IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-01-25
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01:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the feeling "deranged brony" [username on tt-f] is a bit redundant
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07:51:04 <Alberth> I promised to look at something, but I totally forgot what it was
07:51:31 <andythenorth> specifically the existing doc target in the makefile
07:51:45 <andythenorth> I wonder if it’s something where pm just knows the answer though
07:52:04 <andythenorth> I know makefiles have had a lot of changes since 2009, I wonder if FIRS one is just a fossil full of string
07:54:53 * andythenorth still has not had coffee
07:54:57 <andythenorth> and it’s nearly the middle of the day
07:55:17 <Alberth> /me gives andy a cup of coffee
07:58:17 <V453000> just trying to make a curved road texture from a straight road texture, isnt as simple asI thought XD
07:58:21 <Alberth> Makefiles got simplified a lot
07:58:24 <andythenorth> sunshare is really making no sense in forums
07:59:02 <andythenorth> there’s ‘not-native-English’ and there’s “putting useless stuff in the forums"
07:59:20 * andythenorth can’t think how to not be rude about it though
08:00:05 <Alberth> he just has absoloutely 0 clue about how things work
08:00:40 <V453000> andy half of the forum makes no sense, that isnt anything new :P
08:01:02 <Alberth> so he looks at it purely from the outside
08:02:19 <Alberth> which is a valid way of looking at things
08:04:12 <V453000> hm photoshop warp ftw :)
08:04:53 <Alberth> beats making pixels by hand :)
08:06:44 * andythenorth rethinks an economy
08:12:45 * andythenorth wonders if Vehicle Factory should accept petrol
08:12:51 <andythenorth> completely not realism, but eh
08:13:17 <Alberth> a little bit can be exaplained
08:14:08 <andythenorth> maybe as a boost cargo
08:14:54 <andythenorth> I am trying to make a nice set of cargo flows, but stick to an arbitrary limit on number of industries and cargos
08:14:57 <andythenorth> constraints are fun
08:15:10 <V453000> my factory accepts petrol, but that is because the cars are one use only, once the industry processes them with their limited petrol, they are demolished and thrown away ecologically, alongside with dying workers
08:15:51 <andythenorth> pop quiz: what’s better than a > 3 minute compile?
08:16:24 <andythenorth> a 1m 20s compile
08:18:54 <andythenorth> V453000: doesn’t that compile drive you fricking insane? :D
08:19:09 <andythenorth> I make way too many typos in my code for that much compile time
08:21:49 <andythenorth> ho I broke the FIRS makefile
08:21:56 <Alberth> believe me, suddenly you'll get much more careful :)
08:22:00 <andythenorth> docs are only compiled if I call ‘make docs’ target directly
08:23:39 <andythenorth> maybe docs has to be a dep for firs.grf or whatever?
08:24:22 <andythenorth> if we’re happy to edit the Makefile, yes
08:24:37 <andythenorth> AIUI, the .config was there because the Makefile was not to be touched
08:24:40 <Alberth> depends on when you want to build docs
08:25:28 <andythenorth> feel free to commit makefile changes btw :)
08:27:10 <Alberth> an alternative is to take the current Makefiles of the generic newgrf project, and use those
08:33:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: I do wonder if it would be easier to start from a better place :)
08:33:54 <andythenorth> instead of picking out old string
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08:54:31 <V453000> andythenorth: it doesnt exactly :P I have enough stuff to do while I wait for the compile
08:54:41 <V453000> and since rendering whole rawr now takes 20 hours, ... :)
08:55:07 <V453000> I just continue doing stuff when it compile, best thing
08:57:14 <andythenorth> your attention span is better than me
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09:10:12 * andythenorth needs a chemical plant
09:10:26 <andythenorth> wonder where I can find sprites for that
09:10:59 <andythenorth> also, it breaks my constraint of 17 industries :|
09:13:39 <andythenorth> chemical plant? file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/industries.html#fertiliser_plant
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09:23:22 <supermop> chemical plant is a pretty nebulous concept
09:25:26 <supermop> bits of that and the plastic plant could look a good late 20th C one
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09:29:19 <supermop> bits of machine shop with tanks/distilation columns for early 20th c
09:37:07 <andythenorth> basic economies have 18 cargos and 17 industries
09:37:18 <andythenorth> this one will have 17 cargos and 18 industries :P
09:42:18 <supermop> need to pick abar to go to
09:43:52 <supermop> my iron ore mine in the desert is surrounded by a strip of grass
09:44:54 <andythenorth> a future FIRS will solve that for you
09:45:45 <supermop> also the quarry in the desert is full of water - which seems like would be more valuable than the stone
09:46:12 <andythenorth> less likely to be solved
09:47:13 <andythenorth> still, it does seem to make the grass grow nearby, eh?
09:48:03 <andythenorth> fruit plantations suck currently
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09:59:26 * andythenorth considers Urban economy
09:59:41 <andythenorth> coffee, milk -> coffee shop -> latte
10:00:05 <andythenorth> chemicals -> spray paint -> graffiti -> art shop
10:00:28 <V453000> well to be fair, toyland has one of the most interesting cargo systems of the original industries :P
10:00:34 <andythenorth> components -> factory -> apple store -> hipster
10:00:50 * andythenorth considers a hipster economy
10:01:03 <andythenorth> except it’s not actually funny to mock hipsters, just boring and obvious :P
10:01:15 <V453000> produce as much stuff that nobody wants as you can? :D
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10:02:46 <andythenorth> so many possibilities
10:02:54 <andythenorth> so little time :P
10:03:10 * andythenorth steps away from chemical plant idea
10:03:21 <andythenorth> makes the chains too long for basic
10:04:03 <V453000> I still think the trading economy chart I made for you would do great :P
10:06:38 <V453000> can be majorly extended ofc
10:07:00 <andythenorth> V453000: I like that it has only 4 industries
10:07:11 <andythenorth> might be good for really intense wtf cargo amount games
10:07:27 <andythenorth> oh actually more than 4
10:07:44 <V453000> 4 are the processing "ports" here
10:08:06 <andythenorth> not doing it now, but maybe later
10:08:08 <V453000> you can easily add another chain, e.g. 3 primaries which go to $factory, and that $factory goes to one of the ports
10:08:23 <andythenorth> I think it’s better small
10:08:26 <V453000> just trying to show what is an example of good system
10:08:44 <V453000> well, sure it could have a parameter saying how many chains there are :P
10:08:55 <V453000> small, larger, holyshitbig
10:09:01 <andythenorth> silly parameters
10:09:01 <V453000> while still having clear system
10:09:36 <andythenorth> FIRS compile is now so much faster, I can’t spend enough time talking bollocks while I wait :(
10:10:28 <andythenorth> Vehicle Factory accepting petrol, some logical part of my brain is screaming NO NO NO
10:10:32 <andythenorth> but in game it looks ok
10:11:07 <V453000> will "YETI does it" help as a justification? :D
10:11:32 <andythenorth> might count against it actually :P
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10:14:48 <andythenorth> meh, in this economy, petrol and chemicals should just one cargo
10:14:55 <andythenorth> that is the problem
10:15:25 <andythenorth> petrol is doing nothing useful, it’s just there because the refinery produces it
10:16:38 <V453000> call it refined products?
10:18:44 <andythenorth> eh, FIRS compile doesn’t support removing a cargo in an economy for this kind of industry
10:20:36 <andythenorth> eh, that means I have bugs :(
10:21:00 <andythenorth> problem with deadlines
10:21:12 <andythenorth> abandoning refactoring in favour of making deadline
10:25:09 <andythenorth> this chain would work really well: chemicals, oil -> chemical processor -> refined products
10:25:24 <andythenorth> FIRS implements chemicals as RFPR, which is also refined products
10:25:36 <andythenorth> so label is already claimed
10:26:24 <andythenorth> also, the guano mine is a primary, but I have it producing RFRP
10:26:38 <andythenorth> primary cargo isn’t refined :P
10:28:51 <andythenorth> guano mine chemicals are NPK-ish (nitrates, phosphates, potash)
10:29:25 <andythenorth> dunno what name covers that other than ‘chemicals'
10:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no deadline.
10:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all in your mind
10:30:50 <andythenorth> eh, last week I was told to release already
10:31:03 <andythenorth> and that I was delaying unnecessarily
10:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i said release before you break everything
10:31:24 <andythenorth> oh that ship had sailed :D
10:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but you've already broken everything
10:33:59 <andythenorth> so is there a composite term covering NPK that is dug out of the ground?
10:34:05 <andythenorth> or shall I just call it Nitrates?
10:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't know what you're trying to model
10:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if i did, i don't know the english name of chemicals
10:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the "big picture"
10:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> why do you need to specialize it instead of just calling it "chemicals"?
10:36:47 <andythenorth> because chemicals -> chemical processor -> chemicals is odd
10:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then obviously a "guano mine" would produce "guano"
10:39:34 <andythenorth> this is a good conclusion
10:43:49 <b_jonas> andythenorth: would "fertilizer" be a good name?
10:44:29 <andythenorth> not for processing
10:44:38 <andythenorth> fertiliser -> refined products
10:48:15 <andythenorth> I should copout and call it a phosphate mine
10:48:23 <andythenorth> then it can be used in Canada and such also
10:51:12 <andythenorth> translators going to hate me :D
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10:55:08 <andythenorth> game already has potash
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11:02:56 <andythenorth> sounds antiquated :)
11:07:29 <andythenorth> I should probably call it Nitrates though, eh :(
11:07:38 <andythenorth> for dumbing-down reasons
11:12:21 <Alberth> I think I translated it as such already :)
11:13:22 <andythenorth> Saltpeter is more intriguing
11:13:35 <andythenorth> sounds like a Victorian novel
11:14:00 * andythenorth wonders how references like ‘Victorian’ work for non-English people
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11:28:49 <andythenorth> don’t go outside
11:31:59 <Midnight101> hes obviously just playing the snow climate
11:32:25 <andythenorth> V453000: nice lego roads you’ve made
11:38:11 <peter1138> It's cold indoors...
11:39:04 <peter1138> V453000, you can't include the one stop-line...
11:39:11 <peter1138> er... *white* not one...
11:39:33 <peter1138> Drive side is changable.
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11:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "LEFT IS RIGHT" would be terrible :p
11:52:51 <Midnight101> TTD in the temperate climate is set in the UK, where driving on the left is the correct way. for good reason
11:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> then how come the original game offered "drive on right" since the beginning?
11:54:10 <Midnight101> for the same reason it offered different currencies :P
11:54:17 <Midnight101> but still defaulted to GBP
11:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it also offered different town name sets
11:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no. it defaulted to DM :p
11:55:17 <krinn> funny: i've been told driving to left was because of military holding swords on their right and it prevent accident when they were passing by next to pedestrian
11:55:55 <Midnight101> Chris Sawyer was British, thats why :P
11:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, almost nothing in the game, except for the original vehicle names, suggests that the game is "set in the UK"
11:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and even that was gone when the obfuscated vehicle names were introduced
11:58:45 <V453000> I REMOVED THE STOP LINES ALREADY QUIT ARGUING
11:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR STOP LINES
11:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some road sets include stop signs, but they probably check the driving side with action7/9
11:59:49 <V453000> idk, but cba to do that
11:59:53 <V453000> either right or nothing :P
12:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> IT'S IN THE WIKI!! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!
12:03:19 <Midnight101> "I disagree, therefore i must be right"
12:04:02 <V453000> toyland is completely mature not just childs world
12:04:16 <frosch123> V453000: you can provide graphics for both left and right
12:04:31 <frosch123> grfs can check for roaddriving side, and select graphics
12:04:34 <Alberth> just add them both :)
12:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: somewhere inbetween LEGO and MLP?
12:04:50 <frosch123> same issue for signal side
12:05:19 <V453000> I know frosch123, Eddi said that :)
12:05:30 <V453000> MLP is utter horseshit
12:05:52 <V453000> LEGO is good stuff as andythenorth and other brick nerds prove
12:05:58 <frosch123> what? eddi said something that makes sense?
12:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> more often than not.
12:15:57 <peter1138> frosch123, he's doing a baseset though, I thought.
12:16:25 <frosch123> yes, the extra grf also needs to check signalside to provide semaphore graphics
12:16:54 <frosch123> ogfx extra checks dozen of settings to provide different graphics :p
12:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> action7/9 is static-safe, so can be used in baseset
12:28:39 <peter1138> Oh right, forgot there was a mandatory newgrf in basesets :p
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13:25:55 <andythenorth> nitrates, cargo unit
13:26:07 <andythenorth> I think they’re typically mineral powder
13:26:41 <V453000> what the fuck is that even XD
13:29:58 <V453000> cute pictures but how does that illustrate a cargo? :D
13:30:41 <frosch123> well, what's your nitrate source?
13:30:48 <frosch123> if it's a mine -> raw tons
13:30:54 <frosch123> if it's a farm -> liquid litres
13:31:48 <frosch123> anyway, i prefer the name "fertilizer"
13:31:58 <frosch123> that's how railroad tycoon called it
13:35:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: so what other nmlc speed ups do you have in your back pocket? o_O
13:38:00 <frosch123> 1) reading of sprite cache files, actually doing it just now
13:38:09 <frosch123> 2) speed up of "tile compression" by factor 2
13:38:17 <frosch123> 3) multi-threaded encoding
13:38:44 <frosch123> 4) parser-cache, but likely not worth it in bigger picture
13:39:29 <frosch123> other stuff is designed, but not even experimentally coded
13:40:03 <V453000> me is looking forward
13:42:26 <andythenorth> < 1 min FIRS, I’d be very happy
13:43:40 <frosch123> well, all grfs are different :p most near-future benefits are for grfs with big and many real sprites
13:43:53 <frosch123> grfs with more code than sprites have to wait :)
13:44:27 <andythenorth> I can improve the FIRS code to get a 20s compile of a subset of industries
13:44:37 <andythenorth> between that, and a 1 min full-grf compile, it’s good
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14:03:14 <deniz1a> why is it beneficial to transport your cargo far away than to bring it to the closest destination?
14:03:37 <deniz1a> that's counterintuitive, idn't it?
14:04:28 <deniz1a> let's say you have a train full of coal ready to go and you have two power stations linked with tracks
14:04:36 <frosch123> no, your car is also more efficient on long routes
14:04:47 <michi_cc> Only if you believe you are buying and selling cargo, but your aren't. You're payed for the transport, not the goods.
14:05:07 <frosch123> you are paid for average cargo speed
14:05:11 <deniz1a> you should bring it to the closer one and get more profit
14:05:27 <frosch123> and the average speed is better on longer routes, since loading has less impact
14:05:48 <deniz1a> but why would the seller of that cargo pay you more to transport it farther away than is necessary*
14:06:05 <frosch123> because they ordered it
14:06:20 <frosch123> as michi said, they do not buy the coal from you
14:06:31 <deniz1a> but the cargo has no specific destination? it just has to be dumped at a power station, doesnt matter which one
14:06:55 <deniz1a> i know but the seller of the coal pays you for transport
14:07:17 <frosch123> well, play with cargo distribution/destinattions then
14:07:24 <frosch123> then you won't get anything to transport
14:07:37 <deniz1a> then each cargo has a specific destination?
14:08:09 <frosch123> there are patches where you get only 1% of cargo to transport, if your network does not offer enough/sutiable connections
14:08:10 <Midnight101> denizla, if you can only transport your goods to a place, you have to sell your goods to that place
14:09:17 <deniz1a> but it is beneficial to bring your cargo as far as possible once you have it, isn't it?
14:09:53 <frosch123> your task is to transport cargo as fast as possible
14:10:09 <frosch123> "fast" as in "distance per time"
14:10:24 <deniz1a> ok but let's say you have the same train
14:10:40 <deniz1a> one time you bring the same cargo to a close destination and then to a far away one
14:11:35 <frosch123> if loading is instant, then both trains get about the same
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14:12:07 <frosch123> "same" as in "same per year"
14:12:25 <frosch123> of course the far-distance one makes more per trip, but the short-distance one makes more trips per year
14:12:37 <Midnight101> actually you get paid a specific amount per 20 squares covered
14:12:51 <Midnight101> this amount decreases over time from loading to unloading\
14:15:07 <Midnight101> and different goods are worth more depending on how long you take to transport them
14:15:31 <deniz1a> ok. is there a way to make each cargo have a specific destination?
14:15:50 <deniz1a> so you have to take it to a specific power station for example and not just any one
14:16:07 <frosch123> search for "cargo destinations"
14:16:17 <frosch123> you will find some ancient forum topics
14:16:29 <frosch123> don't confuse it with "cargo distribution" though
14:17:36 <Midnight101> denizla, you could make it your own personal challenge to deliver only to the closest receiving potential destination
14:34:09 <deniz1a> can you see how long a train took to deliver its last cargo? or the average delivery time?
14:34:43 <deniz1a> average loading time would also be nice
14:39:09 <frosch123> if you have 1.5 then cargodist will automatically record a timetable
14:41:13 <deniz1a> oh ok. i'll try that. is it stable?
14:45:06 <deniz1a> where can I find the changelog for 1.5 beta?
14:45:28 <frosch123> there is a link in the newspost
14:45:32 <frosch123> or you can look on the wiki
14:49:22 <psusi> so I have set up a two track one way loop with two trains circling to transport coal from the mine to a power plant... I'm constantly picking up all of the coal at the station, but the mine complains that I'm only transporting 48% of its output and its max output drops.. wtf?
14:49:33 <psusi> how am I supposed to transport all of their output if they won't give it to me?
14:49:56 <deniz1a> yeah it was right on the main page
14:54:04 <psusi> wait, so the station loses rating if the trains pull in too fast?
14:56:14 <andythenorth> just use FIRS instead
14:56:20 <andythenorth> it has a stupid 100% station rating option
14:56:24 <andythenorth> problem goes away
14:58:35 <psusi> I'm confused... it looks like it isn't possible to get more than 67% station rating, at least if you don't count the temporary boost from advertising
14:58:52 <frosch123> you need a faster engine
14:59:16 <frosch123> you get 100% if you build a statue and your trani does 200 km/h, and there is always a train loading
15:00:05 <frosch123> 67% is the normal rating if you have no statue
15:00:08 <andythenorth> and build a station
15:00:18 <psusi> ahh... and how much do you need to take the full output of the industry?
15:01:37 <frosch123> you don't get 100% in early game without cheating :)
15:01:49 <psusi> so... early in the game, before you get the high speed fancy trains... it's impossible to grow an industry without constantly doing advertising campeigns?
15:02:20 <frosch123> advertising does not work particulary well for industries
15:02:32 <frosch123> it only affects stations near the town center, so usually not industries
15:02:41 <andythenorth> eh, why am I allocating IDs :P
15:02:42 <psusi> well it seems to be the only way to boost the station rating other than building a statue
15:02:48 <andythenorth> code should manage IDs for me
15:02:51 <andythenorth> that has to change
15:03:17 <andythenorth> I could just let nml do it?
15:03:22 <andythenorth> is nml trustworthy?
15:03:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: savegame compatibility?
15:03:25 <psusi> well yea, so if the industry is far from a town center, then it is impossible to get the station rating high enough to transport enough cargo to make the industry grow? that seems fscked up
15:03:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: if yuo assign them automatically, they change when reordering code
15:03:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: yeah. But it’s flawed thinking by me :) If an industry or cargo is added/changed/removed, assume savgame is broken
15:04:17 <andythenorth> my assumption was that nml assigns them on something like parse order
15:04:44 <frosch123> i think it does on parse order
15:04:59 <andythenorth> I think I might manage my own locally
15:05:08 <frosch123> but cargos are tricky in any case, due to pax/mail magic
15:05:23 <andythenorth> assuming python imports can be trusted to be deteministic for any given order, I can maintain order as much as I need
15:05:29 <andythenorth> dunno if that holds though
15:05:58 <andythenorth> ah actually nml has no idea about FIRS economies, so I’ll manage IDs in any case
15:06:07 <frosch123> manually assigned ids also make it easier for add-on grfs :)
15:06:21 <andythenorth> yeah, they are going to have a sad time :)
15:06:25 <frosch123> and for try-hard game scripts
15:06:34 <andythenorth> IDs are already overlapping
15:06:57 <andythenorth> unless the GS also checks economy parameter, and maintains a mapping, it’s out of luck :)
15:07:18 <frosch123> there are gs with 32 settings to configure behaviour for cargo 0 to 31
15:07:30 <frosch123> they then refer to the industry readme to figure out what ids are which
15:08:01 <andythenorth> bah, I’ve broken the online docs
15:08:17 <andythenorth> Jenkins should be whining at me
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15:18:24 * andythenorth wonders about an industry that can build on land or at sea
15:18:46 <andythenorth> can’t remember if build on water is an XOR or just a flag permitting
15:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> just have different layouts?
15:19:04 <V453000> === quarry/dredging site? :D
15:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "build on water" is per industrytile, not per industry
15:19:50 <andythenorth> V453000: you think that should just be one type?
15:20:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
15:30:43 <andythenorth> not all the Dutch
15:32:33 <andythenorth> Alberth: got any uncommitted changes to FIRS makefile? o_O
15:33:25 <Alberth> removing the makefile.config didn't look like a good idea any more
15:33:41 <Alberth> and I am not sure how to move on
15:34:16 <planetmaker> what's your issue with the Makefile?
15:34:47 <planetmaker> or the aim of changes?
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15:35:13 <andythenorth> (1) is the FIRS makefile in a state you’d consider good, or is it aging? (2) making some changes to fix stupid I have done
15:35:51 <planetmaker> possibly not 100% up to date, but as long as it does its job it's good enough. So: what needs fixing?
15:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> those are both unhelpful answers
15:37:16 <andythenorth> if I just state what I’m trying to do, we might get bogged down in that before establishing whether it’s wise :)
15:37:49 <andythenorth> my current ‘problem’ is that I need to make docs build, for which there is code I have written, and code that exists, and the two need refactoring to be one
15:38:28 <planetmaker> you mean docs are not properly built?
15:38:33 <andythenorth> also I am trying to do this without editing Makefile because my understanding is I should never touch Makefile, but that might be bogus
15:38:48 <andythenorth> make doc is the pre-existing target in makefile
15:39:04 <andythenorth> that doesn’t build my docs
15:39:19 <andythenorth> to make it build my docs I can probably do it via Makefile.in
15:39:26 <andythenorth> or Makefile.config
15:39:29 <andythenorth> but I’m not sure
15:39:35 <planetmaker> depends a bit on how old the Makefile is :D
15:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> makefile.config should be for everybody's local checkout, makefile.in (or _in) for the project's special code
15:41:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, Makefile.local for local config. Makefile.config for the project-specific stuff when using the standard NewGRF Makefile
15:42:09 <planetmaker> Makefile.in to make amendments to the rules
15:42:25 <andythenorth> and is Makefile.in append or replace for existing rules?
15:42:35 <Alberth> you know autotools use *.in as source for *, right?
15:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know who came up with .in
15:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it always felt out of place
15:43:15 <andythenorth> I’ve seen it used in projects 100% unrelated to ours :)
15:43:21 <andythenorth> for exact same purpose
15:43:31 <Alberth> yes, all autotools projects :p
15:44:27 <Alberth> and given that autotools is kind of standard at Unix, that's a lot of projects
15:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, *.in as input for * is also used in OpenTTD, but the Makefile.in from the makefile never had that semantics
15:45:29 <planetmaker> the Makefile is my crime ;)
15:46:07 <planetmaker> but yes, I might have spotted it other places and gone from there
15:46:36 <planetmaker> anyhow: Makefile.in can be used as both. But Makefile rules usually works as replacement
15:46:41 <Alberth> for newgrf projects having a Makefile is probably a lot better than having to deal with autotools
15:47:01 <planetmaker> amend is difficult as you then cannot control the order of execution of the parts which get amended which usually is very troublesome
15:47:58 <andythenorth> in this case I need replace
15:48:17 <andythenorth> the rules for building docs make assumptions that hold elsewhere, but not in FIRS
15:49:06 <andythenorth> I wasn’t sure how that would work, so I have dumped a ‘docs’ target into Makefile.in
15:49:07 <psusi> sigh... so I had a train bring passengers up to a station that doesn't accept them and forced them to unload... planning on linking a bus station to transfer them to... the train dropped them off and picked them right back up to return them to their point of origin
15:49:15 <andythenorth> rather than the standard ‘doc'
15:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> psusi: you should use "transfer and no loading"
15:50:46 <psusi> but then won't it refuse to pick up passengers heading the other way?
15:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that won't work
15:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want that to work, you need to enable cargo distribution
15:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so people actually have a sense of where they want to go
15:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a setting, if you use 1.4 or newer
15:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> psusi: cargodist makes people have an opinion on where they want to go, rather than just getting off at the next station. so they will stay in the train for more than one station, or use multiple trains/busses to get to their destination
15:55:07 <andythenorth> somewhat of an opinion
15:55:38 * andythenorth wonders when next hop is actually calculated
15:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afaik, on unloading, the cargo packet will get a next hop
15:57:13 <andythenorth> mostly I find it helps in a game to not think how cdist works, but rather how it behaves
15:57:50 <andythenorth> trying to manage it is fruitless, but building more vehicles is easy
15:58:25 <andythenorth> also accept that pax stations will never clear
16:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just like in real life. building more roads will not lead to less traffic jam. just to more traffic
16:01:29 <andythenorth> ha ha Iron Horse gives you hopper cars for Beans
16:01:34 * andythenorth testing new stuff
16:03:22 <andythenorth> ho, Sugar Refinery processes to produces more output than amount input
16:03:31 <andythenorth> shall I leave that bug as a feature? o_O
16:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you told it beans were bulk...
16:21:20 <andythenorth> herp, maybe no chemicals from sugar refinery in this economy
16:21:32 <andythenorth> adding more string to the production code, meh
16:44:58 <andythenorth> oh a free industry slot
17:11:28 <andythenorth> so can someone update newgrf wiki cargo labels page for me? Needs “BEAN” and “NITR” adding
17:11:44 <andythenorth> BEAN is Beans, NITR is Nitrate
17:12:53 <andythenorth> I hardened my passwords for tt-forums last year, does the wiki use an auth provider, or does it copy hashes?
17:13:06 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
17:19:45 * Eddi|zuHause vaguely remembers something about LDAP
17:20:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: what cargo classes?
17:21:30 <andythenorth> if anyone wants to chip in with suggestions for classes, now is the time
17:22:31 <andythenorth> nitrates: covered?
17:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> covered,powdered
17:23:27 <Eddi|zuHause> beans: piece,bulk
17:23:52 <frosch123> 10k pieces of beans
17:25:50 <frosch123> don't see how piece+bulk makes sense, i don't see any of the existing cargos do that
17:25:57 <frosch123> though there are some with +liquid
17:26:25 <frosch123> oh, FERT and FIRC are
17:27:16 <andythenorth> rationale for adding piece is beans in vans
17:28:05 <andythenorth> fruit is piece, because crates
17:28:26 <andythenorth> anyway frosch123 thanks :)
17:29:39 <frosch123> i think we didn't have a cargo class discusssion for about a year :p
17:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the proof: openttd is dieing
17:30:44 <andythenorth> or we solved it :(
17:30:51 <andythenorth> sometimes we do that
17:33:48 <frosch123> well, we passed the tipping point of ttd
17:34:17 <frosch123> maybe already the tipping point of ttdp?
17:34:19 <andythenorth> searching for nitrate trucks, turns out nitrates are explosive
17:34:58 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The Soham disaster proved that, didn't it?
17:35:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think we’re past a dev tipping point
17:35:39 <andythenorth> but by no means a player tipping point
17:35:53 <andythenorth> I think dev tipping point is probably ~2 years back
17:36:30 <andythenorth> all the big interesting problems are gone
17:36:40 <andythenorth> and we lost a bunch of people to jobs and real life
17:37:41 <andythenorth> T*rkhen, yex*, and such
17:39:52 <andythenorth> but eh, FIRS Ain’t Dead, it turns out
17:39:57 <andythenorth> mostly because Busy Bee
17:49:18 <frosch123> hmm, someone knows the exact release date of ttd?
17:49:28 <frosch123> it gets 20 somewhen this year
17:50:43 <andythenorth> I can’t find a date on google
17:51:53 <frosch123> i assume noone has an hold sales receipt? :p
17:55:12 <frosch123> the listed features are hillarious :)
17:55:25 <frosch123> "Company buy outs" <- how is that important?
17:57:12 <andythenorth> Feature, not Benefit :)
18:00:45 <frosch123> anyway, ottd is only 11, ttdp was 12 when it was solid dead, so we have 1 year left to die :)
18:01:13 <andythenorth> better get working on it :P
18:01:19 <frosch123> ttdp was 8 when it effectively died, no idea what ottd did in 2012
18:01:49 <andythenorth> cba to look in svn logs
18:01:53 <frosch123> i think 2012 was grf8 and game scripts, right? so one of the best?
18:02:06 <andythenorth> "GS will be the death of ottd"
18:02:37 <andythenorth> no ttdp, no competition
18:02:50 <andythenorth> no competition, no impetus to compete? o_O
18:04:27 <andythenorth> also, fewer commits, less discussion
18:04:37 <andythenorth> less discussion, less inspiration to patch
18:04:44 <andythenorth> and less kudos for those who patch
18:06:31 <andythenorth> but eh, we also have a lot of other tools and ecosystem, and that’s not dying yet
18:07:45 <Rubidium> I reckon the major problem is that OpenTTD is currently hindered enormously by choices made long ago that can't be changed without major effects
18:08:01 <Rubidium> but... then those choices make it OpenTTD
18:08:22 <andythenorth> I don’t feel hindered particularly
18:09:05 <frosch123> vehicle lengths on diagonals?
18:09:28 <V453000> vehicle can only move by 1/16th of a tile at a time :(
18:09:33 <NGC3982> Does anyone really feel the game has major problems? The consensus among me and my non-developer friends is that the game is one of the most well worked trough.
18:09:34 <Rubidium> vehicle clipping due to completely wrong bounding boxes
18:10:03 <andythenorth> the mess around diagonals makes me no longer want to draw vehicles
18:10:09 <Wolf01> no map rotation and fully termaformable terrain...
18:10:11 <andythenorth> now I know that whatever I do is wrong :|
18:10:29 <andythenorth> I ask how long a \ view should be and the answers suck
18:10:30 <V453000> andythenorth: render them :>
18:10:39 <andythenorth> V453000: that’s not a solution
18:10:57 <V453000> once the openttd feature is fixed, you can re-render just with changing one value
18:11:08 <andythenorth> ok good argument
18:11:11 <andythenorth> but rendering sucks
18:11:25 <V453000> full class of wagons 3 days vs 3 weeks :P ding
18:11:44 <andythenorth> yeah but I have to re-learn CGI
18:11:49 <andythenorth> I am over 30, I can’t learn anything
18:12:02 <V453000> not like it is that complicated
18:12:11 <andythenorth> also, do you really think I could put up with the compile times?
18:12:16 <V453000> you dont really need anything super elaborate to make openttd stuff
18:12:47 <Rubidium> furthermore many peculiarities w.r.t. NewGRFs and multiplayer
18:13:29 <V453000> I think with increasing amount of 32bpp/EZ newGRFs it will come more clear that the sprites are hell in filesize for such zooms etc
18:13:52 <V453000> just my 3 newGRFs will have like 500MB soon
18:13:58 <V453000> including RAWR as a newgrf for now
18:14:26 <andythenorth> I do wonder if 32bpp is what will kill ottd
18:14:47 <NGC3982> I notice that all players connected to my servers are at the moment spectators. min_active_clients is 1. Is pause-on-spectate configurable?
18:14:57 <Rubidium> oh... palette animation is such a fun feature as well ;)
18:15:02 <andythenorth> I think it will end up pushing the pixel art to the same place TTDP has gone
18:15:09 <andythenorth> increasingly marginalised
18:15:14 <andythenorth> the people doing it will be pushed out
18:15:16 <V453000> I dont think so andythenorth, at all
18:15:24 <andythenorth> I do, it’s a people thing, not an art thing
18:15:30 <V453000> 1. 3D just requires a lot of experience and effort to even get it started
18:15:46 <V453000> 2. pixel drawing is simple for everybody, even if it looks bad, it has results
18:15:57 <V453000> 3. there is a lot of people who prefer the pixely look
18:16:06 <andythenorth> yeah, but pixels will be seen as wrong and old-fashioned
18:16:16 <andythenorth> and those doing it will be seen as weird and cranky
18:16:19 <V453000> oldfashioned yes but that does not mean wrong
18:16:27 <andythenorth> a bit like we see some of the people who are associated mostly with TTDP
18:16:29 <V453000> oldfashioned can be nice
18:16:40 <NGC3982> Pixels seems very hip at the moment?
18:16:44 <V453000> I think the only question is what is done better, the pure quality
18:16:47 <andythenorth> nobody will bother drawing bad pixels, because they’re not rendering
18:16:54 <V453000> if pixel art is done well, then it will be great
18:17:00 <andythenorth> yeah but nobody will
18:17:01 <V453000> if 3D is done very well, then it will be used
18:17:17 <V453000> they will, you have whole plethora of bad pixel art
18:17:22 <andythenorth> this is a prediction, not an argument :)
18:17:30 <andythenorth> we could put €25 on it
18:17:36 <andythenorth> I’d give it 7 years
18:17:57 <V453000> so what exactly do you say? :D
18:18:08 <V453000> OpenTTD will die in 7 years with 32bpp on its tombstone? :P
18:18:11 <frosch123> V453000: andy is correct. the amount of people on reddit (i.e. the younger ones) who prefer zbase just because it has zoom-in is hillarious
18:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have a feeling computers get slower over time...
18:18:24 <andythenorth> (1) we’ll end roughly where simutrans is, with a mess of paks
18:18:30 <andythenorth> and no coherent art
18:18:48 <andythenorth> (2) nobody will want to do pixels, but very few people will be able to work with rendered art well
18:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i started this laptop after half a year, and it takes half an hour to boot, and i'm not even done clicking through a flash player update
18:18:56 <V453000> andy that is where we are already and where we have been ever since opengfx started to exist
18:19:08 <andythenorth> (3) we’ll be here in 7 years hoping Bad Brett ships something, and saves the game
18:19:26 <V453000> I dont think BB will release stuff in the next 7 years
18:19:37 <andythenorth> we’ll increasingly hope he does
18:19:50 <andythenorth> because it’s the last way out of what will seem a mess
18:19:51 <Rubidium> will P1SIM be done by then?
18:20:00 <V453000> perhaps I will stop being bad at 3D and save it instead :P
18:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> will DBSet 0.9 be done by then?
18:20:19 <andythenorth> if you read the German forums enough
18:20:22 <V453000> not on bananas though
18:20:35 <andythenorth> there will be a new version of FIRS by then as well
18:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ... also, there is a windows update running every time i start the computer, but it always fails, and starts again next time...
18:21:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: make me wonders whether Microsoft gets slower over time...
18:22:00 <frosch123> good point, does ms still exist in 7 years?
18:22:15 <Rubidium> ... I remember the good old days that you would get 400 kBps downloads from Microsoft, now you're happy when they reach 300 kBps
18:22:19 <V453000> am going to confirm andythenorths predictions with a 8,3% beer =D
18:22:50 <frosch123> V453000: 8.3% beer, 91.7% water? bah :p
18:23:03 <andythenorth> wine is stronger
18:23:28 <andythenorth> ms exists in 7 years :P
18:23:37 <Rubidium> frosch123: what about nitrogen instead of water?
18:23:40 <andythenorth> they probably have maintenance contracts on IE 7 for that long :P
18:23:49 <Rubidium> makes it pretty foamy I'd reckon
18:23:52 * andythenorth waits for IE 7 to get out of his life
18:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you're breathing 70% nitrogen. does nothing at all.
18:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you're rising from large depths)
18:25:08 <andythenorth> we can’t please the reddit crowd
18:25:14 <andythenorth> nor can we please the foamers
18:25:26 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but 8.3% beer + 91.7% nitrogen properly mixed in a (beer) glass will be quite foamy, wouldn't it be?
18:25:48 <andythenorth> but we do please my 5 year old
18:26:07 <andythenorth> who is also right now sitting playing Worms on iPad, which is what? 15 years old? 20?
18:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'd rather say you get a bottom half 8.3% alcohol and a top half 91.7% nitrogen rather quickly
18:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the ipad or the kid? :p
18:27:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: the best one (worms 2) is from 1997
18:27:38 <andythenorth> this is worms armageddon
18:27:47 <andythenorth> looks roughly like the one I remember
18:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone have a clue how i get this broken update out of my system?
18:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i played a bit of worms 3D on some lan partys
18:29:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: And we're all here on IRC, which is older than the Web, and still far better than all other messaging 'apps' LD
18:29:20 <andythenorth> snapshot all the things, in virtualbox
18:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> this laptop doesn't do virtualization
18:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> this runs windows vista, i think.
18:33:23 * andythenorth should have put potash into Arctic Basic, not Iron Ore
18:33:32 <andythenorth> still, could go back and forth forever on this eh?
18:35:09 <frosch123> ah, i see, armageddon fixed the mortar cheat, but also removed all the cusomisation options
18:35:26 <andythenorth> dunno what this iOS version does
18:35:30 <andythenorth> quite playable though
18:35:44 <andythenorth> apart from achingly slow load times, nothing I’d much change
18:35:51 <andythenorth> dunno why it’s *so* slow
18:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so according to the logs, the constantly failing update is "Microsoft .NET Framework 4.5.1 for Windows Vista (KB2858725)"
18:36:31 <andythenorth> is there some manifest where you can delete that entry?H
18:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about how windows works anymore...
18:40:37 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that one sounds vaguely familiar to me
18:41:15 <Rubidium> though on Windows 7... but I have no idea how I actually fixed the issue
18:42:22 <Rubidium> it definitely took a lot of time to figure out, but was mostly done by google + trying everything that seems reasonable
18:42:43 <Rubidium> i.e. everything that doesn't require installing something that isn't made by Microsoft
18:44:29 <Samu> i was on the wrong channel
18:52:07 <michi_cc> Google the error number (80....) which you should get?
18:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no error number
18:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it just takes forever
18:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> uses lots of memory
18:59:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I remember that booting went much faster without internet connectivity (though not 100% sure it was with the same patch)
19:02:52 *** deniz1a has joined #openttd
19:03:57 <Progman> deniz1a: thats right, because the whole block is occupied by trains in the station
19:04:48 <Progman> its a "huge" junction, which even reach in the station, and when there is a train in it its blocked
19:04:59 <deniz1a> but it doesnt do that on the other station where it's the same
19:05:02 <Progman> not by the path signal, but by the normal signals
19:05:24 <Progman> then the other station is designed differently
19:06:23 <Progman> please show a screenshot of that other station
19:10:21 <planetmaker> deniz1a, yes, the block is then governed by the *block* signal on the return track
19:10:39 <planetmaker> use a path signal there, too, and you'll be fine
19:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: that's green because there are no trains in the station
19:10:40 <Progman> put a train in the station and the signal gets red
19:11:22 <planetmaker> or simply only use path signals
19:11:32 <deniz1a> but why is the station part of that signal block?
19:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: because "block" is anything that is between two signals
19:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> deniz1a: even if a train cannot go that way
19:12:14 <deniz1a> yeah you're right when the train leaves the station light turns green
19:12:39 <deniz1a> so a block is defined by the position on the map and not by the track layout?
19:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> any connected set of tracks counts as a block
19:15:14 <andythenorth> how much food for 8t of beans?
19:15:17 <michi_cc> Trains might not be able to switch tracks on a diagonal X, but they can still crash into each other, which is why connected does not mean "can move from A to B".
19:17:02 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd
19:17:45 <planetmaker> 6/8 production rate sounds alright, I think
19:18:18 <andythenorth> yeah, matches existing similar industries
19:19:45 <planetmaker> may I be so lazy to ask where nitrate and beans come from and go to?
19:28:06 <andythenorth> if I hadn’t broken the makefile, I’d reward your laziness with a link to the docs
19:28:24 <andythenorth> Nitrate Mine -> Nitrates -> Chemical Works
19:28:41 <andythenorth> Arable Farms -> Beans -> Food Processing Plant
19:37:34 <andythenorth> it’s so much more fun making 4 smaller economies than 1 giant one :P
19:39:42 <planetmaker> would I have permission to mess with makefile?
19:40:20 <andythenorth> I might want to read the diff, for learning
19:40:29 <planetmaker> he... make: *** No rule to make target `graphics_sources/aluminium', needed by `firs.nml'. Stop.
19:41:47 <planetmaker> ok, so the update to makefile broke that :P
19:41:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ho, I don’t have that :)
19:44:22 <V453000> making some dirt roadz now :P
19:45:13 <andythenorth> for toyland, you need slot car track?
19:48:46 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd
19:48:54 <Samu> on that screenshot, the train coming out of the station is occupying the other lane
19:49:35 <frosch123> who knows, noone can see tracks on maglev
19:49:45 <frosch123> maybe a piece is missing
19:49:54 <Samu> it's not missing anything
19:50:10 <Samu> it is forcing train 1 to wait :(
19:52:48 <andythenorth> shame about maglev tracks
19:53:00 <andythenorth> I would provide maglev if there were nice track sprites
19:53:22 <Samu> ok, let me downgrade to monorail
19:55:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I understand that you want the html docs rendered. Do you want them in the normal bundle, too, which is distributed? Or does it suffice when CF builds and publishes them?
19:55:31 <planetmaker> (the latter is easier)
19:56:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: they are not currently shipped in the .tar, no need to change that. They’re 2MB
19:56:15 <andythenorth> and they can be found online anyway
19:56:40 <Samu> monorail'ed that place temporarily for the screenshot
19:57:48 <andythenorth> I think FIRS release is closer
19:57:54 <andythenorth> if anyone plans translating, now would be good
19:58:06 <andythenorth> won’t get picked up until tomorrow, and I might be done with the grf by then :)
19:58:49 <andythenorth> I’ve pushed all the string changes that I’m planning
19:58:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, docs/*.txt are meaningful for the shipped bundle nevertheless, yes?
19:59:12 <planetmaker> (license/changelog/readme)
19:59:32 <andythenorth> currently not shipping, but should be included
19:59:55 <andythenorth> I think they’re only recently excluded by me poking at makefile
19:59:56 <Alberth> Samu: apparently it prefers to go straight rather than go into a corner
20:01:03 <Alberth> random guess, the path finder attaches less costs to straight paths, as it allows mono trains to go faster
20:01:55 <Alberth> I don't see why it's a problem, it rarely happens that trains meet this way
20:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause> man, i should probably just trash this laptop and install a new windows. but i don't have any installation CDs. or license keys..
20:02:24 <Samu> would it not do that with rail?
20:02:28 <Alberth> I never play either of these :)
20:02:45 <Alberth> no idea, I don't care about such things
20:02:57 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: wow, a laptop without a windows license in the bottom? must be a mac.
20:03:07 <Alberth> breakdowns and servicing has a much bigger impact than this waiting
20:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it does. but that's a really old one...
20:03:50 <planetmaker> pull, andy. I had to rebase my makefile change twice within 30 seconds ;)
20:03:59 <andythenorth> someone donate Eddi a windows license
20:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it's a "home", but i'd rather have a "professional"
20:05:24 <Samu> there's windows 10 preview available
20:05:36 <Samu> for free if u sign up to whatever microsoft wants
20:06:12 <__ln__> you don't need an account to either download it or use it
20:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i'm surely going to install an experimental windows beta on a work laptop
20:06:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: afk for 10 mins
20:06:38 <Samu> oh then i don't think you can find a free windows
20:06:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, can you confirm that it now does what it's supposed to do? ok :)
20:07:40 <glx> __ln__: many recent laptop don't have the license in the bottom, it's stored somewhere inside the hardware
20:08:20 <planetmaker> it worked for me, but meh... one never knows :)
20:12:53 <Samu> create an account, download :p
20:15:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth, is there still somewhere readme / license / changelog in the repo? Or generated?
20:15:57 <planetmaker> I fell over purge not deleting actively ignored files
20:16:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: (back) all docs are templates in src/docs_templates
20:17:54 <planetmaker> thus my diff is somewhat wrong, but worked locally on a not totally virgin checkout
20:18:06 <andythenorth> yeah, I think that’s my finding here
20:18:49 <Samu> Product key: NKJFK-GPHP7-G8C3J-P6JXR-HQRJR
20:19:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, but there's no txt files, just .pt files
20:19:15 <frosch123> Samu: in case you wondered, noone here is interested in windows
20:19:40 <Samu> Eddi|zuHause: wanted windows
20:19:50 <andythenorth> there is one, compiling_firs.txt, but I think it’s an orphan
20:20:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are you trying to find an appropriate target, or the deps?
20:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: but i also said i won't use windows 10
20:20:28 <Wolf01> frosch123, I am, but since the retail version will be drastically different from the technical preview, I won't waste my time :)
20:20:31 <Samu> that's the only free windows I know of
20:21:24 <andythenorth> can you even buy old Windows any more?
20:21:49 <Wolf01> if stores sell it, why not?
20:22:59 <Wolf01> also, seem they removed the three strike activation limit for XP, so it's nice to test it on VMs
20:31:40 <planetmaker> so... another commit. Let's see how that works :)
20:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually they only sell the newest windows (8.1 at this time), but the license includes the right to downgrade
20:35:05 <frosch123> really? who included the right to downgrade? :o
20:36:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the correct target for just docs is now html_docs?
20:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, at least in the professional line
20:36:56 <andythenorth> for people who run a massive fleet, and need to keep buying XP licenses
20:37:03 <frosch123> ah, yeah, makes sense for professional line
20:37:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, html_docs
20:37:30 <andythenorth> ok that does exactly what I expect
20:37:30 <planetmaker> it needs some different name from doc
20:37:37 <planetmaker> and doc / docs is too similar for my liking
20:37:39 <frosch123> well, i keep on wondering whether win10 will be the death for ms. i just do not see that working in a professional environment
20:37:50 <andythenorth> ‘make doc’ seems to build whole grf
20:38:03 <planetmaker> as docs depend on the grf
20:38:21 <planetmaker> that's default. Not necessarily sane. But allows to include the md5sum
20:38:32 <andythenorth> we’ll leave that then :)
20:47:17 <andythenorth> I assume opengfx, but not sure
20:47:35 <planetmaker> no, I do not know them at all
20:49:31 <planetmaker> seems I seldomly dig for diamonds :P
20:49:55 <V453000> but they are very similar at least
20:52:30 <planetmaker> yup, very much so. Thanks, too :)
20:54:47 <andythenorth> V453000: so can you render me a Nitrate Mine? o_O
20:55:16 <V453000> I have no idea how should that look
20:55:39 <V453000> but eventually, perhaps :P though I dont like the idea of being communitys pet 3D monkey :P
20:55:51 <V453000> for You it is worth considering :p
20:56:05 <V453000> but wtf will you do with 1 rendered industry? :D
20:56:17 <andythenorth> paint pixels over all of it
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20:56:25 <andythenorth> tbh, I can use the one that Dan has done
20:56:32 <andythenorth> but I have to fix those rocks
20:57:07 <planetmaker> err-doesn't-fit-style?
20:57:39 <andythenorth> nothing like that in original TTD base set
20:58:29 <andythenorth> needs some thought
20:59:37 <andythenorth> also the mockup includes grass
20:59:43 <andythenorth> which is inside the industry
20:59:49 <andythenorth> base set conflicts :)
21:11:58 <frosch123> V453000: you should make sure that andy has to use whatever you draw, and then draw a yeti shitting nitrate
21:13:45 <andythenorth> maybe just rock base
21:14:07 <andythenorth> possibly I should do land version first, easier
21:14:10 <andythenorth> then I can release this
21:26:26 <andythenorth> Supercheese: it’s done, barring mistakes
21:31:58 <andythenorth> building industries at sea, which provide an island
21:32:08 <andythenorth> fund industry, new island appears
21:35:57 <Supercheese> sounds neat to me
21:36:05 <Supercheese> new Tourist Center
21:36:13 <andythenorth> this is a mine :P
21:36:17 <Supercheese> provide plenty of pax, alcohol, and food
21:36:46 <Supercheese> It would even have the helipad and dock built in eh
21:37:08 <planetmaker> German translation updated
21:37:24 <Supercheese> I still have to figure out how they retrotranslate "Nitrate" back to Latin
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21:39:48 <Supercheese> Well, the dictionary says "Nitrum" for e.g. potash
21:39:55 <Supercheese> is that appropriate here?
21:41:23 <andythenorth> try looking up saltpetre or saltpeter
21:42:08 <Supercheese> Well, that would probably just be directly "Sal Petrae"
21:43:01 <Supercheese> Probably use Nitrum
21:43:10 <planetmaker> my dict says nitrates: nitratus, -i
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21:45:07 <Supercheese> Is this specifically for the extracts from the Guano mine, I haven't checked latest push builds yet
21:47:40 <Supercheese> oh Guano mine has disappeared
21:56:51 <andythenorth> Nitrate Mine now
21:57:05 <andythenorth> less overall work :)
22:04:06 <andythenorth> maybe I can coerce this industry to build on small islands
22:04:12 <andythenorth> harbour industries do it
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22:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just remember that the more restrictive the locations are, the less likely the game will actually find a location
22:15:05 <andythenorth> if I provide alternative layouts, some for islands and some for mainland
22:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "That train looks quite horsey" <- irony :p
22:15:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and they say Germans aren’t funny :o
22:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> only people who are not funny say that
22:15:46 <andythenorth> that might be irc comment of the year so far :)
22:40:36 <Supercheese> Why does FIRS have its own STR_CARGO_*_FRUITS strings, rather than using OTTD default Fruit strings?
22:40:49 <Supercheese> they seem to be identical
22:41:03 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins
22:41:17 <andythenorth> was Fruit & Vegetables
22:41:23 <andythenorth> then the veg was dropped
22:41:26 <andythenorth> could be changed tbh
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22:43:54 <Supercheese> Odd that the vehicle factory outputs crates. Must ship their vehicles disassembled ;)
22:45:10 <glx> maybe they are assembled and put in big boxes
22:46:03 <Supercheese> although that seems like it could have been a publicity stunt
22:46:25 <Supercheese> anyway, not a problem
22:46:29 <andythenorth> cars are shipped in ISO containers sometimes, but yeah
22:46:35 <andythenorth> thing is that it’s goods
22:48:23 <Supercheese> Not complaining, just had a funny image of a fully assembled tractor but then, "wellp, gotta break it down for shippinng now"
22:50:31 <Supercheese> also, axels, axels everywhere
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