IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-03
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00:29:12 <dreck> oh yeah now I remember why I asked about refit..
00:30:20 <dreck> I know there could be some possible issues with gameplay visual (especially if you bought a wagon thinking it was good for one speed but found out that with the cargo you wanted it actually runs slower) but I take it that wagon refit could affect its maximum speed if wanting to tho right?
00:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you probably shouldn't. for sanity's sake
00:35:37 <dreck> yeah beside openttd doesn't have physics built in so noone would notice the superheavy cargo burning off the red hot axle bearings ;)
00:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really got the UKRS way of making each wagon a different speed
00:36:32 <dreck> also doing only 2kph uphill is another thing thats just a in-game thing for you
00:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> in my world, all wagons of the same generation have the same speed
00:36:52 <dreck> eddi uk always had odd things so no comment
00:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my generations are like 35/60/90/120
00:39:51 <dreck> the one small sane thing I've liked for myself gameplay-wise is brake systems tho..mainly re running a slow train with manual brakes or if you want to get ten wagons up to 70kph you'll have to either initially use a brakecar or later utilize airbraked type wagons instead
00:40:04 <dreck> mm that sounds like a decent four generations of wagon there eddi
00:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be 5 or 6 generations
00:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 1870|1910|1930|1950|1970|?
00:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> after 1970 you don't find a lot of development anymore, except some niche high speed thingies for packaged stuff [mail]
00:45:34 <dreck> 1970+ hmm .. well I'll have to agree
00:45:50 <dreck> there is still always some particular articlated wagonsets but these are relatively niche
00:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> passenger wagons have a similar problem with development shifting to MUs
00:48:14 <dreck> the usa road-rail trailer thing is one rather interesting niche idea tho. problem for openttd is that openttd can't recognize how to physically move a wagon from the rail to the road :)
00:49:24 <dreck> probably best for openttd to stick to the europe-style super-long speciality flatcars where lorries and/or only-the-trailer are parked onto it
00:56:19 <dreck> btw I don't have anything for or against them but sometimes an *MU is not always my favorite thing
00:57:19 <dreck> especially regarding flexible consist for different times of day etc ... or just due to construction prices (hmm then again its no surprise that quite a lot of japan trains are made up of a healthy ratio of powered and unpowered pieces)
01:17:04 <dreck> still have to clean up my locomotives list a bit but ah who cares...let it take as long as it need to :P
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05:57:51 <supermop> i think after a few more bits of road im just going to model coffee apparatus in stead
06:07:20 <Supercheese> So, a filter, a cone to hold the filter, and a carafe? That's my coffee apparatus
06:07:40 <Supercheese> also a grinder, but that's ancillary
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06:43:39 <supermop> need a 3d print some upgrades to my hand grinder
06:44:13 <supermop> but i am envisioning some modular stand/bracket/tower system
06:45:03 <supermop> i usually use v60 cone and kono carafe, but sometimes mix it up with an aeropress
06:45:13 <supermop> but the aeropress looks cheesy
06:45:58 <supermop> so i can make some glass and metal version, and have it mount in a small tower like a cold drip set up
06:46:27 <supermop> switch out parts and use the same tower for cold brew, or to hold a cone, or to hold the ginder?
06:48:07 <supermop> first step is get some thing to clamp grinder to wall or counter, then some gears to orient the crank vertically
06:48:41 <supermop> then make it so other apparatus can mount into the same system
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08:18:13 <peter1138> Did someone mention coffee?
08:37:37 <V453000> manufacturing supplies
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09:58:23 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 38 minutes and 26 seconds ago: <Celestar> good day :)
09:59:04 <__ln__> nvm, i didn't notice you spoke already and wondered when the last time was
09:59:28 <__ln__> i'm operating within normal parameters
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11:29:20 <Sacro> What next, DarkVater and Bjarni?
11:32:06 <planetmaker> Sacro, now, don't exagerate :P
11:32:27 <Sacro> it'd be like 1998 in here
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11:54:31 <deniz1a> why does openttd use a format from Microsoft GraphEdit?
11:55:52 <deniz1a> but sacro said it does
11:56:11 <deniz1a> are you calling sacro a liar?
11:56:26 <Sacro> You're asking a question with many possible answers
11:56:55 <deniz1a> ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files?
11:59:10 <deniz1a> does .grf file include some other stuff?
12:00:34 <deniz1a> wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface?
12:00:52 <Ketsuban> Probably, but AIUI the devs don't want to break compatibility.
12:01:23 <deniz1a> there could still be converters to old .grf files
12:03:29 <deniz1a> there doesnt seem to be a feature request to replace .grf s with simple text and graphics files
12:06:02 <deniz1a> so are you saying i should make this a feature request?
12:06:13 <Ketsuban> Everyone is pretty happy with GRFs, all in all. Masochists can keep writing NFO files, the rest of us can learn NML, and the openttdcoop people can keep writing Makefiles that don't work on anyone else's computer and read like line noise.
12:07:17 <Ketsuban> I may or may not be biased from personal experience trying to make a patch for one of their projects. :)
12:07:23 <deniz1a> and why is there a special language just for openttd scripts?
12:08:18 <Ketsuban> The problem with your feature request is that your proposed text files would just be another kind of special language.
12:08:28 <deniz1a> maybe we should break compatibility with hystery
12:08:29 <Ketsuban> It's not like there's an ISO standard for transport simulation games.
12:08:54 <deniz1a> there doesn't need to be. there are general scripting languages like lua or something else
12:09:52 <Ketsuban> What are the pros of embedding Lua that counterbalance the cons of requiring new code be written and breaking compatibility with TTDPatch and all currently-available mods?
12:10:45 <deniz1a> the advantage would be easier add-ons. they would just be graphic files and their accompanying text script files
12:10:52 <deniz1a> you could directly see them
12:11:17 <Ketsuban> If you write NML then you can directly see them in your source directory.
12:11:37 <deniz1a> but arent they also made into .grf?
12:11:59 <deniz1a> when i download a newgrf file i cant see its contents without special tools, right?
12:12:30 <Ketsuban> I dunno, I'm not into reverse-engineering other peoples' mods.
12:12:53 <Ketsuban> But I'm okay with it being a modder's decision whether you get to see the human-readable resource files for their work or not.
12:12:59 <deniz1a> what about your own? can you see the contents of your newgrf mods without any tools?
12:13:25 <deniz1a> so the purpose of .grf is to obfuscate the code?
12:13:53 <deniz1a> ok that's great but that's not a .grf file
12:14:01 <Ketsuban> "Purpose" is misleading - it was originally to speed up access on 90s computers. That's the only relevant function it still has, yes.
12:14:26 <Ketsuban> Yes, I use a compiler (nmlc) to produce the grf file.
12:14:40 <Ketsuban> The same way if I write Rust code I use a compiler (rustc) to produce an executable.
12:14:46 <deniz1a> so why is it even necessary to compile these addons
12:14:54 <deniz1a> ok just to speed it up?
12:14:56 <Ketsuban> Historical reasons. What I say three times is true.
12:15:05 <deniz1a> but i guess that's not necessary with today's computers
12:15:36 <Ketsuban> It's not, but the code is already there and there's a community set up to make compiling GRFs painless, so the opportunity cost for not using Lua or whatever is amortised.
12:16:14 <deniz1a> but there could be converters for .grf to lua and new development could be done in lua
12:16:22 <deniz1a> and the add-ons would be png+plain text
12:16:31 <deniz1a> easier to see the contents and modify
12:17:06 <Ketsuban> Except seeing the contents and modifying them is already easy. I can edit a plaintext NML file, and the graphics are PNG files.
12:18:15 <Ketsuban> You're really just complaining it's mildly annoying to edit a mod you already got off Bananas. Open-source people would suggest you use the source they already made available, and closed-source people object to you wanting to mess with their code in the first place.
12:20:07 <deniz1a> or python could also be used instead of lua
12:20:43 <deniz1a> but i dont get the nml file when i doanload a newgrf. i only get .grf files
12:22:29 <deniz1a> actually you can even compile python if you give types to variables and it runs almost as fast as c
12:23:34 <deniz1a> so you could have the benefits of both: fast compiled runtime+easy readable text files
12:24:11 <deniz1a> or no if you compile it you still dont get the source. but it could be like this: you download the source and the game compiles it the first time it uses the addon
12:26:43 <deniz1a> and i think lua can also be compiled?
12:27:48 <planetmaker> <deniz1a> wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface? <-- getting rid of some historical quirks would be nice; however it wouldn't really get simpler, if you want to have the possibilities NewGRFs have
12:28:25 <deniz1a> wouldn't it be possible to have all newgrf features in a lua or python script?
12:30:20 <planetmaker> it would also be possible to rewrite OpenTTD to use a 3D engine. It would just need a few fulltime years of work
12:30:33 <planetmaker> and it wouldn't be OpenTTD anymore
12:30:41 <deniz1a> i have already completed half the work needed for that
12:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <deniz1a> ok just to speed it up? <-- NewGRFs are already one of the slowest parts of the game, you want to make it even slower, for a non-existing benefit of "human-readability"?
12:31:43 <deniz1a> yes. i have found a 3d model set for all openttd graphics
12:32:03 <planetmaker> maybe for a base set. But not for all OpenTTD graphics
12:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: including all NewGRFs ever created?
12:32:17 <deniz1a> zbase has 3d models of all the graphics
12:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: and even if it does, doesn't mean they're good.
12:32:34 <planetmaker> deniz1a, that's not the work I meant...
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12:32:48 <planetmaker> I talked about OpenTTD engine. Not the models
12:32:56 <deniz1a> and since i've completed half the work, i'm taking a break
12:33:10 <planetmaker> frankly, you did no work on zBase.
12:33:52 <deniz1a> it doesnt matter, important thing is it's done
12:34:24 <planetmaker> and re newGRFs: there does exist a complete language, two compilers for it, a nice interface... so why yet a 3rd one?
12:35:05 <planetmaker> AI and game scripts can be written in squirrel, so... there really is no benefit in using lua or python script for any newgrf related stuff
12:35:11 <deniz1a> because it's a language specific to openttd. if a general language were used, getting new developers would be easier
12:35:42 <b_jonas> deniz1a: python would probably be impossible because you couldn't run it sandboxed easily.
12:35:45 <planetmaker> it's an animal ;)
12:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> "there exists a solution" is a very mathematical way to adress a problem :p
12:36:20 <planetmaker> +1 @ Eddi|zuHause
12:36:58 <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: good news, i have already completed half the work for 3d openttd
12:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: if you're a skilled developer, the language you program in doesn't matter a lot
12:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> squirrel was chosen because it's close to C++
12:38:02 <deniz1a> that's true. but it would be better to design the game so that it uses general languages instead of a specific one
12:38:13 <planetmaker> deniz1a, if you are really interested in changing something, I strongly recommend, to get your hands dirty on real code than just bullshit talk
12:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's always a specific language.
12:39:14 <deniz1a> so why arent newgrfs also written in squirrel?
12:39:21 <planetmaker> your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented
12:39:29 <deniz1a> and why develop a new lang nml?
12:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because squirrel is not suited for what NewGRFs do.
12:39:49 <deniz1a> isn't squirrel a general purpose lang?
12:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and GRFs are not general-purpose
12:40:08 <deniz1a> any general purpose lang should be able to do what newgrfs do
12:40:19 <planetmaker> with loads and loads of boilerplate
12:40:20 <deniz1a> the specifics could be done in game code
12:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but they wouldn't be as good at that job
12:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you wouldn't catch a random person off the street to cook in a 5-star restaurant
12:41:15 <planetmaker> hihi, I like the analogy of the "general purpose cook" :)
12:41:26 <deniz1a> but if i knew how to catch one, i could have cooks for a life time
12:42:48 <deniz1a> but you could have this: a master cook who can coordinate any number of general cooks
12:43:06 <deniz1a> that master cook would be the game code and the general cooks would be any general scripting language
12:43:41 <deniz1a> so you would only need to have one master cook and could then easily expand by finding general cooks
12:43:57 <planetmaker> OpenTTD does a quite decent job at being the 'master cook'
12:44:16 <planetmaker> and the grf spec cook a decent job at describing how the NewGRF should work
12:44:26 <planetmaker> and similarly the GS and AI cooks
12:44:56 <planetmaker> anyhow, this is not going anywhere
12:44:59 <deniz1a> but you can't see the recipe of the food you get in newgrf
12:45:15 <planetmaker> I do see that very well
12:45:28 <deniz1a> but not the users. they only get .grf files
12:46:07 <planetmaker> users also don't see how a town grows or a tree or how a signal works or a whatever
12:46:28 <deniz1a> those should also be in text config files
12:46:43 <deniz1a> are those in compiled code?
12:46:44 <planetmaker> we can do that. And limit map size to 64x64 tiles.
12:47:04 <deniz1a> what does that have to do with map size?
12:47:22 <planetmaker> you basically advocate an interpreted language. Go ahead. Rewrite OpenTTD in one. And enjoy the speed of execution
12:47:57 <deniz1a> no i'm not advocating interpreted language. i say put those settings in text files and the compiled game reads from those
12:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what an interpreted language is
12:48:29 <deniz1a> no it's just some game parameters, not the game code or logic
12:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "i don't advocate swimming, i'm just saying go in the water and move your arms"
12:49:06 <planetmaker> there is openttd.cfg. Thus we already do what you advocate, deniz1a ;)
12:49:19 <planetmaker> do you understand from it how path finding works?
12:49:25 <planetmaker> all parameters are there
12:49:32 <deniz1a> ok then another task is completed!. i'm doing so much work!
12:50:07 * planetmaker ponders to look up how ignore lists work in xchat
12:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> right-click->ignore :p
12:50:43 <deniz1a> who are you going to ignore?
12:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also: /ignore <mask>
12:52:06 <planetmaker> nah, not with right-click, Eddi|zuHause. There is only ban/kick/info
12:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> get a useful client :p
12:52:45 <deniz1a> kvirc has ignore in right click menu
12:54:19 <deniz1a> so who are you going to ignore?
12:56:15 <deniz1a> it can't be me because my ideas are awesome, right?
12:57:02 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented
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12:57:28 <deniz1a> i'll do that if i ever have time
12:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: do you contact car factories and ask them: "if you made your cars of wood, people could customize them with hammer and nails."
12:59:09 <deniz1a> no but i would write angry mails to those companies that cover their engines with plastic covers
12:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "wood is general purpose, and used by lots of other products"
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13:05:15 <Ketsuban> Nah, denizia has at no point suggested OpenTTD itself should be written in an interpreted language.
13:05:41 <Ketsuban> They're talking about the extent to which it's data-oriented.
13:06:01 <deniz1a> i just said config variables should be in text files
13:07:02 <Ketsuban> The advanced settings pane is a UI for openttd.cfg. They're arguing that other aspects should be plaintext rather than an opaque binary, and my point remains that's a lot of work for very little gain.
13:07:38 <deniz1a> ok it was just a side point
13:08:02 <deniz1a> but it would be better if the add-ons you download would be in plaintext form
13:11:19 <Ketsuban> I'd argue that even if that's true, much of the benefit of plaintext mods is already provided by NML files, since most mods are released under the terms of the GPL.
13:11:53 <deniz1a> but you have to get the source file separately. when you download a newgrf, you only get compiled .grf files
13:12:09 <deniz1a> and you can't easily modify newgrfs
13:12:17 <Ketsuban> You're yet to make a convincing argument for that actually being a drawback.
13:12:30 <deniz1a> you have to get the source, modify it and then use some tools to generate .grf file
13:12:41 <Ketsuban> Open-source people already provide a file you can easily compile yourself; closed-source people would rather you not edit it at all.
13:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. because when you want to modify things, you know where to get the source files. and all other people benefit more from .grf because it's more efficient
13:13:27 <deniz1a> is there a big performance difference between script and compiled newgrfs?
13:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: about the difference of a PC vs. a mainframe needed to play the game.
13:14:40 <Ketsuban> That's not a very helpful comparison. :P By the standards of the time when "mainframe" and "PC" still had meaning, we all have supercomputers.
13:15:05 <deniz1a> for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set
13:16:08 <deniz1a> actually you can already make a supercomputer at home. you have to connect multiple processors in parallel
13:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Ketsuban: yes, but the 1000 times the computers got faster since 1994, you have 1000 times bigger maps and 1000 times more vehicles
13:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: except that openttd cannot ever use the parallel processors
13:17:44 <deniz1a> yes. building the hardware is not enough, the programs should also be able to support parallel execution
13:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: the link to the source is right there on bananas.
13:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: sure, just solve one of the biggest problems in computer science of today.
13:19:04 <deniz1a> added to my task list
13:19:59 <planetmaker> deniz1a, if you are unable to skim a readme of a package you are interested in for a link to its sources, I'm afraid, then also plain text files wouldn't help you.
13:20:19 <planetmaker> Yes, zBase comes with a readme, readable from ingame, with a link to its sources. It's even one of the *headings* in the readme
13:20:39 <deniz1a> i wasnt looking for the source files, i just realized it's not in the newgrf file
13:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and you expect someone who wants text files for easier modification be able to read a text file? preposterous!
13:21:08 <planetmaker> yeah, I think I was presumptious
13:21:29 <planetmaker> <deniz1a> for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set <-- and yes, you were, deniz1a
13:21:40 <deniz1a> you should try being postsumptious
13:22:12 <deniz1a> yes from the content download window you cant get the source
13:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you get a link to the source.
13:23:18 <deniz1a> it says visit website and the page doesnt exist
13:23:43 <deniz1a> isn't that postposterous?
13:25:14 <deniz1a> preposterous has the prefixes pre and post in it!
13:25:33 <deniz1a> so is it before or after the fact?
13:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then report that error of the missing website.
13:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> on the website :p
13:29:13 * Eddi|zuHause gets a "there's a hole in the bucket" vibe
13:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> probably have to log in
13:31:48 <deniz1a> can you tell them the link has zBase in it but it should be zbase
13:31:58 <deniz1a> capital b makes the link incorrect
13:36:03 <deniz1a> was i not clear about that at the beginning?
13:36:55 <planetmaker> I can't answer that without insult
13:38:38 <deniz1a> "<deniz1a> ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files?" i thought you would get that the link was wrong from that sentence
13:39:29 <deniz1a> but still having a special language just for openttd seems weird
13:39:53 <samu> hey i have a question about cargo dist again
13:40:38 <samu> I have a helicopter trying to full loadpassengers at an airport, but those passengers are from another station
13:41:03 <samu> now the airport also have some passengers that are going via any station to any station
13:41:17 <samu> why won't the helicopter load those?
13:41:17 <deniz1a> what kind of passengers are those?
13:41:25 <deniz1a> they just want to go anywhere?
13:41:41 <samu> yes, I think that's the thing
13:41:51 <samu> the helicopter is still trying to load
13:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you should avoid passengers "to any station"
13:42:29 <deniz1a> yeah, they're trouble
13:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> they break your feeder systems and stuff
13:42:50 <deniz1a> why would they? dont they get off at the first station?
13:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you can try "unload all" orders
13:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: not when that station doesn't actually accept them
13:43:35 <deniz1a> stations have accept restrictions? oh you mean no passengers?
13:43:37 <samu> they're transfered there though
13:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist turns all orders to "transfer" implicitly
13:43:59 <deniz1a> yeah you get transfers automatically
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13:46:03 <samu> gasp, nevermind, i'm looking at this wrong
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13:46:30 <andythenorth> V453000: transition effects are Worst Thing Eva
13:46:32 <samu> sorry, i have several windows open and trying to follow them all
13:46:43 <samu> was looking at the wrong station
13:46:50 <V453000> what are transition effects andy?
13:47:25 <andythenorth> it’s a method for making everything ugly
13:49:38 <samu> so it happens there's no "any station" after all at this airport, that "any station" was from another airport. False alarm
13:49:50 <samu> following all this is confusing
13:51:18 <V453000> andythenorth: how would I even do that XD extra industry tiles? :D
13:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so when does andythenorth learn that "forums" is a terrible location descriptor
13:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i don't even get what that guy is asking for
13:52:04 <V453000> so his location descriptor was top notch :D
13:52:17 <V453000> I guess newobjects which transition from thing A to thing B
13:52:22 <andythenorth> he wants holes in your ground tiles
13:52:24 <V453000> for all combination, all slopes, everything
13:52:34 <V453000> I dont think he knows what he wants :D
13:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i think what he means is that the edge of the ISR tile looks less obvious, because the whole ISR tile is not opaque and thus the ground shines through
13:55:09 <samu> roads that deteriorate over time creating holes that slows down traffic?
13:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: this is not sim city :p
13:57:19 <deniz1a> simcity gets boring after a while
13:58:13 <deniz1a> if openttd had some gameplay changes it could be the best game
13:58:42 <V453000> hm so andythenorth why is it such a bad idea? :D doesnt sounds THAT bad to me
13:58:44 <planetmaker> V453000, you do that by providing two ground sprites basically
13:59:00 <andythenorth> V453000: looks ugly
13:59:12 <V453000> I already do that pm, the top one just is 100% fulltile :)
13:59:14 <planetmaker> first draw the normal grass as lowest ground sprite. Then draw on top the concrete one which has some transparent holes in it at the appropriate borders
13:59:22 <V453000> idk it doesnt have to look ugly I suppose :)
13:59:42 <planetmaker> and I do think he has a point that it can look better in some cases
14:00:00 <andythenorth> one of the reasons I don’t use ISR ever
14:00:10 <V453000> andythenorth never uses ISR
14:00:29 <andythenorth> can’t stand the sight of it
14:00:41 <andythenorth> I was hoping to fix it, but the work is too much
14:00:53 <V453000> looks like I got a job to do to annoy andy XD
14:01:12 <planetmaker> V453000, where did your station coder vanish to?
14:01:55 <V453000> has not stated that they arent coming back, but I dont think cats will be done anytime soon at all :)
14:02:37 <planetmaker> :( he started so nice on nml stations :)
14:02:43 <planetmaker> it all sounded promising
14:03:25 <V453000> well it was the same a year ago :(
14:04:00 <planetmaker> hm, was it the same guy?
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15:14:36 <samu> cargo flow legend is interesting
15:15:03 <samu> the color is an estimate?
15:16:27 <samu> that green to yellow to red
15:17:04 <samu> red means I need more vehicles transporting on that route, right? it is not necessarily the amount of waiting cargo
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15:28:13 <samu> "The yellow and red shades are only shown if Cargodist is enabled for the selected cargoes and the link graph calculation has determined that the link has too little capacity for the amount of cargo to be transported there"
15:28:26 <samu> this is too much information to digest all at once
15:28:36 <samu> but ends up being simple
15:34:49 <samu> I have a suggestion, add a tool tip when mousing over that legend
15:35:08 <samu> when there's a light green or a dark red
15:35:36 <samu> would be helpful to understand what the colors mean
15:38:20 <samu> also, green at first gave me the wrong perception of it
15:38:33 <samu> I was thinking, "so it's green, everything is good then"
15:39:18 <samu> should have been in shades of blue
15:40:41 <samu> the saturated point should be the brightest, I guess
15:43:21 <samu> the over capacity point should be in a strong blue
15:44:17 <samu> as for the unused, hmm I have no idea, but something that doesn't resemble blue, red or white
15:46:31 <samu> eww feels like im alone on here, well those are my ideas and first impressions of cargo flow, hope someone reads them
15:48:27 <V453000> everybody does but nobody cares about them
15:52:16 <andythenorth> we’re just amazed it works
15:53:03 <V453000> just grab notepad++ and get working samu :)
15:54:40 <samu> notepad++ hmm what am i gonna do?
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16:02:10 <V453000> then go draw sprites :P
16:14:10 <Alberth> frez sprites are alwayz tasty
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16:54:33 <samu> Oilfield is blocking another Oilfield. Ship can't dock there
16:54:40 <samu> I thought this had been fixed
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17:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> how and where did you get that impression?
17:09:37 <samu> flat area around industries: 1
17:10:43 <Alberth> not enough to turn a ship
17:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: i don't think that applies to oil rigs.
17:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> oil rigs have some special creation rules that make sure they are in a larger body of water. but this is like the border of a rectangle of 8x8 (or so) around the oil rig, so another oil rig may be within this ring
17:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the "flat area" is just a check that it's flat. there may be other obstacles within this area
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17:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. you could override the layout for the oil rig with one that checks more tiles for being water
17:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> this involves writing a NewGRF
17:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> might be a nice beginner's exercise on industry NewGRFs
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18:25:16 <samu> beginner's exercise on industry newgrf
18:25:26 <samu> if it's easy, i can try to do it
18:25:40 <Alberth> read about making newgrfs?
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18:27:31 <samu> no, it's for the oil rig creation
18:27:57 <samu> it should check for water tiles nearby
18:28:05 <samu> to avoid blocking another oilrig
18:28:36 <samu> change a layout or something, meh you help me?
18:29:05 <Alberth> suggesting to read about making newgrfs is not helping?
18:29:49 <andythenorth> assuming default industries, not other newgrfs
18:30:03 <andythenorth> (1) set up a newgrf that modifies existing oil rig
18:30:19 <andythenorth> (2) copy the layouts (they can probably be found in nfo wiki) and add more magic tiles
18:31:16 <andythenorth> probably about 2 days work
18:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that would be (5) then
18:33:35 <Alberth> samu: the point with these journeys is that the end-result is not that important, it's the journey that counts
18:34:04 <Alberth> oh, you want to keep a ? item in, eh? :)
18:34:08 <andythenorth> (6) release, put on forums, receive endless feature request
18:34:52 <samu> is this only going to work for oil rig vs oil rig?
18:35:04 <samu> if I can actually manage to do it
18:35:37 <andythenorth> this will only work for default oil rig, or oil rigs in newgrfs that redefine default (if your grf is after that one in the newgrf window)
18:36:36 <samu> ah, so it has nothing to do with the "flat area around industries" setting?
18:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it wouldn't be much of a running gag (or new-wordy: "meme") otherwise :p
18:37:56 <Alberth> and so the journey starts....
18:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it will never work with other NewGRFs. each NewGRF operates on a new copy of the default industries
18:58:06 * andythenorth waits for steam activation email
19:04:06 <samu> i still couldn't figure out where to start
19:04:36 <samu> now what do I need? Some layout of a Oil Rig thing?
19:08:10 <Alberth> be less concerned about the end result, and enjoying the journey of finding the answer to "how"
19:08:40 <Alberth> more concretely, start reading things, like the manual/wiki
19:08:41 <samu> where do I find that layout? I must edit upon it
19:09:21 <andythenorth> first you must make a basic grf that you can get into gam
19:09:25 <Alberth> step 1 does not mention layout at all, afaik
19:09:28 <andythenorth> it can have zero features
19:09:36 <andythenorth> but it must compile and appear in game correctly
19:32:13 <andythenorth> has FIRS makefile lost TEST_INDUSTRY support again?
19:32:24 <andythenorth> it’s a compile time flag
19:48:11 <andythenorth> hmm works if the other args are supplied
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20:20:24 <samu> C:\Users\Ricardo\Downloads\nml-v5465-windows-win32
20:21:00 <frosch123> anyone ever used the chat window width setting?
20:21:06 <frosch123> it makes no sense to me :p
20:21:16 <samu> ←[Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
20:21:25 <frosch123> i wonder whether it should be replaced by some "percentage of screen width" settings instead
20:21:41 <samu> double gui size doesn't double that
20:21:56 <frosch123> some of the custom sizing things like multiplayer list likely need to be rewritten
20:22:04 <frosch123> no idea actually why they are done like that
20:22:23 <samu> so what am i doing wrong here? I tried to follow the tutorial
20:23:33 <samu> undefined command "VERSION"
20:23:47 <frosch123> oi, albert isn't here. am i alone then? :p
20:24:48 <samu> STR_GRF_NAME :Oil Rig {VERSION}
20:26:43 <michi_cc> Don't skip the section about custom_tags.txt (or read it more carefully :)
20:36:28 <samu> undefined command "VERSION" I dont know why
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20:40:49 <samu> now I added a TITTLE :Oil Rig
20:41:02 <samu> it still complains about undeficed command "VERSION"
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20:42:36 <samu> wait, let me upload this thing
20:52:00 <michi_cc> samu: custom_tags.txt: UTF-8 Unicode (with BOM) text, with CRLF line terminators
20:52:29 <michi_cc> samu: i.e. don't save your stuff with a byte order mark.
20:52:51 <samu> what the hell is that? I just saved as UTF-8
20:53:11 <michi_cc> Use a real text editor then :)
20:54:46 <michi_cc> That would be a not-real text editor (which assumes UTF-8 with byte order mark, even if almost nothing except Microsoft does).
20:55:15 <samu> i will try the other options
20:55:26 <michi_cc> Notepad++ should work.
20:55:56 <michi_cc> It will do with and without BOM just fine.
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20:56:01 <samu> there's ANSI, Unicode, Unicode Big Endian and UTF-8 to pick from in Notepad, would any of these work?
20:56:30 <michi_cc> ANSI, as long as you stay within a - z.
20:56:57 <michi_cc> It's a strict subset of UTF-8. Don't try accents though.
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20:58:07 <samu> what does this mean? it worked?
21:01:09 <samu> it's listed in OpenTTD menu
21:11:43 <frosch123> hmm, that's a reverse diff... so they were added
21:11:51 <frosch123> just eints failed to set an author
21:14:35 <samu> so, about that oil rig layout
21:22:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: dunno :)
21:34:00 <samu> the tutorial is teaching me to create a truck, I don't want to do that :(
21:37:56 <andythenorth> I’d say look at FIRS, but it’s way to complex
21:38:01 <andythenorth> look at ogfx + industries
21:38:08 <andythenorth> or manpower industries maybe
21:38:19 <andythenorth> or manual industries (name?)
22:06:18 * andythenorth needs a varaction 2 chain that loops by reading a counter in a register
22:06:44 <andythenorth> and reads values from other registers, the register location incrementing 1 per loop
22:06:53 <andythenorth> this is probably an Eddi thing :P
22:07:20 <andythenorth> given that can’t loop back to same varact 2, this idea may be flawed
22:08:02 <andythenorth> there is another, horrible, solution, but it might run out of varact 2 IDs maybe
22:08:08 * andythenorth will try another day
22:13:06 <andythenorth> what’s the varact 2 ID limit in nml? 255?
22:13:59 <andythenorth> wiki doesn’t seem to know
22:14:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: nml outputs it on every run :p
22:14:51 <andythenorth> oh that nice new display :)
22:14:57 <andythenorth> that is nice btw
22:15:10 * andythenorth needs to find his glasses
22:16:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: what’s it labelled as? Concurrent Action2 registers?
22:17:07 <frosch123> spritesets = action1 ids
22:17:12 <frosch123> spritegroups = varact2 ids
22:17:34 <frosch123> action2 registers = temporary storage = complexity inside a single switch / spritelayout
22:18:11 <andythenorth> yeah, that’s what I first assumed, was looking for some other action 2 stat as well
22:18:22 <andythenorth> spritegroup makes sense now
22:19:17 <andythenorth> the count reported for spritegroup, I assume is total in a single chain?
22:19:32 <frosch123> it's the branching factor of a chain
22:19:52 <frosch123> how flat can you punch the tree :)
22:20:17 <andythenorth> so (theoretically), if I wanted a switch with 255 possible results (to other unique switches)
22:20:21 <andythenorth> that’s just possible
22:20:50 <frosch123> yes, but no switch after it can refer to some other switch before
22:21:04 <frosch123> the 256 is a wall no other switch can pass over
22:21:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth, 255 is a hard limit
22:21:17 <andythenorth> no switch anywhere, or no switch in that chain?
22:21:30 <frosch123> grfv9 suggests to increase that limit btw :p
22:21:53 <andythenorth> no switch anywhere
22:21:57 * andythenorth sees how it works
22:22:01 <andythenorth> much easier to model it as nfo :P
22:22:24 <andythenorth> the pointer location got reset :P
22:22:53 <andythenorth> that is going to be somewhat interesting to handle
22:23:45 <andythenorth> can I reliably organise my nml input, placing switches in the file to workaround this?
22:23:49 <andythenorth> or is that doomed?
22:23:59 <frosch123> nml does not reorder switches
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22:24:19 <frosch123> so, it's up to you to optimise the maximum active switches
22:24:43 <andythenorth> so if I needed a massive 255 ID switch, and it’s the first chain in the file...
22:25:06 <andythenorth> later (unrelated) chains still work
22:25:30 <frosch123> anyway, it's likely more clever to compute results than using huge switches :)
22:25:38 <andythenorth> this is only coming up because I’ve exceeded max industries
22:25:55 <andythenorth> so I have to reuse IDs
22:26:20 <andythenorth> so all industries have to now share the same switches
22:27:14 <andythenorth> so I have to stuff a uid into a register at the start of each switch chain
22:27:19 <andythenorth> then switch on the uid later
22:27:38 <andythenorth> until I hit the switch limit
22:27:55 <frosch123> just add a if and definite separate items
22:28:03 <andythenorth> can’t if switches
22:28:19 <andythenorth> may not wrap action 2 of any kind in action D
22:28:25 <andythenorth> may have misunderstood
22:28:32 <frosch123> manual industries does if around items everywhere
22:28:36 <andythenorth> misunderstanding would be optimum outcome here
22:28:39 <frosch123> "item" is not action2
22:29:56 <andythenorth> I saw this problem in game, maybe I’m mis-solving it
22:31:44 <andythenorth> when reusing IDs, I had wrong industry window text
22:32:23 <andythenorth> but item with that cb isn’t in an if block
22:32:25 <andythenorth> which would explain it
22:33:18 <andythenorth> props block is wrapped in if
22:33:43 <andythenorth> eh, problem solved if that works
22:35:21 <samu> am i looking at the right place?
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22:42:11 <samu> where would I place the 'item {' line?
22:43:24 <samu> goes inside 'grf {' part?
22:43:38 <Supercheese> Just by itself like that
22:43:48 <Supercheese> not within grf block
22:46:24 <samu> ah, what is the difference between industry tiles and industries?
22:47:20 <Supercheese> Well, the industries feature will require tile layouts comprised of industry tile(s)
22:48:39 <Supercheese> So if defining a completely new industry, you need the item block for the industry, at least one tile layout, and at least one item block with an industrytile
22:51:15 <planetmaker> you can re-use the pre-defined default industry tiles. In principle
22:52:15 <Supercheese> yes, but "completely new"
22:53:18 <samu> The objective is, I wanted to modify the creation rules for oil rig, they shouldn't be able to spawn adjacent to other oil rigs
22:53:21 <Supercheese> you could even use a default industry and just tweak it a bit
22:53:31 <Supercheese> oh that may be what you want
22:53:55 <samu> to leave a room of water for ships to dock
22:53:56 <Supercheese> you can probably just override the properties
22:54:12 <Supercheese> mightn't need to mess with tiles
22:54:42 <Supercheese> could mess with location_check callback
22:55:38 <samu> it's FEAT_INDUSTRIES then?
22:56:12 <Supercheese> let me paste some code
22:57:40 <Supercheese> and then define the callback
22:58:25 <Supercheese> which I believe must be done above that block in the file
23:02:09 <Supercheese> where you can change the 6 to whatever value
23:02:31 <Supercheese> note I have not checked any of this code, just my initial hunch
23:04:09 <Supercheese> Hmm, maybe I should be using the ottdcoop paste...
23:04:17 <samu> i believe there's two ways for doing this
23:05:29 <samu> make the oil rig fatter to occupy more water tiles to let ships docks when another one is spawning nearby
23:05:43 <samu> or alter the rules to the oil rig
23:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i think changing the layout is easier
23:06:33 <samu> or am I missing something I'm not aware
23:06:45 <Supercheese> the callback method would probably take fewer lines of code
23:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> changing the creation rules needs some learning about how the NewGRF logic works
23:06:49 <Supercheese> although I'm not sure
23:07:00 <Supercheese> and not that that's an imperative metric...
23:07:49 <samu> how would a ship go into that tile?
23:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the ship goes adjacent to the station tile
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23:12:29 <samu> if i increase the oil rig size with one more tile, the one in front of the station, can i configure that tile to allow ships to go into it? gah, this is starting to look complicated
23:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the tiles are special placeholders for construcion. after construction they are plain water tiles
23:14:13 <Eddi|zuHause> they are not actually part of the resulting industry
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23:41:52 <samu> aha, here it is the thing
23:47:54 <dreck> I know its a bit unrelated but hmm any of you know if 4-axle trucks (versus the more common 2- and 3-axles) were ever used on anything outside oversized/transformer load flatcars?
23:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> oversized/flatcars can have 12 axles or more
23:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, i have no helpful information...
23:52:03 <samu> Oil rigs are slightly special industries, since they have industry "tile" FFh, which doesn't create anything on the landscape, but the tile is still checked, and construction fails if it isn't a clear water tile.
23:52:30 <samu> there is a xx behind the oil rig
23:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that only affects the new oil rig, existing oil rigs might still be blocked this way
23:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> replicate the xx around the whole oil rig to prevent this
23:55:35 <samu> oh, other question, where can I open this to edit it
23:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> what are you hoping to edit?
23:55:55 <samu> must i create one from scratch
23:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> this must go into your NewGRF
23:57:26 <samu> ah, so it must be copy pasted, then adjust
23:57:46 <samu> grr, what exactly am I copying, lol sorry for so many questions
23:58:23 <dreck> heh samu well sometimes you just learn by trial and error right? :)
23:58:42 <dreck> thats somewhat why I like grfcodec...plop my grf into the game and if no errors or bugs then I know I got it
23:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the syntax will be a bit different, so i'm not sure what copying would achieve
23:58:58 <samu> i want to pick the original footprint, and edit from it
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continue to next day ⏵
