IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-24
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00:03:00 <__ln__> do they dub these awkward foreign point announcement moments?
00:03:22 <frosch123> they did 15 years ago
00:03:34 <frosch123> can't tell whether it changed since then
00:06:32 <__ln__> do they also dub the part where the number of points is repeated in french?
00:07:28 <frosch123> no, they take that time to comment who is colluding with who
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00:08:04 <glx> and the so surprising votes for russia :)
00:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's a commenter, but no dub
00:09:22 <frosch123> wasn't there even a commenter when it was in germany?
00:09:38 <frosch123> like dubbing the german to german?
00:10:08 <frosch123> hmm, maybe main stage wasn't actually german
00:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. the commenter hasn't changed since i watched it...
00:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the votes for russia might not be that suprising, but it was definitely in the top 3 songs this year
00:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the top 3 kinda shape like i expected so far
00:21:07 <__ln__> would it be awkward if austria got 0 points?
00:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really like the austrian song
00:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the fire was a nice gimmick, but that's only secondary...
00:24:05 <__ln__> also, are conchita's appearances censored in russia?
00:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "united kingdom is racing far ahead of germany" :p
00:44:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: more intestesting: was the armenian song censored in turkey?
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01:13:54 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: we beat France, that's all we care about ;)
01:14:05 <LordAro> disclaimer: i don't care about it at all
01:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the german commenter may have had a personal issue with the british song
01:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or basically all british songs in the last 20 years or so
01:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so UK getting a mindblowing 5 points, while germany getting 0, kind of angered him
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01:54:46 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i have a personal issue with the British song too
01:54:51 <LordAro> it's fucking awful :)
01:57:26 <frosch123> imagine you lost a bet, and then have to comment the contest 20 years in a row :p
02:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts it happened that way :p
02:05:40 <frosch123> well, whenever a show was run by the same guy for > 20 years, the show died when they retired
02:05:44 <frosch123> so, there is hope :p
02:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, the first one he commented was in 1997 :p
02:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and he missed the one in 2009
02:10:40 <frosch123> did he appologise for that in 2010?
02:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have that memorized, and it doesn't say in the text that google gave me :p
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08:03:43 <Alberth> V will be very happy with yeti transport :)
08:04:07 <Pikka> I put them in the trains, figured I shouldn't leave them out of the rvs ;)
08:04:44 <Alberth> you should add a steering wheel, so he can drive himself :)
08:04:57 <Alberth> perhaps a bit too much V :)
08:17:39 <Flygon> Since y'all technical folk
08:17:54 <Flygon> CUETools is giving me shit about the following
08:17:56 <Flygon> <Flygon> Exception: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and
08:17:56 <Flygon> <Flygon> less than the size of the collection.
08:17:57 <Flygon> <Flygon> Parameter name: index
08:18:18 <Flygon> Now, I'm presuming it's confused because something some such happened wth the .bin and the .cue somehow being a bit off
08:18:27 <Flygon> Even tho they burn completely perfectly in ImgBurn
08:18:40 <Flygon> Anyone got any ideas how to fix this?
08:27:37 <andythenorth> cut-copy-paste of existing sprites
08:29:54 <andythenorth> trying to eliminate industries using base set sprites
08:31:52 * andythenorth wonders when FIRS32 will be done
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10:19:14 <Pikka> is pikkarail.com not loading for anyone else?
10:21:22 <Rubidium> can't say it isn't loading for me
10:22:12 <Rubidium> maybe it's the Australian internet filter?
10:23:37 <Flygon> We'll never live it down
10:25:04 <Flygon> Ripped very well, hahaha
10:28:25 <Flygon> I said that to the wrong channel
10:28:41 <Flygon> (been trying to rip the damn music off this AoE CD all afternoon)
10:39:08 <Wolf01> uhm, I have a big head today
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11:48:27 <andythenorth> so 32 cargos per newgrf then?
11:56:19 <Alberth> you'd want to have several industry newgrfs loaded?
12:01:20 <andythenorth> for FIRS, the main justification for this is sandboxing
12:01:28 <andythenorth> it clears up the mess with default vehicles
12:01:32 <andythenorth> which is really quite broken
12:02:11 <andythenorth> I have no interest in > 32 cargos in a game
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12:10:25 <Alberth> obviously you can make two newgrfs
12:11:01 <andythenorth> or load multiple existing industry newgrfs
12:11:05 <andythenorth> which is a thing people do anyway
12:11:05 <Alberth> what I don't understand the "per newgrf" thing
12:11:16 <Alberth> ECS is even designed that way
12:11:39 <andythenorth> I favoured the ’32 per newgrf’ so I can ignore players who request more :P
12:11:49 <andythenorth> and because limits force better design choices
12:12:15 <Alberth> there is a poll or so?
12:12:43 <andythenorth> this is down to ‘frosch will decide, or he may decide to do nothing'
12:13:39 <Alberth> but if you don't want > 32 cargoes in a game, why the "per newgrf" ?
12:13:52 <Alberth> you can also say "in total" ?
12:14:19 <andythenorth> proposal was from frosch :)
12:16:02 <andythenorth> default vehicles are extra-broken with FIRS now
12:16:12 <andythenorth> and there’s no good way to handle the problem
12:16:19 <andythenorth> unless FIRS also includes vehicles
12:16:25 <andythenorth> should FIRS include vehicles? o_O
12:18:23 <Alberth> make a FIRS baseset, like V :)
12:19:02 <andythenorth> interesting idea
12:19:08 <andythenorth> I’d want to ship it included in the grf
12:19:27 <Alberth> check for known compatible vehicle sets, and if missing throw a warning
12:20:38 <andythenorth> nah, chases a moving target :)
12:20:46 <andythenorth> and also might annoy authors who aren’t listed
12:21:13 <andythenorth> also, apparently OpenTTD is already supposed to identify if no vehicles are available for a cargo
12:21:17 <andythenorth> although mine doesn’t
12:22:20 <Taede> just check against any vehicle set being loaded, and check against known incompatible ones
12:22:40 <Taede> that way new ones (which should be compatible) wont require you to add them to the list
12:23:38 <andythenorth> default vehicles isn’t a set
12:23:44 <andythenorth> so can’t check for that
12:24:08 <Taede> but you can check if there is no vehicle set loaded at all, presumably?
12:24:30 <andythenorth> only by having the list of all known vehicle sets
12:24:33 <andythenorth> which isn’t knowable
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12:27:44 <Alberth> iirc, I once tried to check for compatibility, don't remember if it ended up in trunk
12:28:09 <Alberth> it doesn't work nicely, as you have these "all but X" compatibilities
12:29:31 <Alberth> i think we should move to unique ids for cargoes
12:30:19 <Alberth> don't know how feasible that is
12:30:34 <Alberth> maybe it's just fixing default vehicles?
12:32:05 <supermop> what am i supposed to use in nars to carry metal etc around
12:32:15 * andythenorth thinks replace default vehicles with a grf :P
12:32:16 <supermop> all these engines look the same to me
12:32:32 <andythenorth> totally isolated, just give the grf a special location and ship it with OpenTTD
12:32:49 <Alberth> it's nice that you can play without any newgrf
12:32:50 <andythenorth> no new code needed, except to handle loading the special grf, and compiling it
12:33:13 <Alberth> and I see no big problems in defining PASS etc for default vehicles
12:33:24 <andythenorth> it just means touching OpenTTD code
12:33:32 * andythenorth favours dogfood approach :P
12:34:07 <Alberth> then you never solve the case where a user donwloads eg FIRS, and nothing else
12:34:26 <andythenorth> if OpenTTD ships the default vehicles grf, then it’s solved
12:34:33 <Alberth> even I got tricked by that with OpenGFX+industries
12:34:51 <Alberth> same cargoes, not compatible
12:35:00 <supermop> all of these freight locomotives go 112kmh going to mess up passenger timetables
12:35:11 <andythenorth> supermop: it’s realism
12:35:50 <supermop> if i wanted to play a realistic nrth american game i'd have no passenger service at all
12:36:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: it’s a problem for all industry sets I think
12:36:42 <andythenorth> my favourite option for FIRS is to disable all default vehicles :P
12:36:48 <andythenorth> sledgehammer, nut :P
12:37:35 <Alberth> they are totally useless with firs anyway
12:38:59 <Alberth> but in my view, we should stop with the cargo slot crap and use ids everywhere
12:39:34 <Alberth> maybe add some newgrf-ish feature to map slots and ids onto each other
12:39:45 <Alberth> although that is perhaps the cargo table already
12:40:06 <andythenorth> there are various props for that kind of thing :)
12:40:12 <andythenorth> cargos are not short of properties :)
12:40:47 <Alberth> too much detail for random stuff you throw in trains :p
12:42:36 <Alberth> although I must confess I don't like using a pax ship for transporting coal :)
13:00:05 <Flygon> You'd have the freight locos going faster than pax
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13:36:17 <frosch123> yay, new pikka pictures
13:36:26 <frosch123> old trucks with huge yetis on them
13:37:12 <Alberth> no I just have to find time to play with them
13:37:20 <frosch123> the cabin looks a bit small compared to the huge trailers
13:37:54 <frosch123> not sure what the closed vans are for
13:49:51 <frosch123> huh, are all depots in the new nuts invisible?
13:50:11 <frosch123> oh, nvm, i guess i broke ottd
13:53:57 <Pikka> glad you like them, frosch
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14:53:10 <frosch123> ignore the dark green, it's only a 8bpp sprite
14:54:59 <frosch123> i have a feeling we may need both, but i have no idea how one would create sprites for that
14:55:50 <frosch123> one could also try to combine them
14:55:57 <frosch123> black - cc begin - cc end - white
14:59:55 <V453000> regarding the look it looks like the contrast is lost but idk how much it can be worked with :)
15:00:13 <frosch123> well, that is also a matter of the sprites
15:00:33 <frosch123> previously 0 was black, now 0 is the dark shade or cc gradient
15:02:17 <V453000> shouldnt 0 stay black/very dark though ? :P
15:03:08 <frosch123> as dark as the original vehicle s:p
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15:12:58 <V453000> the idea imo shouldnt be to kill contrast, just to allow more CC shades :)
15:14:55 <frosch123> well, you cannot adjust the algorithm using a single engine sprite :p
15:16:05 <frosch123> zbase bridges become a lot brighter in both new algorithms
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15:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that giant eye looks creeeeeeepy
15:25:52 <andythenorth> default one is daft
15:26:10 <andythenorth> not everything has to be in scale, but still
15:26:32 <andythenorth> it’s too small for an open pit mine
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15:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't an open pit mine in TTO
15:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> those graphics were used for the copper mine in TTD, which always confused me
15:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever i see a copper mine, i think iron ore mine
15:32:45 <andythenorth> FIRS reuses the copper mine sprites for bauxite :)
15:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't make this easier :p
15:33:34 <andythenorth> Dan has mocked up a deep-mine layout for iron ore mine
15:34:23 * andythenorth looking for photos for inspiration
15:43:13 <supermop> maybe just have various generic deep and open mines?
15:43:33 <supermop> then color the piles of stuff outside to whatever it's meant to be
15:45:08 <andythenorth> that’s the direction of travel
15:45:17 <andythenorth> but needs a little more interest / distinction
15:45:45 <andythenorth> FIRS coal mine uses the off-green colour, same as default
15:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> we've had endless discussions about colour of bauxite before...
15:46:10 <andythenorth> CHIPS has it wrong
15:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it may make it difficult to distinguish bauxite and iron ore mines
15:50:07 <andythenorth> IRL, underground mines seem rare for bauxite
15:50:09 <andythenorth> I can’t find any :P
15:54:18 <supermop> pre-20th C you could have volcanic mud pits for it
15:54:46 <supermop> as that was pretty much the only pre-modern way to get aluminum
15:55:30 <supermop> i'm playing my first ever NARS game
15:55:43 <supermop> don't care for the american trains
15:56:12 <supermop> mostly just wanted to build some HSR routes with metroliners
16:07:55 <andythenorth> do open pit mines work?
16:08:13 <andythenorth> it would be a PITA to make it look good; worth it?
16:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> those two look quite alright
16:09:01 <andythenorth> they seem small to me
16:09:06 <andythenorth> even allowing for scale compression
16:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the giant excavator might be a bit misplaced
16:09:54 <andythenorth> biggest FIRS industry is probably a 9x7 fruit plantation
16:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we've had plenty of discussions about industry sizes already
16:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, open pit mines should be giant
16:10:49 <andythenorth> one option would be to draw sprites for every possible slope combination
16:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to account for some elevation changes in this area
16:11:07 <andythenorth> including options to join to neighbouring tile correctly
16:11:13 <andythenorth> but that is….much work
16:11:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you would do deep mines, you only need piles of different colour outside
16:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> use always the same sprites, with different height offsets?
16:11:51 <andythenorth> open pit mines are benched, so it’s not implausible to try and draw sprites for them
16:11:52 <frosch123> which should already exist in various station sets
16:12:01 * andythenorth ponders a hack on foundations :O
16:12:07 <andythenorth> custom foundations...
16:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> except at the rim, maybe
16:12:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: you wouldn’t find it boring to have 3 types of mine, all same colour + sprites, except for cargo?
16:13:12 <frosch123> widelands also only has minimal deviations on the mines
16:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think that is an entirely valid approach
16:13:22 <frosch123> like material and maybe roof shape
16:13:42 <andythenorth> I could recolour the buildings at least
16:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: widelands (or settlers) materials are more obviously distinguished than iron ore and bauxite
16:14:30 <andythenorth> open pit is tricky
16:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks both too small and too bland
16:14:59 <andythenorth> drawing the excavated rock is hard
16:15:09 <Alberth> too green, and I doubt you'd see the bauxite
16:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> green buildings always look off to me
16:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ... one of the reasons i don't play with TTRS
16:16:39 * andythenorth considers recolouring FIRS quarry buildings
16:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (i never even got far enough with TTRS to get annoyed by towns full of skyscrapers)
16:17:02 <andythenorth> ^ colour of tropic grass tile
16:17:06 <andythenorth> in proper base set
16:17:36 <Cif> I've compiled openttd trunk with gcc 5.1.0 on Archlinux and I have a small diff to mute a warning, I'm using the git repo, how can I submit a patch?
16:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the only green buildings i see, ever, are copper roofs
16:18:36 <andythenorth> I could CC the quarry
16:18:42 <andythenorth> it’s on the list for tweaks anyway
16:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds reasonable
16:22:44 <Alberth> andythenorth: clay pit is fine, it's the green excavator that kills the picture for me
16:23:58 <andythenorth> better in company colour?
16:24:00 <Alberth> and something of a ramp edge at the south-west :)
16:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the excavator is even worse than the buildings
16:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the empty truck should maybe be sloped
16:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and the full truck is practically invisible on that ground
16:24:53 <andythenorth> or moved / removed
16:25:22 <andythenorth> that industry probably has had 2x or 3x more work than any other :)
16:25:37 <andythenorth> for not 2x or 3x better result :)
16:26:03 <andythenorth> shading the banks :|
16:26:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but one part of the project always uses 90% of the work :p
16:26:34 <andythenorth> well it’s on a list for repaint + animate
16:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the slope doesn't look like much of a slope
16:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> make the pit deeper, and the slope longer/more distinguished
16:27:46 <andythenorth> shallow excavation
16:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (and it is still too small for an open pit mine)
16:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm talking about the bauxite mine, not the clay pit
16:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the clay pit is basically fine
16:30:36 <andythenorth> any kind of open pit mine needs a lot of care
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16:33:29 <andythenorth> the original TTD iron-ore mine is blatantly a drift mine ;)
16:33:42 <andythenorth> dunno where the drift is :)
17:29:40 * andythenorth dibbles FIRS primary production
17:29:49 <andythenorth> higher for farms
17:30:02 <andythenorth> and greater range of randomisation on construction
17:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i just read "disables"
17:30:29 <andythenorth> the values were distorted by me playing too much NoCarGoal
17:31:01 <andythenorth> shame I can’t randomise the production multipler property on build, to vary per cargo
17:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i'd have expected that to work individually for each output cargo
17:32:40 <andythenorth> the production level is changed, not the multiplier
17:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> then i have no idea how it works at all
17:33:35 <andythenorth> very few of us do
17:36:53 <andythenorth> iirc, monthly production = production level (per industry, default 16) * production multiplier (per cargo) * 8 [9]
17:37:21 <andythenorth> the cb to set prod. level on build sets…prod level
17:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so why would you want to vary the production multiplier when it is global=
17:39:58 <andythenorth> so e.g. arable farm has prod. multiplier [10, 10]
17:40:02 <andythenorth> grain, sugar beet
17:40:13 <andythenorth> so the two cargos are always produced in same amount, lockstep
17:40:19 <andythenorth> some players don’t like that
17:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but changing the multiplier would automatically change the production of ALL industries
17:40:52 <Alberth> randomize amounts on creation?
17:40:55 <andythenorth> production multiplier isn’t global to FIRS, the ‘per cargo’ means defined per cargo at each industry
17:41:02 <andythenorth> sorry for confusion :)
17:41:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: would need a new cb, but yes that’s one option
17:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> then i still don't understand
17:41:25 <andythenorth> the other is to use the production cb
17:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so industries have a production level which is fixed at creation, and a multiplier that is increased/decreased during the game?
17:43:50 <andythenorth> the terminology is known to be confusing :)
17:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the multiplier is fixed and the level varies?
17:44:52 <andythenorth> it’s a neat system :P
17:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't vary the level by cargo?
17:45:20 <andythenorth> by using the production cb, it’s relatively trivial
17:45:32 <andythenorth> just means handling the production cb, which is awkward
17:46:37 <andythenorth> FIRS primary industries already do that to handle supplies
17:46:43 <andythenorth> I could poke at that
17:48:00 <andythenorth> probably stick some random multiplier in permanent storage
17:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> let's conclude that i can't give you any advice on that
17:50:43 <andythenorth> ok, so I could read the prod_multiplier values when the industry is constructed
17:50:56 <andythenorth> add a random -ve/+ve increment
17:51:03 <andythenorth> store that to perm register
17:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> can you really? sounds like data that is not yet available on construction
17:51:30 <andythenorth> dunno, it’s an industry prop
17:51:52 * andythenorth will test in a bit
17:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> callbacks run during construction usually cannot access such variables
17:52:44 <andythenorth> I could read it during production cb
17:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if callbacks wish to use such data, it must be passed via extra_callback_info1/2
17:52:56 <andythenorth> not even sure it’s adding anything to gameplay :P
17:53:32 <andythenorth> does it matter to have some farms produce more livestock than milk, and vice versa?
17:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to run combined trains, keeping the values together is preferable
17:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> if they change separately, then you have to constantly adapt train composition
17:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (or use refit at station)
17:55:00 <Alberth> not if you do 'fully load one cargo'
17:55:18 <Alberth> you may run partly empty, but who cares
17:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that only helps prevent short-term lockups, but it's still inefficient
17:56:11 * andythenorth favours leaving it alone
17:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> part of the problem is that production always makes these double/half jumps
17:56:39 <andythenorth> nah, not in FIRS
17:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so every production change must be met with a capacity change. you can't have sensible reserves
17:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i haven't played with modern FIRS yet
17:57:54 <andythenorth> it has the same problem, but mediated by supplies
17:58:19 <andythenorth> single -> double -> quadruple production
17:58:30 <andythenorth> hitting quadruple means a lot more infrastructure / vehicles
17:58:54 <andythenorth> and unless the networks are totally segregated, any failure to deliver supplies causes total deadlock
17:59:35 <andythenorth> it’s valid for playing NoCarGoal in 3-hour multiplayer games
17:59:38 <andythenorth> but otherwise not
18:00:27 <andythenorth> my notes are ‘more options, on player parameter: linear, geometric’ :P
18:01:04 <Alberth> while I usually don't bother with supplies, I can see the value in the mechanism
18:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i think supplies should be sublinear
18:01:27 <Alberth> it forces players to handle big variations in transport capacity
18:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if you double the supplies, you don't get double the production
18:01:47 <Alberth> at least, if you are prepared to move everything you get
18:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and supplies should be less dependent on timetables
18:02:05 <andythenorth> they are sub-linear currently
18:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so when you deliver supplies <whenever>, the effect should degrade over time, not suddenly disappear when a delivery fails
18:03:34 <andythenorth> I considered extending the window
18:03:48 <andythenorth> with a ramp-down
18:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably does not help
18:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe good would be an s-curved decay
18:05:03 <andythenorth> what about ramped production?
18:05:12 <Alberth> just do a linear ramp-down?
18:05:12 <andythenorth> nah, annoying latency
18:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> if delivery of supplies was less than 1 month ago, little decay, between 1-3 months steadily climbing decay, after that, decay is dropped drastically, but not quite disappears
18:05:33 <andythenorth> (ramping production up would be annoying)
18:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what is "ramped"?
18:06:24 <andythenorth> same as your proposal for decay, but linear
18:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> basically my suggestion would work somewhat like the default station rating
18:06:40 <Alberth> in the initial yeti programming, I once programmed that you needed 10 production iterations to get rid of the collected input cargo, it has the effect that out is not immediate, which is nice, imho
18:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a delayed effect of increase would work this way as well
18:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so delivering supplies increases a maximum value, and the production slowly increases to this maximum
18:08:45 <andythenorth> delayed effect doesn’t show you what production amount you need capacity for :)
18:09:00 <andythenorth> industry window text is the main problem here :|
18:09:02 <Alberth> perhaps use X amount of provided supplies / month, if you get more, you get high production longer
18:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum decays if delivery is not repeated
18:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the current mechanism is probably fine for certain play styles, so don't just throw it out
18:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> example: production output may be any value between 100% and 400%. sum of supplies deliveries during last 3 months (rolling average) sets the maximum production also to a value between 100% to 400%. production value changes by +/-1% in each production cycle towards the current maximum
18:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> this means, if supplies delivery disappears, maximum production drops down to 100% in 3 months, but production output will be higher than 100% for a longer time
18:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> this also means, you can have random events that increase/decrease the production output (with their effect vanishing over time if not met with a change in supplies delivery)
18:19:14 <andythenorth> not planning to throw out the current mechanic, it’s battle tested
18:19:20 <andythenorth> I want to offer one or more alternatives
18:19:36 <andythenorth> and not just some ‘change values here’ parameters that will baffle most players :P :)
18:20:33 <andythenorth> ok so rolling average
18:20:46 <andythenorth> assume ‘requirement’ is 60t / month for 400% production (example values)
18:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> this separation between current and maximum output factors may also be used for secondary industries
18:21:26 <andythenorth> if 3 month rolling average is 45t, produce this month at 300%
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18:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you deliver a steel mill with only ore, production will be 100%. if you start delivering coal as well, max production will be 200%, but actual production will slowly rise from 100% to 200%
18:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how to come from "amount of supplies delivered" to "x%" is a different issue
18:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: say i have never delivered supplies before. then max and current output is 100%
18:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then i deliver 60t supplies
18:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: max immediately jumps to 400%, but current is 101%, 102%, 103% in each 256-tick production step
18:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> after 3 months, there were about 25 production steps, so production is 125%
18:25:30 <andythenorth> that is somewhat like original FIRS
18:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if i never delivered supplies again
18:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> then max would drop to 100%, but production goes 124%, 123%, ...
18:26:50 <andythenorth> how to explain to players?
18:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> effect of supplies on production: immediate [current]/delayed[new]
18:27:48 <Alberth> if you deliver more, production will rise, but slowly
18:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> or "on production boost"
18:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: old FIRS was different, because it relied on the builtin randomized production changes. there is nothing randomized in this proposal
18:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with this 1% change, going from 100% to 200% takes about a year
18:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe dropping can be accelerated to 2%
18:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or dropping is 1% if between 100 and 150%, 2% if between 150% and 200%, 3% if between 200% and 250%, ... then missing delivery may have a bigger impact on higher levels
18:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's still not immediately causing a deadlock
18:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if a farm is hit by a random event that halves production, then on original 100% production, it takes half a year to recover. if you were on 400%, (and thus dropped to 200%) it takes 2 years to recover
18:39:43 <andythenorth> so this is labelled ‘gradualist’ or something
18:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't come up with that word :p
18:40:08 <andythenorth> I am not planning to actually ship FIRS 2 for some time, so this could be implemented and tested
18:40:12 <andythenorth> provide a better word :)
18:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "effect of supplies on production: {immediate|gradual}" could work
18:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think this proposal is difficult to implement
18:48:12 <andythenorth> needs handling in a few cbs
18:48:20 <andythenorth> text is the hardest part :P
18:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> text: "current production level is X% {({increasing|decreasing} towards Y% due to {surplus|shortage} of supplies)}"
18:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> where each {} is a nested sub-string that needs pushing to the stack
18:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if X==Y, then the second part is omitted
18:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if X>Y then the second part contains decreasing/shortage
18:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> if X<Y then the second part contains increasing/surplus
18:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> can be done in one switch, if X and Y are cached in storage
18:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> may be easier in two steps, where the first one checks for X==Y
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19:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, "STORE_TEMP," should read "STORE_TEMP("
19:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the string would then be something like "current production level is {0:NUM} ({2:STRING} towards {1:NUM} due to {3:STRING})"
19:08:03 <andythenorth> kids bath time, bad time to test this :)
19:08:09 <andythenorth> but I’ve added the issue
19:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> one would assume kids at some point learn to bathe by themselves :p
19:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly after flooding the living room once) :p
19:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (including water dropping through the downstairs neighbours' ceiling)
19:15:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what is about this mechanic that appeals to you?
19:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that it is less dependent on exact timetabling. you just sort of throw things at the industry and it balances out at some value
19:18:05 <andythenorth> what will be the effect on capacity for picking up cargo?
19:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> same as now, if you're efficient at supplies delivery, production will end up at 400%
19:19:35 <andythenorth> you’ll spend more time adding ‘one more wagon’ to trains or ‘one more truck’ for RVs?
19:20:05 * andythenorth wonders why we grow industry production
19:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not. you balance for the expected final volume
19:20:20 <andythenorth> on a tiny map it makes sense for gameplay, because you run out of things to connect
19:20:40 <andythenorth> would static industry production be better on larger maps?
19:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: low starting production is better when starting out. you're not immediately swamped with cargo
19:21:11 <andythenorth> also vehicles improve
19:21:16 <andythenorth> speed, capacity per tile
19:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once you get a decent network going, you have more money to invest
19:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and can invest that in improved capacity
19:21:42 <andythenorth> ok, so I can rule out ‘static’ as a supplies mechanic
19:22:42 <andythenorth> already achievable: just don’t deliver
19:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there would also be no point in having supplies in the first place :p
19:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> also, people would just increase production by placing more industries nearby
19:25:02 <andythenorth> that’s actually what I tend to do now
19:25:09 <andythenorth> transporting supplies is quite tedious
19:25:17 <andythenorth> and cdist isn’t very good at routing them
19:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could have a mode where you remove supplies, and reinstate the original randomized growth algorithm
19:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but i wouldn't use that :p
19:29:45 <andythenorth> it never quite worked satisfactorily
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19:49:32 <andythenorth> so Supplies Effect: Gradual | Immediate (Gentle) | Immediate (Aggressive)
19:49:41 <andythenorth> current version is aggressive
19:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what then is "gentle"?
19:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> also, like i said, the gradual effect might also be useful on secondary industries
19:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> where the range may be 25% to 100% (of input cargo converted)
19:56:00 <argoneus> WE ARE THE HEROES OF OUR TIME
20:00:32 <andythenorth> gentle is the 2x, 4x mechanic, but the values changed to 1.5x and 3x or so
20:00:41 <andythenorth> and the window is maybe relaxed
20:00:52 <andythenorth> I find providing 4x the capacity is tedious :P
20:01:28 * andythenorth wonders about delivering annually :P
20:03:50 <Alberth> once in the entire game :p
20:04:12 <andythenorth> ach, 3% battery :(
20:04:20 * andythenorth needs to deliver electricity
20:12:42 <andythenorth> should there be a variant where supplies have unbounded effect?
20:12:55 <andythenorth> (subject to newgrf spec production limit)
20:13:16 <andythenorth> currently max production is 4x default
20:13:29 <andythenorth> that was a gameplay choice
20:13:49 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s interesting to deal with thousands of tonnes of output at a single industry
20:14:17 <Alberth> people do it the other way around :)
20:15:02 <Alberth> but you can just ignore the production
20:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe have two settings. one for the gradual/immediate method, and one for the maximum production multiplier
20:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so people could have 1600% multiplier if they wish
20:17:47 <andythenorth> wondering about that
20:18:02 <andythenorth> I dislike that kind of parameter, but it might be valid here
20:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly required supplies would grow with this value)
20:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (or even have another setting for that)
20:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: two separate settings are imho better than combining unrelated things
20:20:50 <andythenorth> I think my dislike is that it stops being a plain choice, and starts being an economic exercise
20:21:07 <andythenorth> basically, like going to IKEA
20:21:18 <andythenorth> without the upside of bad sausages and good mustard
20:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> what's there to have against horse sausage? :p
20:21:54 <andythenorth> never knowingly tried horse :)
20:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember ever being at an ikea
20:22:06 <andythenorth> as a scientific exercise
20:22:20 <andythenorth> but you have to actually need furniture and utensils
20:22:26 <andythenorth> otherwise it’s invalid
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20:23:44 <andythenorth> I am unconvinced by setting the max multiplier :)
20:24:10 <andythenorth> there must be something more interesting to explore
20:24:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you _ever_ deliver supplies?
20:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, have no limit but some extreme sublinear scaling
20:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and have the effect in 50% steps
20:25:30 <andythenorth> especially if the explanatory text is reworked (and uses text stack)
20:25:36 <andythenorth> basically a ‘level up’ mechanic
20:25:45 <andythenorth> with progressively greater requirement
20:25:56 <Alberth> very seldomly, basically after I am 'done' with the transport network
20:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so 1 supply: 50%, 4 supplies: 100%, 9 supplies: 150%, 16 supplies: 200%
20:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> or something like that
20:27:18 * andythenorth ponders powers of 2
20:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or exponential instead of quadratic
20:27:24 <andythenorth> or geometric requirements :P
20:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the same thing :p
20:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that is double-exponential?
20:28:33 <andythenorth> level 5 would be…challenging :)
20:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be kinda the point :p
20:36:11 <Alberth> so yeah, I would like a bit more randomized industry behavior, but I can see it doesn't fit in your design
20:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the design was supposed to take the randomness out... but if you want to add randomness, you could either change the base production, or the amount of supplies required for each "level up" on a per-industry-basis
20:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so one industry has a 2,4,8,16 progression, and another industry has 3,9,21,63 progression
20:57:31 <andythenorth> interesting idea
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21:59:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: more randomized? o_O
22:00:07 <Alberth> well, without doing supplies, you set up an industry once, and you never ever have to check if there are sufficient trains etc
22:01:24 <andythenorth> can GS set the prod_level?
22:02:26 <andythenorth> seems GS can only read industries
22:02:57 <Alberth> I would expect so, although that gives options :p
22:03:20 <Alberth> but payments for transported cargo are perhaps more interesting
22:03:30 <andythenorth> how about an AI that deliver supplies? o_O
22:04:09 <Alberth> haha, could be fun :)
22:04:51 <Alberth> but I may interfer :p
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