IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-01
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00:00:14 <dreck> just a bit real-life tidbit...the small pixel scale for in-game roads makes this a bit moot perhaps
00:00:41 <NGC3982> Dreck: There you are.
00:02:44 <dreck> supermop actually I've been trying to draw some simple little boxes to go on top of the existing generic tramtrk.grf thing inbetween other projects just for fun
00:09:03 <supermop> these built in material textures are worthless
00:10:35 <supermop> in rhinoceros - the ones that come with the flamingo rendering plug in circa 2010
00:17:54 <supermop> too bad its rainy today or i'd just photograph the stones out in front on my house
00:18:27 <supermop> no one on google image search has taken a photo of this type of pavement from straight above
00:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: never expect that you control all vehicles that will go over your tram track. it should look proper with any tram set that exists
00:26:52 <supermop> for now ill take what i can find and skew/correct in photoshop
00:27:57 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i am now thinking so too - especially because if one places road-tram-road instead of tramway on road, narrow tramway will give too much extra space between the roadways
00:28:24 <supermop> so i guess tram rail should be centered within each traffic lane
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00:44:41 * dreck is wondering if railroads only used 3-axle chassis to get higher speed and/or smoother ride out of what would be otherwise just the same chassis used by conventional 2-axle setup
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01:42:02 <dreck> oh well I'll just put it down to real railroad nitpicks!
01:53:22 * dreck has the boat list full and rv still in limbo heh
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04:13:19 <Flygon_> supermop: I'm presuming you'll implement dooring cyclists as a game mechanism
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04:26:40 <supermop> Flygon: that's why the road tiles don't have bike lanes and parking coexisting
04:27:51 <supermop> I think I will also cheat by drawing the U loop in tram tracks as a Y shaped shunt
04:28:14 <Supercheese> Maybe I should add bicyclists to Eyecandy RVs
04:28:25 <Supercheese> 1x zoom they'd be horribly tiny though
04:28:25 <supermop> will look bad when trams use it but the rest of the time will look like a real line terminus
04:28:57 <supermop> toyota used to use bike couriers for just in time deliveries to factories in the 50s and 60s
04:29:49 <supermop> i think there is use for some special heavy trucks
04:30:34 <supermop> like garbage trucks that refit only to recyclables, cement mixers that refit only to bdmt
04:31:14 <supermop> a combine that refits to farm supplies and is the farm supply
04:31:25 <supermop> and is invisible when empty
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04:43:47 <supermop> hows it going Supercheese ?
04:45:13 <Supercheese> Muy bien, gracias
04:45:54 <Supercheese> Hmm, vehicles that are invisible when empty eh?
04:46:08 <Supercheese> might be a bit dodgy if they get stuck somewhere
04:46:32 <Supercheese> "Vehicle X is lost" but vehicle X is also invisible...
04:48:20 <supermop> hmm shown as a regular car when empty as the driver drives back to the john deere dealer to buy another combine?
04:49:25 <Supercheese> I guess you could just find vehicle X in the vehicle list and click it that way, even if invisible
04:49:34 <Supercheese> one-way invisibility isn't a bad idea really
04:50:17 * Supercheese wonders if the various combines from ISR etc. are drawn in 8-directions
04:50:40 <supermop> same for heqs mining trucks as eng sup
04:50:42 <Supercheese> I doubt it, though; stations are only 4-direction
04:51:29 <supermop> want to model tram track frogs as i feel they will look good at 4x zoom
04:51:39 <supermop> but cant recall what they look like
04:51:59 <supermop> tramway stretch in front of my house has no junctions
04:58:01 <supermop> just sort of made it up
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05:18:49 <Supercheese> maybe use Google Streetview?
05:18:57 <Supercheese> they should have pretty much every major street mapped
05:19:34 <Supercheese> admittedly the images are low quality, but it's something
05:30:50 <supermop> yeah i cant get in far enough to see frogs
05:31:01 <supermop> here is what I've tried for now:
05:32:27 <supermop> i just realized that the crossing i modelled can never exist in game
05:32:44 <supermop> as all X tram junctions are grand unions
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05:38:14 <supermop> and the center will be too littered with curves for any of that stuff shown to be used
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06:17:55 <supermop> should a tram making a right turn cut inside of the centerpoint of a tile or go slightly ouside of it
06:18:17 <supermop> it seems like they go outside of the centerpoint in game
06:19:05 <supermop> but i can reduce number of weird frogs to draw if opposite outside curved tracks do not cross
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09:33:47 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
09:50:17 <andythenorth> “Create group from shared orders list”
09:50:51 <Wolf01> indeed, the other way too, share orders from a group
09:50:52 <andythenorth> instead of ‘scroll through 500 trains in 2x UI, find one, drag it (with laggy cursor) to a new group, then find ‘add shared vehicles’
09:51:30 <andythenorth> I should turn off ‘while paused’ restrictions
09:51:42 <andythenorth> then I could pause so that the UI is usable
09:52:04 <andythenorth> workarounds and hax
09:52:25 <andythenorth> using the system cursor is out of the question?
09:52:32 <andythenorth> the laggy cursor is really painful to play with
09:56:39 <V453000> yeah train management utilities are always a good feature >]
10:10:10 <V453000> big release there andy :P
10:14:31 <Wolf01> did you make "consist management" instead of "create group from shared order"?
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10:15:04 <andythenorth> wish someone would
10:15:09 * andythenorth is making trains longer, manually
10:15:35 <andythenorth> change one, scrap rest in the order group, clone the first one n times
10:15:45 <andythenorth> wastes some money and cargo
10:16:03 <Wolf01> eh, reminds me of cabeese when replacing steam wengines with new diesel/electric ones
10:34:49 <andythenorth> yay, V453000 commented my thread \o/
10:35:20 <andythenorth> we should start a circle-jerk agreement
10:35:37 <andythenorth> releasing weeks of work to “….” response is not motivating :P
10:35:52 <andythenorth> or only receiving random wtf feature requests in response
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10:48:36 <Alberth> let's hire sunshare for the latter :p
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10:53:34 <supermop> V453000: will be happy to hear ive been spending hours today modelling frogs
10:54:09 <supermop> all sorts of boolean operations on weird solids in rhino for grand union frogs
10:54:35 <supermop> i also fear lack of cars will look worse
10:55:45 <supermop> also the tracks are reflective at the moment but there is nothing for them to reflect. Do you use a skybox/dome?
11:00:06 <andythenorth> shhh…he’s playing FIRS, leave him alone :D
11:19:04 <Alberth> "... As you probably well know, OpenTTD scale is more uniform than anything. ..." :D good one V
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11:40:15 <frosch123> supermop: tell me more about that "grand union frogs" :)
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11:52:51 <frosch123> ah, that kind of frogs :) (found the forum topic)
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12:23:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27131 /trunk/src (misc_gui.cpp widgets/dropdown.cpp) (2015-02-01 12:23:39 UTC)
12:23:43 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Dropdown- and tooltip-windows should not steal the focus.
12:25:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27132 trunk/src/map_type.h (2015-02-01 12:25:51 UTC)
12:25:55 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Add an assertion about the size of the Tile struct to ensure alignment assumptions.
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12:37:35 <Alberth> I wonder if it should be a developer setting
12:37:43 <frosch123> problem is that ottd does not just send hotkeys to the focussed window, but traverses the whole window stack until one wants it
12:38:16 <frosch123> so, if the focussed window does not handle it, a "random" other window may handle it
12:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> then only actual input boxes should show focus
12:39:27 <Alberth> and this highlight helps understand which window gets the first chance?
12:39:53 <Alberth> not sure how useful that is, unless you know which window eats which keys
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12:41:21 <frosch123> hmm, aw, it's even more weird
12:41:40 <frosch123> there are two methods to describe the focus of a window, and they are not always in sync :/
12:41:44 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: It's deeper than that, if you reposition a window, it raises to the top of the stack
12:41:47 <frosch123> ok, screw it, revert :)
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12:42:30 <frosch123> i assume ottd actually had a proper focus handling meanwhile, but it does not
12:44:28 <V453000> supermop: some sort of sky is good to have imo :)
12:45:01 <V453000> especially since you already do render in orthographic, which makes a lot of reflections/refractions seriously unnatural and fucked up
12:45:15 <V453000> so giving things some more stuff to reflect is especially nice
12:47:10 <frosch123> Alberth: it's like the catchment area. we cannot add a useful visualisation for them because that would only show how inconsistent/broken the underlying game logic is. so we keep on obfuscating by not displaying it properly :)
12:48:34 <Alberth> yay for hysteric raisins :)
13:07:42 <supermop> just tried tapering a surface of this frog and i think it is going to melt my cpu
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13:21:58 <andythenorth> Everything must be consistent!
13:22:14 <andythenorth> How can we even play this game with its broken mechanics!
13:22:48 <andythenorth> Where is your plan? Your flowchart? Your scheduled? project
13:22:58 * andythenorth forgets how to words
13:24:24 <Alberth> let's just redefine logic ?
13:27:41 <Alberth> this is the first one
13:34:37 <andythenorth> can I haz minimise (windowshade) on station construction window?
13:34:54 <andythenorth> in 2x, I have to move it every time to build stations
13:35:11 <frosch> you can store the size
13:35:46 <andythenorth> but I am using 2x on a 13” screen
13:36:05 <andythenorth> to see the station tiles in the list, I need it fairly large
13:36:11 <andythenorth> but then it fills most of thw viewport
13:36:32 <andythenorth> also, I actually have it minimum size
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14:00:42 <andythenorth> 5 year old is complaining that ottd is ‘ridiculously slow’ :P
14:00:47 <andythenorth> on map scroll and ffwd
14:01:04 <andythenorth> his benchmark is my wife’s mac, which is much older i5
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17:13:38 <frosch> i keep on wondering what grfs will get the name ASDF, YOLO, SWAG, ...
17:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Game Of Thrones Deaths?
17:15:16 <V453000> I am actually considering NUTS2 ... idk name for it yet :)
17:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever heard "swag" in a non-ironic way
17:16:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: FIRS obiwan on UK keyboard
17:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> usually, at least for me, these kinds of obiwans are limited to one hand
17:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> more likely the right hand
17:17:42 <V453000> ARTS Realistic Train Set
17:18:05 <frosch> does it include all bad features?
17:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "ARTS" was some ancient linux framework for sound, before ALSA came along
17:19:22 <V453000> I am thinking about trying to make some nicer scaled vehicles, everything to be longer
17:19:56 <V453000> the 8/8 looks dumbly short whem rendered
17:20:43 <frosch> V453000: but you cannot make them higher
17:20:50 <V453000> if everything would be 2x8/8 it would look more natural / less shortened
17:20:55 <frosch> so, did you try making them narrower?
17:22:34 <V453000> the fat x tall is good ratio now but could use more length
17:23:56 <V453000> and I would keep them articulated, no stupid 16/8 sprites
17:24:20 <V453000> more bending but mehhh
17:24:38 <frosch> WETRAIL bends anyway :)
17:25:59 <V453000> only downside is no double head :(
17:26:45 <V453000> i guess feature request for dual head articulation is nono?
17:27:24 <frosch> you can let the user build two, and make them display alternating directions
17:27:44 <frosch> will also allow users to build them in non-fixed positions :p
17:27:45 <V453000> yeah I do that with chameleon
17:27:56 <frosch> you know, that thing people complain about :)
17:28:48 <V453000> more reasonable request: dragging articulated and dual head tra
17:29:19 <V453000> now you have to drag the first part
17:29:43 <frosch> hmm, i thought that was implemented long ago
17:29:43 <V453000> possible to aííow dragging any part?
17:29:54 <frosch> it will only show the first part at the mouse cursor, but i think you can click any part
17:30:09 <V453000> hm it probably works with articulated
17:30:30 <frosch> yeah, the rear-head auto-moves
17:30:37 <frosch> you cannot position it individually
17:30:56 <V453000> will do some testing :)
17:31:37 <V453000> sure but if you drag rear head it throws error :(
18:01:32 <V453000> DOOM Overly Obese Machinery
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18:26:14 <andythenorth> dragging articulated trains is a PITA
18:26:18 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is horrible
18:26:28 <andythenorth> you have to drag the head part, which is often 1/8
18:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> just make the depot view a full length sprite
18:26:58 <V453000> in which regard is that bad andy?
18:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it works fine in CETS
18:27:16 <V453000> as in, once can always make the first part have a sprite_in_depot == whatever
18:29:34 <V453000> is that a viable solution?
18:30:23 <V453000> e.g. I have 3 articulated parts, if I make the sprite in depot for the first one big, will it do good things?
18:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two things that are affected here: the sprite on the curser, and the gap that it makes in the chain that you drag it to
18:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the first one you can influence with "depot sprite", the second you can't
18:31:32 <V453000> well I guess the second one isnt too problematic though?
18:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
18:32:28 <V453000> you dont think it is problematic or vice versa? :D
18:33:35 <frosch> the only problem is that you are talking with people who do not play the game :p
18:33:51 <frosch> the second thing was fixed 2 years ago
18:34:37 <V453000> frosch the problem is I dont play either anymore
18:35:10 <frosch> i read on reddit that ottd is the game starcraft2 players retire to
18:35:18 <frosch> what game do ottd players retire to?
18:35:50 <V453000> idk but I think ottd players retire to newgrfs
18:35:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how are you solving it? Adjusting vehicle length when in depot?
18:36:09 <V453000> and what andy said :)
18:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, just change the sprite (extra_callbac_info1)
18:37:06 <frosch> andythenorth: you can display different sprites in viewports, depot, vehicle lists, newspaper, ...
18:37:18 <andythenorth> how does that affect the drag target?
18:37:35 <V453000> yeah, thats why I say I will replace the depot sprite too :) sounds like a good solution
18:37:42 <V453000> and if Eddi does it then it cant possibly be wrong
18:37:46 <andythenorth> do I need to dibble the x and yextent or something?
18:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i disagree with you.
18:39:21 <andythenorth> yeah, ok, so I need multiple depot sprites do I need
18:39:28 <andythenorth> eh makes no sense?
18:39:36 <andythenorth> are there multiple depot sprites?
18:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of templates
18:40:01 <andythenorth> nah, there’s multiple behaviours
18:40:32 <V453000> andy definitely forgot how to words
18:40:38 <andythenorth> easier to see than word
18:40:48 <frosch> andythenorth: make only the first vehicle in the chain have a sprite in depot view, make the other ones transparent
18:41:01 <frosch> similar to purchase list graphics, where also a single sprite shows the whole vehicle
18:41:38 <V453000> k so I hereby announce DOOM Obscenely Oversized Machinerz
18:41:46 <V453000> another retarded train set from V the retard
18:42:17 <frosch> andythenorth: so you are already using it?
18:42:29 <V453000> holyshitwhatthefuck andy, but yes something similar :D if not exactly the same, cant reed that
18:42:40 <andythenorth> try handling cargo with it :P
18:42:44 <andythenorth> on partial load states
18:42:54 <V453000> ah special cases in depot
18:43:23 <andythenorth> and appearing / disappearing cabs
18:43:30 <V453000> it isnt much extra work if you make the project ready for it
18:43:45 <andythenorth> anyway, which case do I need to check for ‘vehicle in depot, but not in a valid consist?’
18:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: random is easy, just make the other vehicle parts choose randomness of the first part
18:44:05 <V453000> assembling a full-sprite can be completely automatic with cut from render
18:44:28 <andythenorth> yes yes, we’re all very smart :)
18:44:38 <andythenorth> but what case do I need for ‘vehicle is in a consist with no engine?’
18:44:51 <andythenorth> then I can just add that to the existing wtf smart stuff :P
18:44:57 <V453000> why would you need a case for that?
18:47:37 <andythenorth> because you have to drag wagons in depot sometimes
18:48:03 <andythenorth> for example, when doing tedious manual consist management :P
18:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem
18:48:16 <V453000> sure but that can be handled the same way with engines and without?
18:50:26 <andythenorth> yes but it isn’t currently in Iron Horse
18:50:29 <andythenorth> so I need to fix that
18:50:38 <andythenorth> the drag behaviour is inconsistent
18:50:55 <andythenorth> I watched my 5 y/old trying to figure it out earlier, it’s really odd
18:51:12 <V453000> you have a good test slave andy :D
18:54:27 <andythenorth> it’s easier watching someone else use it
18:54:34 <andythenorth> there’s loads of UI problems that I ignore
18:54:45 <andythenorth> but explaining them to a 5 year old shows how dumb they are :)
18:54:55 <andythenorth> “loads” “some” /s
18:55:18 <V453000> if 5yo can use it, it is good and intuitive :)
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18:58:47 <andythenorth> I think that depot handling might be….a bug :o
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19:09:57 <andythenorth> put an Iron Horse wagon on a depot row with no engine
19:10:12 <andythenorth> compare it to same wagon attached to an engine
19:10:25 <andythenorth> dragging RHS of the sprite
19:12:24 <andythenorth> taking screenshot of drag working is hard :P
19:13:29 <andythenorth> maybe it’s an OS X bug
19:14:22 <andythenorth> I have to drive now, maybe I can find some screen recording tool later
19:14:44 <andythenorth> doesn’t really show the effect
19:14:55 <andythenorth> if I can figure it out
19:19:16 <andythenorth> H264 .mov, should work for most of you
19:22:03 <frosch> does not happen for me
19:22:12 <frosch> no idea what could be osx specific
19:23:02 <frosch> yeah, it's a gui zoom bug
19:23:07 <frosch> works fine with 1x zoom
19:25:00 <V453000> so what is bugged with the extra zoom gui frosch?
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19:32:12 <frosch> bah, someone was too lazy to write ZOOM_LVL_BASE and wrote 4 everywhere
19:40:07 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27133 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-02-01 19:40:04 UTC)
19:40:08 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Dragging of free wagons in depot failed with GUI zoom.
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20:31:17 <frosch> i am not sure about the naming of UnScaleGUI and ScaleGUITrad
20:31:43 <frosch> the "UnScale" vs "Scale" looks weird
20:32:01 <frosch> maybe drop the "Scale" entirely and do "ZoomGUI" and "ZoomGUITrad" ?
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20:33:42 <frosch> andythenorth: pull! better?
20:35:49 <Alberth> tbh I never understood Scale and UnScale
20:36:01 <Alberth> (Unscale looks better to me)
20:37:40 <Alberth> src/zoom_func.h constants in the doxymentation need a # prefix
20:38:37 <andythenorth> frosch: fixed - tested at 2x :)
20:39:02 <andythenorth> UI niggles are minor, but really annoying
20:39:18 <Alberth> but looking at the zoom functions, both functions seem to move in the opposite directions, so opposite names can be defended
20:41:16 <Alberth> wooow lots of changes :)
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20:54:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27134 /trunk/src (25 files) (2015-02-01 20:54:24 UTC)
20:54:28 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Simplify GUI scaling by adding UnScaleGUI() and ScaleGUITrad().
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22:04:52 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27135 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2015-02-01 22:04:50 UTC)
22:04:53 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Misalignment in generate world window in case of small fonts.
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