IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-11-16
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01:37:27 <straightsilver> I want to join the vanilla server but all the copoerate slots are full :(
01:38:15 <straightsilver> newgrf is full also
02:25:21 <mordant> straightsilver: Yeah, lately it seems there needs to be a second vanilla server.
02:49:21 <straightsilver> yeah I would love to play me some vanilla
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03:16:10 <mordant> Is there a way to clear deleted station's labels?
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04:03:48 <Supercheese> mordant: Just wait a while and they disappear
04:03:57 <Supercheese> there's no other way I am aware of
04:11:36 <ccfreak2k> Is `movzx edx,dx' improper
04:11:56 <ccfreak2k> I'm giving myself a crash course in x86 assmbly so I'm trying to learn what shortcuts I can take.
04:12:02 <Supercheese> I have no idea...
04:17:32 <ccfreak2k> Wait why did I ask here
04:18:31 <Supercheese> Again: I have no idea...
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13:08:44 <supermop> listening to broomhall music
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14:44:19 <andythenorth> it’s oh so quiet
14:58:37 <andythenorth> you're all alone
14:58:38 <andythenorth> and so peaceful until
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15:34:15 <horazont> trying to get auto-separation for timetable’d trams to work
15:35:36 <FLHerne> horazont: Ctrl-clicking 'set start date' sets the start dates of all vehicles sharing that timetable to e evenly-spaced around the duration
15:36:24 <horazont> yes, but that only has odd effects, I assume I’m doing something wrong
15:36:26 <FLHerne> So if you have three vehicles sharing the TT and it takes 60 days to complete, it sets start dates at 20-day intervals
15:36:37 <horazont> my workflow is this right now:
15:36:44 <horazont> 1. make a tram, put orders, autofill timetable
15:36:51 <horazont> 2. send tram home, clone several trams with shared orders
15:37:06 <horazont> 3. ctrl-click set start date, set it to let the TT start a few days in the future
15:37:18 <horazont> result is that they are *all* running late immediately
15:37:27 <horazont> shouldn’t they be running early?
15:38:28 <horazont> hmm, no, the dates are indeed in the past
15:39:27 <Alberth> does it matter? Their due dates should be different, if you give them some slack, they'll get the their right point after some time
15:39:44 <horazont> hm, just that trams can’t change order easily
15:40:05 <horazont> ha, so the trick is to release them in order!
15:40:06 <Alberth> and passing each other may be a problem too
15:40:25 <FLHerne> horazont: Having at least one large station, with plenty of stops and waiting time, is usually a good idea with trams
15:40:59 <FLHerne> horazont: So that they can correct their order and/or wait time without blocking each other
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16:12:46 <andythenorth> if anybody would like to timetable my ships let me know :P
16:17:40 <horazont> I don’t believe in ships. but before today, I’d also have said that I don’t belive in passenger transport, and now my whole empire is based on passenger transport. CargoDist really makes it more fun
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16:25:13 <FLHerne> horazont: CargoDist autotransferring, combined with autorefit, makes ships a lot more fun too :-)
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16:51:00 <horazont> are there any considerable advantages of pre-signals over path-signals? afaict, since path signals were introduced, there’s no reason to use anything else, is there?
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17:00:32 <FLHerne> horazont: Many servers prefer you to use plain block signals rather than path for plain-line sections
17:01:02 <FLHerne> horazont: Because there's no difference in behaviour, and path-signals need a bit more processing
17:01:07 <Eddi|zuHause> which is plain useless
17:01:24 <V453000> that requirement is only because these servers want to make good players, the cpu is just an excuse or wrong reason
17:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because no evidence was ever produced to support this processing claim
17:01:37 <V453000> path signals will simply never lead you to proper solution
17:02:51 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure I saw some numbers somewhere. Not very significant ones though
17:03:30 <V453000> technical differences really dont matter FLHerne :) spamming 100 road vehicles or ships (which is very easy to do) will cause more harm
17:03:42 <FLHerne> Also, there's that annoying thing where path signals 'lag' and stop trains briefly even when a clear path exists
17:04:19 <FLHerne> 'Some servers insist on it' is a useful fact though, even if the reasons are dubious
17:04:37 <Wolf01> as we are talking about signals: on load balancers (those with a bridge/tunnel), is it better to use path signals or a bunch of pre-signals?
17:04:51 <V453000> pre-signals, they choose better
17:05:01 <V453000> path signals can often consider some paths not good enough etc
17:05:22 <V453000> since firstred of exit signal gives like 10 000 penalty, that makes the choice a lot easier
17:05:52 <horazont> I’ll go for some sandboxing to mess with signals :)
17:09:03 <Wolf01> I must rethink my cargo tracks, I can't use them for both point to point and CDist, the whole network screws up
17:09:55 <V453000> or expand your network :)
17:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, going at cargodist with a point-to-point mindset will almost certainly fail
17:10:07 <V453000> why would that fail Eddi
17:10:14 <V453000> it is the ultimate solution, no junctions, just stations
17:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that is already a different mindset
17:10:46 <V453000> sure but it takes care of itself easily
17:10:57 <V453000> no messing around, all of the distribution sorted out
17:11:37 <V453000> isnt about mindset, it just shows the broken nature of cargodist if it motivates do do such a thing
17:11:58 <V453000> logically, it does suggest it because stations solve all of the problems it brings
17:12:09 <Wolf01> the problem is to deliver a lot of supplies to boost the production for the pont to point cargos, they need a ring shaped network
17:13:11 <Wolf01> my current network don't allow to reach 2 pickup stations without first reaching the unload station/supplies station
17:13:33 <Wolf01> and the main intersection is about at the center of the map
17:13:44 <horazont> I was thinking that cargodist maybe only makes sense for symmetric goods
17:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> possible solution: stick a supplies wagon to all trains
17:14:05 <horazont> it is certainly loooots of fun with passengers
17:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can have the dropoff station take care of the distribution
17:14:58 <Wolf01> yes, that is an idea, I already tried it with YETI
17:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> other possible solution: use trucks and planes for the supplies, completely decoupled from the train network
17:15:32 <Wolf01> all the primary industry trains had some wagons for workers
17:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you can turn those off
17:17:25 <andythenorth> with freight cargos, point-to-point is the most valid cdist strategy
17:19:03 <FLHerne> I think having CDist 'cancel out' bidirectional demand for freightish stuff might make it behave better?
17:19:19 <andythenorth> it behaves exactly as expected right now
17:19:22 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t change it
17:19:43 <FLHerne> Some bidirectional coal/ore traffic for blending occurs in RL, but moving stuff in both directions across the entire map is a bit odd
17:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: well, tweak the demand functions if you dare...
17:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Boeing has reported $26.4 billion in pre-tax profits to its shareholders, while claiming a total of $105 million in refunds from the IRS, an effective tax rate of -0.4 percent."
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17:43:59 <andythenorth> FLHerne: how are you getting bidirectional demand?
17:45:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I mean if you have a secondary at each end of the map, and primaries spread out a bit, you have cargo going both ways up the middle
17:45:29 <FLHerne> Because some of the stuff from each end goes all the way down the map to the other
17:45:46 <FLHerne> Maybe I should turn up effect of distance a bit more
17:46:27 <andythenorth> you’re doing that not cdist :)
17:46:39 <andythenorth> cargo has no destinations
17:49:33 <andythenorth> for freight, you only want to create directed graphs
17:50:02 <andythenorth> and you want one secondary per graph typically
17:50:58 <andythenorth> and don’t bridge the graphs
17:51:12 <andythenorth> you want to create what I think some network theorists call cave worlds
18:00:19 <Alberth> non-cyclic directed graph will do :p
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18:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, you can make a cargodist graph directed by using "no loading" orders, but that kinda destroys any system that builds on an autorefit main line with feeders
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18:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and that brings you back to "trains drive empty on the way back"
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18:27:56 <andythenorth> but that’s just how cdist works
18:28:07 <andythenorth> you get odd results if you try to back load same cargos
18:28:58 <andythenorth> refit to different cargo is fine
18:29:04 <andythenorth> but that’s a different graph
18:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. hence the suggestion to change the way cargodist works.
19:08:10 <FLHerne> Also, some level of autorefit control beyond 'this specific cargo' and 'absolutely any cargo'
19:08:50 <FLHerne> And some way to actually force a complete refit - even 'autorefit to A' will load cargo B if the vehicles come in carrying B
19:10:07 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon you specified a range of acceptable cargos for refit
19:10:25 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you should be able to trick that by repeating the station, not sure
19:10:42 <andythenorth> in fact, I think what you just described is a bug
19:10:46 <andythenorth> which I think is fixed
19:11:10 <andythenorth> if there is a station refit order to A, then it should be honoured as long as B is unloaded
19:11:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The latter - you can't, without using two different stations
19:11:22 <FLHerne> Oh, that's interesting
19:11:29 <FLHerne> I should try recent trunk
19:11:37 <andythenorth> if you can reproduce the behaviour in recent trunk, it’s a bug imo
19:12:03 <andythenorth> I had a bunch of minor issues with refits and transfers, I reported them all to fonso, they all got fixed
19:12:18 <andythenorth> the last game I played (few weeks ago), everything working perfectly
19:32:29 <andythenorth> literally everything :P
19:32:42 <andythenorth> I didn’t need to adjust consists, which is the main remaining irritation in ottd :P
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20:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> saying "lmao" without context kinda defeats the point...
21:29:11 <Wolf01> changed a little the junctions and some tracks, now I deliver less supplies but to more stations in a single trip, they seem to be more happy about it
21:40:05 <FUZxxl> Considering I have a y-shaped fanout that I want to load-balance on (i.e. it doesn't matter what track the trains choose).
21:40:25 <FUZxxl> How do I place signals so that trains wait in front of the y until one of the sides is free?
21:41:01 <FUZxxl> i.e. they should not try to enter one of the arms until the block behind it is free.
21:41:22 <FUZxxl> Asides from using pre-signals, is there a way to do this with path-signals?
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21:43:27 <glx> the basic rule for path signals is to place them only where it's safe for a train to wait
21:44:38 <glx> so one before the y and the next one far enough so a train can wait on a branch without blocking the crossing
21:45:08 <FUZxxl> I'll report back when I can tell you if it works.
21:45:59 <andythenorth> still don’t understand the loans thing
21:46:39 <glx> andythenorth: built coal is better :)
21:47:23 <FUZxxl> I have recently started playing games where I restrict myself to passenger transportation (cargodist enabled). Lots of fun and requires a completely different railway design.
21:54:01 * andythenorth finds metros help a lot
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