IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-07-24
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06:54:54 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, link me your stupid high 2048 score please.
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08:35:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, found it in my history anyway :)
08:43:40 <ZirconiumX> What's the syntax for using extmidi? I think it's -m extmidi:<path to external midi player> but I'm not sure
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11:37:56 * Alberth sort of followed the topics by reading log :)
11:38:43 <Alberth> yep, and visiting my parents for a few days
12:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "politicians demand that airlines continue to fly to tel aviv, otherwise it looks like a capitulation before terrorism"... wtf have they been smoking?
12:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> americans withdrew their ban on flying to tel aviv on (hidden) political pressure instead of rational reasons. german politicians say it outloud
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13:37:03 <V453000> wtf ._. sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under is not defined as a function :0 I thought childsprite { sprite: sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under(14); } calls the 14th (counting from 0) frame of the animation :d http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3533/
13:37:13 <V453000> what am i doing wrong?
13:38:20 <planetmaker> V453000, unrelated, replace template_industrytile_x1(0,0,0,0,"gfx/industry_EMPTY.png") by []
13:38:43 <V453000> aha, that makes totally empty sprite
13:39:41 <planetmaker> and why is the spriteset name in ( ) ?
13:40:02 <planetmaker> that's a / the syntax error
13:40:18 <V453000> guess it was cloned from the x4 one :P
13:40:47 <V453000> no it has to be in ()
13:40:53 <V453000> without them it throws syntax error
13:41:02 <V453000> you mean this, right? spriteset (sprite_industry_tile00_under){
13:45:47 <V453000> hm, I dont get what does the error mean by "isnt defined as function"
13:45:58 <V453000> it is defined exactly the same way as my other animated sprite which already worked
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15:16:10 <DigitalFox> Hey guys, good afternoon :)
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15:21:47 <DigitalFox> I've been loading some Saves from Coop, where there's giant maps (2048) with 1400+ trains. I've been learning some track and signal things and I've noticed that even with more trains than my typical Save, the CPU is usage lower than my games (even trying just to have trains running).
15:21:49 <DigitalFox> Only thing I could identify as maybe being one of the major causes is the amount and size (not only of sprites but code complexity) of my loaded GRF's, for example 5 or 6 train set's. So does the amount and complexity of the GRF's loaded could increase the CPU use when having say 500 or 1000 trains or even more in a perceivable way?
15:22:31 <V453000> we have never used 2048x2048 map DigitalFox :)
15:22:44 <V453000> on one dimension perhaps, but the other was probably 64 or 128
15:23:08 <DigitalFox> hum I'm pretty sure then were atleast 1024 in size :\
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15:24:44 <DigitalFox> Well they look so filled with tracks and trains that it could trick my eyes :p
15:25:05 <Xaroth|Work> and probably highly optimized for efficient routing as well :)
15:26:51 <DigitalFox> But ok, even so, they have some many signals, more than I ever have used in all my savegames together, and yet on my testing machine the CPU (quad) is at full use and a save from coop is at 16 or 17%. It just seems such a big difference...
15:28:15 <DigitalFox> When I say full use, I mean 25/26/27%
15:33:03 <DigitalFox> V453000: By the way, amazing job on YETI, looks great :)
15:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "IR665 was the number of an Iran Air flight which was shot down by an american cruiser on 3rd of July 1988. 290 people died. the USA later paid 61.8 million dollar. they never apologised"
15:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> err... typo: IR655
15:40:26 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I hope that statement about capitulating to terrorists was also uttered when the ban for flying above the east of Ukraine was set
15:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no. and that just increases the absurdity of it
15:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because technically, the ukrainian airspace is more secure than the israelian
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16:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks very "self-documenting"
16:22:44 <LordAro> i still haven't quite worked out what it does
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16:29:19 <Rubidium> it looks unpatentable
16:52:46 <DigitalFox> Is train_width_32_px available to planes?
16:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there are no articulated planes, so there's no point
16:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that said, you probably want to achieve something completely different than what that actually does
16:55:49 <juzza1> can someone explain what happens with that _42 + 1?
16:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it skips 1 character at the beginning of the string
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16:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> c-strings are a pointer to the first character of the string
16:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the string ends at the first \0 character after that
16:58:02 <juzza1> thanks, now i understand
16:58:07 <juzza1> i was unable to google what it does
16:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so you remove characters at the beginning of the string by moving the pointer, and at the end of the string, by inserting a \0
17:08:48 <LordAro> if you named the function "hello", it would probably be more obvious
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17:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <LordAro> if you named the function "hello", it would probably be more obvious <-- but then the output wouldn't be 42
17:53:55 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause, precisely, it would make it clearer what the function does
17:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't just change the output of a program.
17:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't be the same program anymore
17:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> from a compiler construction perspective, all programs that output "42" and nothing else are equivalent
17:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if you change the name from _42 to hello, you change the output, and thus is an invalid change, creating a non-equivalent program
17:56:56 <LordAro> i know, but juzza was asking how it worked
17:57:56 <LordAro> i figured that the function name was being a bit confusing, and an actual word would make it clearer
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17:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda doubt that
17:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> changing the name doesn't explain the inner workings of C-strings
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18:13:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if cabeese can’t be done in the newgrf spec, aren’t they a BAD FEATURE?
18:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no.
18:14:13 <andythenorth> so the alternative is to extend spec?
18:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what you need is something like "template based train replacement"
18:14:55 <andythenorth> I thought maybe you were proposing some special train flag
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18:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> eat your cabbage.
18:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a BAD FEATURE
18:16:03 <andythenorth> I think that’s a temporally-dependent truth
18:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it just collides with the unintelligence.
18:16:19 <andythenorth> right now it’s a BAD FEATURE
18:16:26 <andythenorth> it’s causing me to think of other hacks
18:16:34 <andythenorth> like caboose -> rear lamp (1/8 long)
18:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if all tools you have are a hack, all things look like BAD FEATURES
18:17:45 <andythenorth> can you rewite that as a koan?
18:18:20 <andythenorth> some kind of little story or aphorism teaching a truth
18:18:35 <andythenorth> anyway, your statement sounds like a Java Monks thing
18:18:48 <andythenorth> you should post it in the BAD FEATURES thread
18:19:55 <andythenorth> caboose hack is…
18:20:09 <andythenorth> …trying to use refits in combination with cargo capacity 0 to achieve auto-replace?
18:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> caboose hack is... trying [...] to achive auto-replace.
18:26:10 <andythenorth> in a simpler world, we just forbid cabeese
18:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's entirely your choice as author whether to include them or not
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19:02:42 <V453000> nicfer: I replied to your questions :P
19:02:48 <V453000> 1 is unclear to me why
19:06:10 <nicfer> I asked 1 because sometimes worker yards appear outsides of towns
19:06:30 <V453000> well yeah the limit is 30 tiles away from town max
19:07:00 <V453000> it could be directly inside, yeah
19:07:14 <V453000> but with towns on hills it gets a bit tough
19:07:27 <V453000> so more of area around gives more probability that there will be an actual worker yard
19:07:42 <V453000> ultimate solution is that you can fund one anyway
19:10:20 <nicfer> the point is, WYs are supposed to represent something inside of towns, if they're outside it seems silly workers going hundreds of kilometers outside the city to start an even longer trip
19:11:30 <V453000> +- yeah, I agree there more or less, I dont see it as such a big issue but yeah
19:13:25 <nicfer> coding them as banks can make the trick, but as you said towns on hilly terrain may not be able to host one
19:13:53 <V453000> will consider it, thanks for the feedback
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19:18:43 <andythenorth> anyone here using react js framework?
19:18:45 <nicfer> on other topic, I'm thinking on making a spanish (AR) translation, but dunno if it's going to get eventually acepted
19:21:07 <frosch123> we also have portuguese (BR)
19:21:51 <frosch123> and english UK/US/AU
19:24:43 <nicfer> I've downloaded spanish.txt from the source code and started modifying it, just to test it out
19:30:40 <andythenorth> industry ID 0xFFFF is invalid
19:31:25 <andythenorth> can we up the limit?
19:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> am i missing a joke in the "longest snake" fact?
19:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no. maximum is 63. and this will stay forever.
19:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: implement GRM for industries. never worry about IDs anymore
19:34:06 <andythenorth> I might have no choice :P
19:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> GRM is the NML "reserve_sprites" construct, only you want "reserve_industry". this won't let you allocate more than 64 industries at the same time, but you don't have to define the ID as a compile-time constant, it will change depending on which industries are activated.
19:38:28 <andythenorth> might need that in future
19:38:47 <andythenorth> I am at 62 industries
19:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and if it's coded correctly, it can run two industry sets without conflict, provided they don't add more than 32 cargos and 64 industries combined
19:38:53 <andythenorth> I want to add more in new economies
19:39:04 <andythenorth> and I need to add a dummy industry for lang strings :P
19:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, a workaround is that you give the same ID to two industries which will never be in the same economy
19:40:37 <andythenorth> yeah, compile time beauracracy
19:43:08 <andythenorth> bah, the string switch trick isn’t working yet :|
19:43:12 <andythenorth> works in Iron Horse
19:44:03 <andythenorth> ah no graphics block for industries :P
19:47:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's mountain chain or something
19:47:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: grm for industries is bollocks
19:47:43 <frosch123> grm is when ids are shared
19:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but then the 60 years don't make sense
19:48:09 <frosch123> industries/tiles, houses, airports, stations, ... do not share ids
19:48:37 <frosch123> it's no problem to increase the industry type limit btw.
19:48:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's only half the use of GRM
19:48:50 <frosch123> only cargos and industrytiles would be tricky
19:49:36 <frosch123> cargos otoh have shared ids
19:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: for example GRM can also tell you whether you have enough railtypes free to allocate your whole scheme, or error out early
19:49:51 <frosch123> and that is mostly due to the pax/mail/goods/food weirdness of houses
19:50:08 <andythenorth> dunno what’s wrong with that
19:51:13 <frosch123> you miss an expression?
19:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how does your problem show itself?
19:51:43 <andythenorth> undefined strings
19:51:47 <andythenorth> compile appears to work
19:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do industry tiles use strings?
19:52:06 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
19:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> a "dummy cargo" may be problematic.
19:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also attach the dummy callback to the passenger cargo
19:52:56 <andythenorth> I’m out of cargo IDs :(
19:53:02 <andythenorth> yeah I’ll do that
19:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how that works out
20:05:17 <MTsPony> latest revision, is it normal for the game to default to 32bpp-anim blitter if none is set in openttd?
20:05:39 <MTsPony> there is no 32bp grf or baseset loaded
20:06:34 <Alberth> does your machine support 8bpp?
20:07:46 <MTsPony> mhh i dont see why not?
20:08:05 <Alberth> type openttd -h in a terminal, and check the list of blitters
20:08:12 <MTsPony> when i manually define 8bpp-optimized it uses that one instead
20:09:30 <MTsPony> 32bpp-anim: 32bpp Animation Blitter (palette animation)
20:09:30 <MTsPony> 32bpp-optimized: 32bpp Optimized Blitter (no palette animation)
20:09:30 <MTsPony> 32bpp-simple: 32bpp Simple Blitter (no palette animation)
20:09:30 <MTsPony> 32bpp-sse2: 32bpp SSE2 Blitter (no palette animation)
20:09:31 <MTsPony> 32bpp-sse4: 32bpp SSE4 Blitter (no palette animation)
20:09:31 <MTsPony> 32bpp-sse4-anim: SSE4 Blitter (palette animation)
20:09:33 <MTsPony> 32bpp-ssse3: 32bpp SSSE3 Blitter (no palette animation)
20:09:33 <MTsPony> 8bpp-optimized: 8bpp Optimized Blitter (compression + all-ZoomLevel cache)
20:09:35 <MTsPony> 8bpp-simple: 8bpp Simple Blitter (relative slow, but never wrong)
20:09:35 <MTsPony> null: Null Blitter (does nothing)
20:09:40 <MTsPony> sorry shouove used pastebin for that
20:10:05 <peter1138> Doesn't appear in my list ;(
20:10:48 <MTsPony> im confused why it defaults to 32bpp-anim and not 8bpp-optimized like previous builds
20:11:06 <andythenorth> still no strings
20:12:28 <MTsPony> would 32bpp-sse4 work better then 8bpp-optimized btw even for just 8bpp graphics?
20:13:20 <frosch123> MTsPony: 32bpp is default now
20:13:42 <frosch123> check the "support8bpp" option
20:14:02 <MTsPony> i wondered where that was for
20:14:36 <MTsPony> problem is, im not sure whats causing it but when i start the game, and turn on full animations it crashes
20:14:51 <MTsPony> whereas when i use 8bpp-optimized it works fine
20:15:18 <frosch123> "no" -> always 32pp; "system" -> os supports 8bpp, so render in 8bpp but use 32bpp video mode; "hardware" -> hardware supports 8bpp, use 8bpp video mode in fullscreen
20:15:29 <frosch123> but yes, manual blitter selection overwrites everything
20:15:42 <frosch123> manual blitter selection also disables 32bpp for newgrf
20:16:24 <MTsPony> what could cause game to crash when usin 32 blitter and turning on full animation?
20:17:35 <MTsPony> hah yeah :p is it a known bug?
20:17:51 <frosch123> only if you use ancient versions :p
20:17:54 <peter1138> OpenTTD uses 32bpp-optimized for me, if full-animation is off.
20:18:06 <peter1138> Turning it on switches to 32bpp-anim.
20:18:09 <andythenorth> I’ve done dummy callbacks for cargo, industries, industry tiles
20:18:10 <MTsPony> or perhaps it might have something to do with compiling SSE4.2 etc? im using intel compiler 14.0
20:18:17 <andythenorth> still undefined strings
20:18:29 <frosch123> peter1138: that only happens when not forcing a blitter via command line
20:18:29 <MTsPony> tho when compilijg it seems to override sse4.2 with msse3 etc
20:18:33 <frosch123> so, is that the issue?
20:18:35 <peter1138> Intel compiler... well any crazy shit might happen :p
20:18:35 <andythenorth> also complainign I didn’t set prop 08 for tiles
20:18:44 <frosch123> forcing a blitter which does not animation, and then switching it on? :p
20:19:14 <MTsPony> no it was 32bpp-anim :p
20:19:14 <peter1138> frosch123, no, it just doesn't animate.
20:23:06 <peter1138> MTsPony, any chance of a backtrace?
20:23:40 <andythenorth> I can’t find any strings in the nfo
20:23:48 <andythenorth> Iron Horse nfo has them
20:31:17 <MTsPony> [00] openttd 0x0048D9B5 __intel_memcpy + 745
20:31:17 <MTsPony> [01] openttd 0x00749AD7 std::std:: + 151 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\blitter\32bpp_anim.cpp:353)
20:31:17 <MTsPony> [02] openttd 0x00532C4F NetworkUndrawChatMessage + 223 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\network\network_chat_gui.cpp:172)
20:31:17 <MTsPony> [03] openttd 0x00532A1B RedrawScreenRect + 107 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\gfx.cpp:1271)
20:31:17 <MTsPony> [04] openttd 0x0053291B DrawDirtyBlocks + 491 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\gfx.cpp:1323)
20:31:19 <MTsPony> [05] openttd 0x004C0F27 ThreadObject::New + 151 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\thread\thread_win32.cpp:101)
20:31:19 <MTsPony> [06] openttd 0x004908C8 openttd_main + 4936 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\openttd.cpp:865)
20:31:37 <MTsPony> funny thing it says so ethng aboit intel memcpy? lol
20:31:52 <peter1138> See, what did I say about the Intel compiler? :)
20:32:36 <peter1138> Your line numbers are out, though.
20:32:48 <peter1138> And your directory separators are wrong too...
20:33:44 <andythenorth> firs compile kills my battery :(
20:33:51 <peter1138> 353 ,.......,.......dst += _screen.pitch;
20:34:46 <MTsPony> mhh? thats odd. its a patched 26694 revision, but im 100% sure the patch doesnt touch any blitter stuff
20:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: are you constructing strings with parameters?
20:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like string(STR_A, param1, param2)?
20:38:06 <MTsPony> what did you mean with my directory seperators are wrong peter
20:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those must be done in the dummy callback, too
20:39:15 <andythenorth> also I need to dummy the strings into all nfo files
20:39:20 <andythenorth> cargos, header files,
20:39:23 <andythenorth> not just industries
20:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on how many of those you want to compile individually
20:41:15 <andythenorth> ho, I now have some strings showing
20:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> does compiling each cargo individually make sense?
20:41:52 <andythenorth> right now it’s changeable
20:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd compile all the headers and the cargos as one nml file
20:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and then each industry separately
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20:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> then you need the dummy callback at the end of the (headers and cargo) file
20:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and at the beginning of every industry file
20:43:18 <andythenorth> I had the cargos as one file before, not sure why I changed it
20:43:22 <andythenorth> maybe no good reason
20:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> at this point partial compile becomes dangerous. because changing a cargo may influence industries that you didn't touch
20:47:32 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is pretty conservative about changes
20:47:39 <andythenorth> most things force a recompile
20:47:55 <andythenorth> FIRS will probably have to be same, except I need to trust make to do that
20:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you can add the header file as dependency for all partial files, then the whole set will be compiled when you change the header
20:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> something like: "%.nfo: %.nml header.nml"
20:50:58 <andythenorth> hmm, so the cargo name strings appear to be in firs.nfo
20:53:55 <andythenorth> maybe I have to include 'NEW_CARGO_SPRITE', in property block
20:54:00 <andythenorth> nforenum is whining about that
20:55:36 <andythenorth> or maybe I have to declare a block for each cargo
20:55:50 <andythenorth> I thought they only needed CTT though
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21:08:22 <andythenorth> newgrf 1: andythenorth 0
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