IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-13
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00:00:07 <juzza1> ill try to find the exact rev when it was changed tomorrow
00:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> afair people complained that they couldn't align 4x sprites properly
00:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> because they jumped 4px per click instead of 1px
00:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what the new behaviour is. maybe it needs further improvement
00:09:59 <samu> i can't do this, I'm overwhelmed
00:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: what did you expect? learning c++ in an hour?
00:14:00 <samu> no, of course not, reading the first part of the book and i'm already lost
00:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: it might take years before you can produce actually useful code. but you'll never be able to do that if you stop now.
00:14:32 <samu> there's a lot of stuff to have in mind before starting a project
00:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and about 99% of your projects will never become reality
00:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but that 1% will never exist if you don't try
00:17:14 <samu> gosh, I'm gonna create a word document and write down my ideas first, else I can't start
00:19:34 <samu> my mind gets stuck, i think too much, my thinking suddenly gets lost, my thinking process ... get stuck all the time, I'm always going around and around and never get anywhere
00:19:51 <samu> trying to follow my line of though
00:21:00 <samu> and i have attention deficit
00:21:51 <samu> I wanna do this, but at the same time I get stuck while trying...
00:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> tip: try smaller and smaller projects, until you find one that you can actually follow through
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00:44:05 <raincomplex> sounds like you need to slow down a bit
00:44:50 <raincomplex> i've found that being "stuck" usually means you are having a problem and aren't seeing the problem
00:45:43 <raincomplex> very simple example, say you are drawing a train and you've got the linework but can't get past that
00:45:50 <raincomplex> maybe you aren't deciding what color it should be
00:46:33 <raincomplex> and instead you keep going back and fussing with the lines
00:47:37 <samu> those diagrams can help me
01:19:57 <samu> heading to bed, cyas tomorrow, thx for all the help and incentive words.
01:20:31 <samu> will continue this tomorrow
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02:59:08 <Diablo-D3> openttd needs a warning
03:07:37 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: may contain chunks of crashlanded planes
03:23:30 <Flygon__> Diablo-D3: OpenTTD is addictive for one reason
03:23:52 <Flygon__> It totally followed Ragnarok Online's path in using NewGRFs to pioneer game updates
03:23:55 *** Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
03:24:08 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: man I was in a 25k citybuilder game, constant plane crashing except me
03:24:17 <Flygon> (Ragnarok Online uses a semi-compressed .grf format to store all of it's games files for faster content access)
03:24:30 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: its not like modding that way is new
03:24:38 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: hell, games before doom were doing that shit
03:24:45 <Flygon> I'm not talking about modding :B
03:25:06 <Flygon> Gravity's patches basically came in form of .grf files that were merged with the master .grf file
03:34:13 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: citybuilder kinda sucks
03:34:14 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: thats not new either
03:34:18 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: it does and doesnt
03:34:36 <Diablo-D3> theres a few ... I dunno, bugs I guess, that allow really quick building
03:35:08 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: quake3 did updates to the base content through more paks
03:37:52 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: if i want to play city builder - i'll launch sim city 4, thank you very much
03:38:29 <smoke_fumus> or cities in motion
03:38:53 <smoke_fumus> or just released Cities: Skylines
03:38:58 <smoke_fumus> hm...i should buy that one
03:39:05 <smoke_fumus> wait, almost released. march 10
03:45:58 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: well its nice for multiplayer
03:46:06 <Diablo-D3> it gives the game and end goal
03:54:42 <Flygon> Diablo-D3: Yeah, but RO's the only other game I've personally see explicitly call them GRF's :P
03:56:07 <Diablo-D3> well I doubt its the same format =P
03:56:13 <Diablo-D3> even quake cant keep paks straight
03:56:20 <Diablo-D3> quake1 paks and quake3 pk3s arent the same =P
03:58:11 <Flygon> Diablo: Nah, just the same file extension, terminology, and general purpose (semi-compressing a folder and file tree into a single file for faster disk access)
03:58:38 <Flygon> Tempting to see what happens if OTTD's GRF mechanism was ported to RO, RO's GRFs converted to use OTTD's method, set up a private server
03:58:52 <Flygon> And utterly brainfuck anyone that tries to disassemble the GRF with standard RO tools :B
03:58:54 <Diablo-D3> Im surprised ottd grfs arent just zips.
04:06:44 <Flygon> That's basically what RO's GRFs are
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07:36:00 <peter1138> # Hey, hey, marry me, archie
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08:18:10 <__ln__> hello supermop australis
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08:21:24 <supermop> hello __ln__ somewhere
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10:35:21 * Flygon Australias all over __Ln__
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10:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: you've never seen someone randomly disconnect and reconnect before their ghost timed out?
11:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's friday the 13th
11:15:09 <Diablo-D3> I should start up a openttd server that is like the rest and runs citybuilder....
11:15:13 <Diablo-D3> but the goal is a 100k city.
11:15:26 <Diablo-D3> and it starts the year that everything is available
11:15:35 <Diablo-D3> either that, or starts in the brutal past
11:15:48 <V453000> I need to get running the last piece of YETI in order to make it a true citybuilder :)
11:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you need yeti houses?
11:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the Yeti Extremely Tedious Industries. or so :p
11:18:41 <Diablo-D3> that looks interesting
11:18:50 <Diablo-D3> but no basically I just want huger shit
11:18:58 <Diablo-D3> like enable 14x14 stations
11:19:12 <Diablo-D3> and other crazy shit
11:19:34 <Diablo-D3> its huge when 7x7 just isnt cutting it for 25k =P
11:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's two tiles bigger than default!
11:20:15 <V453000> Diablo-D3: well building only one station per city is pretty boring on itself :P
11:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> default station spread is 12
11:22:24 <planetmaker> surprise, surprise. And eddi is right
11:23:33 <Diablo-D3> then why do servers use such small shit?
11:23:48 <planetmaker> because huge stations are easy-peasy
11:24:06 <V453000> many players abuse the station spread more than utilize it
11:24:08 <planetmaker> allowing small stations is a difficulty setting of sorts
11:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: so, what's stopping you from running 100k city builder?
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11:28:01 <V453000> the problems are real
11:31:07 <Diablo-D3> last time I started a server no one ever joined
11:32:34 <planetmaker> a server running only very occasionally is not very attractive to the occasional player. They prefer to join servers which are there regularily and which they can rely on to provide the experience they expect
11:32:48 <planetmaker> and each server offers a different experience.
11:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, either you have a few friends that you agree on to join the server at the same time, or you have a regularly scheduled time for random people to rely on
11:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> part of the reason why city builder servers are popular is that they start over every few hours
11:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so whenever you have time, you can join a fresh game
11:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you can't, it doesn't matter
11:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so, if you define something like "server runs every day from 18:00 CET to 0:00 CET" [that is probably the user peak hours, ca. 30 years of game time]
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11:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have more success
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12:01:25 <Romazoon> i wanted to know waht you guys think of the avalaible feature to update newgrf. i think it s nice, but it should also allow to update just a single newgrf and not the full list
12:01:41 <V453000> it does allow that I thought?
12:02:16 <Romazoon> how ? i tried highlighting just one newgrf and click on update newgrf, but it does update the all list not just the highlighted one
12:03:21 <V453000> idk, but doing it manually is just one step aside :P
12:03:29 <V453000> ah not in the preset though
12:03:41 <Romazoon> yes that s how i do it ;)
12:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Romazoon: so how often do you think people want to keep an unupdated NewGRF, when they have the upgrade available?
12:05:11 <Romazoon> hmm, as often as the upgrade break compatibility
12:05:18 <V453000> you usually want to at least try it
12:05:23 <V453000> change back eventually
12:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want it, just delete the NewGRF
12:05:36 <V453000> compatibility .. with old savegames?
12:05:56 <Romazoon> some upgrade of newgrf are uncompatible with their oldervesion
12:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably check that if done in a savegame...
12:06:51 <planetmaker> eh, you do not update the used newgrfs of a savegame anyway...
12:06:51 <V453000> oh you can also update stuff in a savegame? :0
12:07:04 <V453000> I would have been surprised :D
12:07:07 <planetmaker> unless you want to break stuff and accepted to know what you do
12:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> outside the savegame, what does it matter?
12:07:14 <planetmaker> but that doesn't need an extra button
12:07:26 <planetmaker> and outside, indeed, breaking compatibility doesn't matter
12:07:49 <Romazoon> ok you guys have make a valid point
12:08:28 <planetmaker> yeah. updating the preset doesn't mean that any file is deleted or that your saves will start using the new versions
12:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's still a difference between making a supposedly working update (according to compatible version), vs. a known broken update
12:09:03 <Romazoon> yes i totally love that feature for my preset....
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12:09:06 <planetmaker> I don't understand what you try to say, Eddi|zuHause
12:09:18 <Romazoon> but i just keep using nightlies of newgrfs...with update regularly
12:10:01 <planetmaker> that doesn't change anything of what was said
12:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: let's suppose i use two GRFs in a savegame, and i downloaded an update for both of them. grf A is marked compatible with its older version, and grf B is marked incompatible (by the author of the GRF)
12:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: now i want to update the grfs in the savegame
12:10:20 <planetmaker> unless *you* overwrite existing files, Romazoon. But that's nothing OpenTTD would do
12:10:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, don't update grfs in a savegame. You know what you do, when you do. That's the deal
12:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it should allow changing the compatible, but disallow changing the incompatible
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12:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not about "knowing what you do"
12:11:18 <Romazoon> Exactly what eddi said
12:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the premise is already that you "know what you do", because you enabled changing of NewGRFs ingame.
12:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the game should still use this data of known compatible/incompatible that the author put in
12:13:25 <planetmaker> often the compatibility is only a claimed compatibility, I recon. Mistakes happen. And easily
12:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also besides the point
12:13:59 <Romazoon> well i don t pretend to know what i do ;) i mess things up often... i try not to report when it s obvious it s my mistake that s it ;)
12:14:39 <planetmaker> in that case it's about newgrf authors knowing what they do. They often don't when it comes to indicating compatibility to earlier versions
12:14:45 <Romazoon> thanks Eddi for finding the right words for me !
12:14:45 <planetmaker> and I cannot even blame them
12:15:09 <planetmaker> it's extremely easy to introduce small incmpatible updates
12:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you still miss the point
12:15:30 <planetmaker> anyhow, assuming that's not an issue, one cannot update compatibly marked newgrfs in a savegame.
12:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> under the premise that EVERYONE knows what they do, and ALL THE DATA is correct. the "upgrade" button should change compatible versions, and disregard incompatible ones
12:16:27 <Romazoon> or let the player choose the ones he wants to upgrade (since he know what he s doing)
12:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if used inside a savegame
12:16:29 <planetmaker> yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames
12:17:01 <planetmaker> Romazoon, no, we do not allow that unless you are a newgrf or scenario developer. Only those know what they do (by indicating they are a developer)
12:19:01 <Romazoon> anyway, thanks for your answer, i wanted to hear your opinion before making a new flyspray suggestion
12:19:13 <Romazoon> and i see it s not necessary to make one
12:19:39 <Romazoon> i will update manually when i really need to, and fully enjoy the "uppgrade" for my preset list
12:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames <-- then the question is, why? all the data is there. use it.
12:19:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, because simply no-one wrote that patch yet
12:20:35 <planetmaker> yes, all data is there. And it could be used. At least for people who are scenario_ or newgrf_developer
12:21:30 <planetmaker> Romazoon, you heard about one opinion. Mine is neither official nor representative
12:22:23 <planetmaker> And the main point is: no-one wrote what you asked. So far I only described the is- state
12:23:14 <Romazoon> i know, but i totally get your point in a way, i m asking for a feature that only "very" advanced player should use, i m not able to develop that patch, and there is a work around solution existing so why bother with it and bring more complexity to the ui
12:23:42 <planetmaker> because at least two people would like it?
12:23:56 <planetmaker> and I don't see much complexity in the UI. The current buttons would do
12:24:11 <Romazoon> well that was also the point of me showing off in here and suggest it ;)
12:25:45 <Romazoon> now the idea is in the air at least, not just in my mind (and Eddi's mind wich maybe also wanted that before)
12:26:29 <Romazoon> while i m here, i have a question regarding opcodes...
12:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably want something different from you...
12:28:52 <Romazoon> what can i expect from putting more opcode than the "original" preset of 10K opcode ?
12:29:39 <Romazoon> would it allow Ai to deal with bigger maps and more vehicles ?
12:31:10 <planetmaker> it's a setting to tune speed of ai and scripts
12:32:53 <Romazoon> so i presume for a larger map i would probably want to set that up ?
12:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that may help, but it may also just clog your CPU
12:33:22 <Romazoon> i experience often on large maps that AI are lazy
12:33:46 <planetmaker> humans are similarily lazy in comparison to map size
12:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, AIs have often not good heuristics in dealing with large amounts of data
12:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so they spend ages analyzing the map, while not doing anything
12:34:31 <planetmaker> but yes, AI handle it worse. They are not taught to ignore most of the map and just getting started on a small part
12:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they too often try to find "the best" solution, instead of going what's "good enough"
12:34:54 <Romazoon> clog my CPU is not what i m looking for ( i m able to do it alone ;) don t need help from AI.)
12:35:04 <planetmaker> Which reminds me: it would be awesome to have a regular AI competition with some more visbility
12:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also why two of the same AI personality get in each others way, not accomplishing anything
12:35:10 <planetmaker> AI development seems mostly stalled
12:35:27 <Flygon> I was actually a robot
12:35:38 <planetmaker> direct order: start competition now :P
12:35:38 <V453000> robots dont have bad ideas
12:35:43 <Romazoon> oh Eddi ! really ?? so that s i guess the problem i encounter with my "multiple Civil Ai"....
12:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Romazoon: probably. AIs think too deterministicly, so they always try the same routes that the other one did already
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12:38:04 <planetmaker> Romazoon, if you play with AI it usually is a good idea to try a different one for each AI company you want
12:39:37 <Romazoon> thanks guys for the answers, make things more clear now :)
12:40:55 <Romazoon> planetmaker : i do use AI only for "eyecandy" purpose, not looking for competition, and i liked the way civil AI built roads, so running multiple of them usually create a nice road network without effort
12:41:23 <Romazoon> but i understand the problem now
12:43:47 <Romazoon> thanks again guys for all your answer, this community rocks. got to go now bye
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12:44:27 <andythenorth> peter1138: you didn’t change address since October, right?
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12:46:04 * andythenorth also has a _shitload_ of 512MB, 1GB and 2GB SODIMMs (laptops), mostly DDR3 by the looks of it
12:46:18 <andythenorth> if anybody wants, will post some, no warranty :D
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12:54:37 <andythenorth> they have -ve value
12:55:03 <andythenorth> the listing fee probably outweighs the sell price
12:55:16 <andythenorth> and the work to list them :P
12:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i always thought that ebay fees were a % of the selling price
12:56:17 <andythenorth> years since I ebayed anything, loads of work to do it
12:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively a % of the initial price
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15:25:43 <Romazoon> i m about to start a small AI competition/test. any advice? any AI maker here that wants his product tested ? I m thinking to do that on a (not dedicated) server with 1.5 beta and common newgrfs,, so if someone is interested to watch it should be possible.
15:32:14 <samu> hi, what happened to Morloth, NoCab creator?
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15:34:09 <samu> there is some nasty problem with ships for this AI
15:34:55 <samu> it slows down the game, he got 200+ ships blocked in a route he created himself, and instead of giving up, he keeps adding more and more
15:35:13 <samu> slowing down the whole game more and more
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15:48:58 <Keen> Hi everyone, I have a question: I was playing on reddit Server 1 some hours ago and at one point my company just vanished and my aircrafts went over to a competitor. How? I had set a password. I was in negative balance at the time (maybe that matters?)
15:54:34 <samu> negative balance: you were being an offer for buyout to other companies
15:55:23 <Keen> oh shiet ok. so, basically, never be in the red?
15:55:45 <samu> yes, try to avoid it for prolongued time
15:55:57 <Keen> I was just confused because there was no message no nothing, everything just vanished
15:56:23 <samu> it should come up in the newspaper, about the merging
15:56:50 <Keen> I deactivated some news messages, maybe that is why I didnt see it
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16:22:36 <Keen> Is this game played competitively? If yes, are there VODs available?
16:23:46 <Alberth> some people play it that way
16:23:53 <Alberth> no idea what VODs are
16:24:40 <Alberth> never seen any, but then again, I don't play competitvely
16:25:09 <Alberth> you should have a look at the various game servers that exist
16:25:44 <samu> there's competitive servers, they maintain highscores, and stuff, but so far I don't know of any who makes vods
16:25:51 <Keen> yeah spectating is one thing, but watching somebody play, maybe even with voice is more insightful
16:26:11 <samu> games tend to last hours
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16:27:13 <Keen> One does not simply become the mightiest landline in half an hour
16:27:22 <Romazoon> i think you can find replay of the BTproserver on youtube
16:28:44 <Romazoon> i think they compete for the fastest growed town (first one to reach the objective)
16:28:52 <Keen> "OpenTTD CityBuilder 4000 on BTPro server 13 [3/3]" something like that?
16:29:13 <Alberth> yeah, city building is the newest form
16:30:00 <samu> not really an engaging player versus player
16:30:50 <samu> if you're actually the player, it can be thrilling
16:31:00 <samu> if you're spectating... meh, not so much
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16:33:50 <Keen> I like to watch competitve players play in other games. You can learn so fast doing that.
16:34:20 <Keen> especially when they comment themselves or somebody who knows what their thought process is
16:37:03 <samu> there's no one on my game, I'm gonna close NoCAB AI
16:40:36 <samu> woah my server is not listed
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16:40:48 <samu> sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't
16:45:14 <samu> local address 192.168.1.3
16:45:23 <samu> bah, i have the port forward on 192.168.1.2
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16:56:31 <NGC3982> samu: Do you need help?
16:56:53 <samu> my modem/router is so confusing to configure
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17:33:54 <samu> got several openttd's open and hosting, i wonder which one will you get in
17:34:03 <samu> no idea what's going on with these servers
17:35:28 <samu> i can't join my own server on my near computer
17:35:48 <NGC3982> Why are you running the testing version on a dedicated server?
17:36:38 <samu> this thing gets messed up with several OpenTTD's open at the same time, I don't know why
17:39:21 <samu> server offline, i dont get it
17:39:43 <samu> and i can't join my own server?
17:40:01 <NGC3982> I can join your server.
17:40:41 <samu> i closed one of openttds, the one where you didn't show
17:40:45 <NGC3982> I do not think you can join your own server by connecting with external non-NAT address.
17:40:54 <NGC3982> If that is your issue.
17:43:03 <samu> openttd #1 - where you did show up
17:43:17 <NGC3982> That server is online.
17:43:23 <samu> openttd #2 - you did not show up here, I closed it
17:43:33 <samu> and now openttd #1 is now offlin
17:43:35 <NGC3982> Oh, you have two servers?
17:44:44 <samu> that link shows openttd #1
17:44:59 <samu> I closed openttd #2 and it made openttd #1 server go offline
17:45:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27145 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2015-02-13 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> malay - 11 changes by TheITChap
17:45:33 <samu> if i start openttd #2 server again, you are re-directed to openttd #1, and it shows on the list
17:46:14 <samu> any ideas what could be wrong here?
17:47:01 <Alberth> they both use the same port?
17:47:24 <Alberth> that's what is wrong then
17:47:51 <samu> how can i even configure that
17:48:09 <Alberth> openttd has an option to set the port
17:49:11 <samu> there is only one openttd.cfg file
17:49:27 <samu> i run the same openttd instance from the same folder multiple times
17:50:04 <samu> multiple openttd's, one openttd.cfg
17:50:08 <Alberth> sounds quite wrong too :)
17:50:38 <Alberth> with option, I mean a command-line option, not an openttd.cfg option
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17:51:02 <Alberth> it's still wrong though, as you probably don't want to share passwords etc
17:51:17 <samu> it's not a dedicated server
17:52:53 <samu> i only intend to have 1 server running
17:53:14 <samu> all the other openttds are for single player testing stuff
17:53:31 <samu> scenario editor, my usual test
17:54:03 <samu> currently I must start two servers to make it work... that's so strange
17:56:11 <samu> deleting windows firewall entries related to openttd
17:56:16 <samu> it will re-create them on next run
17:58:19 <samu> hmm now let me start a 2nd openttd
17:59:41 <samu> can't join my own server with openttd 2, not listed
17:59:52 <samu> i used to be able to do this
18:00:08 <samu> not listed in game, but listed in the website
18:01:59 <samu> it becomes listed when i change advertised to no
18:02:28 <samu> confused, it's working in some unintended way
18:05:12 <samu> well, i can join it, that's all it matters, but it's strange that i have to list non-advertised games
18:06:44 <samu> server addres 192.168.1.3:3979
18:06:51 <samu> meh... it's not picking up the internet address
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18:18:26 <samu> yay, desert tiles have an interesting property
18:19:06 <samu> if I level all the terrain to level 0
18:19:18 <samu> covering all of it in water, then level it back to 1
18:19:34 <samu> the desert tiles will re-emerge exactly where they were before
18:20:14 <samu> it's something like this that I need for river tiles
18:21:55 <samu> nice to know that this behaviour is already implemented in the game
18:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a pig in my minecart and it won't come out...
18:26:46 <samu> woah, no matter what level, the desert tiles will always spawn in the same (x, y) coordinates
18:27:02 <samu> yay, this is such a welcome feature
18:29:01 <samu> I need this for the terraforming river tiles, it will be usefull to maintain river tiles exactly where they were
18:35:29 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: and you can't hit it withou breaking the minecart
18:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i was hoping i could wave a carrot and it would get out and join my other pigs in the farm... haven't tried hitting it yet
18:47:30 *** Defaultti has joined #openttd
18:55:39 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Just push the cart off a cliff ;D
18:57:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
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18:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what would that accomplish?
18:59:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just set fire to everything
19:00:16 * andythenorth has concluded that MC is most enjoyable for 7 year olds
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19:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you're telling me to not enjoy minecraft?
19:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the funniest feature of minecraft i have seen so far is swimming up waterfalls :p
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19:12:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not telling you anything :)
19:38:48 <samu> question, i know there is a basecosts newgrf, but in the original OpenTTD, why do canals, aqueducts and locks have such high costs in them?
19:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: somebody thought they should.
19:39:41 <samu> are they dependent of water costs?
19:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: for the most part, prices in this game are completely arbitrary
19:40:08 <Alberth> no simple way to move smoke of an engine, it seems
19:40:49 <samu> if i want to reduce aqueduct cost, without affecting the cost of clearing water, I just cant?
19:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think there was a property where the smoke should emerge (along the engine's travelling direction
19:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: plus there is the new effects callback
19:41:30 <Alberth> yeah, just want to move the smoke to the chimney, instead of before it :)
19:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Visual effects and wagon power (22) By default, the visual effect of train engines is determined by the traction type (property 19). With this option you can change the type of effect as well as the position of it relative to the vehicle."
19:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nml probably has that encoded in some macro thingie
19:44:25 <Alberth> hmm, I am pretty sure andy used it, and he doesn't do nfo :)
19:44:43 <Alberth> let's see what fishes do
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19:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "visual_effect_and_powered (VISUAL_EFFECT_XXX, offset, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER or DISABLE_WAGON_POWER)"
19:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "An offset of 0 is default, negative values mean more to the front and positive values are backwards. Minimum offset is -8, maximum is 7."
19:47:49 <Alberth> totally missed that, and it's in the middle of the page! thanks
19:48:28 <frosch123> Alberth: i think the smoke position is often wrong for some directions
19:48:42 <frosch123> either the alignment of the smoke-sprite is not centered to the spawning point
19:48:59 <frosch123> or the vehicles do not have the chimney in the same position for all orientations
19:49:13 <frosch123> of course the stretching does not make it easier :)
19:49:34 <frosch123> but if you want to commit to it, there is a callback to allow positioning depending on vehicle orientation :)
19:49:42 <samu> question, who came up with these prices for aqueducts? they're so prohibitive! there must be a reason for this to be the base price
19:50:10 <Alberth> samu: water is supposed to be an obstacle
19:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: like i said. someone pulled a number out of his arse. and that became the price.
19:51:14 <frosch123> no idea how to make it nicer
19:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: are you sure the toolbar is always initialized before the statusbar?
19:53:07 <samu> I must have misconcepted something
19:53:36 <NGC3982> Are you sure you have not underconcepted it?
19:53:46 <samu> the base price of aqueduct has nothing to do with the base price of wate?
19:53:58 <samu> it's totally independent of each other
19:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: there are probably two base costs, one for clearing and one for building
19:54:42 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, ShowVitalWindows
19:55:13 <samu> darn... you just ruined my day
19:56:19 <samu> the prohibitive costs have a solution apparently
19:56:45 <samu> just reduce their base cost, no side effects will happen
19:56:54 <samu> no extra work, no brainstorming of ideas
20:00:06 <Alberth> frosch123: quite ugly indeed :) shouldn't it do some 'max' ?
20:05:31 *** jonty-co1p is now known as jonty-comp
20:06:16 <Alberth> you're changing the window description, hmm, make a constant that is used at both places?
20:06:17 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:07:56 <Alberth> and both descriptions have 640
20:09:06 <frosch123> the toolbar did it like that also before
20:09:51 <samu> suggestion, come up with better prices for ship routes
20:10:54 <samu> it's ok that they're expensive in relation to roads, rails, but the way it currently is, is just way... over the top
20:11:15 <frosch123> i could try moving it to OnInitialPosition
20:12:01 <samu> that thing brings down 10 years of money accumulation instantly
20:12:02 <Alberth> main toolbar is around 700 pixels here
20:12:49 <frosch123> main toolbar sizes according to icon size
20:12:52 <frosch123> the 640 means nothing
20:12:53 <Alberth> samu: use the already available sea instead
20:13:49 <samu> why so much aversion to lowering prices?
20:13:58 <Alberth> frosch123: but you're copying default width, ie 640
20:14:07 <frosch123> or i can make InitializePositionSize virtual, and put it there
20:14:15 <Alberth> samu: that's why there are basecost grfs
20:14:31 <frosch123> Alberth: w->window_desc->default_width = nbuttons * this->smallest_x;
20:14:44 <frosch123> default_width is not used, you can set it to 0
20:14:50 <frosch123> probably i should do that, do avoid confusion
20:15:49 <Alberth> I can live with the current solution
20:16:27 <Alberth> virtual InitializeSizePosition has problems with getting the size of both windows?
20:17:24 <samu> I don't understand the logic
20:17:29 <frosch123> the toolbar is always available when the statusbar is
20:17:37 <frosch123> the problem is resizing the window
20:17:44 <frosch123> where to define its size
20:17:58 <frosch123> InitializePositionSize seems to be the place, if not using default_width
20:18:26 <Alberth> perhaps that's a better place
20:20:38 <samu> buoys are cheap, ship depots are cheap, docks are cheap, then suddenly canals and all the new added structures are overly expensive, don't really get why
20:21:26 <samu> and i need a newgrf to adjust the pricing
20:21:39 <samu> i thought it was something much more complex than just adjusting prices
20:22:06 <samu> but if it's not, then I don't understand why they have these prices
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20:26:49 <samu> they're ships, it's not like they're an aircraft going at 2000 km/h
20:26:59 <samu> or super big trains at super speeds
20:28:21 <Romazoon> well once upon a time, canal were the Highspeed lines of the ancient world
20:28:23 <samu> and planning a water route in-land also needs some terraforming care, it needs quite some space, and flexibility
20:28:31 <Romazoon> and they were damn expensive
20:28:57 <Romazoon> in money, and especially in number of death
20:29:03 <samu> it isn't always possible to have a ship going into some location
20:29:33 <samu> the game won't suddenly turn into "everyone is making ships" if the costs were cheaper
20:29:55 <Romazoon> and nowaday building a canal or an acqueduct is doubtly cheaper than it use to be (inflation is turned on in real world)
20:30:17 <Keen> Reddit server one has a bunch of griefers on it, anyone here able to deal with them?
20:30:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: smoke is easy to control
20:30:58 <andythenorth> except there are some issues with vehicle length :P
20:31:05 <andythenorth> at different rotations
20:31:23 <andythenorth> but that probably only affects my sprites
20:31:34 <andythenorth> I imagine everyone else draws them ‘correctly’
20:33:20 <Alberth> no idea if they are correct, just trying to fix opengfx+trains stuff :)
20:34:38 <frosch123> what do the bounding boxes say?
20:35:09 <frosch123> do their positions make any sense? or is the smoke far away from the bounding boxes?
20:35:34 <frosch123> btw, when do we delete the end-game and highscore windows completely? :p
20:35:41 <samu> i think of ships as slow, yet large capacity buses / trucks
20:35:45 <frosch123> just asking whether it is worth to fix them for zoomgui :)
20:36:09 <samu> I don't see them profiting more than trains, or aircraft
20:36:46 <NGC3982> The fantastic bickering going on the Reddit servers is something else.
20:36:50 <samu> please consider lowering costs for
20:38:38 <Alberth> I wouldn't mind to delete those windows, but it's original ttd stuff
20:38:45 <frosch123> white boxes on white smoke :p
20:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely the offsets in the code are just wrong, and should be fixed
20:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if the smoke looks correct in /\ views
20:39:23 * NGC3982 sees an opportunity to make a Tron mod with that.
20:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: have you tried the same with original vehicles/base set?
20:41:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why? it's ogfx+, not ogfx
20:41:37 <roidal> is there some debug-stuff inside the game? like debug-windows which shows internal data?
20:41:58 <frosch123> search wiki for newgrf and ai debugging tools
20:42:16 <frosch123> and the console, if you do not yet know that one
20:47:58 <frosch123> original have the smoke all in the same place
20:48:01 <Alberth> ogfx+trains is faithfully reproducing errors :)
20:48:10 <frosch123> so it must be wrong for shorter vehicles
20:48:43 <Alberth> ogfx+trains is older than the smoke extension, so that makes sense
20:49:19 <frosch123> no, you could also position the smoke before ogfx+
20:49:29 <frosch123> it's just more advanced now
20:56:11 <Alberth> silly NML parser :) visual_effect_and_powered: visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_STEAM, 0, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER);
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20:58:36 <frosch123> funny how we only enforce a minimal ottd window size of 10x10
21:01:56 * andythenorth needs a snark-mark
21:02:00 <andythenorth> mostly for Lego forums
21:03:35 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
21:07:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess a mirrored exclamation mark is most excellent for marking irony
21:07:57 <andythenorth> I particularly like the inversion about the vertical axis
21:08:51 <frosch123> 'In algebraic chess notation, "?" denotes a bad move, and "??" a blunder, "?!" a dubious move and "!?" an interesting move. For details of all of the chess punctuation see punctuation (chess).' <- heh
21:09:32 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
21:11:46 <frosch123> ok, thanks for review :)
21:13:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27146 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2015-02-13 21:13:45 UTC)
21:13:52 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Make statusbar and chat-entry window use the same width as the toolbar. Otherwise they lack a size definition.
21:20:32 <Alberth> methods coudl use a little doxygen
21:25:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27147 /trunk/src (window.cpp window_gui.h) (2015-02-13 21:25:48 UTC)
21:25:55 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Scale (non-custom) default window sizes according to GUI zoom.
21:26:07 <frosch123> ok, now i have a clean working copy, so i can look at MHL again :p
21:36:31 <Alberth> BB news needs a link to the location in the news :)
21:36:36 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
21:37:15 <samu> I was bored and went to check prices
21:39:36 <samu> used the most expensive bridge
21:40:04 <samu> from 3997 to 52500 is a huge difference
21:40:25 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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21:49:16 <andythenorth> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
21:49:19 <andythenorth> is a tedious warning
21:49:26 <andythenorth> as I can neither suppress it (afaict)
21:49:32 <andythenorth> nor does it tell me which files are affected
21:56:31 <andythenorth> how does nmlc print things to stdout?
21:56:35 * andythenorth could probably look
21:57:38 <andythenorth> maybe —quiet will shut up libpng
21:57:50 <andythenorth> I can’t see valid errors right now due to acres of invalid errors
21:58:06 <andythenorth> but eh, with —quiet, do I see anything? :P
21:59:23 <andythenorth> how do I figure out which libpng bundles is using?
22:00:25 <andythenorth> what _have_ I done
22:11:14 <Alberth> hmm, how is the libpng of bundles of interest?
22:11:59 <Alberth> I wouldn't expect libpng to emit lines with sprite numbers
22:12:01 <frosch> andythenorth: libpng 1.2
22:13:26 <frosch> yeah, those look like nforenum messages
22:13:34 <frosch> do you do custom linking again?
22:13:41 <andythenorth> I’m sure I fixed this once
22:13:51 <andythenorth> my browser url history is full of links to this stuff
22:14:19 <andythenorth> I am now distracted though by why bundles appears to build everything thrice
22:14:32 <andythenorth> I’m going to ignore that :P
22:15:15 <andythenorth> it has been a week of fighting dependencies and ports, I thought I’d won :)
22:19:41 <frosch> start using more chroots and vms
22:20:03 <frosch> do you think i messed up my system by installing pyramid and other silly stuff for firs? :p
22:20:07 <andythenorth> seriously, considered vagrant for dev environments
22:20:27 <andythenorth> it’s considered cheating at work though
22:26:13 * andythenorth strips the bad sRGB profiles with photoshop action
22:26:24 <andythenorth> quick go to bed andythenorth before anythign else breaks :|
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23:00:11 <samu> im coming up with a balanced, and sensible price structure for canals, aqueducks and locks
23:01:22 <samu> aqueducts have an exponential cost
23:02:03 <samu> the longer it is, the costlier, this complicates things a bit for shorter ones, but it makes sense the way it is for long ones. They are not to be abused
23:19:01 <supermop> do people abuse canals?
23:19:38 <supermop> when i do its often to decorate the center of some city
23:19:43 <samu> canals, no, though they're still expensive
23:19:59 <samu> cost is addictive, not exponential for canals
23:20:15 <samu> it's exponential for aqueducts
23:20:43 <samu> i dont wanna make a small aqueducts cheaper than an equivalent in canal tiles
23:20:54 <supermop> in 8 years of playing openttd i don't think i have every built one aquaduct
23:21:43 <samu> i also don't want to make canals so much cheap that they become better means of transportation
23:22:02 <samu> but this exponential thing in aqueducts are complicating my math
23:22:49 <samu> dont want them cheaper than rail or roads for example
23:23:37 <samu> then there's locks, they have a fixed price
23:24:51 <samu> aquaduct of 4 tiles + 2 canal tiles vs 2 locks, 6 tiles
23:25:17 <samu> which one should be more expensive?
23:27:22 <supermop> i dont know depends on what sort of canal you imagine the canals to be
23:27:51 <samu> 2 locks in a row take 6 tiles
23:28:17 <samu> first lock lowers 1 level, second lock raises 1 level
23:28:24 <supermop> a small one for small draft boats should be always cheaper to build aquaduct than any amount of locks, a large one for big ships an aquaduct should not even be alowed
23:28:43 <samu> this can be done the same way with aquaduct
23:29:02 <samu> starts with 1 canal tile, then a 4 sized aquaduct, and ends with 1 more canal tile
23:29:16 <samu> which combination should cost more
23:30:55 <samu> there's an advantage with the aquaduct
23:31:16 <samu> under it, it's possible to create some other routes
23:31:34 <samu> with the 2 locks, that way is barred
23:34:12 <samu> in theory, the aquaduct method should cost more
23:35:42 <samu> it's just that it quickly becomes too costly the longer they are, if I set it that way
23:40:08 <samu> lock costs are also tied to the cost of 2 canal tiles, since 2 of the tiles are actually canals. part of the total cost comes from canal cost
23:43:04 <samu> once i figure a good pricing scheme, i move on to removal costs, and in the end, maintenance costs
continue to next day ⏵
