IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-06
            
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02:11:59 <kiz> Is cargo price a function of distance as the crow flies? Seems like it should be, but figured I would check.
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02:49:00 <Supercheese> Yes
02:49:13 <Supercheese> the graph "Cargo payment rates" will confirm that for you
03:06:14 <kiz> got it, roger.
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04:52:39 <supermop> hows it going?
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05:16:30 <LSky_net> morning
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05:54:01 <kiz> Does anyone know what the conditions are that cause town populations to shrink?
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06:23:20 <dihedral> good morning
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06:30:26 <DJTch7> hi everyone
06:30:40 <DJTch7> question regarding 1.4.0
06:30:42 <__ln___> everyone including yourself or not?
06:31:26 <DJTch7> for some reason, there are no forests on the map. Paper mills, but no forests.
06:31:33 <DJTch7> how do i fix this?
06:31:52 <V453000> have snow liner lower / mapr more hilly
06:32:01 <V453000> forests only grow above snow line in arctic landscape
06:32:04 <DJTch7> ok thanks!
06:32:11 <V453000> yw
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06:33:11 <Flygon> It does annoy me that it Arctic by default works like that...
06:33:16 <Flygon> Makes irl scenarios a pita @_@
06:35:00 <V453000> irl scenarios are also retarded for reasons
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06:50:40 <dihedral> <DJTch7> how do i fix this? <- plant seeds
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07:33:23 <planetmaker> moin
07:56:42 <V453000> moooo
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09:43:12 <peter1139> http://youtu.be/QDvt5q6bt1s
09:43:45 <peter1139> Except I don't actually know the original theme...
09:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably catch up on that :p
09:51:45 <Samu> i like this, for some reason
09:51:48 <Samu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MteSlpxCpo
09:52:07 <peter1139> Yeah, they're good too.
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10:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7urc4KrB8Nw
10:11:56 <Samu> can we discuss about the road/rail crossings again? Why's it such a bad idea to implement?
10:12:22 <Samu> even as an option
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10:13:37 <V453000> karma
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10:14:42 <Samu> sorry, my connection dropped
10:15:05 <Samu> did I miss anything
10:18:35 <peter1139> road/rail crossings what?
10:19:33 <Samu> permission for a road being built on competitor's rail and vice versa as an advanced game settings
10:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: why would we discuss something that is already implemented?
10:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> make a newgrf that disallows crossing, boom!
10:20:02 <Samu> i wanted an option to turn it off
10:20:17 <Samu> yes, but that's the issue with creating newgrfs
10:20:19 <Samu> no one joins
10:21:51 <Samu> there are too many NewGRFs that change minor things, but just the mere presence of newgrf detracts players from even joining a server
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10:22:38 <Samu> a toggle on/off switch was in my opinion a more feasible request
10:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then work on more seamless newgrf integration instead
10:23:39 <V453000> you even care about running a no-newGRF server? :D
10:23:40 <V453000> :D
10:24:27 <Samu> there's one-way roads that can block a rail from crossing, how did that go without requiring a NewGRF
10:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> read the logs from 5 years ago?
10:25:25 <V453000> why do you even remotely care about the road crossings?
10:25:35 <V453000> towns build over them? retards sabotage each other?
10:25:47 <Samu> because it would help moderate servers
10:25:49 <Samu> yes
10:25:54 <Samu> not about towns much
10:26:01 <Samu> but more about trolls
10:26:09 <V453000> which is why servers with newGRFs are good
10:26:17 <V453000> 90%+ of the retards get filtered out
10:26:22 <Samu> im sorry, I have a different oppinion
10:26:30 <Samu> servers with newGRFs are bad
10:26:37 <V453000> ok :D
10:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: so the trolls now build rails around places so people can't connect there anymore with roads?
10:27:21 <V453000> servers with newGRFs are bad because?
10:28:05 <Samu> because no one joins, no one nearly knows what's in it for them
10:28:16 <V453000> idk we have 15 companies every single game with newGRFs
10:28:37 <V453000> and many not-noob people actually do know newGRFs
10:28:46 <V453000> the vanilla game gets boring after a while
10:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: maybe noone joins because your server is badly moderated?
10:29:23 <Samu> it's being moderated fine
10:29:35 <Samu> i just sometimes wish i could force the trolls not to kill trucks
10:29:35 <V453000> then you have bad settings/map/server name
10:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no amount of technical nuisances will ever replace good moderation
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10:30:17 <Samu> but i can build road bridges
10:30:30 <Samu> it's the rail/road combo segment I am against
10:30:49 <V453000> make a newgrf which disallows it :) if you want other solution, enjoy implementing it
10:31:26 <V453000> but yeah newgrf is horrible
10:31:34 <V453000> how could anyone develop newgrfs
10:31:35 <V453000> such evil
10:32:20 <Samu> for new players or old school like me, the expectation is a TTD-like experience
10:32:36 <Samu> I think you understand what I mean
10:32:50 <Samu> those who are already into modding the game are way ahead
10:32:54 <V453000> well then add newgrfs which do not remove that experience
10:32:57 <Samu> they're experienced players
10:33:18 <V453000> like adding a newgrf which disallows rail crossings doesnt quite change the TTD-like experience
10:33:31 <V453000> well having experienced players on the server is good?
10:35:06 <V453000> experienced players usually dont require you to moderate them and eventually help you with it, or can even become admins
10:37:22 <Samu> with modding I mean, playing newGRFs
10:37:25 <Samu> not moderating
10:48:13 <Samu> it's a combination of accessibility + enjoying experience + expectation Im thriving to get
10:49:06 <Samu> newgrfs impact accessibility / expectations too much in my opinion
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10:55:23 <Samu> not to mention it would greatly ease moderation, pull a few trolls away
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11:33:58 <Samu> "towns are allowed to build level crossings" - is this what I think it is?
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11:34:33 <planetmaker> hard to tell. But it is what it says it is
11:35:25 <Samu> what's a level crossing?
11:36:13 <planetmaker> something you should consult a dictionary for
11:36:46 <Samu> gee
11:36:59 <Samu> why not have that option for companies too
11:37:11 <Samu> it's exactly what I was asking
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11:38:44 <planetmaker> the next person comes "gee, that's bad! I can have level crossings for rail, but I don#t want them for maglev and monorail"
11:38:59 <planetmaker> The 3rd comes and goes like "yes, but for my new railtype I want to allow level crossings again!"
11:39:01 <planetmaker> and now?
11:39:50 <Samu> implement for the 3 rail types
11:39:53 <Samu> or 4
11:39:59 <Taede> why not disable roads in general, i never use them
11:39:59 <planetmaker> thus we now have the most flexible solution possible: allow that per railtype which can be easily defined by newgrfs. And the NewGRF could even have a parameter which allows you to configure that per railtype
11:40:03 <Taede> ;)
11:40:23 <planetmaker> Samu, but there are 256^4 different railtypes
11:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 billion
11:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or milliards
11:41:00 <Xaroth|Work> @calc 256 ** 4
11:41:00 <DorpsGek> Xaroth|Work: 4294967296
11:41:15 <Samu> ah, the technical side of things
11:41:58 <Samu> just a do for all, do for none
11:42:40 <Samu> have newgrfs bypass that setting
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11:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and then people will say "what? this setting doesn't do anything"
11:44:12 <Samu> i dont know how newgrfs work, but could they adjust for individual types?
11:45:37 <Samu> i believe this would be possible to do, but it would force newgrfs a bit of work
11:45:41 <Samu> those already existant
11:45:46 <planetmaker> they can give you that setting. So the discussion is settled?
11:46:45 <Samu> no, the setting is only available for newgrfs, a new kind of setting, dunno what to call it, a bypass main setting
11:47:31 <planetmaker> you don't understand. You can make a newgrf which introduces that setting for the existing railtypes.
11:47:36 <planetmaker> Problem solved
11:48:13 <Samu> yes, but i was imagining if my suggestion was actually implemented in the advanced game settings
11:48:52 <planetmaker> If you want to make it easier to use, provide a patch with a setting in the UI or so which could read "allow automatic download of missing newgrfs when loading savegames or when joining multiplayer servers"
11:49:41 <Samu> or maybe a different way to handle it
11:49:49 <Samu> let me think
11:51:34 <Samu> provide that advanced setting in the advanced settings, then the choices would be yes, no (except newgrfs) and a second no
11:51:53 <Samu> the 2nd no would affect newgrfs
11:52:20 <planetmaker> err-too-many-settings
11:52:28 <Samu> :/
11:52:30 <Samu> okay
11:53:03 <peter1139> Owwwww
11:53:12 <peter1139> I stubbed my toe... on the wheelie bin.
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12:03:56 <V453000> !dl win64
12:03:59 <V453000> asdf
12:04:15 <V453000> also, the time when many faggots keep using "stable" and not "testing stable" is here again :D
12:08:22 <planetmaker> you should call it only "testing"
12:08:37 <planetmaker> as that's the download link, too :)
12:09:48 <V453000> it should be called stable :D
12:10:01 <planetmaker> only those without -beta or -RC
12:10:23 <peter1139> "many faggots" what?
12:10:25 <planetmaker> it's the purpose of the testing builds to test whether they're stable. But they might not
12:11:02 <V453000> sure but many people boycott that purpose :D
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12:14:50 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah
12:21:52 <peter1139> Well, the good news is I had bacon sandwiches.
12:21:57 <peter1139> The bad news is, I'm out of bacon :(
12:22:00 <V453000> that changes everything
12:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> good thing bacon grows in supermarkets
12:24:42 <V453000> : D
12:25:56 <V453000> that is about as logical as giant rocks falling from the sky to stone mines
12:25:58 <V453000> (y)
12:26:28 <planetmaker> power comes out of the wall plug
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12:29:52 <V453000> wall slug
12:31:23 <Samu> how do newgrfs handle the 4 existant rail types?
12:31:39 <Samu> ignores them? accepts them? is based on them?
12:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> they can replace/change them but not remove them
12:33:05 <Samu> i see where the "too many settings" is coming from now
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12:38:13 <Samu> towns don't build roads on monorails?
12:38:57 <Samu> i still think the best approach would be much like how towns do it
12:39:14 <Samu> if it were to be implemented, of course
12:39:58 <Samu> the 50 yearly game years would have road crossings, the later 50 years would haven't
12:40:50 <V453000> ._.
12:41:05 <Samu> then i could start up a game in 2000 or so
12:41:32 <Samu> but i dont know exactly how towns do it for monoral/maglev
12:43:03 <Samu> brb gonna check
12:43:48 <V453000> same way as for rail
12:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?!?
12:44:13 <V453000> towns build roads on any rail if the setting is on, or on no rail if the setting is off
12:44:20 <V453000> you see, modification of specific railtypes is done by newgrfs
12:44:29 <V453000> but you hate all newgrfs, too bad
12:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's like hating all realism :p
12:45:28 <V453000> not really
12:45:35 <V453000> newgrfs are functional, realism isnt
12:45:40 <Samu> realism, who would want to die in a level crossing :(
12:45:54 <Taede> plenty ppl, if you look at youtube
12:46:01 <V453000> :D
12:46:05 <V453000> point proven
12:46:08 <V453000> thanks Taede
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12:47:50 <Samu> ah it's all or none for towns, thx
12:47:57 <Samu> even better
12:49:18 <Samu> the too many settings approach would be something like: give the same crossing rules to companies and towns, then each of the 4 rail types could be customizable to allow/disallow
12:49:40 <Samu> but i know there's more than 4
12:49:44 <Samu> the others would be set up by newgrfs
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12:50:23 <planetmaker> sure. Thus adding two places where you change that particular setting. Sounds useful, Samu
12:50:53 <planetmaker> but each place only allows to change the setting for half of your railtypes. Great. Really.
12:51:03 <Samu> you mean, how to present the setting in the advanced menu?
12:51:41 <Samu> i dont understand what you mean now
12:51:46 <Taede> wouldn't creating a rules webpage and referring to that using an ingame sign be easier?
12:52:10 <Taede> "Thou shalt not build level crossings over other ppl's infra"
12:54:46 <Samu> yes I can, it's more like a bait to trolling but... i can try that
12:55:02 <V453000> no Taede that is not an option because he want server without newGRFs, hence Players and similar people who in many cases cant even read
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12:57:52 <Samu> has it been tried?
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12:58:07 <V453000> what
12:58:11 <Samu> or is there a newgrf that do this? i could try, but I place my bets no one will join
12:58:56 <V453000> yes some newgrfs do that for high speed tracks
12:59:18 <Samu> i mean, for the original openttd
12:59:23 <Samu> the base set
12:59:24 <V453000> if nobody joins your server just because you have newgrfs there, then you either 1. have them from elsewhere than download content, or 2. your server is shit (settings/something)
12:59:47 <V453000> original openttd with newgrfs isnt original openttd anymore?
13:00:10 <Samu> it certainly does not help it
13:00:29 <Samu> but i want to try
13:03:15 <Samu> why do you think newgrfs are good? you keep defending them like they're the best thing ever. They are from a technical perspective, yes I agree
13:03:37 <V453000> did you just counteranswer yourself or
13:03:38 <Samu> but it sure complicates even searching for a game
13:03:53 <V453000> how does it complicate searching for a game?
13:03:53 <Samu> with a specific newgrf
13:04:07 <V453000> well, a bit
13:04:08 <planetmaker> what's complicated there? "Get needed newgrfs". "join"
13:04:27 <planetmaker> and each is one button click. That's it
13:04:31 <Samu> not that, but picking from a big list a game with a determined newgrf
13:04:37 <Samu> mixed up with all others
13:04:37 <planetmaker> unless you use newgrfs from murky sources
13:04:43 <V453000> many servers often use the same newgrfs all over again so it isnt that terrible
13:05:00 <Samu> it's the whole mix that confuses me
13:05:53 <Samu> i can install different newgrfs, but only wish to play in one
13:06:11 <Samu> there's not an easy way to differentiate them
13:06:17 <Samu> when they're being listed
13:06:32 <V453000> just wtf.
13:07:09 <Samu> omg what's so hard to understand? put yourself in place of a beginner
13:07:30 <V453000> beginner has hard time pressing download content button?
13:07:43 <Samu> clearly you don't get it
13:07:51 <V453000> beginners on our server clearly dont have such problems
13:07:59 <V453000> and those are often people who play the game for 1st time
13:08:51 <Samu> if I have different newgrfs installed, i dont need to re-download them
13:09:11 <V453000> so which problem remains?
13:09:35 <Taede> filter server list based on wether is uses certain newgrfs?
13:09:37 <Samu> when i want to join a server, when i already have several newgrfs installed, i need to click on each server to get to know which newgrfs they're using
13:09:44 <Samu> yes
13:09:44 <Taede> eg only play on servers which use first or nuts
13:10:44 <Samu> that is the mixed up part that makes newgrfs complicated for me
13:11:22 <V453000> I think your brain is complicating a lot of things for you
13:11:54 <Samu> i think you're too bias
13:17:02 <V453000> no I just think people who have no idea about playing the game are not very suitable for running servers
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13:19:22 <Samu> that's bias
13:20:09 <V453000> it proves true every single time
13:22:02 <planetmaker> Samu, if you don't know the game, you don't care which settings or newgrfs a server has - you can't judge it anyway
13:22:15 <planetmaker> so for a beginner the different settings don't matter
13:22:22 <planetmaker> he picks randomly any
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13:22:54 <planetmaker> and he won't despair by the need to click once additionally 'download newgrfs'
13:23:36 <Samu> when i was a beginner, i was coming from TTD
13:23:54 <planetmaker> as *player* on MP servers I never have to care about NewGRF config anyway. Unless I really have some NewGRFs which are in your personal must-have or cannot-play-with category
13:23:54 <Samu> that's my point of view, maybe my bias is that
13:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> did i not say "help make newgrf usage more seamless" already?
13:24:43 <planetmaker> you did. And I did, too, pointing out what can be done
13:24:53 <planetmaker> but no... that doesn't matter
13:25:14 <planetmaker> the real problem seems to be "I don't want the need to configure newgrfs when I want to start a server"
13:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think Samu has a hard time recognizing when a discussion is over.
13:25:39 <planetmaker> "while I also want features X, Y and Z which are implemented via NewGRFs"
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13:27:33 <Samu> which newgrf have that setting? there's 300+ newgrfs to pick from :(
13:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the one you write
13:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> call it "disable level crossings" and everybody knows what it does
13:28:26 <Samu> ok, ok
13:28:57 <planetmaker> swedishrails has it for rail and erail
13:30:18 <Samu> any server running that?
13:30:54 <planetmaker> metrotracks has that setting, too
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13:32:03 <Samu> just had an idea, when searching for a server, the string could also search from the list of newgrfs a server is using
13:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> great idea. now implement that
13:34:07 <planetmaker> transrapid tracks, too
13:34:20 <planetmaker> smts seems to lack the parameter
13:35:28 <V453000> PURR dares to lack that parameter too.
13:35:28 <V453000> (:
13:36:52 <Flygon> I need to stop reading smts as smuts
13:38:07 <planetmaker> I always wanted to make ce-tracks...
13:38:46 <V453000> watiz ce-tracks :D
13:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> curvy rails
13:39:47 <V453000> dont want to know how would that look :)
13:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat like gold rush rails
13:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> just less elaborate
13:40:24 <V453000> havent seen those, is it on bananas?
13:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but there are concept screen shots on the forum somewhere
13:41:46 <V453000> I know dont worry, 150 years old and without release
13:41:47 <V453000> hopeless :)
13:42:00 <V453000> still, that concept isnt really doable, is it?
13:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be a simple railtype property
13:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather variable
13:42:47 <planetmaker> yeah... ce-tracks as yet-another-trackset won't happen. Needs to support at least 4x. And maybe something fancy as curvy tracks :D
13:42:56 <planetmaker> like dike map for canals?
13:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. a varaction2-variable that gives you the trackbits of the 4 adjacent tiles
13:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and there was talk about some flag of returning the full tile graphics instead of individual trackbits
13:44:08 <planetmaker> was that discussion summarized somewhere?
13:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a forum topic
13:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> # sometimes i get to launch timmy. (what?)
13:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> # for tim's perspective just press 'C'
13:46:20 <Samu> transrapid looks good
13:46:25 <Samu> for my purposes
13:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyP-NvlhITM&hd=1
13:47:43 <Samu> oops, im still allowed to build road on rail with transrapid
13:48:24 <peter1139> HI WHAT
13:49:41 <Samu> nevermind, only for maglev and monorail :(
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13:57:57 <Samu> metro tracks doesn't work like i want
13:58:28 <Samu> screw this... I give up
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15:02:32 * V453000 has the first of my more-complicated animations done =D
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15:47:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think he’s probably drunk
15:47:56 <andythenorth> that’s my assumption anyway
15:50:15 <andythenorth> hmm
15:50:28 <andythenorth> I once proposed a rule that offensive whining causes a feature to be delted
15:50:33 <andythenorth> deleted *
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15:55:50 <Alberth> evenink
15:55:57 <andythenorth> lo
15:57:08 <planetmaker> oddink
15:57:30 <planetmaker> @logs
15:57:30 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
15:58:07 <Alberth> that's a standard entry in my collection of bookmarks :)
15:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i always type that from memory
16:01:45 <planetmaker> actually... it's in my bookmarks, too. As it seems
16:02:45 <planetmaker> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6009 <-- any thought on this. Sounds like a go to me. With a clearer wording of the actual warning message
16:10:09 <Alberth> a bit of shuffle of the simpler conditions to the front may be useful, as a ( ... & ... ) != 0 test
16:10:22 <Alberth> s/as/and/
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16:15:41 <LordAro> quak
16:15:53 <frosch123> hai
16:15:59 <Alberth> hai too
16:16:56 <planetmaker> Alberth, well, yes, maybe. It somewhat defines the importance of the warnings
16:17:15 <planetmaker> the current one can be argued for as optimal - though there's a lot of personal preference in it
16:17:25 <planetmaker> quark :)
16:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> jo-kurt
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16:39:26 <planetmaker> the commuter airport is also a small one with short runway, yes? And Darwn 600 or airtaxi -1000 should be large planes...
16:39:31 <planetmaker> ah... there it comes, the message
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16:56:07 <planetmaker> hm, we have a commted-out debug message in orders_cmd.cpp
16:56:12 <planetmaker> //DEBUG(misc, 3, "Triggered News Item for vehicle %d", v->index);
16:58:22 <Alberth> lol
17:01:38 <frosch123> delete it?
17:02:01 <Xaroth|Work> maybe peter1139 has a patch for it to fix it?
17:02:27 <frosch123> i remember tb removing a single empty line in one commit :)
17:04:17 <planetmaker> yeah... delete or re-instate it. That's the question
17:04:33 <frosch123> delete, noone missed it
17:04:53 <planetmaker> yeah... hg rev 5380. That's ages ago
17:04:59 <peter1139> Hmm?
17:05:18 <planetmaker> public [5380:8ea58542b6e0 default] 2006-12-26 17:36 +0000 Darkvater
17:05:18 <planetmaker> (svn r7565) -Codechange: Rework DEBUG functionality. Look for appropiate debugging levels to
17:05:18 <planetmaker> use in debug.h. grfmsg() is now used as a specific debug-function for grf.
17:05:37 <Xaroth|Work> now that's a name I haven't seen in a while
17:06:02 <frosch123> it's some alpha release of rb or something
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17:06:19 <frosch123> but we got the real release
17:06:30 <planetmaker> :D
17:07:32 <planetmaker> I want to rework CheckOrders so that it uses the stringIDs directly. There's no point in counting problem numbers and adding to the first problem string
17:08:24 <frosch123> is the index used somewhere else?
17:08:32 <planetmaker> no
17:08:35 <frosch123> for priority or setting or surpression?
17:08:41 <planetmaker> and it's not even incremented anywhere or so
17:08:48 <frosch123> ok :p
17:09:39 <planetmaker> there's DeleteOrderWarnings - but that handles each explicitly
17:09:45 <planetmaker> without any index
17:10:17 <planetmaker> ok, I'll tidy this up. But first some sports
17:10:21 <planetmaker> see you later
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17:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there was something about order checking that i wanted, but i forgot
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17:34:00 <Wolf01> hi hi
17:35:00 <Wolf01> http://stefan-morrell.cgsociety.org/ warning: wonderful art
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17:45:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26565 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-05-06 17:45:27 UTC)
17:45:38 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:39 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 4 changes by xiangyigao
17:45:40 <DorpsGek> english_AU - 56 changes by mrtux
17:45:41 <DorpsGek> korean - 12 changes by telk5093
17:45:42 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 57 changes by Stabilitronas
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17:48:45 <andythenorth> lolwut?
17:48:59 <Wolf01> hi andy
17:49:11 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: so how does cdist work out routes when the routes are based on conditional orders? :P
17:49:24 * andythenorth has seen an odd-looking patch
17:50:09 <andythenorth> ‘where are you going’
17:50:22 <andythenorth> ‘wherever the cargo you load wants to go'
17:50:49 <andythenorth> ‘what cargo will you load?’
17:50:58 <andythenorth> ‘the cargo that goes where your’re going'
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17:58:11 <Alberth> cdist does heuristic gambling on what conditional orders mean, afaik
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17:59:44 <Alberth> Wolf01: nice art indeed
17:59:57 <tommylommykins> ooh, does time spent loading cargo count as time for the purposes of calculating cargo income?
18:02:34 <Alberth> iirc it does, but I never studied the GameMechanics page closely
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18:22:07 <andythenorth> heuristic gambling is basically a dice roll?
18:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> heuristic is "this is probably a good idea but i'm not sure", gambling is "i have no idea, let's try"
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18:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> they are two entirely different things
18:31:15 <frosch123> so a heuristic involves loaded dice?
18:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat
18:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> although, most applicable heuristics i know are actually deterministic
18:37:33 <Alberth> afaik cdist tries to understand what you mean, which of course fails at some point
18:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but i wonder now, why would cargodist care? it's a graph, so it may as well just add edges for both branches of conditional orders
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18:45:17 <Alberth> you'd get loads of bug reports :)
18:46:03 <Alberth> I have seen people complain that an order "stop at depot" means that you don't get any cargo load at the station before :p
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19:03:47 <andythenorth> struck me as it might produce very odd results with waybill, where capacity is measured
19:03:51 <andythenorth> maybe not
19:04:26 <andythenorth> positive feedback loop
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19:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it totally screams of feedback loops
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19:10:56 <andythenorth> it also seems to slightly miss the point
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19:11:18 <andythenorth> the premise (AIUI) of cdist is that it routes where the player provides transport
19:11:23 <andythenorth> even more so in the waybill mode
19:11:58 <andythenorth> delegating the vehicle routing conditionally back to the cargo when the cargo is trying to follow the vehicle seems…at least not optimum
19:12:17 <andythenorth> but anyway, andythenorth is just thinking aloud
19:12:20 <andythenorth> ignore andythenorth
19:12:56 <peter1139> i do
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19:27:17 * andythenorth feels ignored :(
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19:30:04 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: i notice everything!
19:30:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: if you feel like it, we can talk via pm
19:32:15 <andythenorth> DorpsGek: thanks, let’s do that
19:32:17 <andythenorth> how do I pm?
19:33:08 <Alberth> /mesg DorpsGek ?
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20:05:52 <andythenorth> so is Squirrel an appropriate level of dififculty for me?
20:05:58 <andythenorth> bearing in mind I can’t program
20:06:06 *** frosch123 has quit IRC
20:06:16 * andythenorth is bored of waiting for new GS
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20:06:53 <Rubidium> it's a fairly simple scripting language with some OO-ish structs
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20:10:50 <andythenorth> can I do more damage with it than I do with python?
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20:12:26 <Rubidium> you can OOM OpenTTD
20:12:52 <Rubidium> you can't open/remove files with it, open network sockets
20:13:31 <glx> you can't access anything outside stuff allowed in API
20:14:17 <frosch123> maybe you can code a admin port <-> lego bridge
20:14:22 <frosch123> and then control lego vehicles
20:14:31 <glx> IIRC you can't freeze openttd (even with an infinite loop)
20:14:40 <Taede> well, is there something that connects lego <-> irc?
20:14:52 <glx> probably Taede
20:15:06 <frosch123> glx: oh, it has been possible multiple times
20:15:37 <glx> still possible frosch123 ?
20:15:46 <frosch123> not known :)
20:16:24 <frosch123> but stuff like built-in sort methods looping when the script provided comparator did <= instead of <
20:16:26 <frosch123> and such
20:16:46 <frosch123> ottd only suspends the scripts, not the interpreter :)
20:17:11 <glx> yeah built-in is ugly ;)
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20:19:04 <andythenorth> the GS I have looked at look like real programming :o
20:19:13 <andythenorth> is that just style, or is that the only way?
20:19:54 <frosch123> you just take zuu's minimal script, and keep on adding stuff
20:20:36 <andythenorth> seems like there are proper loops and data structures and stuff
20:20:51 <andythenorth> syntax looks easy
20:21:25 <andythenorth> we didn’t consider doing this in bytecode? o_O
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20:23:33 <frosch123> nah, the printable chars are only comments
20:23:38 <frosch123> the actual code is in the whitespace
20:24:40 <andythenorth> awesome
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20:36:38 <planetmaker> re hi :)
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20:51:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26566 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-06 20:50:58 UTC)
20:51:02 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6009]: Give a warning when a plane's orders tell it to use a runway which is too short for it (3298)
20:53:14 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26567 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-06 20:53:08 UTC)
20:53:15 <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove unused StringID offset in orders check
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21:01:03 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Cargodist simulates all possible branches of the conditional orders and acts like the vehicle will go everywhere at once.
21:02:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26568 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-05-06 21:01:55 UTC)
21:02:02 <DorpsGek> -Change (r26566): Better wording of the new warning (Supercheese)
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21:02:42 <fonsinchen> The problem with autorefit to waiting cargo is more that cargodist does not know which cargoes can possibly use a certain link
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21:03:15 <fonsinchen> Thus it always sticks with the (then) current cargo when encountering such a link during simulation.
21:03:35 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: you saw the request for conditional orders based on current cargo destination?
21:03:40 <andythenorth> not from me I add :P
21:04:48 <frosch123> does already loaded cargo even have a destination?
21:05:20 <fonsinchen> No. Also, waiting cargo doesn't have a destination either, only a next hop
21:05:30 <fonsinchen> But what request are you talking about?
21:06:07 <frosch123> when andy is in good mood he goes to the suggestion forum
21:06:17 <frosch123> maybe he does not stand having a good mood
21:06:35 <andythenorth> what is ‘good mood’ ?
21:06:37 <frosch123> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=70508
21:07:21 <andythenorth> hmm
21:07:29 <andythenorth> I think I remember a good mood last year sometime
21:07:34 <fonsinchen> That already works
21:07:37 <andythenorth> there was probably a new feature in newgrf spec or something
21:07:47 <fonsinchen> The documentation in the wiki was wrong until a few days ago
21:08:59 <fonsinchen> Ah, no, only the "if empty return" thing works
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21:30:13 <planetmaker> german translators are also slackers
21:30:40 <frosch123> :p
21:31:14 <planetmaker> Terkhen, glx: new strings ;)
21:32:13 <glx> wow 28 untranslated and 42 needing validation
21:33:10 <planetmaker> I also just needed to translate half a dozen. I expected one :P
21:35:19 <glx> and I need to check the source for some of them (to see the usage)
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21:35:48 <planetmaker> which?
21:36:07 <glx> STR_TIMETABLE_STAY_FOR_ESTIMATED
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21:36:56 <planetmaker> ah, if you know the timetable window. It now gives estimates, even when not time tabled - based on info gathered anyway for cargodist
21:37:09 <glx> well for this one it's a duration I guess, but I think I had the "travlel for" one wrong ;)
21:37:10 <planetmaker> so the same usage as the actually fixed scheduled
21:47:15 <andythenorth> bedtime
21:47:16 <andythenorth> bye
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21:49:05 <frosch123> night
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21:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody have a problem with firefox not properly exiting?
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22:35:16 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:40:57 <glx> pff done
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