IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-03-01
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01:06:22 <Samu> have yet to check for mistakes/conflicts
01:06:40 <Samu> it's a big image, zoom in
01:09:08 <Samu> found 1 mistake already, :(
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03:30:35 <Flygon> supermop: Running low on Victorians in the Melbourne area. Want a free 32in widescreen CRT?
03:31:11 <supermop> not a tv kind of guy
05:12:25 <supermop> rendering this 7x7 grid of tram parts is really turning my laptop into a space heater
05:23:32 <supermop> 4x4 went by really quick, 6x6 was a bit slow, but 7x7 is taking forever
05:24:37 <supermop> of course adding a bunch of lights behind curved glass inside little boxes and some glowing surfaaces is probably not helping
05:29:32 <Pokka> btw with the concertina parts just add them to the ends of the vehicles I reckon. half on each.
05:33:12 <supermop> i noticed a sprite rotated the wrong way halfway through through render so had to start over
05:33:33 <supermop> caving in and rendering at 256 instead of 512 px per tile
05:34:12 <supermop> i was rendering at double size then rescaling in PS as it seemed to allow a better quality rayrace
05:34:40 <supermop> on the d class trams
05:35:43 <supermop> the ends are the same for D1 and D2, and the center of D1 is the same as the second unit of D2
05:36:15 <supermop> so should i provide separate sprites for D1 or can it just reference those from D2's set of sprites?
05:36:39 <Pokka> if they're the same I only need one lot of sprites
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05:36:59 <supermop> im not going to render them separately but i can copy those sprites into a separate d1 folder
05:37:41 <supermop> if that is more helpful than the filesize saved by omitting them
05:37:45 <Pikka> sure, although you don't have to. I can code it with just one set of sprites used by both vehicles. reduce the file size a bit :)
05:39:00 <supermop> thats the only tram where different subclasses share identical parts so i didn't know if a non-standard bit of code was more of a pain than the extra MBs
05:41:05 <supermop> also a pain that the 2nd and 4th cars of the D2 are different lengths unlike the C2 - so it ends up asymetrical and requires 12 more sprites
05:41:46 <Pikka> actually any shortened vehicle requires 8 views :)
05:42:08 <Pikka> even if you only render 4 I have to double them up for the different offsets
05:43:26 <supermop> for 180degree symetric segments ive been doing 4 views for running and 8 for loading (assuming that doors only open on platform side)
05:43:49 <supermop> i can duplicate the running views if that helps though
05:44:50 <supermop> for end cabs ive been doing 16 views so far - assuming that eventually i'll add taillights on 8 and headlights on 8
05:44:55 <Pikka> I render my shortened vehicles with 8 views, positioned with the front in the same place as the full-length vehicles, because it allows using the same offsets. but I've already worked out offsets for your other trams and hopefully the new ones will be the same size? ;)
05:45:30 <supermop> im just centering all of the segments
05:45:36 <supermop> i could do differently
05:46:01 <Pikka> nope, all good. as long as they're consistent :)
05:46:46 <supermop> ok that took 17 min after halving (quartering) the size
05:50:33 <supermop> sort of feel like going to bunnings
05:50:49 <supermop> want a smaller chisel and some yello spray paint
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08:04:33 <andythenorth> do the rest of you have ctrl-click for industry types in mini-map? Or is it just me?
08:05:24 <Pikka> it works but I've never used it before
08:06:19 <Supercheese> the magick of the ctrl key
08:06:38 * andythenorth is wondering how much thread can be expended on a non-issue
08:06:50 <Pikka> well I usually want to show a couple of different industries so I just disable all then reenable the ones I want
08:07:17 <Supercheese> Yeah, that's the non-ctrl method
08:07:53 <Supercheese> although even with the white blink, single-tile town industries are sometimes still elusive
08:08:27 <andythenorth> town industries are a PITA
08:08:56 <andythenorth> oh eh, I bet they’re using 1x GUI zoom as well
08:09:44 <Supercheese> GUI zoom is pretty new eh
08:17:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27174 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2015-03-01 08:17:14 UTC)
08:17:18 <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6236]: Display relative offset changes in the sprite aligner (juzza1).
08:17:40 <andythenorth> does that mean the numbers are actually useful?
08:18:11 <Alberth> I hope so, but I didn't do much :p
08:19:33 <Alberth> all praise should go to juzza :)
08:20:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: shall we make a new BB release?
08:20:33 <andythenorth> sorry, I’ve had no time to look at it even
08:20:44 <andythenorth> maybe for GS, we have to release early and often?
08:20:48 <andythenorth> let players find the bugs
08:20:53 <andythenorth> play-testing is time consuming
08:21:14 <Alberth> I tried it, last friday or so, and the new feature of not dropping goals where you work on, works
08:22:36 <Alberth> hmm, maybe I need to push some stuff, let's see :p
08:23:37 <Alberth> oh, I needed the name for the new release, let's do "RC2" ?
08:24:24 <andythenorth> eh, it’s a day of forum wrongness
08:24:31 * andythenorth wonders about correcting all the wrong
08:27:08 <Alberth> tagging and publishing, how was that again
08:28:12 <andythenorth> do we have a changelog?
08:28:26 <Alberth> I added a 'features' in the readme
08:28:50 <andythenorth> dunno how we do the build
08:29:02 <andythenorth> oh we have Makefile now?
08:29:21 <Alberth> we have that for a long time already :p
08:29:36 <Alberth> not sure whether the bananas thingie works correctly
08:30:07 <andythenorth> one way to find out…
08:34:47 <Alberth> bananas doesn't like me :(
08:36:07 <andythenorth> Busy Bee is on my account for some reason
08:36:14 <andythenorth> should be on coop account
08:36:23 <andythenorth> not even sure how that happened
08:36:28 <andythenorth> usually I am logged in as coop
08:36:43 <andythenorth> can it be moved?
08:37:23 <Alberth> I made the first release, with both of us as author
08:37:48 <Alberth> but something went wrong, apparently
08:39:27 <andythenorth> hmm no musa here
08:39:33 * andythenorth looks how to get musa
08:42:07 <andythenorth> is there a correct way to install random python modules?
08:42:12 * andythenorth has never found one
08:43:46 <andythenorth> my nmlc only works due to luck
08:44:07 <andythenorth> I somehow managed to make it work once, and now I fetch the backup when it breaks
08:45:10 <Alberth> add a user directory to PYTHONPATH, and install it there
08:45:30 <andythenorth> ah words I don’t understand yet :D
08:45:38 <Alberth> nmlc is easier though, just leave it all in the project, and make a soft link to the nmlc program
08:46:20 <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is needing nmlc 0.3.x and 0.4.x
08:46:42 <andythenorth> although I think I fixed that now
08:46:55 <Alberth> you can change the name while making a softlink :)
08:47:39 <andythenorth> I treat my python environments as disposable, I think that’s my problem here
08:47:40 <Alberth> ln -s /some/devzone/nml_trunk/nmlc nmlc_trunk
08:47:50 <andythenorth> so everything that can be got with pip install is fine
08:48:00 <andythenorth> but anything that needs configuration, I forget what I did
08:48:29 * andythenorth wonders if we can pip install musa and nml
08:48:30 <Alberth> I make a script or Makefile to record that stuff :p
08:48:46 * andythenorth considers sh make_my_python_work
08:49:16 <Alberth> if you need more than one configuration, it's quite messy, often
08:49:34 <andythenorth> currently I have 5
08:50:17 <andythenorth> we are missing someone who likes packaging :D
08:53:15 <supermop> hmm, keep rendering, make bucatini, or go to a bar?
08:53:48 <supermop> dont feel like eating bucatini but its all i have on hand
08:54:06 <andythenorth> Pikka: is that your standard Brisbane type house?
08:54:53 <supermop> eaves should overhang more though?
08:55:26 <Pikka> you wouldn't be able to see the sides at all if the eaves were much bigger :)
08:55:49 <supermop> what about those shade things hanging on veranda/porch
08:55:50 <Pikka> it's a start, anyway...
08:56:01 * andythenorth considers Pineapple FIRS economy
08:56:05 <supermop> is thing in back rainwater tank?
08:56:10 <andythenorth> if you could just quicly render all the industry sprites
08:56:22 <Pikka> I can render them very quickly andy
08:56:30 <Pikka> you just have to model and texture them :)
08:56:49 <andythenorth> helping explain to child why you can’t convert buses
08:56:59 <andythenorth> also he has transfer-leg profit issues
08:57:35 <Alberth> oh dear, so young, and having money trouble arleady
08:57:48 <supermop> andy if you want basic shapes similar to what you have now, i can model some and export as meshes for Pikka to render
08:57:49 <andythenorth> he has built a route with about 7 transfer steps in it
08:58:03 <andythenorth> including needlessly putting a train portage across a small peninsual
08:58:19 <Alberth> no doubt it looks pretty
08:58:36 <andythenorth> original base set
08:58:41 <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion
08:59:51 <andythenorth> so can I ln musa.py from virtualenv/bin?
08:59:58 <andythenorth> or does it go in site-packages
09:00:11 <Alberth> I have been playing toyland a lot in my youth :)
09:00:45 <Alberth> python imports packages from the directory containing the program
09:01:53 <andythenorth> now it needs a config file
09:02:21 <andythenorth> I tried ‘make bananas’
09:02:28 <andythenorth> print "reading configuration file %s..." % options.config
09:02:32 <andythenorth> oh it’s python 2
09:03:47 <Supercheese> make bananas -> you'll need quite the ripening time
09:05:38 <Alberth> that's why you first need to install musa :p
09:06:28 <Supercheese> and apparently you need ethylene gas too, hmm
09:06:46 <Supercheese> they should have mentioned that in chemistry class, it would have been more interesting
09:07:10 <Supercheese> "Ethylene is the simplest alkene, and it is used to ripen bananas"
09:08:22 <andythenorth> can’t get a working musa
09:08:31 <andythenorth> might return to that later
09:08:37 <andythenorth> ‘problems with python packaging'
09:09:16 <Supercheese> I thought pythons were carnivorous, but it seems to have eaten your bananas
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09:10:24 <andythenorth> my python is rejecting bananas
09:13:13 <andythenorth> I need to declare an encoding?
09:16:00 <andythenorth> “python2.7 musa.py —version” works in the musa repo I have checked out
09:16:08 <andythenorth> but not when linked from Busy Bee
09:16:32 <andythenorth> if I put it in the virtualenv bin dir it has insufficient permissions
09:17:12 <Alberth> yes, "python bla.py" runs from whereever you start the program, and that's thus where your imports are
09:17:39 <Alberth> what's 'python' at your system?
09:17:56 <Alberth> ie the first line of musa.py uses that
09:18:09 <andythenorth> depends on the active virtualenv
09:18:34 <andythenorth> I’ll change the shebang in musa
09:19:25 <andythenorth> still need to put musa in the path somehow
09:19:43 * andythenorth has to go do children things
09:20:05 <Alberth> PATH=$PATH:/some/where/musa_dir
09:22:42 <andythenorth> to make this work for newgrfs, I had a PATH in Makefile.config iirc
09:23:38 <Alberth> I have a $HOME/bin directory where I add my user scripts
09:24:03 <Alberth> and in the login startup script, I add that directory to my path
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09:38:29 <andythenorth> no setup.py for musa
09:38:38 * andythenorth was wondering about just installing it as a package
09:39:00 <andythenorth> the old-fashioned way :P
09:43:18 * andythenorth tries directly uploading BB to bananas
09:43:24 <andythenorth> bananas won’t accept the .tar
09:43:44 <andythenorth> Unknown file in pack: ._license.txt
09:44:08 <andythenorth> software development: all joy, no fun
09:45:57 <andythenorth> won’t accept a zip either
09:46:04 <andythenorth> zip doesn’t have _license.txt in it
09:46:29 <SpComb> you wouldn't upload unlicensed code, would you
09:46:35 <SpComb> it's like stealing a car
09:46:44 <andythenorth> eh, I think you’re missing the point
09:47:05 <andythenorth> one of us anyway
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10:51:47 <Alberth> I saw you did FS#6237 already, nice
10:56:28 <frosch123> yes, though i wonder whether replacing the _cur_dpi backups with some conistructor/destructor magic
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11:00:00 <Alberth> which would imply your object would need a set of {} brackets. Not so nice imho
11:01:58 <Alberth> I can imagine a DrawLimitArea da; da.SetLimit(xpos, ypos, xsize, ysize); /* draw stuff */ da.ResetLimit();
11:03:12 <frosch123> possibly derived from Backup<DrawPixelInfo>
11:03:30 <frosch123> though Backup enforced explicit calls to Restore
11:03:42 <frosch123> and only uses the destructor in case of errors
11:04:09 <Alberth> I like making things explicit, it's hard to see "}" drops the limit
11:05:06 <Alberth> especially if you fold it in something harmless like a 'then' if (...) { BackUp... ; ... ; ... ; }
11:09:17 <frosch123> maybe i missed a * or & somewhere :)
11:11:16 <Alberth> pretty much, although I would expect some _dpi global
11:11:58 <Alberth> oh it's in the constructor, right
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12:39:40 <andythenorth> it’s still on the wrong account
12:39:45 <andythenorth> should move it to coop
12:40:22 <andythenorth> I modified the Makefile to make it work
12:40:30 <andythenorth> and there was only one way to check it worked :P
12:41:11 <Alberth> musa does have that, but again it needs makefile editing :)
12:41:29 <Alberth> publishing needs more love
12:41:59 <Alberth> you want to make a post, or should I?
12:42:08 * andythenorth is hanging out washing
12:42:16 <andythenorth> sorry, I’m not much help on BB :P
12:42:23 <Alberth> concurrent processing :)
12:42:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: it shows only the first account, no matter what
12:42:52 <Alberth> I am not helping much on firs, iron horse, road hog
12:43:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: is there some way to move them? Edit MySQL or something?
12:43:46 <andythenorth> HEQS was moved to coop account years ago iirc
12:44:03 <frosch123> maybe if you change the sorting in bananas.ini
12:44:37 <andythenorth> oh maybe we’re talking at cross purposes
12:44:52 <andythenorth> you’re speaking wrt musa?
12:45:04 <frosch123> are you not using musa?
12:45:32 <andythenorth> yes, but I originally uploaded BB to bananas on my andythenorth account
12:45:40 <andythenorth> for reasons I don’t understand, probably just a mistake
12:45:56 <andythenorth> everything else is on the openttdcoop account
12:46:29 <Alberth> as you can see in bananas.ini
12:58:51 <andythenorth> so what am I missing?
12:58:59 <andythenorth> musa asks for auth creds when it runs
12:59:11 <andythenorth> so I put in my account for RC2 because that’s where BB is already
12:59:25 <andythenorth> does bananas.ini try and provide the account?
12:59:37 <frosch123> bananas.ini contains a list of accounts, which may update
12:59:44 <frosch123> you can use any account of those
12:59:53 <frosch123> but the website will only show one
13:00:01 <frosch123> no idea which, maybe the fist in the list in bananas.ini
13:00:08 <frosch123> maybe it updates when uploading a new version
13:00:29 <frosch123> but why do you even care what the website shows? :p
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13:02:02 <Alberth> it didn't like me, for some reason
13:03:25 <Alberth> so we wondered who owns BB :)
13:03:30 <andythenorth> can bananas content be uploaded via more than one account? :o
13:03:45 <andythenorth> I assumed it was tied to a specific account
13:04:17 <Alberth> in that case it would be buggy, as you didn't upload the first release :p
13:05:03 <andythenorth> oh, so that’s why it’s linked to my account? Because of your musa upload of RC1?
13:05:03 <Alberth> but it's an option :)
13:05:07 <andythenorth> I thought I’d done a bad
13:05:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: what do you think the user list in bananas.ini is for?
13:05:20 <andythenorth> dunno, trying to find out :)
13:05:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: so how did you get my password?
13:05:38 <andythenorth> or is it just ‘auth’
13:05:45 <andythenorth> rather than specific user auth
13:05:55 * andythenorth wonders how bananas user model works :P
13:06:30 <andythenorth> so it doesn’t matter that it’s on my account, it’s not ‘lost’ if I’m not around?
13:06:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth, bananas.ini gives a list of applicable users. You give on upload your own user + pw for authentication against bananas. It's independent
13:06:35 <andythenorth> other people can still maintain BB?
13:06:41 <planetmaker> it's just a list of users who may update later
13:06:58 <planetmaker> users not in the list in bananas.ini may never update the content (unless added in a later bananas.ini)
13:06:59 <Alberth> planetmaker: yep, that's the theory
13:07:08 <Alberth> but it didn't like me
13:07:27 <planetmaker> did you do something bad? ;)
13:07:41 <Alberth> while I uploaded the first release
13:08:33 <Alberth> perhaps I should have made more openttd patches?
13:08:48 <Alberth> don't know if bananas counts those :p
13:09:00 <andythenorth> so do Bananas content item have n owners?
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13:09:29 <Alberth> are there other items with more than one owner?
13:09:34 <frosch123> Alberth: maybe it is case sensitive
13:10:06 <frosch123> is your account lowercase?
13:10:07 * andythenorth has that bananas VM somewhere
13:10:15 <andythenorth> we need to improve Bananas soon anyway :P
13:10:21 <andythenorth> could we do it by April 1?
13:10:30 <frosch123> the vm is older than musa :p
13:10:45 <andythenorth> well what do we need to improve?
13:10:56 <andythenorth> my main goal was to provide a html page for each item
13:11:10 <Alberth> frosch123: Uppercase "A"
13:11:19 <frosch123> Alberth: bananas.ini has lowercase
13:11:26 <frosch123> so, is that the problem?
13:11:43 <Alberth> could be, we'll find out on the next release :)
13:12:00 <andythenorth> so what can I do to ‘fix’ the Makefile?
13:12:09 <Alberth> although you wonder why I could upload the first time then
13:12:16 <SpComb> is this "subsidies" thing in the game some new GoalScripts feature? :P
13:12:30 <frosch123> Alberth: because it was the first time?
13:12:42 <frosch123> basically you uploaded with not granting you the right to update
13:13:09 <frosch123> but, well, musad should probably check whether the accounts actually exist
13:13:17 <andythenorth> basically I dumped musa into BusyBee dir, that’s not essential, but avoided an ugly path :P
13:13:34 <andythenorth> I can’t find a way to install musa as a python module / package
13:13:42 <Alberth> quite possible, but then it either has "alberth" and "Alberth" accounts, or something along the way dropped the lower case after the login check
13:13:51 <andythenorth> I tried giving it an __init__.py and putting it in bin or site-packages
13:14:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: stop installing stuff
13:14:08 <frosch123> just symlink them from /usr/local/bin
13:14:29 <andythenorth> how will python find it as a package from there?
13:14:36 <andythenorth> that’s not in the path?
13:14:52 <Alberth> python uses the directory of the program as import directory
13:15:10 <andythenorth> am I conflating package and program?
13:15:52 <Alberth> for nml, "nmlc" is program, and "nml/" is package (directory)
13:16:24 <Alberth> since nmlc is right next to "nml" directory, it can "from nml import stuff"
13:17:00 <andythenorth> so I don’t need musa to be available as a python package? It’s just a program on my box?
13:18:04 <Alberth> it imports several .py files directly, it seems
13:18:27 * andythenorth looks up how to make symlinks
13:18:28 <Alberth> just keep the entire directory
13:18:56 <frosch123> wt3 does that as well
13:18:57 <Alberth> cd /usr/local/bin ; ln -s /path/to/musa/musa.py .
13:19:09 <frosch123> anyway, everything on strings on the wiki is old stuff
13:19:15 <planetmaker> frosch123, can bananas.ini remove people again from bananas access?
13:19:28 <frosch123> planetmaker: no idea, i did not write it
13:19:33 <frosch123> and it was most likely not tested
13:19:48 <planetmaker> juzza1, yes-ish. Depends a bit whether the meaning changes or it's just a typo fix or amendment
13:20:07 <planetmaker> juzza1, if you want to force a new translation (thus make it obvious), then remove the translations. In a separate commit
13:20:40 <juzza1> I'm amending "Ctrl+click to do this and that"
13:20:40 <frosch123> juzza1: but don't even consider doing that, unless you know how to use "sed" or similar tools :p
13:21:20 <andythenorth> ok, I’ve linked musa, that works
13:21:47 <planetmaker> juzza1, not sure that amending the ctrl+click information warrants to invalidate translations as that only is an amendment
13:21:59 <andythenorth> no makefile changes needed
13:22:15 <planetmaker> juzza1, in that case imho it's sufficient if translators see them in the category of changed strings. The current translation isn't wrong in that case. Just not complete
13:23:02 <planetmaker> juzza1, but indeed removing strings from translations is two console commands with grep and sed :)
13:23:04 <andythenorth> maybe one day I’ll understand computers
13:23:05 <Alberth> we'll understand how to publish a script eventually :p
13:23:37 <juzza1> and yes, i did it with sed :P
13:23:40 * andythenorth wonders if he could improve musa docs
13:24:20 <Alberth> your time is better spent on a nicer web thingie, probably
13:24:51 <andythenorth> my world contains a lot of python files, almost none of which can be called directly
13:25:04 <andythenorth> so I set about musa.py all wrong:P
13:25:52 <Alberth> directly callable scripts are very nice, you may want to consider adding more in your world
13:32:21 <andythenorth> well, it tends to cause issues with shebangs
13:32:30 <planetmaker> version RC2M, eh?
13:32:32 <andythenorth> unless you have something like buildout that can set the shebang
13:32:43 <andythenorth> also, mostly, modules modules modules :)
13:32:46 <planetmaker> the shebang is set in the script?
13:33:15 <andythenorth> is there a sys arg method?
13:33:30 <planetmaker> #! /usr/bin/env python3
13:33:36 <planetmaker> or something like that is a nice shebang
13:33:44 <andythenorth> useless for isolation
13:34:59 <andythenorth> which python 3 is that? :P
13:35:19 <andythenorth> although there is a hideous port select utility on OS X that let’s you set current python
13:35:53 <planetmaker> python should always be python2. And python3 is... well... python3. Isn't that the case with your ports?
13:36:11 <planetmaker> same broken-ness as with linux arch then :P
13:36:39 <Alberth> bdfl sees "python" as "the python interpreter" which ever version :p
13:37:13 <Alberth> so it may be wise to specifically set a version if required
13:38:25 <andythenorth> for work I need python 2.4, 2.6 and 2.7
13:38:34 <andythenorth> for newgrfs I need 3.2, 3.4, and 2.7 and 2.6
13:40:12 <Alberth> just buy 5 computers :p
13:41:19 <andythenorth> got seriously close to using vagrant :P
13:41:27 <andythenorth> virtualbox for each project
13:41:31 <andythenorth> totally portable :P
13:41:35 <Alberth> but 2.6 -> 2.7 and 3.2 -> 3.4 should be feasible quite easily ?
13:42:19 <andythenorth> you have 3.4 though, and I rely on you to repro my current bugs :P
13:42:23 <andythenorth> whereas devzone has 3.2
13:42:45 <andythenorth> and the 2.6 stuff would need a full production QA run to be moved to 2.7, and the production environment redeployed
13:42:52 <andythenorth> 2.4 is best not mentioned :(
13:43:45 <Alberth> I didn't, for exactly that reason :p
13:44:01 <andythenorth> every package you want to use….doesn’t exist :(
13:44:05 <andythenorth> it’s like crippleware
13:44:33 <Alberth> indeed, open source tends to move very fast to the newest stuff
13:44:57 <planetmaker> well, depends on which / how it is used
13:45:07 <planetmaker> distros don't exactly update the python version they ship
13:45:19 <planetmaker> thus yes, 3.2 is still debian current. As is 2.7
13:45:39 <andythenorth> there tends to be conservatism around databases and stuff which has to be zero defect
13:45:44 <andythenorth> “let’s stick with the known bugs"
13:46:05 <planetmaker> makes sense, if your source of revenue depends on it :)
13:46:38 <andythenorth> playing it safe tends to cause a lot of trouble in the long run
13:46:59 <planetmaker> well, the point with production systems is: you want them running and you need to make sure they're safe
13:46:59 * andythenorth is stuck with a large app in python 2.4, which is dead :P
13:47:11 <planetmaker> any single change in version of one of the software pieces used may change that
13:47:25 <planetmaker> thus... setup the system, let it run for a few years safe security backports
13:47:39 <planetmaker> then setup new system with newer stuff, test, and switch
13:48:15 <planetmaker> different probably for desktop... but then... yes, I don't want to re-install my workplace desktop too often either. It also takes time
13:49:18 <andythenorth> so should we update bananas for April?
13:50:06 <planetmaker> if you ask TrueBrain nicely he might even give you a VM clone of bananas with a DB copy and have you experiment till it runs :)
13:50:18 <planetmaker> or ... there used to be a VM ... wasn't there, frosch123 ?
13:51:34 <planetmaker> there might have been the issue that it integrates with the rest of openttd web frontend
13:52:09 <planetmaker> but granted... that can possibly be separated
13:54:04 <TrueBrain> [14:49] <andythenorth> virtualbox for each project <- use virtualenv, and yo dont need a vm for each project ;)
13:54:42 <andythenorth> also isolated pythons which can be rebuilt on demand
13:54:49 <TrueBrain> [14:57] <andythenorth> so should we update bananas for April? <- why April, and what update?
13:54:52 <andythenorth> but you do have to fight setuptools 6 times :(
13:55:03 <andythenorth> April 1 is traditional release date?
13:55:18 <TrueBrain> I run Python2.7, Python 2.6 and PyPy 2.5 in different virtualenvs, all isolated :D Main system doesn't even have Python running
13:55:24 <TrueBrain> I love that shit :)
13:55:34 <andythenorth> I love it now I have got it written down and repeatable :P
13:55:38 <andythenorth> I didn’t love learning it
13:56:00 <andythenorth> Bananas update: I have only the idea of a html page for each item, showing the description etc
13:56:02 <TrueBrain> anyway, I have no clue what you guys talk about :)
13:56:05 <andythenorth> like a web preview
13:56:10 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: there inded is a dev VM, which should work fine
13:56:32 <TrueBrain> a DB copy would be impropable to give :P
13:56:53 <TrueBrain> but it cant be hard to fill the dev VM with dummy data ofc :)
13:57:19 <planetmaker> it would be nice to be able to give that to andy :)
13:57:26 <TrueBrain> ah; well, feel free to improve BaNaNaS :)
13:57:27 <andythenorth> and anyone else who wants to improve it…
13:57:33 * andythenorth wonders about a reskin some time
13:57:39 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: give what? Bit vague after my lines :D
13:57:57 <TrueBrain> should be in the VM
13:57:59 <Alberth> or, what dies if you change that?
13:58:09 <TrueBrain> I at least assume frosch did a proper job there; I have no reason to doubt him :D
13:58:16 <andythenorth> could we have a populate script? (first run, dummy data)
13:58:27 <planetmaker> the DB scheme with at least dummy DB, access to it, so that he can stab at it till it squeaks back
13:58:44 <TrueBrain> the VM, as far as I understood, is a working version of BaNaNaS
13:58:48 <TrueBrain> so .. that should be in there
13:58:59 <TrueBrain> I doubt otherwise the dev VM would be useful :D
13:59:12 <TrueBrain> so to me it seems that information is already supplied, wrapped in a nice VM :D
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13:59:42 <TrueBrain> and as BaNaNaS is build on Django, any DB changes should be trivial to apply to live system :)
14:00:00 <TrueBrain> django-admin syncdb *waits* :D
14:00:14 <TrueBrain> so knock yourself out with it, and let us know any patches you cook up
14:00:38 <planetmaker> I think the idea is: python3 instead of 2 :P
14:00:47 <TrueBrain> that is a very bad idea :)
14:00:53 <TrueBrain> for so many reasons, but most importantly: django :)
14:01:13 <TrueBrain> and also, very few reasons to upgrade to Python 3 atm :)
14:01:29 <TrueBrain> (and then I talk about BaNaNaS, not musa btw :P)
14:01:37 <TrueBrain> musa would be nice if it also ran under Python3 ofc :)
14:01:47 <planetmaker> actually the reasons become more to also use py3
14:02:06 <TrueBrain> and for a server-side only thing that is not really useful
14:02:13 <TrueBrain> client-side stuff, I totally agree :)
14:02:22 <TrueBrain> so I wonder if we are all talking about the same thing here :)
14:03:07 <TrueBrain> so lets rewind, and let me ask: what piece of software do you want to give Python3 support?
14:06:50 <andythenorth> afaik, none of the big Python web frameworks can port to Python 3 yet
14:07:01 <andythenorth> too many deps stuck on python 2
14:07:04 <TrueBrain> so making BaNaNaS Py3 compatible is silly atm :D
14:07:32 <andythenorth> we are going to try moving a small web app to python 3 in 2016
14:07:52 <andythenorth> some stuff in python 3.4 makes it look slightly more possible
14:08:32 <TrueBrain> Py3 is much nicer than Py2
14:08:39 <TrueBrain> just too bad so many libs depend on CPython2 ..
14:09:05 <TrueBrain> and I mention CPython explicitly, because working with PyPy can also be troublesome :D
14:09:26 <TrueBrain> but so what does planetmaker want to port to Py3? (and why?, curious etc :D)
14:11:37 <planetmaker> oh, I thought that's what andy tried to suggest when saying rewrite as he port(ed) everything to py3. A mis-understanding on my part
14:12:12 <TrueBrain> server-side stuff will be a while before they can be ported to Py3, sadly
14:12:25 <TrueBrain> and Py3 is already at version .. what, 3.4?
14:12:32 <TrueBrain> I mean ... slow moving shit there :(
14:12:55 <planetmaker> I also wasn't aware that things look so gloomy wrt the big frameworks and py3
14:13:08 <TrueBrain> in general, I find very few projects running Py3 :(
14:14:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: remember when devzone migrated to psql? :p
14:14:42 <TrueBrain> anyway, andythenorth, the dev vm frosch made should be enough to work on anything BaNaNaS related, as far as I understood
14:14:51 <andythenorth> I don’t even know how to start bananas
14:14:52 <TrueBrain> if you need anything else/more, just poke me, and we will see what I can fix up for you :)
14:15:02 <andythenorth> not today, today is lego + kids day
14:15:07 <frosch123> it's already running in the vm
14:15:25 <frosch123> but well, the vm is from before musa
14:15:27 <andythenorth> has anyone else got any bananas (website) ideas?
14:15:42 * andythenorth ponders reskinning it for amusement
14:15:52 <frosch123> iirc the vm used psql, so no idea whether musad will actually work there
14:16:00 <planetmaker> frosch123, I do :)
14:16:35 <TrueBrain> might be nice to keep everything in the same style
14:17:01 <TrueBrain> but I might be biased :D I hate that so many websites look like Bootstrap these days ..
14:17:02 <andythenorth> there’s no real need to change
14:17:06 <TrueBrain> it is like Frontpage all over again :P
14:17:13 <andythenorth> Bootstrap can be made not like Bootstrap
14:17:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you could - however - be creative and suggest a new style for the whole web presence ;)
14:17:27 <planetmaker> suggest means, implementing, of course :P
14:17:29 <TrueBrain> the current design is from 2008 I believe
14:17:38 <TrueBrain> a total redesign is suggestable ;) :D
14:18:11 <planetmaker> we could hire V453000 for some design elements. But he's been lagging with supplying the promised ones to #openttdcoop :P
14:18:19 <TrueBrain> no, that would take a bit longer ;)
14:18:30 <TrueBrain> hire suggests paying .. :P
14:18:39 <planetmaker> we pay with fame ;)
14:18:52 <TrueBrain> that is not "hire", that is "volunteering" :P
14:18:55 <andythenorth> how is OpenTTD website stuff deployed?
14:19:04 <andythenorth> or is it just manual update to rev?
14:19:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: you have a vm with the complete website :p
14:19:29 <andythenorth> I haven’t looked in it though
14:19:33 <TrueBrain> we used to run test and live, but it turned out the release cycles were so close together
14:19:35 <TrueBrain> there was no use :P
14:19:42 <andythenorth> is there any staging environment
14:19:59 <TrueBrain> took more effort to maintain the test env than anything else :P
14:20:07 <TrueBrain> (we are not mission critical etc)
14:20:14 <TrueBrain> but then again, there hasnt been any real work on it either
14:20:30 <TrueBrain> when there is some real work, which needs reviewing by others, we can dust off the test env
14:20:33 <TrueBrain> shouldnt be a real issue
14:20:54 <TrueBrain> I think test-www is only not routed .. but is still online etc :P
14:23:23 <andythenorth> I can probably open a port in my router to show people local changes
14:23:29 <andythenorth> staging is useful for getting an opinion
14:23:49 <TrueBrain> yeah; like I said, we can always start it up if you want to
14:24:30 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that's why I suggested access to andy on some test VM. Easier to communicate. And possibly collaborate on that
14:24:41 <planetmaker> test VM as hosted on our server
14:24:41 <TrueBrain> lets get there when we get there, tbh
14:25:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: we already have a test vm
14:25:02 <TrueBrain> he can start on his own VM; we can always launch a test VM on the server when he has results to show
14:25:19 <frosch123> there is litterally nothing that prevents doing bananas website development
14:25:32 <andythenorth> and a 5 year old
14:25:32 <frosch123> it just needs someone to stop talking and start working :p
14:25:35 <andythenorth> and a 3 year old
14:25:46 <andythenorth> two poos cleaned up since we started talking :P
14:25:49 <andythenorth> you have no idea
14:26:01 <TrueBrain> and seriously, if you start working on it, and have something to show, just poke me and we arrange something
14:26:17 <TrueBrain> it takes relative little effort to setup the test env
14:26:38 <andythenorth> is there any project tracker for the website?
14:26:50 <andythenorth> or should I just randomly work on stuff?
14:27:05 <frosch123> there is a project an fs and a project on devzone
14:27:07 <TrueBrain> not much more clear :D
14:27:15 <TrueBrain> but yeah, bugs.openttd.org has a Website category
14:27:29 <TrueBrain> not of a lot of use, but .. its there :P
14:30:30 <frosch123> hmm, repository is empty though :p
14:30:47 <TrueBrain> that is just hateful :P
14:31:09 <frosch123> either it got lost on some devzone migration
14:31:12 <frosch123> or i never pushed :p
14:31:53 <planetmaker> I *think* the latter. Due to safety concerns
14:32:06 * andythenorth not so good at Latin: “Ensete ventricosum"
14:32:53 <frosch123> hmm, maybe musa was already around
14:33:11 <frosch123> no other reason to pick such name otherwise :p
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14:39:18 <planetmaker> frosch123, definitely, in no backup however old it is, there is a commit in the openttd-testdev repository
14:40:02 <planetmaker> at least for what we still have. We've snapshots back to August 2013 of the repos
14:41:49 <frosch123> yup, my repo has 2 commits, but no push location
14:43:23 <planetmaker> neither of those two projects is set as public. So... should rather be safe, I think
14:43:55 <frosch123> was more a rhodecode issue back then or something
14:45:04 <planetmaker> yeah, just looking there
14:46:04 <planetmaker> but I can set projects there to private, too
14:46:20 <Samu> now i can start asking questions how to code :)
14:46:51 <planetmaker> thus... can you - without login - see them now, both openttd-website as well as openttd-testenv?
14:47:23 <planetmaker> I can't, but ... :)
14:48:46 <frosch123> both give my a login prompt :)
14:49:13 <planetmaker> do you have a rhodecode one?
14:49:58 <Samu> locks waterclass is canal or river right?
14:50:46 <planetmaker> ok... so adding andy to the project people there?
15:19:41 <supermop> hey is it better to organize sprites as Tram / Class / Segment / running or loading / livery or some other hierarchy?
15:24:28 <planetmaker> supermop, whatever suits you, really
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16:34:43 <Samu> I'm going to create a topic
16:38:58 <Samu> going to concentrate all my ideas in one place, one topic
16:42:02 <Samu> which objects can be built on water?
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17:46:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27175 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-03-01 17:46:04 UTC)
17:46:14 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:15 <DorpsGek> catalan - 14 changes by arnau
17:46:16 <DorpsGek> italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:17 <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
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18:28:45 <Samu> so here's my gigantic topic
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18:37:56 <Alberth> so your unused bit is not unused at all, for you :)
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18:38:23 <Alberth> which means the reported bug is not a bug, but the first step in your patch
18:39:10 <Alberth> ie you should redefine the bits as being used, and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk
18:39:37 <Alberth> (ie what you did in your patch)
18:40:40 <Alberth> except you didn't update the documentation, probably
18:41:08 <Alberth> also, you need a place to store your changes in the code somewhere
18:41:38 <Alberth> although for now, it could be at your machine
19:01:51 <Samu> "and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk", what do you mean with this?
19:03:01 <Alberth> in trunk, the bits are not used, and can get any value they like
19:03:24 <Alberth> in your patch, you have given them meaning, so you care about the value of the bits
19:03:47 <Alberth> thus you should fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value
19:03:53 <Samu> have to edit that html document
19:04:55 <Alberth> your patch in 6235 is not a bug in the trunk code
19:06:13 <Samu> fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value, isn't that what I've done with that patch?
19:06:23 <Samu> ok, i got it on my machine
19:06:27 <Samu> you can delete the bug report
19:06:55 <Alberth> yes, but the patch doesn't belong in the bug tracker, as trunk has no meaning for the bits
19:10:15 <planetmaker> that patch in FS only starts to make sense in the context of *some* other patch(es) which utilize that bit and make use of that meaning
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19:29:08 <Samu> • m3 bits 7..4: owner of road type 1 (tram); OWNER_NONE (10) is stored as OWNER_TOWN (0F)
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23:24:32 <supermop> roll out of bed - first thing to do is wake up computer and start a render
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continue to next day ⏵
