IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-08
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09:18:42 <V453000> wtf izup andythesouth
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09:20:04 <Principal8> is it possible to set up openttd in "sandbox mode"?
09:20:11 <Principal8> with infinite funds
09:20:16 <Principal8> or everything is free
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09:21:38 <V453000> South Antarctican Replacement Snow?
09:21:52 <andythenorth> caballo de hiero
09:22:12 <andythenorth> many years ago I tried to persuade pikka to make SARS after NARS
09:30:55 * andythenorth considers a QLDR roster
09:35:00 <peter1138> Quite long, didn't read?
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09:50:45 * andythenorth wonders if there’s a way to have hg track file name changes
09:51:12 <andythenorth> yeah that’s what I want to avoid
09:51:39 <andythenorth> probably I should get a UI client
09:51:42 <Alberth> oh, the magic git "lets guess what the user did" is better? :)
09:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> afair, "hg addremove" tries to record things as move when the files are identical
09:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, you can override "mv" with a macro that checks for hg, and uses "hg mv" instead
09:54:08 <Alberth> but you have to type a command to move a file anyway, so hg mv is as good as mv
09:54:31 <andythenorth> I tend to use my file browser
09:54:56 <andythenorth> addremove looks like the closest I’m going to get
09:55:08 <andythenorth> or I give in and install a hg UI client :(
09:55:36 <Alberth> if there is one that does what you want :)
09:56:21 <andythenorth> there will be some for “OS X users who are terrified of the terminal"
09:56:55 <andythenorth> and they’ll hide everything away, and do magic, and it will be impossible to understood what it’s doing
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09:59:47 <Alberth> as long as it doesn't fail, it's ok :)
10:01:51 <andythenorth> maybe I just need to learn mv better
10:02:07 <andythenorth> typing the path twice is a bore
10:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can drag and drop the file from the browser
10:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, /oath/to/{file1,file2}
10:03:30 <andythenorth> that’s what I need I think
10:07:08 <Alberth> cd path/to ; hg mv file1 file2
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10:34:24 <jogi> I just started making edits to the openttd source
10:35:17 <jogi> When I have written a patch from the todo list from the wiki and submitted it to flyspray, is there anything else I should do?
10:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "don't call us, we call you."
10:36:55 <__ln__> 1. wait, 2. wait more, 3. wait a few more months, 4. remind the developers about it, 5. wait more, 6. get kicked from the channel, 7. wait, 8. patch applied.
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10:38:43 <jogi> __ln__: Are you speaking from experience? ;-)
10:39:56 <jogi> thank you alberth for your your comment
10:39:58 <Alberth> jogi: the question is how to change it. One solution is to move the checks + warnings to the order gui. That would definitely work
10:40:46 <Alberth> I can imagine there are ways to give your feedback of the command to a specific player only, but I don't know exactly if that's possible, and how
10:41:15 <jogi> I thought about doing it in the CheckOrders(), function, but that gets called every day for each vehicle, so I feared making edits there because of performance
10:41:46 <Alberth> you don't want a warning every day either :)
10:42:14 * chillcore pokes frosch to commit FS#6156 fixes if he finds a few moments
10:42:22 <Alberth> especially if you share a wrong order with 50 vehicles :)
10:42:33 <Alberth> little early for frosch :)
10:43:53 <Alberth> adding it to the gui is conceptually nicer too, you check and warn before applying the change, instead of afterwards
10:43:56 <chillcore> Alberth: np ... I am reluctantly going to look at compiling a windoze binary for v
10:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had patches sit there quietly for a year. and then they got commited. and then the bugs were found. :p
10:44:43 <chillcore> might take a bit or maybe I will just have to connect my xp machine for a bit ... which is a terrible idea seeing as it runs now
10:45:04 <Alberth> catch it quickly before it leaves the room :)
10:45:35 <Pikka> andythenorth: been writing AI today.Who knows, I might do some newgrf work some time soon at this rate. :)
10:46:31 <jogi> Alberth: If I think about it, maybe I should only take the check for servicing into that function, because the settings can change without making a change to the order
10:47:11 <jogi> for the rest, I will take a look into the order gui.
10:47:47 <jogi> Maybe useless conditions could be marked in red or something like this
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10:48:42 <Alberth> currently "Invalid order" is in red, if a vehicle wants to visit a non-existing station
10:49:07 <chillcore> Alberth: is there somewhere in the code a functional slider I can lurk code of off?
10:49:42 <Alberth> only sliders we have are the scrollbars, afaik
10:49:43 <chillcore> music volume perhaps ?
10:50:20 <chillcore> I don't know how it functions yet ... could be just checking the point being clicked though ...
10:50:43 <Alberth> it was some make-believe indeed, iirc
10:50:55 <Alberth> but if it works..... :)
10:51:45 <chillcore> I'll have a looksie. just found a few more snippets in my code that are in the wrong patch still too
10:52:11 <Alberth> scrollbars have page magic, you may want just a single point in a range instead of an interval
10:54:01 <chillcore> an actual slider would be cool though ... not sure though if the slider itself should contain the value in it. or if the values should be visible outside of it (on a button as is now)
10:54:32 <chillcore> Also had a quick look at your doings ... seems a bit complicated with all that magic gathereing of guis in one
10:54:44 <chillcore> that is what makes worldgen so compliated IMHO
10:55:00 <Alberth> yeah, I was thinking how to untangle that mess iirc
10:55:09 <Alberth> a class for each page or so
10:55:49 <chillcore> huhu seems like the esiest way ... now there is the gui for new game and the one for scenario editor just describes the differences between them?
10:56:10 <chillcore> just a hint ignore scenario editor untill you understand new game
10:56:21 <chillcore> makes it a whole lot easier
10:56:45 <Alberth> no worries, I was not going to mess in the scenario world soon :)
10:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i think new game and scenario editor warrant much different gui setups
10:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: what i always missed in scenario editor was to run the individual map generation steps individually
10:57:51 <Alberth> the entire scenarios are kind of dead until we fix the file format :(
10:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> like generate hills, generate towns, generate industries, ...
10:58:13 <chillcore> there should be 4 guis ... new game, scenario and then for both ... original and 'whatsitcalled' again terraingenerotor
10:58:53 <chillcore> terrain is a seperate step ... but if you have still eg. rivers enabled it takes a bit
10:59:18 <chillcore> not showing them all at once though ... ;)
10:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> generate rivers should also be one of those individual steps
10:59:52 <chillcore> but did not get that far yet
11:00:04 <chillcore> for now smootness is functional as seperate process
11:00:10 <Alberth> I wonder why you want that in the SE, it sounds like manual "new game"
11:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you can make adjustments inbetween
11:00:30 <chillcore> once that is done properly I can move the rest too
11:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: or save, try with some settings, see it not working well, reload.
11:00:55 <Alberth> yeah, undo last generation would be spiffy
11:01:00 <chillcore> albert new game is just play ... scenario is tweak like crazy (or skip steps you never change anyways)
11:01:36 <Alberth> sure, but "tweak like crazy" sort of makes "generate some random setup" sort of useless
11:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: one of the problems is that in scenario editor you cannot actually reproduce the later stages of a "new game"
11:02:08 <chillcore> perhaps yo want rondom terrai but manual placements of indstries and stuffs
11:02:09 <Alberth> ie you may have to fix practically all generated things afterwards
11:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: like, if you placed manual towns, you cannot run "random industries" [with the appropriate density options], only this not-very-well controlled "create many industries"
11:03:07 <Alberth> say you generate towns, but you don't like the positions, so you have to 'move' the towns afterwards
11:03:18 <chillcore> with my patch: you tweak terrain like crazy untill happy, then the next step you generate the rest, and yes terrain gets re-generated in the process but result remains
11:03:48 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: true, you need more fine-grained control on the generation process
11:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but all that is for the player to decide. the scenario editor should support that with options
11:04:35 <chillcore> I see ... generating towns during setup of terrain makes no sense really ... untill you are happy with terrain everything gets destroyed anyways
11:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and the options should not only consist of "create random set without parameters to tweak, or place everything individually"
11:04:55 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: no argument from me :)
11:05:05 <chillcore> ^^^ in scneario editor that is
11:05:35 <chillcore> CTRL new game is everything random ... not planning to change that in any way
11:05:47 <jogi> Thank you for your time, I'm off to lunch
11:06:37 <Alberth> in newgame, you still have options, and that's good
11:06:41 <chillcore> however ... I do plan to add a button to generate random settings ...
11:06:48 <chillcore> true and you should have
11:06:53 <Alberth> the main problem in worldgen is weird order of steps
11:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> things like town name set should be in world generation settings
11:07:43 <Alberth> and long turn-around time to generate a nice looking map
11:08:23 <chillcore> should it Eddi? that is changing newgrf settings ingame practically and opens the can of worms again
11:08:50 <Alberth> newgrf settings should be in the steps too, imho
11:09:11 <Alberth> ie before you generate towns/industries/etc :)
11:09:22 <chillcore> ok ... then I will have to use a lot of _game_mode magics
11:09:34 <chillcore> that or scenario editor should be loosened up
11:10:02 <chillcore> hmm ... something to ponder about
11:10:21 <chillcore> I know Rubi does not like that much
11:10:34 <chillcore> I had some of that magic in tgp.cpp
11:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, a new scenario editor could be designed towards the new scenario [heightmap] format
11:11:42 <Alberth> calculation code should not be mixed with control flow code if possible
11:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: i don't see any harm in changing the town name generator when to towns exist.
11:12:39 <chillcore> there is plety of room for improvments: alberth
11:12:56 <Alberth> problem is that it's a newgrf Eddi|zuHause, so you can have all the side effects of newgrf changes
11:13:01 <chillcore> Eddi: and what do you when you have industries named after them alreaydy?
11:13:15 <Alberth> can't have industries without town :p
11:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: cannot have industries without town
11:13:22 <chillcore> or when you edit an existing savegame?
11:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then changing town name is forbidden
11:13:52 <chillcore> how does the game know that this is not a new scenario you are creating?
11:13:54 <Alberth> chillcore: that's what the new format fixes
11:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: adding a town name newgrf and selecting the town name generator are two different steps
11:15:07 <chillcore> hmm ... lots of things happening ... you could be right eddi not going to argue untill I see things happening ;)
11:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> also, town name newgrfs should work separate from all other newgrfs
11:15:43 <Alberth> so you don't edit a save game, you edit the generation specification
11:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> with the new format you might lose some precision, like which house goes where exactly
11:17:05 <Alberth> it's more detailed specification, which is left out for now, but not impossible to add again
11:17:13 <Alberth> and there are cases where people want that
11:17:56 <Alberth> in particular, you may want to use some external script to generate such things instead of placing each house in the editor
11:18:24 <chillcore> yes ... scripts too ...
11:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "script" in this context would be a gimp-fu or something
11:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but we're digressing, i think :)
11:20:28 <Alberth> we are? it's still all OpenTTD :p
11:20:30 <andythenorth> huh, I turn away for 5 minutes, and people are talking about stuff :o
11:21:07 <Alberth> no vehicle groups yet :p
11:21:19 <chillcore> hehe ye it is kinda three topics in one eddi
11:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: weirdm we've beent talking for like 20 minutes
11:21:56 <chillcore> gotta love spaghettios
11:23:00 <chillcore> but in all fairness the code has come a long way during the last couple of years
11:23:35 <chillcore> lees spaghetti ... still too much magic nrs though ... getting there
11:24:39 <chillcore> I'll have a quick look at that music volume slider code ... brb
11:26:51 <chillcore> int x = pt.x - this->GetWidget<NWidgetBase>(widget)->pos_x;
11:26:58 <chillcore> poitnreference indeed
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11:27:54 <chillcore> would introducing a real slider be hard much?
11:28:39 <Alberth> it's like a horizontal scrollbar mostly, without the page magic
11:29:02 <chillcore> why did I not think of that hehe.
11:29:27 <Alberth> just a class with some widget functions, and a drawing routine
11:29:47 <Alberth> maybe you wanted vertical sliders :p
11:30:16 <Alberth> shouldn't be very complicated
11:30:21 <chillcore> Hmm that would make for an intersting gui
11:30:38 <Alberth> callback to the window with the new value may be tricky
11:30:40 <chillcore> labels vertically too for saving screen estate
11:31:29 <Alberth> people turning their monitor to read the labels :p
11:31:47 <Alberth> width is much less of a problem than height at current screens
11:32:21 <chillcore> remind me of this game I played ... "liquidsketch"
11:32:56 <chillcore> I believe it was by Purno's brother ... pretty sweet anyways... turn ipad and water flows
11:33:12 <chillcore> except here we make trains glide down rails
11:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> my grandmother had a pen with the wuppertal schwebebahn that slided when you tilted the pen
11:34:14 <chillcore> hehe I had the same but with superman in it
11:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and that was even before wuppertal was in the world that you could reach :p
11:34:51 <chillcore> anyhoo now we disgress :P
11:35:28 <chillcore> maybe I will tackle them sliders later when a true live preview is available?
11:36:05 <chillcore> which is not something I would now how to start with at this point in time ... welp
11:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think peter's true colour company colour patch had horizontal sliders for the rgb values
11:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if you mean that
11:37:13 <chillcore> got a link to that Eddi? <- I collect links at the moment.
11:37:20 <chillcore> yes pretty much that
11:41:41 <chillcore> before I forget ... Andy: about a gui for hg ... I did not know I had one (workbench) installed by default untill I entered "thg" in terminal ;)
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12:04:48 <chillcore> Just thinking out loud and totally unrelated. Would it be a good idea to skip savegameversions 200 to 250? there is a bunch of patches out there (including some of mine) that have their values set to 200 to avoid having to adjust it while bumping ... so there will be a ton of savegames out there that will suddenly become valid.
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12:06:31 <chillcore> in a few 'time units' we will have to go from byte to uint anyways
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12:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: savegame version is not the only thing that makes a game "valid"
12:16:44 <chillcore> true but OpenTTD does not know that untill it crashes?
12:17:01 <chillcore> might just refuse to load ... never really tested
12:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the most common thing of changing settings will lead to "invalid chunk" errors
12:18:39 <chillcore> hmm ok ... I guess untill FS gets swamped with bugreports the subject is moot
12:34:04 * chillcore will be back laters ... switching to windoze HDD, setting up environment to produce test binaries ... needs feedback on usability badly in order to proceed.
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13:55:33 <chillcore> V453000: I am sorry but I will not be compiling a binarie for windoze. my brain advises against it. I duno what happened to sourceforge the last couple of years but the place is riddled with crapware
13:56:18 <chillcore> read: way too many buttons that make you download stuffs without knowin what you get. aka. click link think it is the download button and got something else
13:56:47 <chillcore> not that I have any of that stuffs downloaded as I moused over and looked ata the links
13:56:47 <andythenorth> it scamware mostly, no?
13:56:59 <chillcore> yeah make pc faster kinda shit
13:57:20 <andythenorth> “Why so slow is Mac?"
13:57:31 <andythenorth> “Special software to remove viruses and malware"
13:57:51 <chillcore> also the compiling page on wiki is i a pretty bad shape
13:59:20 <chillcore> mentions zlib 1.2.7 at top but is dead link then lower (in instructions) it gives the instructions for 1.2.8 ...
13:59:40 <chillcore> I needed to do some digging in a completely other sectio to get it
13:59:49 <chillcore> ^^^ on sourceforge that is
14:00:09 <Alberth> compiling is a dying art
14:00:17 <chillcore> sorry v ... maybe I could go the openttdcoop way but I feel it is a bit too soon
14:00:28 <chillcore> yeah long live linux
14:01:09 <Alberth> ask for a build at the forum?
14:01:51 <chillcore> I did alberth ... seems like everyone is busy doing other stuffs
14:02:36 <chillcore> that or I buried the request to deep in my post
14:06:31 <chillcore> hope you understand, I would apreciate someone messing about very much though for the defaults ... so it double stings a bit
14:09:14 <chillcore> the compiling page I mentioned being out of shape is the mingw/msys one
14:09:24 <V453000> I got enough of my things to do :P no worries
14:09:49 <V453000> want to get done some RAWR bridges this week
14:12:33 <chillcore> maybe it is time to provide our own deps in a sane way? it'sall GPL v2 after all?
14:12:46 <chillcore> for windoze that is
14:13:41 <Alberth> you only need deps for development, for building a release, you have to build everything anyway
14:14:09 <Alberth> unless you have other ideas about 'deps' than source file dependencies
14:14:18 <roidal> Alberth: are you one of the openttd-dev's?
14:14:19 <chillcore> for windoze that is meant ... my prob right now is that I do not trust what I downloaded just now
14:14:48 <Alberth> roidal: yeah, I do commit stuff every now and then
14:15:45 <roidal> so, you know this stuff very well?! :D
14:15:57 <chillcore> that last (of mine) sentence no sense make
14:16:09 <Alberth> roidal: not likely :p
14:16:47 <roidal> iam still wondering about town-growth
14:16:49 <Alberth> for some reason "have commit rights" seems to imply "knows everything" :)
14:16:54 <chillcore> that is what I meant alberth them source zips may or may not have surprises... etc
14:17:23 <roidal> Alberth: wouldn't say "knows everything" but "knows much more than me"
14:17:42 <Alberth> about town growth? I doubt that :)
14:17:56 <Alberth> it's not a topic I am interested in :)
14:18:16 <Alberth> players are often much more knowledgeable in such details
14:19:15 <roidal> iam generally interested in gamce mechanics
14:19:19 <Alberth> but in general, the Game Mechanics wiki page explains how it works at code level
14:19:56 <Alberth> and then there is the actual source code itself as final and definitive source of knowledge :)
14:20:16 <Alberth> (some every revision X :p )
14:20:37 <Alberth> but sure, ask away, maybe someone in the channel knows the answer
14:21:25 <roidal> yes, was reading the wiki, and it writes about "stations within town influence",
14:22:01 <roidal> now i try to figure out how far town influence goes
14:23:19 <roidal> is it written in C oder C++
14:23:23 <chillcore> good question ... need digging in the source for that I am afraid
14:23:47 <chillcore> both roidal but movement is towards c++ completely
14:24:38 <chillcore> also since c is valid c++ ... it is c++ ;)
14:26:27 <Alberth> random guess is, the station tile with the label is the location of the station. If that tile has an authority (query the tile with the "?" button), the station is part of town influence
14:26:36 <Alberth> but again, this is a random guess
14:27:28 <Alberth> /me fails to see the fascination with town growth in a tycoon game
14:29:09 <Alberth> it's not anywhere near modern c++ such as c++11
14:29:14 <chillcore> it just gives an extra goal alberth ... make town grow by transporting stuffs to it
14:29:15 <michi_cc> chillcore: What's wrong with the openttd-useful.zip we provide? Except for the special case of cross-compiling to windows, using MSVC is mostly a lot easier.
14:29:34 <chillcore> I see town as industry made of houses?
14:30:08 <chillcore> ooh did not think of that one ... thanks michi_cc
14:30:11 <roidal> Alberth: its only because iam wondering that i have a city with no growth even if i deliver goods
14:30:22 <Alberth> true, that's how Busy Bee uses towns, but those town goal scripts concentrate on towns only, I think
14:30:51 <roidal> and the game mechanics wiki says that in this case there should be growth :)
14:31:12 <efess> roidal - I think you need to move passengers to stimulate growth
14:31:23 <roidal> chillcore | it just gives an extra goal alberth ... make town grow by transporting stuffs to it <- and thats another point
14:31:32 <roidal> like to choose cities and make them very big :D
14:32:02 <chillcore> I do prefer just the terminal and modyfying files manually. Also the exe is not produced in bin? so extra steps are needed to provide binaries opening door to mistakes. michi_cc
14:32:15 <chillcore> last time I used it anyays
14:32:15 <roidal> efess: i have another city only delivering goods, but this one is growing...so...
14:34:18 <Alberth> if it is true, I can even see that it should be considered to be a bug
14:34:37 <Alberth> although it's also 'realistic' :p
14:35:19 <Rubidium> Alberth: then we should really start using mercurial because then everyone knows everything and we don't need to answer such questions anymore ;)
14:35:55 <Alberth> just stop advertising svn as the master repository :)
14:36:00 <chillcore> roidal there is more then just delivering goods that influences towns growth or not grow
14:36:29 <chillcore> or shrinkage for that matter
14:36:56 <chillcore> fraquency of vehicles visiting stations is one of them
14:37:53 <Alberth> good point, growth does some random walk, which may fail
14:38:46 <Alberth> playing sub-tropical roidal? then you need to work for getting growth :)
14:40:41 <roidal> and luky for me the game shows the town-groth-rate in the city-overview window
14:41:29 <roidal> and i see in cities where the station is very near to the center that the growth-rate increase very short after unloading some cargo
14:42:46 <roidal> and at one city, where there was too less place for the station beside the center, there i deliver cargo without affecting the growth-rate, even if the station is still within the influence area
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14:46:19 <roidal> but i see you guys are bored from my questions :D
14:47:12 <chillcore> UpdateTownRadius() in town_cmd.cpp
14:47:33 <chillcore> not at all roidal see I consider myself to kow a bit due to making my patchpack
14:47:50 <chillcore> still had to search and that may not be the only function
14:48:01 <chillcore> lol ... it is old ... r22555
14:48:23 <chillcore> try grasping vanilla first maybe?
14:48:26 <roidal> but, know i was able to build a station a little bit more near of the center
14:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a chill's patchpack revision
14:48:35 <roidal> and now it affects the growth :)
14:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if you've heard of that one :p
14:49:32 <chillcore> cool though have a revision dedicated to me ...
14:49:55 <chillcore> and not so much cause I got stuck there ... which may be for the better in the long run :P
14:50:35 <chillcore> it was fun while it lasted but toomuch bandage in the end
14:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just make a new one :p
14:51:36 <chillcore> I could ... but I figured it benefits openttd moe me doing single patches
14:51:58 <chillcore> also peeps stopped trying single pacthes and I was holding peeps back from making their own
14:52:03 <chillcore> which is sad in itself
14:52:30 <chillcore> maybe I will someday ...
14:52:49 <chillcore> tbh it was more work then a normal day job ... my choice offcourse
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14:53:35 <chillcore> I even dreamt code at some point ... waking up and thinking I need to write this down so I remember this tomorrow
14:53:41 <Alberth> and you learned a lot :)
14:53:58 <chillcore> I can not describe how much Alberth
14:54:23 <chillcore> thanks again to all of you ;)
14:56:34 <Alberth> and I do write things down in the middle of the night, to prevent it from circling in my head for hours :)
15:01:04 <roidal> is there a key for disabling/enabling visibilities of trees?
15:01:51 <chillcore> xtrl-X and then select trees? could be wrong
15:02:47 <chillcore> "could be wrong" <- that is the reason peeps do not reply sometimes when they do not know for sure often
15:03:25 <roidal> there must be a dedicated for trees only
15:03:34 <chillcore> then open the menu and select trees only
15:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> with ctrl+x you can decide which of the entries should be chanced with 'x'
15:03:46 <chillcore> x will toggle afterwards
15:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ctrl+click the buttons to lock them
15:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can probably assign hotkeys to the button in the transparency gui via hotkeys.cfg
15:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly even a global hotkey
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15:19:03 <chillcore> hmm Drury is such a strange guy sometimes ... I have no clue how to continue the discussion no more (randomness thread)
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16:09:08 <andythenorth> is the game skippy under linux?
16:09:11 * andythenorth considers switching
16:09:24 <andythenorth> ‘stutter’ would be more accurate than ‘skip'
16:09:59 <andythenorth> principally when opening windows, trying to provide orders, drag vehicles in groups etc
16:17:02 <chillcore> it does not for me ... then again it has been a while I loaded any significantly sized savegame.
16:17:41 <chillcore> maybe unrelated ... some games run better when the CPU is set to slow mode instead of dynamic speeds in bios.
16:18:05 <andythenorth> this savegame is tiny
16:18:59 <chillcore> try linux on USB first?
16:19:22 <chillcore> will load slower and such but performance should remain while not doing disk operations
16:19:45 <chillcore> disk being USB here
16:20:16 <andythenorth> it’s annoyingly hard to recreate
16:20:17 <chillcore> while doing that best is to remove your HDD to prevent misshaps
16:21:09 <chillcore> if you cold pinpoint it to some guis and not all?
16:21:36 <chillcore> got many background apps?
16:23:20 <chillcore> no OSX expert by any means but I increased speed on iOS by jailbreaking and deleting stuffs
16:25:17 <chillcore> Also by trying on USB I mean not a live version but really installing ;)
16:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so have you tried profiling and waiting for it to happen?
16:26:20 <andythenorth> profiling knowledge = none
16:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> make a build with symbols (debug level 1 or so), and run "make run_prof" (or run-prof, i never remember)
16:27:44 <andythenorth> run-prof seems to do something
16:27:51 <andythenorth> run_prof complains about lack of .o file
16:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then let the program run for however long you deem appropriate. and when you exit, it shows you a list of functions, sorted by how much time was spent in each
16:28:37 <andythenorth> k, looks like I need to increase debug level
16:28:41 <andythenorth> on exit, nothing shown
16:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it may be stored in a file
16:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> was configure ever refitted with a "no strip" option?
16:33:33 <chillcore> yes ... I remember using no strip on occasions to get a nice huge debug buid, 37MB or something
16:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the build should otherwise behave exactly like a release build
16:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no magic flipping of buttons and stuff
16:35:31 <chillcore> look at me all being expert-like :P
16:36:17 <chillcore> as usual shoot when I put foot in mouth
16:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "expert" is a label used by news broadcasters to equip people with credibility
16:37:07 <chillcore> so true ... and sad at the same time
16:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> some random journalist will become "terror expert"
16:38:05 <chillcore> from zero to here in less then 10 mins ... use wikipedia and take for truth :P
16:39:35 <chillcore> there is also tic() and toc() still?
16:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: yes, but that assumes some guesswork as to where the slowdown will be happening in the first place
16:40:35 <chillcore> not sure if that is any good in andy's case ...you were faster
16:49:02 <chillcore> hmm someone can explain me why we need to restrict max mapheight to some value in the worldgen gui? kinda does not make sense as the heights are already restricted based on mapsize and terrain type in tgp.cpp while generating maps.
16:49:30 <chillcore> is it really that bad to let peeps raise untill 255 is reached?
16:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> people might want to have lower limits?
16:49:48 <frosch123> there is tons of stuff that depends on max height level
16:49:50 <Alberth> people may want to have a flat-ish map at 4096x4096
16:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, snowline is relative to that value
16:50:05 <frosch123> like desert, rainforest, industry placement, ...
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16:51:13 <chillcore> it seems a bit confusing that is all
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17:45:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27139 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-02-08 17:45:49 UTC)
17:45:58 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:59 <DorpsGek> korean - 12 changes by Gimel3830
18:06:39 <chillcore> hmm ... warning about destruction of current scenario when proceeding ... mention it in tooltip before clicking or red popup after clicking the button?
18:07:36 <chillcore> ^^^ opening tgen gui from terraform gui
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18:09:09 <chillcore> option three not allow that and remove that button, which may lead to some frustration about clickfest if tgen is closed by accident
18:11:01 <Alberth> tgen doesn't belong in terraform, I think
18:14:39 <chillcore> hmm I meant land generation sorry. that little gui where "create new scenario is" and "delete landscape and companies"
18:15:17 <chillcore> anyhoo I agree that terraforming and opening tgen should not be in the same gui
18:15:48 <chillcore> maybe that gui needs some splitting too? trunk
18:16:22 <Alberth> I don't know that gui, I would have to look it up
18:16:25 <chillcore> removing tgen button ...
18:16:50 <Alberth> but likely, yeah, people tend to just add random stuff to random existing infra structure:)
18:17:33 <chillcore> creating new guis is hard ... not really but 'grrr' sometimes ;)
18:17:50 <chillcore> hat off to all you gui gurus out there ;)
18:18:09 <Alberth> assuming you add it in some "world destroy" window, I don't think it needs a warning
18:18:35 <Alberth> really, what is so hard?
18:18:58 <chillcore> collecting all the needed chunks
18:19:28 <Alberth> ah yeah, a bit of shopping in the other windows :)
18:19:33 <chillcore> but as I progress slowly it is managable ... would be different if I had to come up with a gui in one go
18:20:05 <chillcore> also behavior ... keeping in mind that other guis might have to be updated etc
18:20:06 <Alberth> I start on paper first, to get some design, usually
18:20:57 <chillcore> ususally yes hehe ... I have stuffs in my head and keep chunks of code that need to be adjusted in a file
18:21:38 <chillcore> now I need to find the code that draws text white on currently active preset
18:21:56 <chillcore> background is auto black but text is not white ...
18:22:02 <chillcore> ^^^ that kind of grrr
18:22:26 <chillcore> I love it though cause O am about to learn something new :P
18:24:46 <chillcore> Also it is easy to get distracted ... I am tempted to split that land generation gui in trunk first ...
18:25:25 <chillcore> which would mean creating another gui ... think I am going to wait a bit with that hehe
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18:29:55 <chillcore> hmm I have a better idea ... instead of button that opens tgen gui just change create new scenario button to behave as if comming from main menu ... that way the behavior remains consistent too
18:32:03 <Alberth> in the language file STR_FOO :{WHITE}some text
18:33:52 <chillcore> hmm for dropdowns? I never noticed to having two strings for the same option
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18:34:18 <chillcore> checking lang files.
18:37:53 <Alberth> you may be able to add colours to the dropdown generation call?
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18:41:20 <chillcore> I do not see how it is handled at first sight ... I looked for terrain type "very flat" there is only one string of that in lang
18:41:39 <chillcore> but it has no colour designation so that may be the error I made
18:41:56 <chillcore> testing, thx alberth
18:45:15 <Alberth> not hard-coding a colour helps if you want it to change :)
18:48:33 * andythenorth wonders how python will handle evolução
18:48:37 <andythenorth> as a module name :P
18:50:51 <Alberth> I guess it needs an encoding to find the filename?
18:51:58 <andythenorth> even using it as a string is failing
18:52:06 <andythenorth> thought that would work with u’evolução’
18:52:14 <andythenorth> except not with magic quotes :P
18:52:17 <andythenorth> stupid irc client
18:52:30 * chillcore makes a little woohoohoo dance
18:52:40 <Alberth> of course not, u' means unicode, ie no encoding at all
18:53:09 * andythenorth always has a sad day with unicode
18:54:07 <Alberth> the mistake that everybody makes is to think 'unicode' is an encoding
18:54:19 <andythenorth> do I need to encode it and set utf-8?
18:54:22 * andythenorth is pure guessing
18:54:25 <chillcore> hehe the highs and lows all in one place. next victory is for you andy ;)
18:54:56 <Alberth> unicode text is a sequence of code points
18:55:17 <Alberth> where a code point is a number, as defined in the unicode standard
18:55:31 <Alberth> ie from 0 to 2**24 or so
18:55:59 <Alberth> obviously, you cannot send that on a wire or store on a disk
18:56:09 <Alberth> that's where encodings come in
18:56:45 <Alberth> there are a lot of encodings, where utf-8 is a common one in the wesrern world
18:57:02 <andythenorth> so I can’t just do this?
18:57:03 <andythenorth> title = u'Evolução [Diesel]'.encode('utf-8'),
18:57:10 <andythenorth> I know I can’t, because it doesn’t work :P
18:57:18 <Alberth> basically, it takes a code point, and converts it to a sequence of bytes
18:59:21 <Alberth> windows code pages are a different form of encoding, for example
19:00:21 <Alberth> decoding is the reverse process, it takes encoded bytes, and converts back to code points. In general you need to know the encoding to do that
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19:03:06 <andythenorth> SyntaxError: Non-ASCII character '\xcc' in file /Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/Iron_Horse/iron-horse/src/vehicles/evolucao.py on line 6, but no encoding declared; see http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0263.html for details
19:03:24 <andythenorth> file is encoded utf-8, and the line is what I pasted above
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19:05:07 <Alberth> Add line # coding=utf-8 at the top
19:05:51 <Alberth> # -*- coding: utf-8 -*- <-- or that one, if you like -*- thingies
19:06:41 <Alberth> the problem is that your source file is not unicode, its encoded as utf-8, but python doesn't know that, and cannot decode without you telling that
19:07:21 <Alberth> it assumes ascii as encoding, and then breaks on a non-ascii character at line 6
19:08:03 <andythenorth> that makes sense
19:08:11 <andythenorth> never dealt with unicode in the src before
19:08:19 <andythenorth> usually just input from web forms or lang files
19:08:49 <Alberth> you never have string literals in your source?
19:09:32 <Alberth> all files have an encoding, or you cannot store them :)
19:12:52 <andythenorth> the only non-ASCII strings come in via i18n
19:16:46 <Alberth> ascii is a very safe encoding to use :)
19:17:23 <andythenorth> ok, now I just need to call decode everywhere in my code :P
19:17:44 <andythenorth> I guess it’s worth it, I need to learn how unicode handling works properly
19:17:57 <Alberth> python3 is much more strict in unicode handling
19:18:10 <andythenorth> this set will probably end up in python 3
19:18:16 <Alberth> it's the main reason why I picked python3 for eints
19:21:43 <andythenorth> I’m a bit uncomfortable that I’ve solved the remaining failures with vehicle.title.decode(‘utf-8’)
19:22:01 <andythenorth> seems like there might be a better way than decoding every time I want to ‘print' the string
19:22:43 <Alberth> normally, you decode to unicode as soon as you get the string, and encode back when printing
19:22:56 <Alberth> and all manipulation is done in unicode
19:23:10 <andythenorth> decoding in the template seems non-future proof for cases that aren’t utf-8
19:23:18 <andythenorth> but I don’t know if that’s a valid concern
19:23:42 <Alberth> eg utf-8 encoded text has a different number of bytes for different code points
19:23:53 <Alberth> so string manipulations are a pain
19:26:07 <Alberth> it's correct in the sense that you decode and then perform string manipulations on it
19:26:31 <Alberth> but the output is unicode now
19:27:03 <Alberth> and you have to take care not to mix encoded with non-encoded strings
19:27:56 <Alberth> you can do that unpunished with ascii text, but it breaks badly with non-ascii
19:28:23 <andythenorth> so L6, should I call u’’ or just ‘’
19:28:24 <Alberth> by decidong all as soon as possible, you eliminate that source of errors
19:28:43 <andythenorth> oh this irc client is stupid, it even smart-quotes ‘ when put in via the special-characters palette
19:29:20 <Alberth> don't know what python does when adding u'x' + 'y'
19:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a lot of experience with python3, but i solved most of my troubles by using u'' everywhere
19:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and opening files in utf-8 mode
19:30:14 <andythenorth> I got a bit angry last year when I found someone had added u’’ to all of our dict keys
19:30:15 <Alberth> python3 is really much better for unicode, as it prevents accidents
19:31:02 <Alberth> and you don't need to type u'' everywhere :)
19:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> codecs.open('file','rw','utf8')
19:31:40 <Alberth> python3 open('file', 'rw', encoding='utf-8')
19:31:57 <andythenorth> dict keys that are private internally to the app seemed an overly-literal interpretation of “this app uses i18n everywhere"
19:32:30 <andythenorth> also Iron Horse should be converted to python 3 :P
19:32:33 <Alberth> it does make life easier if you use the same kind of text everywhere
19:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you stumble over encoding troubles much easier if you speak a non-english language :p
19:33:22 <Alberth> nederlands helpt niet echt hoor (dutch doesn't really help )
19:33:34 * andythenorth lives in ignorant arrogance
19:33:41 <andythenorth> being as ASCII is all stacked in my favour
19:36:04 <andythenorth> this Iron Horse partial compile is astoundingly useful
19:36:37 <andythenorth> I can a new vehicle and see it in game in ~5s
19:37:38 <Alberth> I bet that excludes drawing the pixels :)
19:37:50 <chillcore> Hmm Alberth is geen duitser? Geen idee waarom ik dat dacht ... :P
19:39:07 <chillcore> for the english ... I thought Alberth was german.
19:39:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: the pixels arrive from Dan :)
19:39:25 <andythenorth> my favourite way
19:39:32 <andythenorth> Alberth is very not German :)
19:39:49 <Alberth> in batch, nicely organized in rows
19:43:05 <andythenorth> rosters bother me
19:43:13 <andythenorth> it would be nice to have a better way of turning them on or off
19:47:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, hg addremove is 100% better
19:47:21 <andythenorth> 100% is a stupid measurement, but eh
19:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: i always used to think Alberth was english, because of the "th"
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19:55:56 <chillcore> eddi: I thought so for the same reason I guess ... dutch Alberts usually do not have the h
19:58:31 <chillcore> nether do belgian alberts <- just to be safe hehe
19:59:03 <andythenorth> neither do English Alberts
19:59:54 <Alberth> maybe it's not part of my first name :p
20:00:17 <chillcore> btw andy you had thg by default? just curious
20:02:02 <andythenorth> might be in ports somewhere
20:02:23 <andythenorth> addremove solves my problem
20:02:35 <chillcore> ok then I know not to suggest it to other OSX users in the future
20:02:36 <andythenorth> hg will guess at filename changes using that command, similar to git
20:03:19 <andythenorth> according to [Lego fan] forums, Lego is dying
20:03:20 <Alberth> thg is pretty useful to suggest, I use it for browsing and searching a lot
20:03:22 <andythenorth> everything is dying
20:03:41 <chillcore> *me has no chillcore in his first name neither :P
20:05:20 <chillcore> you should see my typing after playing minecraft ... the amount of leading 't's are rediculous for the first hour
20:18:32 <chillcore> GenenerateLandscapeWindowMode() ... the extra 'en' shoud be fixed in trunk yes? so I better leave that untouched?
20:19:06 <chillcore> ^^^ saw that one in your patch Alberth ... I have missed that one for years
20:20:57 <chillcore> line 300-ish ingenworld gui
20:21:33 <Alberth> feel free to make a patch
20:23:23 <chillcore> need to take my mind of this for a bit anyways before going crazy :P
20:23:33 <chillcore> ^^^ wanting to do too much at once
20:25:15 <Alberth> decide on an order to change things :)
20:26:25 <chillcore> I did ... thing is deciding what should be one patch and what should be multiple sometimes moving code to a different one
20:29:40 <Alberth> ha, yes, I have that too
20:31:33 <chillcore> for that svn is better ... one blob
20:33:33 <chillcore> another something ... I have compiler warnings in three files due to old compiler ... so i did not report them. should I wait until linux mint fixes that or should that be fixed in trunk too?
20:33:56 <chillcore> as far as my pc is concerned it thinks it is up to date ...
20:34:10 <chillcore> thinking of switching to pure debian sometime soon-ish
20:43:17 <chillcore> patch done it is just 6 lines but did make clean to be sure ... where do I put it? PM, forum, flyspray?
20:43:43 <Alberth> no idea about warnings, if they are legit, they should be fixed, else the compiler is broken :p
20:44:46 <chillcore> ok. warnings go like this:
20:44:50 <chillcore> [SRC] Compiling crashlog.cpp
20:44:50 <chillcore> In file included from /home/chillcore/chiottd/clean_openttd_hg/src/crashlog.cpp:193:0:
20:44:50 <chillcore> /usr/include/libpng12/png.h:2659:31: warning: invalid suffix on literal; C++11 requires a space between literal and identifier [-Wliteral-suffix]
20:44:50 <chillcore> fprintf(PNG_DEBUG_FILE,"%s"m PNG_STRING_NEWLINE,(num_tabs==1 ? "\t" : \
20:44:52 <chillcore> /usr/include/libpng12/png.h:2667:31: warning: invalid suffix on literal; C++11 requires a space between literal and identifier [-Wliteral-suffix]
20:44:55 <chillcore> fprintf(PNG_DEBUG_FILE,"%s"m PNG_STRING_NEWLINE,(num_tabs==1 ? "\t" : \
20:44:59 <chillcore> /usr/include/libpng12/png.h:2675:31: warning: invalid suffix on literal; C++11 requires a space between literal and identifier [-Wliteral-suffix]
20:45:02 <chillcore> fprintf(PNG_DEBUG_FILE,"%s"m PNG_STRING_NEWLINE,(num_tabs==1 ? "\t" : \
20:45:04 <Alberth> yeah, paste works better
20:45:25 <Alberth> oh, I have seen this before
20:45:52 <Alberth> it throws stuff about /usr/include/libpng12/png.h ie libpng source code, not openttd
20:46:26 <chillcore> yes you said compiler warning and you told him to fix it locally? which results in modified anarie and no MP
20:47:00 <chillcore> or someone did somewhere ...
20:47:02 <Alberth> the above are just warning
20:47:37 <Alberth> and it's in 3rd party source code, nothing we check or can do anything about
20:47:47 <chillcore> yes but If I add spaces to a normal checkout then it becomes modified ... is what I meant
20:47:56 <chillcore> ok no touchy touchy then
20:48:14 <Alberth> no, because we don't check png.h
20:48:33 <glx> it's on your system not in ottd source
20:48:34 <Alberth> it's not in the openttd source tree that you checked out
20:50:01 <Alberth> we link against libpng for screenshots. For that we need to include the png.h header file, but we blindly assume it's correct whatever you do with it.
20:50:25 <Alberth> your package manager may not like modified files though
20:51:59 <Alberth> if you want to report it anywhere, you should do that at the libpng guys, but no doubt they already know
20:52:19 <Alberth> you can add the spaces to the file if you like
20:52:28 <Alberth> or you can just ignore the warnings
20:53:44 <chillcore> welp ... access to this resource denied ... no pasting unless I unlock browser ...
20:54:29 <chillcore> I could paste it here :P
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21:01:01 <chillcore> needed to allow cookies alberth
21:04:09 <chillcore> offcouse I made a misstake in commit message ... miises "Window"
21:05:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27140 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2015-02-08 21:05:48 UTC)
21:05:56 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Fix typo in GenenerateLandscapeWindowMode (chillcore)
21:06:31 <chillcore> that was fast ... thx
21:07:46 <Alberth> either you do them sneakily with other changes, or you just throw them in
21:07:57 <Alberth> no point in collecting them first or so :)
21:08:22 <chillcore> there is more where that came from :P
21:08:59 <Alberth> there is an pretty much infinite supply of them :)
21:09:14 <Wolf01> one more video and then I'll go to sleep
21:09:46 <chillcore> 1 more ... hehe ... have you seen sixty symbols yet? :P
21:11:02 <chillcore> hehe you may want to wait or you'll not sleep and ten you'll have to kill me three times
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21:31:20 <chillcore> ^^^ some more coding style in genworld_gui.cpp Alberth ;)
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21:31:53 <chillcore> all dots except two slight ajdustments in comments
21:58:36 <Wolf01> ooook, I really think that I watched more than one video...
21:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what usually happens :p
21:59:34 <Wolf01> so.. good night, before I'll watch ten more :P
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23:44:14 <Diablo-D3> Does anyone know when the bug with mouse not being locked in a fullscreen window is going to be fixed?
23:44:23 <Diablo-D3> its making it unusable on multiple desktop setups on windows
23:47:46 <planetmaker> is there such bug?
23:47:57 <planetmaker> did you report it?
23:49:17 <planetmaker> so what's the link to the bug report?
23:49:35 <Diablo-D3> but I think it is reported
23:49:38 <Diablo-D3> its a single missing line
23:50:43 <planetmaker> so it has been reported and a patch suggested in our bug tracker?
23:50:56 <planetmaker> if not: probably indefinitely
23:51:27 <planetmaker> for simple grounds of "do not know about" --> "do nothing about". I don't use windows, thus couldn't test it
23:51:45 <planetmaker> but others who do and read issue tracker might, and will, if it's reported and a patch suggested
23:54:48 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: just add SDL_WM_GrabInput(SDL_GRAB_ON);
23:55:01 <Diablo-D3> its a common mistake that a lot of devs forget
23:55:25 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, don't tell me now. Please file a bug report. It's 1am Sunday night and I don't have windows
23:57:59 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: openttd DOES use sdl on windows, right?
23:58:39 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: dont worry, you're in with a lot of games that never get this right
23:58:48 <Diablo-D3> half the games in my steam library do not work properly on windows.
23:59:22 <planetmaker> GDI on windoze, SDL on *nix, cocoa on OSX
23:59:33 <planetmaker> at least by default
continue to next day ⏵
