, out of memory, not enough CPU, etc .. long list of warnings :P
12:14:57 <TrueBrain> connectivity errors
12:15:14 <TrueBrain> hehe, describing a human in terms of nagios is fun :D
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13:06:08 <andythenorth> FIRS Stockyard could use another layout
13:06:11 <andythenorth> I’m bored of this one :P
13:09:19 <andythenorth> as massive buildings go, I’m ok with it
13:09:27 <andythenorth> but I would do it differently if starting from scratch
13:10:55 <peter1138> Does that page show all layouts?
13:10:56 <Alberth> if you wouldn't, you either haven't leaned anything, or or you picked the one optimal solution for the unknown problem
13:11:37 <Alberth> peter1138: not by a long shot
13:15:35 * andythenorth ponders writing a layout renderer for the docs
13:15:56 <andythenorth> I’d need a sprite parser, and a spritesorter, in PIL
13:16:01 <frosch123> sounds like a thing andy would do :)
13:16:13 <andythenorth> I don’t fancy it much tbh
13:16:30 <andythenorth> eh, if I can render industries in python, it’s only one step more to reimplement OpenTTD, right?
13:16:34 <andythenorth> in a slow language
13:21:22 <Alberth> people do these things in a browser in javascript :p
13:21:46 <andythenorth> javascript is super awesome
13:22:02 <andythenorth> and you don’t need to be a good programmer to write highly performant software in it
13:22:06 <andythenorth> said nobody ever
13:22:13 <Alberth> hmm, I need an excuse to learn it
13:24:10 <andythenorth> my hatred of javascript is nearly 15 years out of date
13:24:26 <andythenorth> I started using it, and had a rapid crash course in browser compatibility
13:24:32 <andythenorth> followed by Much Regrets
13:24:49 <andythenorth> I switched to a ‘proper’ language
13:24:53 <andythenorth> Flash ActionScript :P
13:27:31 <Alberth> language wars are always 'fun' :p
13:29:00 <andythenorth> this rant is enjoyable thoughhttps://www.semitwist.com/mirror/node-js-is-cancer.html
13:29:26 <andythenorth> but I have node.js code in production nonetheless
13:29:32 <frosch123> see, i was lucky: i never had to use mysql, i could already use psql
13:30:23 <frosch123> i never learnt perl, because python was already around
13:30:58 <andythenorth> we did some mysql
13:31:02 <frosch123> i never learnt advanced c preprocessor magic, because templates were already around
13:31:03 <andythenorth> for ‘high performance’ stuff
13:31:22 <frosch123> i never learnt java awt, because swing was already around (?)
13:32:02 <frosch123> otoh, i learned nfo, because nml wasn't around :p
13:32:45 * _dp_ never learnt machine code coz assembler was already around...
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13:33:12 <frosch123> hah, i learnt machine code because i wanted to write my own disassembler :p
13:37:27 <andythenorth> this Road Hog is not done yet :(
13:37:56 <andythenorth> none of you ever use FIRS Basic economies, right?
13:38:21 <frosch123> huh? none of us ever uses full firs
13:38:31 <andythenorth> is that because Nobody Uses FIRS? :)
13:38:57 <frosch123> you do, isn't that enough?
13:39:50 <andythenorth> it’s still being developed it seems
13:42:22 <andythenorth> might add Fish back to Tropic and Temperate Basic
13:42:37 <andythenorth> eh that’s a terrible id on that div
13:42:43 <andythenorth> who wrote that :P
13:43:42 * andythenorth misses sea industries
13:52:03 <Demosthenex> so, i have a station next to a dairy in FIRS. i deliver milk, i expect to see food come out. turns out the town nearby is attached to the same station and accepts food. is it being automatically sold?
13:52:11 <Demosthenex> i just want ot make sure my food isn't just disappearing
13:53:03 <andythenorth> it won’t automatically be delivered to the town
13:57:37 <andythenorth> do you have vehicles collecting it? o_O
14:06:14 <Demosthenex> no, the food's just gone
14:18:07 <Demosthenex> i have milk trains droppping off.
14:18:40 <Demosthenex> but like i said, the station accepts food, you sure it wouldn't just get "eaten"? the dairy says it produced 155 tons one month and 0 later...
14:18:47 <Demosthenex> no pickup vehicles at all
14:20:14 <Demosthenex> so i should try to pick up food once to start it stocking at the station
14:22:23 <Alberth> it doesn't start stocking until you try loading it
14:23:25 <Alberth> unless you switch a setting back to the original behavior, that is
14:23:44 <Alberth> but then you get bad ratings due to not handling cargo
14:24:13 <Alberth> so it's better to leave the switch as is, and start loading
14:24:36 <Demosthenex> just confused by non-original behavior. got it now.
14:24:53 <Alberth> how did you get milk then?
14:25:11 <Alberth> surely, there was no milk before you started adding vehicles
14:25:38 <Demosthenex> strictly secondary industry.
14:25:48 <Demosthenex> i expected to see an output when i provided an input
14:26:49 <Alberth> confusing default industry behavior with FIRS, eh?
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14:27:24 <Alberth> keep in mind that most industry sets do very different things than the default industries
14:30:21 <Demosthenex> yeah, first time with firs though.
14:30:36 <Demosthenex> milk was the first thing that i could find to ship aorund
15:26:32 <George> Is it safe to change Te depending on current speed?
15:26:42 <George> Would it cause desync?
15:45:34 <peter1138> why would you do that?
15:53:32 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
15:53:48 <Flygon> Some Diesel-Hydralic DMUs use Gears
15:53:56 <Flygon> The VLocities and Sprinters being examples locally
15:54:17 <Flygon> And they do have different acceleration curves depending on what gear they're in. It's not exactly 'smooth' like an Electric motor xP
15:58:59 <peter1138> George, it will desync
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17:06:24 <andythenorth> Demosthenex: FIRS should produce output straight away when cargo is delivered, otherwise there’s a bug :)
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17:30:25 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
17:44:45 <Demosthenex> andythenorth: it does, AFTER i've made something capable of picking up the cargo show up at the station
17:45:16 <Demosthenex> that was the problem. i was putting in milk, and getting paid, but no food. i was going ot stockpile a bit while i made my next route
17:45:52 <andythenorth> there is an advanced setting in OpenTTD somewhere
17:46:00 <Demosthenex> now that i know, no prblem.
17:46:20 <Demosthenex> i'm still broke but i love the challenge. i may finally get the chance to figure out cargodist
17:46:32 * andythenorth should write a better cargodist guide
17:46:45 <Demosthenex> i've just started experimenting with feeder stations in vanilla ttd
17:46:56 <andythenorth> Demosthenex: if you have cargodist questions, ask them here, I might be able to write answers I can reuse later
17:46:57 <Demosthenex> so keep my mainlines open, and use transfers and long haul
17:47:06 <Demosthenex> the next logical step would be to learn cargodist
17:47:50 <Demosthenex> actually, is is cargodIst or cargodEst?
17:52:30 <andythenorth> it’s in the ‘Cargo distribution’ section of settings
18:01:02 <_dp_> is there a way to nerf planes without newgrfs?
18:01:39 <Demosthenex> and the difference between {station,amount}/{waiting,planned}?
18:06:32 <Demosthenex> it was non-obvious that the cargo distribution legend was where you actually controlled the view
18:06:57 <Demosthenex> also, you can't say "30% of this output to this dest, and 70% to another". cargodist is just going to evenly or psuedorandomly spread it out?
18:11:42 <andythenorth> there is a demand function
18:11:59 <andythenorth> if distance effect is 100%, demand is scaled by distance
18:12:08 <Demosthenex> even better, so more cargo to where it makes more money.
18:12:18 <andythenorth> just by distance
18:12:33 <Demosthenex> f(money) ~= f(distance)
18:12:37 <andythenorth> and cargo will be distributed in proportion to the distance
18:12:56 <andythenorth> if distance effect is 0%, then cargo will be distributed evenly as 1/number destinations
18:13:22 <Demosthenex> lastly, i have a small network of trucks in a star pattern now, with cargodest is it better that i change that pattern to a ring or multistop?
18:13:27 <andythenorth> *less* cargo to more distant locations btw
18:13:40 <andythenorth> broadly, distance effect makes no sense except for pax, but can’t be tuned by cargo
18:13:59 <Demosthenex> really?! i thought you made more $ the further it goes.. so why wouldn't it try to send it far?
18:14:44 <andythenorth> I believe the intention is (1) to simulate local pax journeys (commuting etc) (2) long-distance floods pax networks with unmanageable numbers of pax
18:15:22 <Demosthenex> bakc to the route pattern, star or other?
18:16:31 <dlhero> andythenorth: when does pax become unmanageable?
18:16:56 <andythenorth> depends on what newgrfs you have etc, and your play style, and the game date
18:17:11 <andythenorth> ‘unamanageable’ is a function of capacity-per-tile-per-unit-of-time
18:19:28 <andythenorth> Demosthenex: for pax I’d just connect everything
18:21:14 <andythenorth> the pattern doesn’t matter much as long as your vehicles flow well
18:21:50 <andythenorth> for freight cargo, point-to-point is easiest to manage
18:22:26 <andythenorth> transfers work fine too
18:22:58 <andythenorth> be sure to use ‘no loading’ orders on vehicles at drop-off stations
18:23:19 <andythenorth> otherwise you can get cargo unexpectedly back-loading
18:23:48 <andythenorth> also use non-stop orders if the vehicle travels through any intermediate stations, or the effects can be very weird
18:25:23 <andythenorth> also if a station already has a route, and additional routes are added, there is a long delay (3 months in my games) before cdist will assign cargo to the new route, which can cause vehicles to wait a long time, blocking stations
18:25:36 <andythenorth> (for pickup stations)
18:28:24 <andythenorth> finally, whatever anyone else says, cargodist *does not* attempt to assign cargo to destinations in proportion to route capacity
18:29:50 <andythenorth> however if there are two valid routes for the same source-destination, cargodist *does* attempt to load-balance between those routes
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19:24:59 <dlhero> andythenorth: several industries with cargodist could "ask" for certain cargo
19:25:27 <dlhero> e.g. port asks for 224 units of goods/fruit/msupplies whatever
19:45:25 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27405 /trunk/src/lang (latin.txt vietnamese.txt) (2015-09-27 19:45:15 +0200 )
19:45:26 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:27 <DorpsGek> latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
19:45:28 <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 18 changes by nglekhoi
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20:38:10 <George> Is there a way to display current TE in realistic acceleration?
20:39:28 <George> TE = min (TE{SUB()}eng{SUB}, TE{SUB()}max{SUB})
20:46:33 <frosch123> isn't it shown in the train details?
20:47:07 <Demosthenex> any shortcuts for changing time in a timetable i should know? doubleclicking doesn't let me edit
20:47:28 <frosch123> and possibly add your own ones
20:56:24 <peter1138> only the current max TE is shown
21:12:19 <George> peter1138: and how can I see current TE, not max TE
21:13:17 <peter1138> you can't, there's no particular need
21:13:35 <peter1138> maybe a debug window shows it
21:14:45 <George> how can I see it in debug window?
21:23:47 <peter1138> try the usual debug windows, i doubt its shown though
21:42:44 <peter1138> and they're ancient
21:43:29 <peter1138> bound for mu mu land
21:47:46 <andythenorth> all aboard all aboard
22:04:32 <andythenorth> it was at dismaland, but that’s over now
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23:35:35 <Demosthenex> omg, so what's the fastest way to reconfigure 20 trains (ie: cars)
23:39:20 <Demosthenex> i know how to replace engines, but to reconfigure all the wagons...
23:39:27 <Demosthenex> i'm likely to just sell them all :P
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