IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-11
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00:01:18 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
00:03:18 <samu> must I really start with version 0?
00:03:31 <samu> can i start at version 1 immediately?
00:09:38 <samu> Some Vehicles Never Expire v0 - weird version
00:13:39 <samu> SH '125' or 'Dash'? I know it's up to me, but, I need opinions
00:15:25 <samu> part of me is inclined to keep SH 125 available forever, but if I apply the same logic that I used for the other models, the last model that is expired normally is the one that would be changed to stay available forever
00:23:31 <samu> no one has an opinion at all?
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00:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the version does not have to start at 0
00:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 0 is usually used for GRFs that were released before the version existed
01:05:52 <samu> 5 vehicles: Powernaut Diesel (Toyland), 'Dash' (Diesel) (Temperate), 'Turner Turbo' (Diesel) (Sub-Arctic, Sub-Tropic), Flashbang X1 (Toyland), Guru X2 Helicopter (Temperate, Sub-Arctic, Sub-Tropic)
01:16:58 <samu> im testing my grf and already some issue... the order which Powernaut Diesel shows in the list is altered :(
01:18:29 <samu> flashbang x1 expired, what the heck :(
01:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you can reorder the vehicles in the purchase list
01:29:33 <samu> guru x2 helicopter disappeared as well :( what did I do wrong
01:52:47 <samu> ah I see what I did wrong
01:53:03 <samu> NML id numbers are different
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03:06:49 <lilblu> can someone help me intall vs_hard_pack.0.8.165.r25739M.patch
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08:26:30 <supermop> hows the north bit of that island doing today?
08:27:19 * andythenorth is not in the north
08:28:19 <supermop> maybe i am remembering your old forum location of 'spiritual home of TT' which i always assumed was Glasgow
08:32:06 <andythenorth> chipping sodbury
09:28:49 <Namekk> Can you help me with something?:d
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09:29:53 <Namekk> Can someone tell me how to play open TTD with oponent computer
09:32:10 <peter1138> You need to download an AI with the in-game content downloader.
09:33:55 <Namekk> What is AI and where i can download
09:34:36 <peter1138> AI is Artificial Intelligence
09:34:45 <peter1138> And... you download it in game.
09:37:23 <Namekk> Content downloading from there i can download the AI?
09:43:32 <Namekk> i heave many AI files to download what is the best one?
09:44:14 <planetmaker> what's your metric for a 'good AI'?
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11:41:05 <V453000> WTF mess is at the bridge sprites ._.
11:41:12 <V453000> some are recoloured, some stuff is re-used in other places
11:45:30 <V453000> all bridge heads have 2 kinds per track/road?
12:07:07 <V453000> right I think I understand how it works already
12:12:52 <V453000> and the 3-4 tile concrete bridge is just recoloured middle-part of suspension bridges XD
12:18:47 <supermop> the plain 48kmh one?
12:28:01 <V453000> well the good news is that I probably can make very different bridges for every type of thing ... road / rail / monorail / maglev
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12:34:39 <planetmaker> @calc 74*365*21/12
12:34:39 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 47267.5
12:37:00 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by rubidium :: r26582 /trunk/src (station_base.h station_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-11 18:35:34 UTC)
12:37:01 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Feature-ish: quickly decay cargo after about 21 months of not having picked any of the cargo, and prevent houses and industries providing more cargo
12:38:23 <V453000> that is handy actually
12:38:29 <V453000> as some dudes say there
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12:49:24 <supermop> goodnight all up there
12:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: close enough?
12:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> 185 ticks is the usual cargo aging (and rating adjustment, etc.) step
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13:44:19 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable. Though the 44 gui sprites don't hurt :)
13:44:57 <planetmaker> V453000, going for a 1:1 sprite replacement, yes? (Or planning some custom bridge re-definitions, going into nfo territory :P)?
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13:47:36 <raincomplex> is this channel usually this active?
13:48:05 <planetmaker> this is quite normal level, yes
13:48:11 <raincomplex> i had no idea this game had such an active community
13:48:39 <DanMacK> yeah this ain't the half of it... lol
13:48:42 <planetmaker> it's the usual crowd hanging around here ;)
13:48:56 <planetmaker> especially in EU evening
13:49:01 <DanMacK> Some of us have been developing for the game for more than a decade
13:49:27 <planetmaker> he, yeah... I'm always astonished to find how long I'm around here already
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13:50:52 <planetmaker> but then, it only is alive as it is due to new people joining in all the time
13:51:09 * LordAro feels obligated to be active
13:51:27 * DanMacK is active when he feels like it
13:51:34 <LordAro> how's everyone today?
13:52:08 <planetmaker> drowning in burocracy today morning. hopefully better afternoon
13:53:39 <V453000> planetmaker: is 1:1 the ONLY option for a base set, or are there other options?
13:53:51 * LordAro is (hopefully) signing contract for job for the next year
13:53:52 <V453000> I dont have huge problems with 1:1 and it easily tells me what needs to be done
13:53:59 <V453000> perhaps some alternative stuff I can do later Eventually
13:54:31 <V453000> but alternative stuff kind of neglects the main thing :) I would like to keep it simple and make the basic thing nice enough already, even though the "code" is limited in some parts
13:54:34 <planetmaker> V453000, for a base set there 1:1 is the only option
13:54:57 <planetmaker> (and the newgrf bridge specs aren't really spectacular... so not sure it's actually worth the trouble currently)
13:55:26 <V453000> that is all I need to know :)
13:55:30 <V453000> but yeah, 1:1 is fine
13:56:08 <planetmaker> everything 1:1 is what basesets do. You only have a choice of the looks. Not of how the sprites compose for them
13:56:31 <V453000> sure, I understand that, I just asked since you suggested a different method :P
13:56:39 <planetmaker> the only notable exception is about a few things which go into the extra grf of the base set. Mainly rivers and canals
13:56:45 <V453000> just replacing things is most convenient for me too, just replacing sprites is easy code
13:57:41 <planetmaker> did I suggest a different method? I must have been out of my mind :)
13:57:58 <V453000> eh not exactly, but you mentioned hellish nfo :P
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13:58:28 <V453000> mentioning nfo is enough of a crime to consider it a suggestion already!
13:58:29 <planetmaker> nml doesn't know grfspecs for bridges yet
13:58:52 <planetmaker> yup. with replacement it's simplissimo
13:59:56 <V453000> ... btw I do intend to do GUI at some point, but probably later :)
14:00:11 <V453000> I want to handle that with some more care, when I have most of the things to go there
14:01:31 <planetmaker> V453000, especially, GUI also needs 4 sizes. But I thought it easiest to create the GUI sprites along with bridges... as they contain images of the bridge shown
14:02:13 <planetmaker> also... easy sizes: 20x20px as base or or 20x40 or 20x120 for the rectangular ones
14:05:10 <V453000> yeah sure, everything easiest to provide with -thingrelated- :P
14:05:21 <V453000> ... why 4 sizes for gui?
14:05:51 <V453000> ... I just want to make gui as a whole later on, after I have the icons for everything I need :)
14:06:00 <V453000> or at least for most of the things :)
14:06:59 * DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
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14:13:57 <V453000> well then I will just make them in the same postproduction thingy I do everything else in :) auto generation ftw
14:16:20 <planetmaker> we have GUI zoom and want to properly support that, don't we? :D
14:16:34 <planetmaker> not that 4x GUI zoom is in any way sane to use IMHO
14:16:50 <planetmaker> imho it would need 1.5x zoom instead. But meh...
14:16:52 <V453000> I cant say I am very amazed by that feature but sure, no problem for me to create those automatically
14:17:14 <V453000> ALSO, I just realized that creating bridge GUI is usually a side-view, soooo need to render a bridge that way XD
14:17:25 <V453000> --- which means I will probably make them already --- :P
14:18:06 <V453000> ok so 8 extra basic gui sprites
14:18:52 <V453000> 7 bridge types + 1 arrow
14:19:38 <V453000> 70 sprites for suspension + concrete bridges ...
14:22:00 <planetmaker> bridges need an aweful lot of composition when drawn on screen: pylons + base including backside + vehicle + front side
14:22:17 <planetmaker> and then the different bridge tiles along the length all look different :)
14:30:15 <V453000> yeah that is all counted
14:33:14 <V453000> I just need to set up some sane environment for the model layout :D but the bridges are so fucking inconsistent that it isnt exactly easy
14:35:05 <V453000> btw the suspension bridge sprites seem to be very doubled
14:35:16 <V453000> what is the difference between them?
14:36:05 <V453000> one is at the end and one at the start of a bridge I see
14:36:42 <V453000> lets see how they are in original, in ogfx they are 100% identical
14:37:23 <V453000> original has it different :>
14:38:00 <V453000> the extra duplicates are cases for the end of bridge
14:39:01 <planetmaker> ok, so I can stop trying to find out :P
14:39:20 <V453000> yeah :D ogfx wont show it
14:39:26 <V453000> I wonder if zeph fixed that in zbase
14:40:41 <planetmaker> V453000, it's just a matter of how you want the bridge to look. But yeah :)
14:40:55 <V453000> yes. :) but the ends are quite important
14:41:10 <V453000> especially since this means i can make this a lot more than just the small suspension-basement detail
14:41:15 <V453000> think of the possibilitieS! :D
14:41:25 * andythenorth puzzled still about railtypes
14:41:34 <V453000> what puzzles you andy
14:41:37 <LordAro> andythenorth: needs more roadtypes
14:41:47 <andythenorth> got a case of an engine that could be built for either narrow gauge or standard gauge
14:41:55 <andythenorth> but I have no idea if that’s possible
14:42:06 <andythenorth> without introducing some wtf track type, and spamming the menu
14:42:15 <V453000> hm there are some details that ofx also does for some kinds
14:42:30 <andythenorth> currently I have to put the engine in twice, with different track types set
14:42:38 <V453000> hm dont know about that :)
14:42:56 <andythenorth> railtypes are completely mystery to me
14:43:00 <samu> I have a problem, need help solving -> "These vehicle models aren't sorted in the expected order in the purchase lists."
14:43:06 <V453000> you sould be able to buy the vehicle from any compatible depot
14:43:22 <andythenorth> samu: there’s a specific item block in nml for handling purchase sort order
14:43:27 <andythenorth> should be findable in the wiki
14:43:33 <andythenorth> common question :)
14:43:35 <samu> I discovered a Sort ... yes that
14:43:53 <samu> but how do I sort a mix?
14:44:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that depends on the railtypes alone: if the railtypes are deemed compatible and the vehicle powered on both: then it can be built i nthe depot of the other track type
14:45:03 <planetmaker> but that hardly sounds to be the case for standard and narrow gauge. Doesn't make sense. Thus you need to define the vehicle twice
14:45:42 <andythenorth> same answer as last time :)
14:45:46 <samu> problem is that it only sorts the vehicles I edited in relation to each other, and disregards the default untouched vehicle models
14:45:49 <andythenorth> no idea what I thought would have changed
14:45:52 <V453000> oh yeah I just realized I only do it with track type -> universal rail
14:46:19 <andythenorth> V453000: so why would anybody build anything else instead of universal rail?
14:46:24 <samu> edited vehiclews show up at the top of the list
14:46:26 <andythenorth> is it speed limited or something?
14:46:52 <samu> wait, let me explain with a screenshot
14:46:55 <V453000> also, for example my wetrail ships reduce their stats on any other track than wetrail
14:47:03 <V453000> other vehicles dont care, they use universal tracks to full extent
14:47:13 <V453000> visual variety is nice
14:47:26 <V453000> and well, most people hate maglev so they build PURR instead
14:47:36 <V453000> well people build PURR instead of all track types but yeah :P
14:47:41 <andythenorth> so a ‘mixed’ railtype would solve this?
14:47:48 <andythenorth> but then the buy menu is full of crap
14:48:18 <V453000> yes everything is in the purchase menu of universal rail type
14:48:26 <andythenorth> and I have no intention of drawing track
14:48:33 <andythenorth> can I disable a railtype?
14:48:39 <V453000> drawing track is easy
14:48:48 <V453000> you can even take PURR sprites as templates
14:49:04 <andythenorth> it has craploads of sprites
14:49:10 <V453000> I dont think I define ALL sprites though - not tunnels, and bridge reserved track overlays
14:49:15 <V453000> it isnt that many really
14:49:38 <andythenorth> also then I have to redraw the other sprites in Termite, because they’re a bit not-good
14:50:49 * andythenorth puzzled how metros work in Iron Horse
14:50:51 <andythenorth> maybe they don’t
14:51:08 <V453000> metros are just a wtf hack
14:51:37 <samu> the edited engine is dash
14:51:48 <samu> it jumped to the top of the list
14:52:49 <andythenorth> so can’t check metros
14:54:41 <samu> how do I retain the original listing order?
14:55:16 <planetmaker> you have to specify it
14:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: use the "sort_order" property
14:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: "sort_order" takes another vehicle-id that this vehicle will be put in front of
14:57:26 <V453000> ok XD I am really great at meth
14:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the vehicle you override has the ID 16 and is normally put infront of 17, then put "sort_order: 17"
14:57:42 <V453000> it is 234 bridge sprites, plus 8 gui. :) final number
14:58:07 <samu> i was looking at Sort block instead
14:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that is better for full vehicle sets
15:00:17 <planetmaker> "great at meth" sounds like you want a police visit at your home :P
15:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would explain why nowadays most of the meth in germany comes from czechia. :p
15:01:38 <andythenorth> eh? So how come IH metros appear in a game without metro track?
15:01:58 <andythenorth> they are buildable in electric depots
15:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because you set a fallback railtype in the railtype translation table?
15:02:43 <andythenorth> I have absolutely no understanding of railtypes
15:02:58 <andythenorth> let’s start from the position that everything I have understood previously is wrong
15:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to understand it. just do it correctly :p
15:04:12 <andythenorth> right now, it’s better to not do it
15:04:24 <andythenorth> I have no idea what correct means here
15:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as for your "either normal or narrow gauge" vehicle: you have to duplicate it. there is no other (sane) solution
15:04:57 <andythenorth> ok that’s a good answer thanks
15:05:02 <andythenorth> what are the insane solutions?
15:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't discuss those.
15:05:37 <andythenorth> I tend to learn by avoiding mistakes
15:06:29 <andythenorth> on the plus side, my crappy ports manager tool has managed to provide a viable version of freetype
15:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the dual-gauge railtype idea could work, but that would imply that the vehicle has both sets of wheels under it at all time, or can easily be refitted (some wagons do that)
15:06:46 <andythenorth> so now ottd compiles on OS X for me without omitting freetype
15:07:05 <andythenorth> because the vehicle would seamlessly transition between types?
15:07:13 <andythenorth> ok let’s not do that
15:07:21 <andythenorth> it’s not a talgo
15:07:44 <andythenorth> two IDs in that case
15:08:09 * andythenorth makes friends with deepcopy()
15:08:37 <andythenorth> OS X compile, for me at least, now needs hardly any bizarre configure flags
15:08:39 * Eddi|zuHause gets a shuddery feeling in his neck
15:09:09 <andythenorth> ./configure LDFLAGS="-stdlib=libstdc++"
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15:29:54 <V453000> ._. My OpenTTD 3D folder has 35GB in total
15:30:07 <V453000> models and textures for YETI/NUTS/RAWR/CATS/DOOM
15:46:41 <^Spike^> we should really let V pay per MB used on devzone...
15:46:47 <^Spike^> oh wait wrong channel... ;)
15:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but hell will freeze over if MB is on devzone :p
15:59:34 <samu> Unknown property name: sort_order
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16:00:37 <samu> Is it Item ... { ... properties {... sort_order: here ?
16:05:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: which python 3 are you running?
16:05:58 * andythenorth is upgrading, and has options
16:06:03 <andythenorth> don’t want to be too bleeding edge
16:06:05 <samu> that sort block doesn't work as expected
16:07:08 <samu> im editing one train engine per tileset
16:07:20 <samu> can only sort it against itself? pointless
16:07:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, my debian has 3.2.3; jenkins on devzone has the same. At home I probably have python 3.4.x
16:08:31 <andythenorth> I’ll stick there
16:08:41 <andythenorth> not knowing anything about 3.5
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16:09:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:11:31 <juzza1> samu: how did you expect it to work?
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16:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you really should learn how to read syntax diagrams and stuff
16:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: then this question would be trivial to answer.
16:14:27 * andythenorth should learn that too
16:16:17 <planetmaker> samu, it's a separate block. all on its own. outside any vehicle context
16:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: we already established that the sort block is not the right tool here.
16:18:47 <samu> i changed a property for dash, set his model life to 99
16:18:52 <Alberth> Greeting: hi [ hi [ <nickname> ] ]
16:19:11 <samu> by doing this, the purchase list jumped the dash to the top of the list, it didn't retain it's original order
16:19:23 <samu> how do i keep the original order
16:19:51 <Alberth> hi andy, that greeting doesn't fit in my syntax diagram :)
16:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: just go back and read carefully what was already written.
16:20:47 <planetmaker> samu, by using the sort block. For *all* engines. One sort block to rule them all
16:20:56 <planetmaker> and yes. Every word in the documentation matters
16:21:31 <samu> i don't even know their names
16:21:47 <samu> how can i sort those vehicles I didn't touch
16:22:22 <planetmaker> though you only will be able to sort those which you touch
16:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: really i don't know why you do this.
16:23:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, do what?
16:23:18 <andythenorth> eh is python 3.4 a shitload faster than 3.3?
16:23:27 <andythenorth> FIRS compile time seems a bit reduced
16:23:47 <Alberth> oh noes, quickly go back to 3.3 :)
16:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "i want to eat soup with a spoon, which way around do i hold the spoon?" - "use a fork"
16:24:17 <Alberth> tbh I don't know, but yeah, python3 is known to have speed problems, so people are likely working on that
16:26:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, from what I remember, every python >= python3.2.3 should be fine. Any earlier will not work with nmlc
16:27:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: so src/render_docs.py works for you under 3.4? o_O
16:27:46 <Alberth> it did yesterday, or should I delete some files first?
16:28:40 <andythenorth> try a make clean, but should not be significant tbh
16:28:47 <andythenorth> same NameError for me
16:29:03 <samu> sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, etc...]);
16:29:07 <andythenorth> oh it has a shebang
16:29:15 <andythenorth> is that shebang a problem?
16:31:03 <Alberth> /usr/bin/env should be fine, python is python2 for you?
16:31:31 <andythenorth> removing shebang makes no difference anyway
16:32:25 <Alberth> or some specific python2 version
16:32:45 <andythenorth> works under python 2.6.8
16:32:53 <andythenorth> but then that’s not a python 3 conversion :D
16:33:46 <andythenorth> what is lambda anyway :P
16:33:57 <andythenorth> some way to map a function across an iterable?
16:34:31 <samu> sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, turner_turbo_diesel, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98
16:34:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: hg up snakebite
16:36:55 <samu> oh, i forgot the aircraft
16:39:47 <andythenorth> hmm lambda did change 2 to 3
16:40:27 <planetmaker> samu, you could have tried 10 times now :)
16:40:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks, new error now, same issue I think, fixing
16:42:20 <andythenorth> make will work because it calls my scripts under 2.6 or 2.7
16:43:13 <andythenorth> unorderable types
16:44:40 <andythenorth> that function I wrote is hideous
16:44:50 <andythenorth> cargo_unique_industry_combinations()
16:44:54 <Alberth> implement __lt__(self, other) and __eq__(self, other), former should return True iff self < other, latter should return True iff self == other
16:45:29 <Alberth> (and False otherwise :p )
16:46:26 <andythenorth> I can’t understand what data structure my code builds
16:46:32 <andythenorth> but it’s probably horrible
16:50:13 <andythenorth> I can’t discern why I get a list of industries, then walk over it appending it to a new list
16:50:50 <Alberth> it works, and it was late :)
16:50:52 <andythenorth> I think I am doing it ass-backwards
16:52:18 <Alberth> for each cargo, for each economy, get sorted source and target industries?
16:53:20 <Alberth> what's the sorting criterium for industries?
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16:58:51 <samu> so i can use numbers after all
17:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think not using the sort block is better
17:01:20 <samu> is there another way to do it?
17:02:41 <Alberth> yes, don't try to force the user into your ideas
17:03:54 <Alberth> but letting go of ideas is hard to do
17:05:50 <Alberth> systems normally have sane behavior. If you have to fight a system, it may be less wise what you want than you think
17:06:31 * andythenorth will try and rewrite this docs rendering later
17:06:38 <andythenorth> some of it looks crappy
17:07:14 <samu> i have no idea if you're talking to me Alberth
17:07:38 <Alberth> samu: except for the "k", I was
17:09:23 <samu> did I break the system or, I made a work around the system? erm? hmm
17:09:30 <samu> hard to understand what you say
17:10:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: found some random OS X DVDs, 10.5 and a 10.6 upgrade (newest that mac will take). Want them in the post
17:10:28 <andythenorth> free to good home, no warranty :P
17:10:44 <Alberth> samu: you added a "sort" to force the system into sorting as you see, rather than let the system decide how to handle the new engines
17:11:00 <Alberth> and the sorting has nothing to do with lengthening model life
17:13:46 <samu> yes, i wanted to retain the same order it had before, but if this is the only way to do it
17:14:15 <Alberth> it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind
17:14:20 <andythenorth> hrm, so just 2 functions to fix, and FIRS should work with python 3
17:14:33 <andythenorth> Alberth the solution is to have a lot of ideas
17:14:43 <andythenorth> then you get more used to killing them
17:14:55 <andythenorth> then you’re prepared to kill even the good ones
17:15:30 <Alberth> Deriving from "(object)" isn't needed with Python3 either
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17:17:38 <samu> if there's another way to do the same, please tell me
17:18:03 <andythenorth> I might try 2to3 again later
17:18:11 <andythenorth> once I have a stable point
17:18:20 <Alberth> samu: you're not reading what I say, but that's ok
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17:18:50 <samu> I do, but maybe I just don't understand the whole thing
17:19:30 <Alberth> (18:14:15) Alberth: it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind <-- just this line
17:32:43 <andythenorth> huh, FIRS makefile hates me :)
17:33:03 <andythenorth> removed PYTHONPATH2 and PYTHON2 vars
17:33:11 <andythenorth> which are unused according to grep
17:33:46 <andythenorth> I should learn to grep better
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17:34:37 <NGC3982> So, is AI in dedicated multiplayer servers a good idea?
17:35:19 <samu> yes, but it has to be a very slow AI, else it's too intrusive
17:35:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes please
17:36:13 <samu> some of them lag when thinking :(
17:36:44 <andythenorth> peter1138: I’ve got your address, NFI if they’ll work :)
17:36:49 <samu> some others lag because they build too many vehicles
17:37:36 <andythenorth> so why does the FIRS makefile depend on python 2?
17:37:55 <andythenorth> REPO_DAYS_SINCE_2000 ?= $(shell $(PYTHON2) -c "from datetime import date; print (date(`echo "$(REPO_DATE)" | sed s/-/,/g | sed s/,0/,/g`)-date(2000,1,1)).days")
17:40:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, hg also depends on python2. So it's a no-op
17:41:15 <planetmaker> it's pointless to determine version in hg's absence
17:42:38 <samu> lel, i bet no one will use them
17:44:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: thanks
17:45:01 <andythenorth> hg not ported to python 3 yet?
17:45:28 <planetmaker> there are issues with handling byte streams in py3
17:45:38 <planetmaker> from what my memory serves me
17:45:45 <andythenorth> “Python 3.x has proven notoriously difficult to support, due to our pervasive dependence on a byte-based encoding strategy and string manipulation.”
17:46:01 <andythenorth> no serious plan to move
17:46:23 <planetmaker> no urgency. Though there is more than nothing. But nothing which is backward compatible
17:46:43 <planetmaker> and regressions in a VCS... that's a no-go 1st class :)
17:46:51 <andythenorth> well, I’ll leave the python 2 thing in place
17:56:50 <Alberth> there are very few players in #openttd :)
17:58:24 <samu> is it joinable at least?
17:58:48 <planetmaker> if it's in the server list there: yes
17:59:08 <samu> what about the newgrf requirement
17:59:16 <Alberth> I can't join, don't have 1.5.0 beta-1
17:59:43 <Alberth> if it's on bananas, the game can automatically download it for the player
18:00:32 <samu> those downloads kinda ruin it
18:01:03 <Alberth> it's better than having to look through the forum and find all the newgrfs that a server uses
18:02:02 <samu> AI's dont require downloads
18:02:36 <planetmaker> if I can download it right from the server join lobby, I don't see an obstacle there
18:06:35 <samu> ah crap i didn't start the AIs on time
18:06:55 <samu> they took one of the AI slots
18:07:38 <samu> why can't the game reserve slots for AIs
18:07:49 <samu> prevent any player creating a company in those slots?
18:09:05 <Alberth> why is that a problem at all?
18:09:45 <samu> but it's fine for singleplayer
18:10:08 <planetmaker> samu, there are no 'player slots' or 'ai slots'. There's only companies
18:14:51 <samu> well, then I got a slightly different approach for the problem
18:15:15 <samu> starting a multiplayer game will immediately start all AIs
18:16:08 <Alberth> why is it a problem to have an AI company elsewhere in the company list?
18:17:29 <samu> they won't spawn I believe
18:18:25 <samu> but I believe they only spawn in the 3 next companies created after mine, so, company 2, 3 and 4
18:18:43 <samu> unless things have changed
18:19:16 <Alberth> it hasn't changed, it has always worked, afaik
18:19:19 <samu> if someone creates company 2 before the AI, there will be only 2 AIs
18:19:54 <samu> I'm gonna wait and see what happens in this game
18:20:29 <Alberth> hmm, the problem is you don't set 3 AIs, you set 3 players
18:20:52 <Alberth> and a player can also be a human kplayer
18:23:01 <raincomplex> does non-stop prevent maintenance?
18:23:23 <raincomplex> only assigning an explicit service order?
18:23:26 <Alberth> it means it doesn't stop at intermediate stations
18:24:08 <Alberth> or disabling breakdowns, and enabling no service if no breakdowns
18:24:52 <raincomplex> i'm having trouble hiding depots
18:25:07 <raincomplex> could it be that they're just not far enough from the mainline?
18:25:28 <raincomplex> it's on the exit-only side of a station
18:25:39 <raincomplex> and some trains are going into the station to get to the depot
18:26:01 <raincomplex> and because the exit isn't all-directions, they then get lost...
18:26:38 <samu> ah alberth, this is what happened
18:26:54 <samu> it pushed one slot below 4
18:27:09 <Alberth> raincomplex: I build all junctions such that a train can go in any direction it wants
18:27:40 <Alberth> samu: type start_ai in the console
18:27:43 <samu> slot 5 is set to Random AI, I didn't configure it at all
18:27:56 <samu> and slot 2 is now occupied by a human player
18:28:20 <samu> it was supposed to spawn Trans
18:29:03 <Wolf01> uhm, I might be a lot slow typing for some time, just changed the keyboard
18:29:04 <glx> start the ai and password protect the company before anybody joins
18:30:44 <samu> i mean, gone in the sense, it won't spawn
18:31:04 <samu> because a player created a company first before the AI
18:31:20 <glx> you can spawn it manually elsewhere
18:31:55 <samu> wish it could be automated
18:32:11 <glx> use a script to do it on server start
18:33:02 <raincomplex> i don't suppose anyone knows offhand how far away a train will look for a depot for automatic maintenance
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18:33:40 <glx> less that 30 tiles I think
18:34:47 <raincomplex> i may have to just bite the bullet and make this junction go both ways
18:35:06 <raincomplex> of all the solutions i've considered i think that's probably the most sane haha
18:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly a console-only setting
18:35:49 <raincomplex> yeah i don't see it in the adv settings dialog
18:36:19 <glx> pf settings are not in the window usually :)
18:36:26 <Alberth> there are a zillion path finder settings :)
18:37:01 <raincomplex> rail lookahead max signals?
18:37:04 <raincomplex> or is it separate
18:37:37 <raincomplex> max go to depot penalty
18:37:45 <raincomplex> a combination of the two?
18:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds more like it
18:38:28 <raincomplex> if my depots are over 10 signals away, will trains still see them if the penalty isn't above max goto depot
18:38:29 <Alberth> a signal is a penalty, how much is probably also configurable
18:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a reason why these settings are hidden in the console. you should not change them if you're not absolutely sure what they do
18:38:58 <raincomplex> haha, no i'm not going to change them
18:39:06 <raincomplex> i'm just wondering about using them to my advantage
18:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the signal lookahead has nothing to do with it, it basically says "ignore other trains beyond this point, just look at the raw tracks"
18:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> because chances are, the trains won't be there by the time you get there
18:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, depot search should be changed so that it starts a new pathfinder run from the depot to the real destination, and then consider the difference to the direct route
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18:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> this way, trains are not going to get lost as easily
18:44:54 <raincomplex> the bit about depot hiding
18:45:06 <raincomplex> because i'm doing that and my depots are still visible
18:47:03 <V453000> it is very current :)
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18:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> raincomplex: that setup requires 90° turns to be disabled
18:49:05 <raincomplex> yeah i've got them off
18:49:18 <raincomplex> i'm getting a screenshot
18:51:24 <raincomplex> so occasionally trains from the top station go to the problem depot
18:51:27 <samu> did you remove the quantum effect for road vehicles?
18:51:46 <raincomplex> i believe it only happens if there's a space in problem depot's station
18:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the setting is gone, because it didn't actually affect the quantum effect anyway.
18:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it was always enabled
18:53:11 <samu> I like to disable it, that is
18:53:23 <planetmaker> no, you don't want that
18:53:36 <planetmaker> it'll leave you with unsolvable traffic jams
18:54:08 <planetmaker> by not being active
18:54:28 <samu> it actually sorts it out
18:54:41 <planetmaker> thus you want to have it active.
18:55:18 <samu> if it's active, the trucks will wait for the one that is loading to depart, jamming every other truck behind that doesn't happen to head to that station
18:55:41 <samu> I prefer when they're always moving
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18:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: that's not what the "quantum effect" is anyway.
18:58:42 <samu> what was the option that changed this behaviour?
18:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> pf.roadveh_queue on the console
19:00:03 <samu> it would only work on loading bays
19:00:36 <samu> the other drive-through stations aren't affected by this setting
19:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it's still in the GUI
19:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you need it in the gui, if you run a dedicated server?
19:03:24 <samu> i'm playing in the server
19:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not a dedicated server? (you made it sound like that earlier)
19:04:50 <samu> i went to multiplayer start new server, entered a name and that was it
19:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> right. that's not a dedicated server.
19:05:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if that is not enough information for you to change the setting, i cannot help you.
19:08:31 <samu> it's fine, but why hide some settings from the gui
19:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> because some people think there are too many settings
19:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hiding from gui happens mainly for 2 reasons: 1) the setting is really dangerous, and should only be changed by people with a deep understanding of the game mechanics involved, or b) the setting is so rarely changed that it only wastes space
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19:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> in 1) are for example most of the pathfinder tweaks, or the developer options.
19:15:12 <samu> insane category could have that warning in a big red window
19:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> warnings in big red windows happen to be completely ineffective.
19:22:43 <samu> I know, hide this insane preset from default installations, but let us see it if we set it to be displayed via console.
19:23:57 <samu> setting I_want_to_see_the_insane_preset = on
19:31:22 <samu> service helicopters at helipads is a bad setting when combined with never service if breakdowns are disabled
19:32:09 <samu> when trying to replace an old model to a new model, the heli will never head to the hangar
19:32:43 <andythenorth> hmm can’t use + operator on two python sets
19:32:49 <andythenorth> makes sense I guess
19:33:54 <samu> or even when trying to renew an aged model
19:34:16 <samu> i disable the 2nd option
19:38:14 <andythenorth> eh it’s lost a bit of sorting I guess
19:40:34 <Alberth> industry_find_industries_active_in_economy_for_cargo make 'result' a set in the first place, instead of converting at the end?
19:41:11 <andythenorth> never thought of doing that :)
19:41:55 <andythenorth> can’t append to a set, must be some add method or such
19:42:51 <Alberth> I guess you want to sort accepted_by and produced_by ?
19:43:09 <andythenorth> worryingly, I think I just understood key=
19:43:14 <Alberth> perhaps convert them to list before the condition
19:43:21 <andythenorth> it takes a function as the arg :o
19:43:26 <Alberth> :O you're becoming expert :)
19:43:46 <andythenorth> presumably that all goes wrong if the function number of args > 1
19:43:53 <Alberth> yes, it takes a function that is called while sorting
19:44:24 <Alberth> it is assumed to return a field from the elements you give to sort
19:44:38 <Alberth> ie the field you sort on
19:44:47 <andythenorth> lucky that it does eh
19:45:17 <andythenorth> just one function left to convert hopefully
19:46:01 <Alberth> it's always amazing how few lines you need in Python :)
19:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i usually put a lambda into key (or cmp)
19:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> cmp, if it's a little more complicated
19:56:23 <andythenorth> python 3 seems angry about the existing lambdas
19:56:32 <andythenorth> possibly the behaviour changed and they need migrated
19:58:05 <andythenorth> anyway, barring bugs, FIRS is now python 3
19:58:27 <andythenorth> maybe I should run 2to3 over it
20:00:41 <samu> competition for a titlegame
20:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no experience with python3
20:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the satisfaction of fame and glory for a year
20:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: really, the same as making a NewGRF, or a screenshot thread, or any other kind of contribution to the community
20:03:22 <andythenorth> now I need to convert Squid, Road Hog, and Iron Horse
20:03:25 <samu> i'm gonna submit tyland :)
20:03:33 <andythenorth> I should write a code generator for all newgrfs
20:03:36 <andythenorth> like a framework
20:03:40 <andythenorth> highly configurable
20:04:35 <samu> toyland submissions won't stand a chance, I bet
20:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we had at least one in the past, it quickly fell out of the vote :p
20:05:14 <Zuu> I once submitted a game with islands that made up the version number. 1.1 I think it was.
20:05:41 <Zuu> I don't remember if it also was toyland or just wierd in that way. :-p
20:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> at the latest point, when people see the screenshot of toyland with the original base set.
20:07:08 <Zuu> Given more heightlimits, a screen that is a large hill slope may be interesting to really convice players that there are more than 16 levels now.
20:07:52 <Zuu> Or an ocean with only small islands. Hard to combine with more hegiht limits though. :-)
20:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see long slopes working well on a relatively small title screen
20:08:56 <samu> can the background title follow a vehicle?
20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> although that should be possible to implement
20:09:48 <samu> I would put it following a ship, going to different places to "show" stuff
20:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle it would be following would always be hidden by the menu
20:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody does that...
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20:11:31 <Zuu> Still, even if you don't see the ship, you will get a moving tile screen.
20:11:33 *** zeknurn has joined #openttd
20:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, once upon a time there was a suggestion that the title screen could have signs, and jump to the location of a different sign every X seconds
20:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that was ever implemented
20:13:03 <andythenorth> already I have enough with the crossing bells
20:13:34 <andythenorth> I often have the title screen around for a long time when developing newgrfs
20:13:58 <Zuu> andythenorth: So you suggest that 'move screen' should be combined with a sound effect? :-)
20:14:12 <andythenorth> maybe boat horns
20:14:32 <andythenorth> I think I set a config thing once to suppress the bells, or do I misremember?
20:14:49 <Zuu> May have been a TTDP feature.
20:15:28 <raincomplex> is there a demo mode, like following random vehicles for certain amounts of time?
20:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there might have been a NewGRF
20:15:45 <Zuu> not until you make it :-)
20:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but NewGRFs cannot work on the main title anymore
20:20:30 <andythenorth> urgh, I broke grfcodec
20:20:41 <andythenorth> that will teach me to upgrade ports
20:21:20 <andythenorth> make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng15/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop.
20:21:31 <andythenorth> my libpng got upgraded today
20:22:12 <Alberth> or rerun ./configure or os
20:22:56 <Alberth> oh, just an executable?
20:23:29 * andythenorth wonders if there’s something src
20:24:10 <Alberth> devzone projects/grcodec
20:24:24 <andythenorth> I have that checked out
20:24:34 <andythenorth> wondering if I need a Makefile.local or something
20:25:14 <andythenorth> never upgrade ports :(
20:25:20 <planetmaker> make reconfigure; make
20:25:25 <planetmaker> that should usually work
20:25:45 <andythenorth> no target for reconfigure
20:25:58 <Alberth> libpng-config according to the make file, eg libpng-config --libs
20:26:03 <planetmaker> not after make clean. Then ./configure; make
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20:26:11 <planetmaker> with whatever flags you use(d)
20:26:16 <andythenorth> there is no ./configure
20:26:55 <planetmaker> eh. *what* do you try to build?
20:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "never update" is not a solution
20:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he said grfcodec
20:27:26 <andythenorth> I trade working freetype against non-compiling grfcodec
20:27:33 <andythenorth> one step forward, one step backward
20:27:57 <andythenorth> I now have libpng @1.6.16 (graphics)
20:28:09 <andythenorth> libpng15 is expected
20:28:23 <andythenorth> maybe I can edit a .o file
20:28:43 <andythenorth> yeah, that kills the .o files thanks
20:28:52 <andythenorth> I recall this issue last time I ran port upgrade
20:29:15 <andythenorth> maybe I should alias ./configure :P
20:31:40 <andythenorth> ho, new warnings
20:31:45 <andythenorth> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
20:31:48 <andythenorth> bad pngs I guess
20:37:27 <raincomplex> pretty sure you can safely ignore that
20:37:37 <raincomplex> i get it all the time with PNGs output by photoshop
20:38:27 <andythenorth> these are from photoshop
20:38:30 <raincomplex> no idea if there's actually some kind of minute color skewing occurring or not
20:38:38 <andythenorth> they’re paletted, so no
20:38:40 <raincomplex> but i haven't noticed anything obvious
20:39:01 <raincomplex> well the palette could still not come through right
20:39:06 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27143 /extra/website/templates (footer.html header.html) (2015-02-11 20:38:59 UTC)
20:39:07 <DorpsGek> [website] -Change: New links to and logo for our server sponsor OVH in header and footer
20:39:17 <raincomplex> color is actually pretty complicated :P
20:39:19 <andythenorth> the game can only show the colours it can show :)
20:40:14 <andythenorth> actually, under 32bpp, that probably doesn’t hold :(
20:40:43 <andythenorth> whatever the new title game is, it should feature *many* crossings
20:40:47 <andythenorth> and *many* boats
20:40:51 <andythenorth> and buses leaving depots
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21:04:29 <samu> but it's to explain something
21:10:34 <samu> does the coal subsidence disaster destroy river tiles?
21:12:40 <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if it did
21:16:35 <andythenorth> why is my computer slow :(
21:16:38 <samu> I had an idea for rivers that has been evolving in my mind, theoryzing how they could be improved, but it's difficult to explain
21:16:48 <andythenorth> only 100% of CPU is used :(
21:17:46 <samu> that photoshop image sums many of the ideas
21:18:13 <Zuu> including water flows upwards?
21:18:54 <samu> the river tile is "floodable"
21:19:30 <samu> it can be "destroyed" but what it actually destroys, is the water in it
21:20:10 <samu> it's like they're part of the landscape, much like desert tiles in tropic
21:20:23 <samu> you destroy them, but they come back to its original form
21:20:59 <Zuu> Sounds like a sound idea.
21:21:30 <andythenorth> ImportError: cannot import name 'PixaColour'
21:21:36 <andythenorth> trying to run Iron Horse under python 3
21:21:41 <andythenorth> imports changed in python 3?
21:22:09 <Zuu> The part about water flooding upwards can be discussed, but flodding on the same level and that it is part of the landscape sounds good.
21:22:12 <andythenorth> module will import directly into python prompt
21:22:19 <samu> then the costs for building ship infrastructure could hopefully be drastically reduced in price
21:22:38 <samu> you build the structure, but not with water in it
21:22:44 <samu> you let the water do its job
21:22:52 <samu> it floods your infrastructure
21:23:04 <samu> hopefully this reduces the cost
21:23:37 * andythenorth contemplates learning about imports
21:23:57 <Alberth> samu: use a basecost mod grf ?
21:24:00 <andythenorth> guess who did from pixa import *
21:24:04 <andythenorth> is that now banned?
21:24:25 <andythenorth> or maybe people just gripe about it
21:24:26 <Alberth> not just highly discouraged?
21:24:29 <samu> i don't know the whole basecost mod
21:24:38 <samu> but when it involves water, it's quite complex
21:24:45 <samu> it adds the cost of water
21:26:33 <samu> my idea is to keep the cost of the water for cleaning the infrastructure, assuming it's already flooded
21:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is probably no good reason to do "from _ import *" in most cases
21:27:14 <andythenorth> in the package __init__.py
21:27:21 <andythenorth> I have changed from pixa import *
21:27:23 <andythenorth> to from pixa.pixa import *
21:27:33 <andythenorth> which appears to work
21:27:39 <andythenorth> something to do with relative imports
21:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in __init__.py you probably want to hide internals, so only import the external interface
21:28:37 <andythenorth> explicit import declarations?
21:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "from _ import a,b,c,x"
21:29:22 <samu> another problem I have with the current river tiles is upon map generation
21:30:12 <samu> it's not friendly for locks
21:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the current locks are just terrible
21:30:43 <samu> if the lock is a 1x3 structure
21:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it has nothing to do with how rivers are generated
21:31:35 <samu> the tile where it is put could be 3x3 or 5x3, with entry and exit indicators, so to say where the next river tile will be put and where it came from
21:32:15 <samu> else it's too hard to explain
21:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i had this idea of "traffic objects". which are placed like eyecandy objects, but they have a statemachine for vehicles travelling through them, like airports and bus stations
21:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> applications could be better locks, drawbridges, highways, ...
21:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> locks that actually lock, and move the ship vertically
21:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> more layout variations
21:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or ship lifts that cover higher altitudes
21:36:23 <andythenorth> non-linear tunnels
21:36:33 <andythenorth> turntables and roundhouses
21:36:46 <andythenorth> truck loading bays
21:37:00 <andythenorth> clover leaf junctions
21:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> funiculars: probably not, that's more like another traffic type (pipes). vehicle ferries: short river ferries maybe, but not long-distance ocean ones. tunnels: unlikely. roundhouses: would need an additional depot overhaul. truck loading bays: not talking about stations here, but it's kind of on the same lines. clover leaf junctions: kinda part of "highways"
21:40:12 <Alberth> no traffic object for loading a ferry, and another one for unloading?
21:40:33 <Alberth> hmm, intermediate storage is a problem of course
21:41:08 <andythenorth> nah, just do limited-length ferries
21:41:09 <Alberth> perhaps a bit bridge-like :p
21:41:32 <andythenorth> would be a nice transport type
21:41:40 <andythenorth> being as the game is done
21:43:07 <samu> so that's an example. at the points 0,-2 and 0,2 there's no water tiles, but it would indicate where the world generating would continue the river
21:43:09 <Alberth> why would nature care for lock building?
21:43:35 <samu> because no one likes ships
21:43:45 <andythenorth> what time of day is ‘too late to be converting things to python 3’?
21:44:05 <Alberth> :O that happens daily?
21:44:29 <Alberth> for me, it's too late for just about anything :p
21:44:36 <andythenorth> I think I hit that point
21:44:56 <Alberth> then you stop, go to sleep, try again to morrow
21:45:02 <samu> 1,0 and -1,0 would have no possibility to the river generator spawn another waterfall
21:45:03 <andythenorth> I wanted to see if Iron Horse compiles faster with py3 nml
21:45:14 <andythenorth> but I cba to put the py2 + py3 makefile stuff in
21:45:24 <andythenorth> converting seems…better…but slower
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21:46:07 <andythenorth> I have to remember not to break it by over-writing it with 0.4x
21:46:09 <Alberth> build nml file, compile manually once with old nml, and once with new nml ?
21:46:59 <samu> also the tyles at 0,0, 0,1 and 0,-1 must have that shape exactly like that
21:47:05 <andythenorth> also sleeping time soon
21:47:47 <samu> that's some ideas for the river generator
21:47:52 <samu> but I guess nature is nature
21:49:07 <samu> if I can't touch the way rivers are created, then... things become quite hard for the ideas I had theoryzed
21:49:41 <planetmaker> samu, Sure it can be touched. But it needs actually writing that code change
21:49:51 <andythenorth> rivers need improved
21:49:54 <andythenorth> but nobody knows how
21:51:05 <samu> if, or when rivers are indestructible and part of the landscape, much like a desert tile and grass tile
21:51:21 <samu> it would be preferable for them to spawn in a friendly way
22:01:11 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:04:06 <samu> uhm, people fleeing because of river tiles
22:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> what time of day is ‘too late to be converting things to python 3’? <-- "it's 4 o'clock *somewhere*"?
22:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> aw, i missed him.
22:05:24 <Diablo-D3> time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so
22:06:45 <samu> I would need something like this to check tiles, or structures: "is flooded", "is floodable", "must build on top of floodable"
22:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: i don't think you're approaching this from the right angle
22:09:09 <samu> rivers are already set in landscape
22:09:24 <samu> they can only be cleansed of water
22:09:37 <samu> so, "is flooded" = true/false
22:10:19 <samu> yeah, this needs thinking
22:10:47 <samu> how would you approach this
22:11:57 <samu> a lock, upon placement, would require something like needing a "is floodable" = true tile
22:12:49 <samu> but that tile could be currently dry, "is flooded" = false or true, doesnt' matter
22:13:22 <samu> ships would only walk on "is flooded" tiles
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22:14:17 <samu> if there is floodable tiles, but no water source that would actually flood those tiles, there would be no possibility to have ships in that route
22:15:09 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:15:10 <samu> water will spread when in contact with "is floodable" = true
22:15:40 <samu> but a company can't build water, it needs a source
22:16:08 <samu> all the company can do is build the infrastructure, which can be flooded
22:16:27 <samu> it doesn't provide water immediately upon placement, you see what I mean?
22:16:32 <planetmaker> ah, that's what you mean
22:16:50 <planetmaker> you mean canals shouldn't be watered initially, but only when connected to water
22:17:36 <samu> i hope this reduces the costs of building water lanes
22:17:47 <samu> but i dunno how the costs work exactly
22:18:04 <samu> if water is involved, I just don't understand the whole deal
22:18:20 <samu> just attempting to drasticaly reduce the cost of building water routes this way
22:19:23 <samu> but once you need to remove that infrastructure, and if it is currently in the state "is flooded" = true, that would cost MAJOR to clean, because it has water
22:19:48 <Zuu> If it is all about cost, then use Ctrl + Alt + C
22:19:51 <samu> upon construction = cheap, upon removing = costly
22:21:10 <samu> when building a canal tile, it's actually built in a dried state
22:21:24 <samu> if connected to a water tile, it floods
22:21:37 <samu> so, yeah, pretty much all infrastructure would become cheaper to build
22:23:01 <samu> i dont want to cheap to build water stuff
22:26:00 <samu> one other thing about river tiles which I am unsure how to deal with, is the terraforming
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22:27:44 <samu> Ideally terraforming river tiles could become impossible
22:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i found when i dabbled in rivers, and the only sane conclusion was: don't terraform, allow rivers on any kind of tile instead. but that never happened
22:29:43 <samu> If I go back to the idea of making rivers more lock-friendly, terraforming would be better if forbidden, a compromise, which may suck, depending on the point of view
22:30:21 <Diablo-D3> I kinda wish rivers flowed into bodies of water better
22:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: but terraforming rivers happens all the time
22:30:38 <Diablo-D3> or if you delete a river panel, it tries to reconnect by flowing around whatever you just built
22:31:03 <samu> rivers can't be destroyed if they're part of landscape
22:31:36 <Diablo-D3> it costs me like $20k to delete a damned river tile
22:31:37 <samu> clear them = becomes dry, but does not really destroy the river
22:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> loads of people rerouted rivers
22:32:16 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I just kinda wish rivers could get bigger
22:32:58 <Diablo-D3> like two or three tiles wide
22:33:29 <Diablo-D3> water has like no use during competitive play
22:34:23 <samu> it's as if rivers were roads
22:35:01 <Diablo-D3> but then rivers should like, expand on their own
22:35:08 <Diablo-D3> like how cities grow roads
22:35:10 <samu> they have two states, dried, flooded, no, they can't expand
22:35:20 <samu> you can build canals connected to them
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22:35:45 <samu> they're flooded if adjacent to a source of water, in this case, a flooded river tile
22:35:47 <Diablo-D3> yeah Ive built canals before
22:36:03 <Diablo-D3> but wait, my canals started wet
22:36:29 <samu> I know, I'm only theoryzing an idea for them
22:36:54 <Diablo-D3> that'd be interesting
22:37:02 <Diablo-D3> I want better water action
22:37:07 <Diablo-D3> and we have good grfs for it
22:37:15 <Diablo-D3> but no server uses the grfs =/
22:37:31 <samu> you would be able to destroy your canals, it would actually remove the canal tile and the water with it
22:38:15 <Diablo-D3> if I put a canal over a river
22:39:12 <Diablo-D3> is it the same as deleting a river?
22:39:25 <samu> the lock? that 1x3 size structure?
22:40:01 <Diablo-D3> I mean the 1x1 canal tiles
22:40:09 <Diablo-D3> the man-made river tiles
22:40:16 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure what the game calls them
22:40:31 <samu> but a ship won't traverse them unless you build a lock afterwards
22:40:49 <Diablo-D3> you know, canals are useless
22:40:57 <Diablo-D3> I just realized I cant plop a dock anywhere
22:41:17 <samu> for me the current problem is the prohibitive costs
22:41:20 <Diablo-D3> I can connect two lakes/oceans/whatever
22:41:26 <Diablo-D3> but I cant spawn a lake somewhere
22:41:31 <Diablo-D3> I cant fill a dry lakebed
22:42:26 <samu> oh, you mean build a canal on top of a river tile?
22:42:39 <samu> damn sorry I misunderstood
22:43:41 <samu> for my theoryzed idea, I'd prefer to still be able to do that
22:44:17 <samu> destroying it would rever back to river tile
22:44:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah a canal on top of a river tile
22:44:52 <Diablo-D3> do I still pay that $20k cost
22:44:58 <Diablo-D3> the river deletion cost
22:45:09 <Diablo-D3> because if I don't, then I think openttd might be broken
22:45:15 <Diablo-D3> unless deleting a canal costs $20k
22:45:33 <samu> let me check, i dont really know exact costs
22:45:47 <Diablo-D3> I dont toy with canals, I just know river deletion is around $20k per tile
22:46:15 <Diablo-D3> which sucks because competitive servers leave rivers on
22:46:22 <samu> costed me £3750 for 1x1 canal tile on a river tile
22:46:40 <samu> and it's gone forever, river tile included :(
22:47:00 <Diablo-D3> okay so what happens if you bomb a river tile
22:47:02 <Diablo-D3> how much did it cost
22:47:30 <Diablo-D3> thats broken, but in the opposite direction
22:47:41 <samu> destroying river tile = 7500
22:47:45 <Diablo-D3> damnit still cant win
22:47:56 <Diablo-D3> building canal = 3750 too?
22:48:04 <samu> destroying canal on river tile = 3750
22:48:16 <Diablo-D3> 3750 + 3750 = 7500 =/
22:48:34 <Diablo-D3> I was hoping I thought of a way around paying that money
22:49:36 <samu> back to my theorycrafting
22:50:00 <samu> build a canal tile = something much cheaper than 3750, maybe 375?
22:50:01 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I just wish openttd had more of a ship game
22:50:38 <samu> destroying a canal tile = depends on if it's currently dry or with water
22:51:04 <samu> if watered = 3750, if dry = something around 375
22:51:08 <Diablo-D3> samu: my problem is this
22:51:11 <Diablo-D3> I cant build a lake
22:51:14 <Diablo-D3> even if its near a river
22:55:27 <samu> grr get me a screenshot, :P
23:00:49 <samu> Eddi|zuHause: i just noticed something, rivers do not traverse desert tiles, :)
23:01:18 <samu> must look at arctic landscape
23:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you mean?
23:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> tiles around rivers are turned into non-desert during map generation
23:01:48 <samu> create a new game in sub-tropic and you'll see
23:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you got that backwards :p
23:04:02 <samu> hmm arctic is non-caring if snow or not snow
23:04:20 <samu> river just goes anywhere
23:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> rivers are placed before snow/desert is decided
23:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: exaggeration maybe, but not irony.
23:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's my honest opinion that the opengfx release should be with the beta release
23:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not like there are huge changes to be expected in the next 2 or 3 months anyway
23:07:10 <planetmaker> yes... should...yet all feedback I always get is along the lines of "sucks". Not motivating really
23:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know your feedback.
23:08:30 <planetmaker> also, this is the first year that opengfx is *not* released along with the -beta1
23:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i remember loads of times where people came here with "this reports missing sprites, but there is no update"
23:09:44 <planetmaker> they do that all the time during nightlies
23:10:11 <planetmaker> and even do so because they simply didn't find the ingame update option as they only look for newgrfs
23:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well, sure nightly, but i specifically remember something about betas as well
23:11:28 <planetmaker> hm... maybe... hg log -r'tag()' is not entirely conclusive
23:14:18 <planetmaker> 2009/10/11/12 all have tags immediately before Christmas. 2013/2014 don't
23:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so, last year already had this problem and i didn't imagine it.
23:16:20 <planetmaker> it doesn't mean the problem existed... depends when new required sprites were added
23:18:07 <planetmaker> going by changelog it didn't exist in 2013/2014
23:18:15 <planetmaker> thus this *is* the first time it happens
23:18:30 <planetmaker> and those are all whiners. However they are right
23:23:38 <samu> dried river tile <=> railway track
23:23:53 <samu> watered river tile <=> electrified railway track
23:25:36 <samu> oh gosh, I wish I could code something as big as this
23:27:06 <samu> Eddi|zuHause: something just crossed my mind about terraforming and rivers
23:27:58 <samu> they start at some hill or fountain kind of object
23:28:11 <samu> which doesn't exist currently
23:28:55 <samu> this object is permanently fixed
23:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the OpenTTD rivers kinda represent shipable rivers. real rivers continue along in a non-shipable way to their spring (and side streams)
23:29:24 <samu> the river that spawn from it could be "terraformable"
23:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so the point where the river starts is not the actual spring
23:30:38 <samu> so it starts from the ocean
23:32:05 <samu> what you call of real river is those level 0
23:33:39 <samu> I guess that's what you mean
23:34:57 <samu> to terraform rivers or not to, that is the question
23:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game does not really have an opinion on where the river starts and ends, it just is there. it's not flowing in any direction
23:39:16 <samu> what type of sacrifices would you see as aceptable, I want to make up my mind before starting to dwelve into coding (if I could actually manage to do something at all)
23:41:12 <samu> terraforming is still the big question
23:41:58 <samu> if players are forbidden to terraform river tiles, I can come up with a feasable model
23:42:15 <samu> else, I need to think...
23:52:01 <samu> I have to leave now, see ya tomorrow.
continue to next day ⏵
