IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-25
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08:36:21 <andythenorth> I could branch FIRS from trunk at the point where I tagged 1.4.4
08:36:49 <andythenorth> then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas
08:36:56 <andythenorth> it will make a mess of the version history
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09:13:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth, why would it make a mess with version history?
09:13:41 <planetmaker> sounds like a legit way to handle it. And a normal way to work with a repo
09:15:50 <andythenorth> I know the repo will handle it
09:16:23 <andythenorth> but won’t it look odd that the history of the release is 1.4.4 -> 2.0.0-alpha -> 2.0.0-beta -> 1.4.5
09:17:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no. And tbh, look at NML repo. It has the same :)
09:17:56 <planetmaker> I made 0.3.x and 0.2.x releases on the same hour actually
09:20:50 <andythenorth> so what happens to people who have 2.0.0-alpha or beta?
09:20:59 <andythenorth> they’ll be offered 1.4.5 as an upgrade
09:21:10 <andythenorth> which breaks their saves
09:21:32 <planetmaker> no savegame will be broken
09:21:58 <andythenorth> ok, so if you already had 2.0.0-alpha release, that stays
09:22:10 <andythenorth> but you wouldn’t be able to obtain 2.0.0-alphas
09:22:24 <planetmaker> hm... but maybe they'll get it offered as upgrade. but not for existing savegames
09:22:45 <planetmaker> dunno how the internal newgrf version is handled... probably just date, right?
09:22:46 <andythenorth> I didn’t understand this when releasing FIRS 2, which caused broken
09:22:52 <andythenorth> I have no better understanding now
09:23:05 <andythenorth> so my inclination is to do nothing
09:23:26 <andythenorth> if I’ve learnt any lessons about engineering, it’s not to poke twicce without understanding what the mistake was the first time
09:23:41 <andythenorth> mess compounding mess
09:23:48 <planetmaker> probably 'nothing' is even the best path of progression for 1.5.x users
09:27:22 * andythenorth ponders. What happes if I want to join a server using FIRS 1.4.4 and I don’t have that grf?
09:28:14 <planetmaker> you get it from bananas
09:28:29 <planetmaker> you *always* get the version you need for a savegame. Whatever OpenTTD version you have
09:28:38 <planetmaker> and servers == savegame for this matter
09:29:03 <planetmaker> and also whatever you set in the settings of the NewGRF. Savegame requiring it overrules it all.
09:33:59 <andythenorth> the ‘use a new grfid’ ideas seem bad
09:34:02 <andythenorth> dunno why though
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09:34:42 <Zyme> does anyone want to play co-op with FIRS and hardmode? a bit more casual, regular longterm play to make a massive complex network
09:38:34 <andythenorth> Zyme: try openttdcoop? o_O
09:39:01 <andythenorth> maybe you knew that already :)
09:39:55 <V453000> and in fact, FIRS 2 is on public server right now
09:43:18 <andythenorth> they just obsess about train length mostly
09:44:34 <Zyme> I want to have fun and not be OCD, but at the same time build a complex network, but I don't really feel like doing it by myself :P
09:47:45 <V453000> the public is a good place to start .)
09:48:29 <Zyme> people just want to compete :P
09:48:37 <Supercheese> I like Reddit server2, I had a fun game on there before
09:48:56 <Supercheese> was my first time trying a Citybuilder script
09:49:45 <Zyme> its fun yeah but no co-op
09:52:31 <V453000> competing in openttd is kind of pointless :)
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12:11:06 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, train length and signal spacing (always block) are of course the most important part of the game.
12:11:48 <andythenorth> I like the farm fields
12:11:56 <andythenorth> and they change, with the seasons
12:12:04 <andythenorth> or according to random process
12:12:48 <peter1138> Imagine an infinite world MMO version of openttd, all with trains of 3 tiles long and signals on every tile.
12:13:02 <andythenorth> would be best if it was flat
12:13:18 <peter1138> yes, no obstructions, no pesky towns in the way, and no competition.
12:13:28 <peter1138> trees, they're not needed.
12:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas <-- i would not bother with that...
12:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> either you get someone to extend bananas to have more than one "newest" version, or you live with the fact that people can't get FIRS for half a year.
12:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there may be a way to force availability through some dependency stuff. i've seen things available in multiple versions because some addon grf stated that it required the older version
12:16:12 <andythenorth> what’s the downside of splitting the grfid?
12:16:22 <andythenorth> I don’t like splitting grfid, but can’t remember why
12:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people won't get the update if they go on bananas and tick "get all updates"
12:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you need to extend compatibility bullshit, because people can add both GRFs to the same game
12:17:54 <andythenorth> and broken update chain
12:17:58 <peter1138> just reserve a block of grfids and then disable stuff
12:18:09 <andythenorth> I would like 1 million please
12:18:14 <peter1138> don't ask, just do it
12:18:18 <peter1138> and don't tell anyone
12:18:26 <peter1138> and think people will care
12:18:29 <andythenorth> can I rage quit?
12:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only if you replace all your existing posts with "..."
12:19:06 <andythenorth> can someone (not me) compile FIRS 1.4.5 with a different grfid, and release it to Bananas as “Stolen FIRS”?
12:19:16 <andythenorth> it would be a nice conflation with Stolen Trees
12:22:58 <andythenorth> fwiw, I don’t care either way whether FIRS is available for 1.5.x users, I just don’t like that I made a mistake :x
12:24:03 <andythenorth> nobody uses FIRS anyway
12:25:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you did not do a mistake (I think)
12:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the thing with jokes like "Stolen FIRS" is that they get old pretty quick, and then you sit here in three years asking "why the hell did i do this?"
12:30:40 <V453000> bananas should offer the "last compatible" version of newgrfs imo
12:31:58 <planetmaker> maybe andy can work on changing bananas accordingly? :)
12:32:24 <V453000> andy should do everything
12:48:06 <andythenorth> andythenorth is busy eating Skyr
12:48:24 <andythenorth> ‘Icelandic style’ yoghurt, made in Germany
12:48:48 <andythenorth> V453000: do you want me to finish RAWR and whatnot?
12:50:14 <V453000> ready for 12849 GB? :P
12:51:47 <andythenorth> nah, no space on my SSD
12:52:12 * andythenorth counts remaining active contributors
12:52:25 <andythenorth> not down to one hand yet
12:54:10 <andythenorth> 4 OpenTTD committers, one sysadmin, one NoAI/GS, a handful of remaining newgrf authors capable of releasing a finished playable set
12:54:18 <andythenorth> still needs two hands
12:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you know that "<whatever> style" is a euphemism for "knockoff"?
12:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "Schnitzel Wiener Art" vs. "Wiener Schnitzel"
12:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> now i'm hungry...
12:56:48 <andythenorth> “FIRS is TTD-style graphics"
12:57:57 <andythenorth> then ham, bread, cheese, tomato, cucumber after that
12:58:01 <andythenorth> then some crisps
12:58:09 <andythenorth> still hungry? o_O
12:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if you scratch the cheese (unless it's baked), and the coffee...
13:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a cordon bleu would be lovely...
13:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not actually sure what a cordon is, and why it's blue...
13:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then, what does that have to do with schnitzel?
13:04:40 <peter1138> no idea, we don't use the word schitzel
13:05:22 <V453000> sauerkraut blitzkrieg
13:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> your german has detoriated since we last met, i think :p
13:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think his name was gordon brown :p
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17:46:56 <Sylf> Is there a way to change Bananas so it'll make firs 1.X to stable client? Can I volunteer to help?
17:50:07 <andythenorth> frosch packaged bananas and such onto a VM image so that it could be developed on
17:50:19 <andythenorth> ask when he arrives? ;)
17:50:25 <andythenorth> maybe there’s a repo
17:51:50 <andythenorth> I don’t know how the OpenTTD client talks to bananas though
17:52:04 <andythenorth> I’ve skimmed that repo, it _looks_ like admin UI code
17:52:26 <andythenorth> the code for returning content to OpenTTD client might be in there somewhere
17:54:44 <Alberth> that name sounds like the part that copies stuff to the mirrors
18:01:01 <Alberth> more than one time even, apparently
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18:29:37 <Wolf01> but it's indeed a good piece of art
18:30:09 <Alberth> it definitely looks great
18:31:04 <Alberth> it may not be designed to drive around :)
18:48:21 <Wolf01> is there a relevant part or we must read everything?
18:49:05 <__ln__> read the pdf linked to at the top
19:09:57 <lastmikoi> that mindset makes me a bit sick...
19:12:14 <Wolf01> "// Hack to support launch, will fix next week" ahah, who does not have a comment like this buried in code... and written ages ago
19:13:46 <lastmikoi> people without silly deadlines.
19:15:53 <Wolf01> so, long story short, he fucked up his own account
19:16:49 <lastmikoi> long story short, they lack a staging environment
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20:34:29 <andythenorth> so the next version of Iron Horse breaks saves completely, and needs beta testing
20:34:39 <andythenorth> so I should go back to releasing test grfs on forums?
20:34:57 <andythenorth> it was decided some years ago that was a bad pattern and should stop
20:35:19 <andythenorth> but the bananas route doesn’t handle major version changes at all
20:35:24 <Wolf01> release it on bananas as "stolen iron horse"
20:36:36 <andythenorth> why don’t we change grfids any more?
20:36:44 * andythenorth is in world of puzzle :)
20:43:34 <andythenorth> could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic?
20:43:51 <andythenorth> if there are two equal edges between current node and next node?
20:44:07 <andythenorth> or is that too computationally demanding?
20:44:50 <frosch123> it does that for roadstops, but for regular road tiles there is no good method to track whether there are vehicles
20:45:16 <blathijs> The train pathfinder already does that (or at least, NPF does)
20:45:34 <frosch123> yes, but for trains it is easier, especially since pbs reservations
20:45:44 <andythenorth> I can understand the problem
20:46:10 <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is that andythenorth is too lazy to build and signal train routes
20:46:17 <andythenorth> so spams a lot of RVs
20:46:27 <andythenorth> also pikka’s AI keeps building the roads I need for me
20:47:03 <andythenorth> it leads to boring set design though, because I make everything in Road Hog the same speed per generation
20:47:12 <andythenorth> and all types have new generations introduced at the same time
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21:13:44 <andythenorth> pikka’s AI has grown a 30k popn town, with just a few buses :P
21:14:25 <Alberth> 4 buses and patience is sufficient afaik
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22:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic? <-- iirc there was a patch about that
22:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, trains do this by signal states and track reservation, neither of which works for roads
22:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> track reservation somewhat assumes that only one vehicle is on that track
22:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> two trains on the same trackbit is really tricky to achieve, but it happens all the time for road vehicles
22:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so for road you rather need a reservation counter, but road tiles are some of the most stuffed tiles in the game
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