IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-08-25
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00:34:26 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
01:22:56 <Supercheese> Oop, found a typo in base translation
01:32:20 <Supercheese> also made a change to hopefully address FS #6097
01:34:11 <berndj-blackout> if i sell a train that's in a depot with passengers, does amnesty international complain about my selling them into slavery? or is nothing except opportunity to deliver lost by selling a loaded train?
01:47:27 <Supercheese> nothing really happens
01:48:13 <Supercheese> although autorenew/autoreplace seems to keep cargo around, so won't make your full vehicles suddenly empty when autoreplaced
01:48:27 <Supercheese> manual sales still remove all cargo though
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04:17:43 <TruePika> Any known problems with Win64 multiplayer in 1.4.2? I'm getting a version mismatch, both the server and I are on it
04:17:54 <TruePika> on 1.4.2, I don't know if the server is Win64
04:20:05 <TruePika> a Mac client got in though, and IIRC that build has more problems than Windows
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04:40:15 <Sylf> you can connect to a server running on windows from mac client or vise versa
04:41:01 <Sylf> I play version 1.4.2 multiplayer all the time, so I'm not aware of any issues with version mismatch
04:42:01 <Supercheese> k, I can go either way, but slashes it is
04:42:18 <Supercheese> expect to see it in the next nightly build
04:42:34 <Supercheese> and test to see if I messed it up :P
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12:50:30 <andythenorth> should put it in FIRS
12:50:33 <andythenorth> industry: giant sheep
12:50:44 <andythenorth> produces: press coverage
12:51:03 <andythenorth> oh there was that thing with giant rabbits a few years ago too
12:51:08 <andythenorth> and those camel spiders in Iraq
12:51:16 <andythenorth> V453000: can you do a Giant Animals industry?
12:51:22 <andythenorth> I am too busy making realistical thigns
12:51:44 <Pikka> requires: misleading camera angles
12:53:22 <Pikka> such intellectual gentlemen
12:54:41 <andythenorth> Pikka: produces facebook shares
12:54:52 * andythenorth ponders various new cargos
12:55:41 <Pikka> V453000, is this a dairy farm which produces neapolitan icecream?
12:55:46 <andythenorth> “"The offender that was in the van got out and helped the police put his mate inside," Superintendent Jorgensen said."
12:55:55 <andythenorth> V453000: yay, giant animals
12:56:19 <andythenorth> Northern Territory’s dumbest criminals is a good list
12:58:29 <V453000> just normal PigCow farm
12:59:17 <andythenorth> nothing on forums today
12:59:53 * andythenorth will have to fix newgrfs
13:01:43 <andythenorth> or mv nars* /dev/dull
13:01:56 <andythenorth> still my favourite train grf, except for UKRS2
13:02:08 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is one of my only grfs that I don’t hate
13:02:27 <andythenorth> good job I don’t hate my kids like I hate my grfs
13:02:37 <Pikka> I wish to complain that there are no horses in iron horse
13:02:45 <andythenorth> complaint is noted
13:02:52 <V453000> there should at least be iron whores
13:02:55 <Pikka> horses are a great feature
13:02:58 <andythenorth> there will actually be horsies
13:03:08 <andythenorth> I am just putting them off
13:03:11 <andythenorth> needs animation and crap
13:03:16 <Pikka> I've always thought if there's one thing OpenTTD really needs
13:03:32 <Pikka> it's slower vehicles with smaller capacities
13:05:29 <V453000> any other logical reason? :D
13:06:02 <Pikka> I mean, who doesn't want to start a game in 1800 and build 200 road vehicles to shift the coal from one coal mine, at 5 mph?
13:06:04 <V453000> with default industries you already need to build tons of trains since they grow a lot
13:06:28 <V453000> idk, anybody who plays multiplayer probably doesnt want to do that :D
13:06:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: moar pipelines
13:06:47 <andythenorth> just build a coal pipe
13:06:56 <V453000> sure, especially for the cpu
13:07:37 <Pikka> then you get trains, and have to build massive stations because all your trains are 50% locomotives
13:08:46 <andythenorth> Pikka: you make it sound very attractive
13:08:52 <andythenorth> I am now going to rethink my sets
13:09:26 <andythenorth> I have been designing with availablility from 1870, but my most influential player always starts at 1900
13:09:41 <andythenorth> due to the availability of large, fast vehicles
13:09:45 <Pikka> 1900's a reasonable earliest start date I think
13:09:59 <andythenorth> now you make me think that maybe 1760 would be good
13:10:17 <Pikka> people carrying baskets on their heads
13:10:21 <Pikka> best vehicle concept ever
13:10:40 <Pikka> or a cattle drive maybe
13:10:44 <andythenorth> one piece of coal at a time
13:11:17 <Pikka> I mean, this whole discussion is quite realistic, anyway
13:11:31 <Pikka> there's no reason you can't have 300mph maglevs in 1760
13:12:52 <andythenorth> openttd is about connecting stuff
13:12:56 <andythenorth> not about the fricking trains :(
13:13:09 <andythenorth> somebody should write a blog or something
13:13:31 <Pikka> that content is not gameplay
13:14:12 <V453000> everything is gameplay
13:14:13 <andythenorth> can unite behind them
13:14:31 <Pikka> but anyway, yes. if a game isn't fun with one train, one gun, one hat
13:14:40 <Pikka> adding more trains, more guns and more hats isn't going to make it a better game
13:15:27 <Pikka> train fever has over 50 vehicles, so it's sure to be a great game!
13:16:10 <andythenorth> FIRS has more than 61 industries! *
13:17:38 <andythenorth> someone should start a thread
13:17:41 <andythenorth> about bad features
13:20:35 <V453000> to fish for valuable opinions
13:21:16 <andythenorth> so are the rest of your bankers on holiday today?
13:25:25 <Pikka> although I got a day off today because my lecturer couldn't be bothered coming back from tasmania. Must be the woolly sheep.
13:26:00 <andythenorth> also you can have the Queen’s birthday off
13:27:12 <Pikka> don't you get a queen's birthday?
13:27:37 <andythenorth> we don’t have a holiday for it
13:27:41 <__ln__> we don't even have a queen, how about that
13:27:48 <andythenorth> you are more loyal subjects
13:27:58 <LadyHawk> in england it isn't a law that states the birthday is a national bank holiday
13:28:07 <LadyHawk> some companies will give it you off.. others wont
13:28:18 <Pikka> in Queensland we still think it's 1958, so yes.
13:28:26 <LadyHawk> some you can take the day off... but first come first serve.. no more than X percentage of a section
13:29:17 <andythenorth> I have never encountered that :o
13:29:52 <Pikka> public holidays were great fun when I was a bus
13:30:22 <andythenorth> do you miss being a bus?
13:30:26 <Pikka> do I want to drive a sunday timetable, pick up no passengers, and get paid double time? yes I do.
13:30:45 <andythenorth> offsets, what larks
13:30:54 <andythenorth> makes me wish for faster compile
13:31:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: my advice, make all your ships the same size
13:31:19 <andythenorth> also put them all in the same place on spritesheet
13:31:43 <Pikka> when you render, every sprite is the same size, and centred the same, so...
13:31:48 <andythenorth> also don’t use two different sizes of spritesheet in your set
13:31:59 <andythenorth> and have random contributors randomly moving things
13:32:36 <Pikka> also DanMacK and his not-quite-right palettes for some reason :)
13:33:01 <andythenorth> I am used to fixing Dan’s stuff :)
13:33:43 * andythenorth is hoping for the return of the Mack
13:37:19 * andythenorth considers electricity
13:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> I mean, who doesn't want to start a game in 1800 and build 200 road vehicles to shift the coal from one coal mine, at 5 mph? <-- that would be more satisfying if industry production was lower in those times...
13:39:46 <Pikka> although, if we're still talking game-design maxims, I'm also not a fan of universal scaling for the sake of producing the illusion of progress. ;)
13:40:43 <andythenorth> it is a big words day today :)
13:40:51 <andythenorth> can we say ludic?
13:40:56 <andythenorth> ludic ludic ludic
13:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but there's a reason why industrialisation and railway development went hand in hand
13:41:19 <andythenorth> these big ships flicker a lot
13:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> one would probably not have happened without the other
13:42:15 <Pikka> Eddi: if telling a historical story is your goal, then it's fine
13:42:24 <Pikka> but as a fun gameplay device, doesn't do much for me.
13:43:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: ooi, what keeps you playing a game? (cos GS doesn’t seem to float your boot)
13:43:56 <Pikka> in OpenTTD? building a complex network is fun. I like supplies, they add to the complexity.
13:44:33 <Pikka> I want to write an AI that builds supply networks though, so I don't have to play any more. :)
13:44:55 <Pikka> watching the trains go by is nice
13:45:34 <Pikka> I actually quite liked watching the towns grow with TaI
13:45:47 <Pikka> got new TaI ideas for pineapple. ;)
13:45:53 <Pikka> with parameters, of course
13:45:56 <andythenorth> I am kind of lost now without a GS goal
13:46:03 <andythenorth> might be the curse of my generation :P
13:46:14 <Pikka> so those who want to complain about aircraft being too OP can still build their megacities everywhere
13:46:16 <andythenorth> apparently we are no good at open-ended play, and have to have a measurable target :P
13:46:48 <Pikka> andythenorth, I tried to come up with a GS but ran out of ideas
13:47:03 <andythenorth> I think you only really need one
13:47:11 <andythenorth> and then just follow it through completely
13:47:19 <andythenorth> I didn’t have one yet though
13:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> watching the trains go by is nice <-- i tried watching an AI game, but after a while your fingers itch and you can't help but play along...
13:47:39 <Pikka> I ran out of ideas at 0
13:47:52 <Pikka> well, you build your own trains and watch them
13:47:55 <andythenorth> I had one for The Grid. Build a power plant in n cities, deliver x amount of fuel. Within 30 years.
13:48:01 <Pikka> until someone makes an AI that makes good train networks
13:48:12 <andythenorth> Most of my ideas are cargo goals, and that’s just variation on existing theme
13:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but when i play, i spend way too much time paused...
13:48:23 <Pikka> andythenorth, also, industry-specific much?
13:48:34 <Pikka> what if I have an industry set with no power plants? :D
13:48:39 <andythenorth> I think industry-specific is fine in a GS
13:48:47 <andythenorth> no power plants? Your GS broken
13:48:53 <andythenorth> I would just lock it to FIRS tbh
13:49:09 <andythenorth> I think this la-la-la-land fantasty that GS is agnostic to newgrf is total bollocks
13:49:13 <Pikka> but what about fabulous pineapple TaI industries mk2?
13:49:33 <andythenorth> every other game I’ve seen with scenarios has them tied to map + content
13:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> until someone makes an AI that makes good train networks <-- maybe networks should be built more like fractals?
13:50:16 <Pikka> Eddi, do it and report back!
13:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll be waiting long.
13:51:55 <V453000> btw andythenorth I am making an awesome port :P
13:52:36 <Pikka> my one complaint about hearty darkness
13:52:45 <Pikka> is the different prots look too similar. :D
13:53:03 <andythenorth> there were more prot graphics
13:53:07 <andythenorth> but I didn’t put them all in
13:53:21 <andythenorth> you can tell bulk terminal from the others no? :|
13:53:41 <andythenorth> it’s port vs. fishing port that is problems
13:54:08 <andythenorth> is a bit nothing good
13:54:31 <Pikka> they're good for network cores though
13:54:39 <Pikka> because they produce supplies for their source industries
13:55:05 <andythenorth> I stuck by the thing that ‘OpenTTD does not produce cargos from off-map'
13:55:34 <andythenorth> ‘have more than one link between supply-using industry and supply source’
13:55:42 <andythenorth> which are both bollocks it turns out
13:56:11 <Pikka> I wonder if my supply model will be crap, then. :D
13:56:26 <Pikka> when I get around to industries
13:57:20 <andythenorth> you have more than one link? :P
13:57:53 <Pikka> I have a "supply factory" which produces supplies from goods
13:58:19 <Pikka> and produces supplies only for primary industries, no manufacturing supplies
13:59:23 <Pikka> so there's a reasonably complex chain to produce supplies
13:59:37 <Pikka> but once you're producing them, you can take them wherever you like
14:00:33 <andythenorth> I find I end up with too many
14:00:40 <andythenorth> never the right amount :P
14:00:48 <Pikka> there's also multiple chains which produce goods, so getting the feed stock shouldn't be hard
14:01:00 <Pikka> I'm going to limit the number of "natural" supply factories
14:01:07 <Pikka> if you need more, you must build them
14:01:44 <Pikka> dunno when I'll get around to putting it into action :)
14:03:17 <andythenorth> plan item 1: only make 8/8 vehicles with symmetrical sprites
14:04:19 <andythenorth> plan item 2: everything is ‘dry cargo’ or ‘tanker'
14:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> why don't you just make everything green boxes?
14:05:33 <andythenorth> we need liveries
14:06:05 <andythenorth> without liveries, how will I ever make my comprehensive box set, with all box liveries ever used?
14:06:29 <Pikka> real world sets don't need every livery ever used
14:06:38 <Pikka> they just need every livery you've seen out of your window this morning
14:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's how the DACH set started :p
14:07:37 <andythenorth> Pikka: very controversial that idea
14:11:09 <Pikka> I think it makes for a balanced set. 15 variants of the bog-standard EMU I ride to work, and, maybe, two steam engines for people who want to start earlier than 1987?
14:11:18 <V453000> I think they just need every colour needed to make it fun
14:11:23 <V453000> not necessarily livery :)
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14:21:55 <andythenorth> there, done that
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16:03:06 * andythenorth doesn’t trust hg merge :P
16:03:16 <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
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16:20:45 <Alberth> all smoke is smokin' ?
16:21:13 <DorpsGek> frosch123: I have not seen funnel.
16:21:28 <frosch123> he just left, was it a andy fake?
16:32:55 <LordAro> this is most unfortunate
16:32:59 <LordAro> I seem to be in France
16:35:16 <Alberth> is the weather any good there?
16:35:44 <LordAro> but then, it's raining across most of north western europe :)
16:36:30 <Alberth> no need to go to france for the weather :)
16:37:16 <andythenorth> we fair-use on build menu sprites from TTD?
16:37:58 * andythenorth is not too keen on that
16:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what is the question?
16:39:52 <andythenorth> I was about to release the Termite set, then I found those graphics
16:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <DorpsGek> frosch123: I have not seen funnel. <-- that basically means he never spoke...
16:40:08 <andythenorth> GPL isn’t a pick-and-choose option
16:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you're worried about GPL-ability, then use opengfx as base?
16:47:43 <Alberth> sounds like a good solution
16:48:54 <Alberth> did original even have "upgrade" ?
16:49:35 <Alberth> the other ones definitely not, at least
16:49:47 <Rubidium> well... the "original" elrail is from 0.4.5
16:49:53 <frosch123> the reused parts are mostly the border of the cursor and the tunnel and such
16:49:54 <Rubidium> or somethere thereabout
16:50:16 <frosch123> (at least it looks to me like that)
16:50:41 <frosch123> so, if you want to have them fit in with the other sprites, you have no choice
16:50:48 <Alberth> frosch123: indeed, I just wondered whether the "upgrade" things are really original
16:50:59 <frosch123> no, the upgrade is not
16:51:19 <frosch123> that is, the "arrow" part
16:51:32 <Rubidium> the rail upgrade is from before that (0.3.2)
16:51:40 <andythenorth> if I knew what was original…I could replace it
16:51:57 <andythenorth> going to provide new depots anyway
16:52:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: just check what is in baseset and what is in action5 gui sprites
16:52:26 <frosch123> anyway, the most original part are the dimensions and the grey box of the arrow shape
17:02:15 <andythenorth> tricky to replace that one :)
17:03:03 <andythenorth> so stuff like the canals use that too o_O
17:03:59 <frosch123> well, either you only support ogfx, or you reuse the original sprites :p
17:04:54 <andythenorth> I think it has to be ogfx for now
17:09:52 <andythenorth> that’s quite a big change :P
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17:11:02 <andythenorth> how in hg do I do the equivalent of reverting a single commit in git?
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17:45:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26760 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt ukrainian.txt) (2014-08-25 17:45:29 UTC)
17:45:38 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:39 <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Supercheese
17:45:40 <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 62 changes by Strategy
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18:04:58 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 16 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 2 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Snail> tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
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20:21:44 <andythenorth> there’s an AI running in my game
20:21:57 <andythenorth> interesting heuristic it’s using
20:22:26 <andythenorth> 250hp railcar to haul 156t coal over a hill
20:22:33 <andythenorth> bonus: 30 pax as well
20:22:38 <andythenorth> it’s making money though :P
20:34:30 <planetmaker> hehe, nice railcar. Which newgrf?
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21:40:33 <ortega> Hi, I have the following question. Is it possible to set up a network in such a manner: for example, I have two train stations outside of the towns A and B. In both towns there are several bus stations. A bus goes through all the bus stations and loads/unloads passengers and also goes to the train station to transfer passengers. At the same time the bus collects passengers from the other town that were brought in by the train
21:40:35 <ortega> and gets them to their destination, i.e. a specific bus station.
21:41:12 <planetmaker> yes. If you play with cargodist enabled for passengers
21:41:16 <ortega> I am using version 1.4.2 and "transfer" and "load if available" just loads the passengers that were unloaded. I thought that cargodist solved the problem but apparently it is not true
21:41:30 <ortega> is it possible that cargodist is not enabled then?
21:41:32 <planetmaker> otherwise you should read-up the wiki on how to setup two-way transer
21:41:46 <planetmaker> but that requires additional station(s) compared to what you describe
21:42:00 <ortega> it's the two-way feeder system or something like that
21:42:04 <planetmaker> cargodist is off by default. Dunno whether you changed that
21:42:04 <ortega> it just seems cumbersome
21:42:23 <ortega> I just looked at the advanced settings and didn't find how to enable it
21:42:36 <ortega> so I guessed it was on by default
21:43:15 <ortega> Could you please tell me how to enable cargodist for passengers?
21:45:44 <planetmaker> ortega: you likely need to change the display of settings in the very top of the adv. settings window
21:46:00 <planetmaker> set that to advanced or expert in both categories. then search for cargodist
21:51:10 <planetmaker> it's possibly a bit confusing that it's not considered a basic setting. But well... it isn't :)
21:51:49 <ortega> ah thanks, I think I've found it
21:56:35 <ortega> Do you by any chance know whether something like an underground mode is being considered? So one could make an underground metro system since it's it is a bit difficult to build train stations in an already developed town
22:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your value of "considered"
22:03:55 <glx> it's considered to need an insane amount of work
22:04:38 <glx> *require is probably a better word
22:05:28 <ortega> I'm actually not even sure how people managed to modify that game to much. I assume the source code was never released.
22:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it was reverse engineered
22:06:40 <glx> ttdpatch work was more impressive
22:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it clearly got to its limits on what it could do
22:08:34 <ortega> I actually never heard of ttdpatch
22:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> then don't bother anymore :)
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