IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-03-01
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00:21:52 <Supercheese> Someone really tested the capabilities of 3D printing
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00:26:07 <Supercheese> "Some assembly required" ;)
00:26:49 <Gallomimia> oh yeah it's from parts. amazing
00:26:56 <Flygon> It's almost as long as I am tall!
00:28:09 <Supercheese> I have a 3D printer... but man, that's something else
00:28:21 <Supercheese> best I've done are keychains really :P
00:28:42 <Supercheese> Hmm, I suppose I could print OTTD vehicles...
00:28:50 <Supercheese> zBase has the models
00:29:48 <Flygon> Dumb question related to that: How difficult (or, more to the point, possible) is it to have vehicles change their sprite not just for the 8 directions, but to smooth out the positions inbetween, and to also account for the slope?
00:29:58 <Gallomimia> i seem to have seriously underestimated the profitability of oil ships on a big map
00:30:07 <Flygon> Or would storing all the necessary sprites in 32bpp format take up too much VRAM?
00:30:27 <Supercheese> I don't think there are even variables to allow for slope...
00:30:33 <Supercheese> curves have magic vars
00:30:37 <Supercheese> dunno about z-height changes
00:31:03 <Flygon> I knew about the curves one, but wansn't sure about z
00:31:17 <Supercheese> I'd be very interested if someone has a method for slope-sprite display
00:31:49 <Flygon> Though, the real issue is... it's not possible to draw in 2D form unless the artist is REALLY patient
00:32:10 <Supercheese> well, the new pixeltool could automatically interpolate the views
00:32:14 <Flygon> And I'm not sure how much VRAM would be needed for full sized 32bpp sprites, if the z axis could be accounted for
00:32:26 <Supercheese> it takes the 3-anble projection and makes 9-directional isometrics already
00:32:38 <Flygon> I meant hand pixel art, not 3D render. A sensible person would default to 3D tho
00:32:53 <Flygon> (imagine having to do both curve AND slope... even MORE VRAM taken :D)
00:33:28 <Supercheese> Code seems like it could be extended for more views
00:33:49 <Supercheese> it's a very, very slick tool
00:33:59 <Flygon> Shame they never took off
00:34:15 <Flygon> Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri has absurdly good looking 3D models, thanks to voxels
00:34:38 <Flygon> Shame we're only just cracking the format (Caviar went out of business before the expansion pack was released)
00:35:33 <Supercheese> Age of Empires 2 rendered from 3D models if I'm not mistaken
00:36:21 <Supercheese> not sure what process they used though, and Ensemble is dead
00:36:22 <Flygon> Age of Empires II used pre-rendered 3D models
00:36:36 <Flygon> They used bog standard 3D software, nothing was realtime
00:36:54 <Flygon> And rendering the game's units with voxels would've likely killed computers worldwide at the time
00:37:12 <Supercheese> oh, you mean realtime stuff
00:37:16 <Flygon> SMACX only really gets away with it because it's not animating everything 24/7
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01:01:47 <Flygon> AoEII could prolly be done with voxels realtime on PC's... as of 2005, honestly
01:20:22 <Supercheese> Isn't there an AoE2 HD?
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01:52:04 <Gallomimia> i like how they call it the "age" of empires as if the age for empire building and running and fighting over was over ^^
02:03:04 <Gallomimia> is there a secret to being able to buy helicopters? don't seem to be able to build any airports where i can buy those...
02:03:07 <Supercheese> Nah, it's just the second age
02:03:18 <Supercheese> There's one age, another age, another... and here we are today in the nth age
02:03:33 <Supercheese> Empires continue rise and fall
02:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the default set doesn't have helicopters at all times
02:04:55 <Supercheese> As for helicopters, if available they should be from any airport hangar or heliport hangar
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02:11:22 <Gallomimia> the only airport i can build is the commuter, and no helicopters
02:11:59 <Gallomimia> i have a helluva lot of oil plats. would sure like to service them with mail and workers
02:17:03 <Supercheese> What year is it, and what grfs are running?
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02:18:36 <Gallomimia> default grfs, and it's 2053
02:19:01 <Supercheese> I think all of the helicopters in the base set have expired by then
02:19:18 <Gallomimia> drat. i thought i'd turned expiring vehicles off
02:19:42 <Supercheese> basically, make sure never expire vehicles is on
02:19:48 <Supercheese> then run the console command "reset_engines"
02:21:11 <Supercheese> that, of course, has the side effect that ALL old vehicles will be available for purchase
02:23:26 <Gallomimia> expiring is great as long as there's something to replace it :P
02:24:09 <Gallomimia> the first game i played had the interesting caveat of the only regular rails locomotive available expiring after i'd gotten a decent sized rail network built
02:25:01 <Supercheese> Yeah, default set has some issues with expiry
02:27:23 <Gallomimia> really makes me question as to why it's a default set anymore...
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02:41:11 <Supercheese> OGFX+ should be the "default set" these days IMO
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02:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but it isn't. and it's not going to be either.
02:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> same reason why there's no default AI
02:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, the default set is perfectly playable. why change it?
02:55:12 <Supercheese> No trams, helicopters that expire, no support for exotic cargoes...
02:55:32 <Supercheese> but it is easy enough to grab some newgrfs
02:56:07 <Supercheese> so, eh, guess there's not a particularly pressing need to change it
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03:09:58 <Gallomimia> jeeze you hope and wish for so long to have a decent profit base to start throwing all kinds of money into trains and depots and then it happens and it's overwhelming where do you start?
03:14:20 <Gallomimia> in order to make trains less collidy-deadlocky do you guys usually put one way signals and make them stay on their own side of the 2track system?
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03:30:24 <Supercheese> Two tracks, one up one down, one-way path signals every X tiles
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03:57:50 <Flygon> Gallomimia: Interestingly, the most crashproof systems I've used are single track lines with crossing loops and one-way signals
03:58:02 <Flygon> I'll set up a livestream on my desktop to show what I mean, if you want
03:58:22 <Flygon> Lemme just finish drawing up a new forum avatar
03:58:42 <Flygon> Given my current one misrepresents my gender, species, choice of clothing, and eye colour
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04:40:12 <Gallomimia> flygon no it's not necessary. crossing loops are an interesting term. but i've already got a serious network with dual tracks. i'm going to try the one way signals. just a little in the dark still about how they work
04:40:41 <Flygon> I got a two-track network y'know
04:40:56 <Flygon> I'll launch OpenTTD, close TPP stream, and launch Livestream
04:40:57 <Gallomimia> is it safe to assume the "choice" of clothing being misrepresented is not in that of style but for or against?
04:41:08 <Flygon> Lemme check if the previous stream thumbnails will show NSFW stuff
04:41:11 <Gallomimia> we have a stream for tpp?
04:41:30 <Gallomimia> heh. i'm not adverse to nsfw
04:41:35 <Gallomimia> games are technically nsfw :P
04:41:52 <Gallomimia> that pretty much puts this whole channel in that category with it right ;)
04:41:57 <Flygon> Ah, alright, no thumbs
04:42:10 <Flygon> Gallomimia: I actually meant more... ahem. Non-gamey material
04:42:27 <Gallomimia> still has "play" in the title
04:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> just put "it's not me in the avatar, it's <X>" into your signature, like everybody else
04:43:26 <Flygon> "It's my unspecified species alter-ego"
04:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there was one guy who had "unlike everybody else's avatar, mine is actually me"
04:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> however, that doesn't mean it's true ;)
04:44:29 <Gallomimia> i'd like to say, this is the most friendly and welcoming and fun-to-be-in irc channel i've found so far. pleased to meet you all :)
04:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because all the evil people are not on at 6AM :p
04:47:30 <Gallomimia> :( no because i don't have flash on this computer
04:47:35 <Gallomimia> let me fire up one that does
04:47:54 <Flygon> And it's groaning at me for using too higher a res
04:48:04 <Flygon> Soooo... expect a tad choppyFPS :P
04:48:21 <Flygon> Others are invited too! :B
04:51:59 <Gallomimia> not so sure about the fidelity of my network uplink :(
04:52:40 <Gallomimia> yesterday at this time it was getting 66% packetloss and pings from 200ms-2000ms to google's freedns
04:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> just two years ago that would already hit my total bandwidth
04:53:14 <Gallomimia> yeah. something's wrong. it's having trouble loading the static elements on the livestream page
04:53:15 <Flygon> Eddi: I'm lucky to get what I got
04:53:20 <Gallomimia> something's happening now
04:54:57 <Flygon> I don't see anyone in yet
04:57:07 <Flygon> Is one of them you, Gallo?
04:57:09 <Gallomimia> everything else is loading pretty fast. including the slowest webpage in the world: facebook
04:57:21 <Gallomimia> how should i know all i got is the spinning load wheel
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04:58:31 <Flygon> When we have a decent automobile AI >_<
04:59:04 <Gallomimia> that's worth making just to put flying cars in :P
05:00:30 <Gallomimia> not loading anymore. i see a black screen
05:00:40 <Flygon> Urf, that's annoying >_<
05:00:48 <Flygon> It's really hard to explain signalling with just words and screenshots
05:01:22 <Gallomimia> try something that is "not-livestream"
05:01:39 <Flygon> I lack anything else x:
05:01:43 <Flygon> join.me is... not very good
05:01:49 <Flygon> And I've never used Twitch TV
05:02:03 <Gallomimia> there's more reasons to hate livestream and flash other than they take pains to prevent you from downloading/recording what you're viewing and they're not open source'd
05:02:13 <Gallomimia> something wrong with openVNC in view only mode?
05:02:24 <Gallomimia> yay it's a hockey ad!
05:02:34 <Gallomimia> open-virtual-network-computing
05:02:40 <Gallomimia> a standard nearly as old as irc
05:03:14 <Gallomimia> at least the hockey ad froze
05:03:28 <Gallomimia> do you think it's my connection? that's not normal for me
05:04:08 <Flygon> It's possible. We'd need to do an isolation test
05:04:11 <Gallomimia> oh haha! i'm on the wrong wifi network
05:04:35 <Gallomimia> that's annoying as hell.
05:05:45 <Gallomimia> my linux desktop is going fast and working great. couldn't figure out why my wireless laptop is gimp'ing out
05:07:12 <Gallomimia> i'm sorry too. you're running windows :(
05:08:38 <Flygon> ...nvm, Start Menu gives it away
05:09:04 <Gallomimia> i'm honestly not well versed in the flavors of windows. they all taste like nightshade to me
05:09:16 <Flygon> Anyway, what again was it that you're uncertain about with regarding to two track railways?
05:09:28 <Gallomimia> one way signalling
05:09:49 <Flygon> Can you see where I'm zoomed in to?
05:10:22 <Flygon> The split is actually a merge
05:10:23 <Gallomimia> is this block signals?
05:10:37 <Flygon> The block signals are the ones with just two arms
05:10:47 <Flygon> The ones with two arms are the one way ones
05:10:53 <Flygon> They both perform essentially the same task
05:10:59 <Gallomimia> oh. semaphor path signals
05:11:14 <Flygon> Except the one way signals allow a train to proceed if there's another in the same 'block', whereas block don't
05:11:28 <Flygon> I just use the block ones because they look cooler on one-way paths
05:12:14 <Flygon> The ones with the two arms without the sign on them can be passed from behind
05:12:23 <Gallomimia> i've yet to have enough trains to want such an intricate network. i'll have to muck something up fiercely to find out i think
05:12:45 <Flygon> I only got here through trial, error, traffic jams, and train crashes
05:12:47 <Gallomimia> that's a big damn town
05:12:56 <Gallomimia> have you a bunch of gfs?
05:13:08 <Flygon> You'd love my Europe scenario
05:13:16 <Flygon> Lemme just launch the OTTD Nightly I used for it
05:13:27 <Flygon> Unless it'll load in this one...
05:13:53 <Flygon> Oh wow, it actually loaded
05:14:00 <Gallomimia> playing more than one game at a time :) that's interesting
05:14:48 <Gallomimia> this raises 100x more questions than it answers ><
05:14:55 <Gallomimia> for example, how do you make towns grow :P
05:15:01 <Flygon> I managed to make Helsinki not only absorb such suburbs as Riihimaki, but absorb half of Finland :B
05:15:11 <Flygon> My stratergy is to build a bus network
05:15:24 <Flygon> Have at least 3 stations, and have them go in a radial route
05:15:37 <Gallomimia> around in a circle?
05:15:46 <Gallomimia> like... around the city.
05:15:50 <Flygon> See thiis town, for example with the trams?
05:16:04 <Flygon> Excuse me if the game is rather choppy
05:16:11 <Gallomimia> it's rather fast actually
05:16:13 <Flygon> I have almost 4,000 Trams and over 1,500 ships
05:16:45 <Gallomimia> 200m pounds? i thought the limit was 20m
05:17:32 <Flygon> Ended up stopping on this game
05:17:45 <Flygon> Because FRISS wasn't quite compatible with the replacement bridge set >_<
05:17:47 <Gallomimia> yeah i'm struggling with the complexity of my second game
05:18:10 <Gallomimia> i decided to start on a map of 2048x
05:18:14 <Flygon> Also, somehow it disabled Maglev after I got it
05:18:20 <Flygon> Yeah, the maps I've shown you are both 2048x
05:18:36 <Gallomimia> i struggle just to keep up with the vast number of industry closures
05:18:48 <Gallomimia> only been playing it for like 15 years game time
05:19:02 <Gallomimia> and i have a ton of cash now, just getting off the ground
05:19:14 <Flygon> This Europe one's had 140 years
05:19:16 <Gallomimia> but i'm overwhelmed with the idea of "where do i go now"
05:19:33 <Flygon> Is I build an extensive interlinking passenger network
05:19:35 <Gallomimia> i started in 2040 so i could just start with maglev
05:19:48 <Gallomimia> just trying it out. it's neat
05:19:54 <Gallomimia> but almost too fast, right?
05:20:22 <Flygon> The focus can easily become declogging stations
05:20:28 <Flygon> Than getting to them fast enough
05:20:40 <Gallomimia> i've only got 3 trains :P
05:21:01 <Gallomimia> and i'm struggling between the idea of mixing the car types and focusing on given cargo routes
05:21:18 <Gallomimia> keep them local or run around to every place on the map?
05:21:50 <Flygon> I generally keep stuff local
05:22:12 <Flygon> To run all over the map is most economically worth it when you got the cash flow to afford the initial financial hit
05:22:32 <Gallomimia> well, one train is too much to handle local industries of a given type
05:22:51 <Gallomimia> so, does this mean i need to run with mixed cars, or shorten my trains or...
05:22:56 <Gallomimia> the questions are endless!
05:24:34 <Flygon> Welcome to the world of Economics!
05:24:54 <Flygon> But if the volumes are very low
05:24:57 <Flygon> And distance very short
05:26:19 <Gallomimia> but.... flying cars! floating trains ><
05:28:36 <Gallomimia> definitely need to get into all the various addons and expansions and so on
05:28:48 <Gallomimia> but i feel like i should get a firm grasp on what i have in front of me first
05:29:11 <Flygon> Don't be afraid to start small, alright?
05:29:19 <Flygon> Unless you're Hendikins...
05:30:43 <Gallomimia> i've found the secret to vast unflappable profits early on is oil ships, with water on 2 sides of a big map, it amounts to 3-4 hundred grand per year nearly as fast as you can get them built and set up
05:32:19 <Gallomimia> there's just dozens of platforms and a refinery every screen or so
05:33:02 <Gallomimia> dunno how i lucked out with that but there's lots of cash to be had. soon as i got off my train addiction and went to build ships the cash flow issues and the bank loan evaporated
05:33:48 <Flygon> Yeah, ships take forever
05:33:53 <Flygon> But they print guranteed money!
05:34:00 <Flygon> Interestingly, the Iceland map I got
05:34:16 <Flygon> The game only sets new refineries a certain distance on land from the edge of the border
05:34:21 <Flygon> But it's all water on this map...
05:34:27 <Gallomimia> what the hell are those oblique red lines?
05:34:30 <Flygon> Cue the map having just ONE token refinery kept by the game
05:34:36 <Flygon> Uh, the red lines show passenger load
05:34:43 <Flygon> Red means I'm doing a shithouse job
05:34:50 <Flygon> Green generally means good
05:34:57 <Flygon> White means there's no riders
05:35:08 <Flygon> It's part of Cargodist
05:35:27 <Gallomimia> i thought so. i think i should put that in straight away
05:35:44 <Flygon> Only in the betas and nightlies atm
05:36:30 <Gallomimia> meh. maybe i can wait a bit
05:36:49 <Gallomimia> i'd best take a walk. obligations and such
05:38:16 <Gallomimia> if that was what i was going to do i'd stay here and launch ttd again :P
05:51:09 <Flygon> The ultimate in bank loaning
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06:50:36 <Flygon> Somehow I decided the most logical method of building a railway line from one end of Iceland to the other is through the townless desolate snowy mountain range. Instead of the bit with paying passengers.
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09:00:15 <Gallomimia> haha flygon :) that's funny
09:01:50 <Flygon> Gallomimia: This game is haaard D:
09:05:32 <JVassie> What effect will setting the daylength have on timetabling?
09:06:32 <Flygon> Depends on if you observe DST
09:10:18 <JVassie> is it essentially just a multiplier for the amount of real time an action takes?
09:13:35 <JVassie> and does that directly affect the maximum ticks of an individual waiting/loading time?
09:14:00 <Gallomimia> right. back to one way signals. they make trains only ever go down a track in one direction right?
09:14:47 <JVassie> In normal operation and without manual intervention, yes
09:15:07 <JVassie> You can manually make trains pass red signals, and manually make trains pass signals in the opposite direction
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09:15:51 <JVassie> to the potential detriment of your passengers lives of course :P
09:16:43 <Gallomimia> i've forgotten how to do that. and yeah i have no desire for it :P
09:17:16 <Gallomimia> the only time i've seen a horrific crash on train tracks in this game the first action i took after was to load the latest savefile
09:17:16 <JVassie> the little signal icon with a red cross over it on the vehicle window
09:18:05 <Gallomimia> that should be all i need to know about them to change my network to single direction traffic
09:18:50 <JVassie> you will likely also want to look at pre-signals and path-based signals too
09:19:40 <Gallomimia> one final question. i have a junction that's irk'ing me. it's a T junction, with very wide 45 degree angle turns for the turns that matter. the trains never go straight thru. always it diverts to the bottom of the T part and takes a hard 90 back to where it was going. what's the problem?
09:21:34 <JVassie> without a picture, it is hard to say
09:22:09 <Gallomimia> JVassie: i'm definitly sticking with only path signals. just trying to gather the pertinent info about them from the page with block and path signals made my head spin
09:22:20 <Gallomimia> want me to catch the trains doing it?
09:22:35 <JVassie> probably wont matter, but can do
09:23:50 <Gallomimia> game's paused right now till i can determine the next set of tracks to lay. so i got one without a train involved
09:25:19 <Gallomimia> hm. where'll i put this shot at
09:29:50 <Gallomimia> seems to have even turned out okay
09:30:26 <JVassie> oh, this is before use of one way signals?
09:30:28 <Gallomimia> i see a problem with switching to the proper track from the spur line to the northeast side
09:30:44 <Gallomimia> i'm going to lay more track and then change the signals and then buy more trains
09:30:49 <JVassie> well, if coming from the north east to the south west
09:30:55 <JVassie> ie straight through the t junction
09:30:59 <Gallomimia> wish i could run the game in slower mode
09:31:19 <JVassie> it will choose to use the long way towards dondwood west
09:31:32 <JVassie> and then 90 degree turn back to the mainline
09:31:39 <JVassie> because that route has no signals
09:31:54 <JVassie> I do believe the pathfinder prefers routes without signals
09:31:56 <Gallomimia> that's simple enough :P
09:32:41 <Gallomimia> given that there's the option for track switching at each bend it probably should have signals. i'll give it a revamp when i change it all to one way lines
09:33:57 <Flygon> You know you're too used to OpenTTD when you keep rightclicking to move webpages
09:34:01 <Gallomimia> well thanks for pointing that out. i guess i should take most of those track switching options out since it's supposed to be one way only from now on :P
09:34:40 <JVassie> I tend to pick a direction based on what side my trains drive on
09:34:51 <JVassie> so the signals are on the 'outside' of a pair of tracks
09:35:04 <Gallomimia> hmmm have to think about that. most stations are built with 2 or more platforms and go in and reverse back out
09:35:27 <JVassie> can still have single direction tracks leading to the stations
09:35:40 <Gallomimia> one way on the main lines, two way till the next switch over
09:36:19 <Gallomimia> and with the train waiting to enter stopped on the other side of the switch there will always be a way out for the train leaving
09:37:00 <Gallomimia> not in that busy hoopla of a monstrosity. but everywhere else sure :)
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09:38:51 <JVassie> basic junction and basic station entrance with PBS
09:48:30 <Gallomimia> what now there's an option to allow construction during pause??
09:50:32 <Flygon> I wish they'd fix the alignment error with that track type x.x
09:54:02 <Gallomimia> yes i'm just going thru all the options and seen it. i'm still deciding whether i want to cheat that much...
10:07:06 <Gallomimia> hi Wolf01 how's today? (tonight?)
10:07:25 <Gallomimia> say... do lorry stops with a terminus make it easier for the truck to turn round?
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10:10:50 <Wolf01> rainy-sunny-rainy again
10:12:57 <Gallomimia> dropped to below -20C here suddenly
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10:16:53 <Gallomimia> possible to turn names off in the world map? there's so many it's totally unreadable, and obscurse anything else on the map
10:17:14 <Gallomimia> oh i found it :( i feel sheepish
10:17:34 <Alberth> some are quite hidden :)
10:18:12 <Gallomimia> there's a button just for that. out of only 10 buttons. i hunted for this option and gave up presumptuously
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10:41:30 <Gallomimia> is there an easy way to remove signals the way ctrl click removes rails? seems to only change the signals.... to.... one way?
10:42:35 <JVassie> Gallomimia, press the r key
10:42:41 <JVassie> and it will enable bulldozer
10:43:31 <Gallomimia> that's the grossness i was hoping to avoid. thanks tho
10:43:53 <Gallomimia> oh i see. it only nukes signals. hot damn :)
10:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <JVassie> What effect will setting the daylength have on timetabling? <-- daylength has no effect on timetables, except possibly that the rounding is getting too rough when converting ticks to days
10:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> internally, everything is in ticks
10:54:24 <Gallomimia> blah. i'll convert my rail signals to one way tomorrow. sleep now. doing it with no sleep is gonna get me a crashed train
10:54:47 <Gallomimia> thanks to everyone for answering questions so far. g'night
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11:08:07 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause, so despite the display of time passing slower with a higher daylength, those times wont be adhered to in the timetables?
11:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: timetable times are always based on ticks, if you display days, then these days are automatically scaled inverse to daylength
11:09:16 <JVassie> so daylength 1, ticks/day 74, it takes about 2 seconds real time per minute ingame
11:10:06 <JVassie> daylength 1, tick/day 134, it takes 4 seconds real time per minute ingame
11:10:13 <JVassie> daylength 2, tick/day 134, it takes 8 seconds real time per minute ingame
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11:12:16 <JVassie> hmm, getting confused between ticks/day and ticks/minute
11:12:35 <JVassie> ticks/day not configurable
11:13:17 <JVassie> default value for ticks/minute also happens to be 74 though
11:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: in your example, the daylength 2 case would also be 4 seconds
11:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> days and minutes are completely independent
11:16:46 <JVassie> im usign the departureboard patch
11:16:55 <JVassie> which is where the ticks/minute settign comes from
11:18:10 <JVassie> unfortunately though I'm not aware of how the depboards patch changes the timetable internals though
11:20:05 <JVassie> or I suppose, probably wisest to assume depboards doesnt know about daylength
11:21:16 <JVassie> basic problem I'm trying to resolve is slowing down the passage of time ingame
11:21:28 <JVassie> specifically when it comes to the timetabling of trains
11:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: set ticks/minute so your longest round-trip time is a whole fraction of 24 hours (e.g. 12 hours, 4 hours, ...)
11:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: daylength changes how often you get new vehicle developments, and has no influence on timetables
11:34:37 <JVassie> daylength royally screws departure boards
11:36:28 <Wolf01> daylength is a plague :(
11:39:28 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause, when you say longest round-trip time, do you mean over all vehicles? Or that each vehicle's entire schedule should be a whole fraction of 24 hours?
11:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: this is not necessary at all, but it makes synchronizing different routes easier
11:46:53 <JVassie> well, I'm trying to emulate realism somewhat
11:47:04 <JVassie> so schedules are generally going to be every x-minutes
11:47:12 <JVassie> between 10 and 120 I guess
11:47:43 <JVassie> so to make that work the entire schedule would be a multiple of the x-minute repetition
11:47:58 <JVassie> problems to work around though
11:48:02 <JVassie> are 255 max orders limit
11:48:21 <JVassie> and 65535 max ticks per order
11:49:49 <JVassie> less of an issue if I dont try to factor in 24 hour timetables
11:50:56 <JVassie> but I would like to try
11:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you won't be able to change those limits
11:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> 65k ticks are almost two standard years
11:53:16 <JVassie> I guess it is not as simple as changing the var type? :P
11:53:27 <JVassie> typedef uint16 DateFract;
11:53:34 <JVassie> for the max ticks I think?
11:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you want to simulate a day/night schedule with several-hour-long waiting times, you should never need those
11:53:54 <JVassie> <JVassie> less of an issue if I dont try to factor in 24 hour timetables
11:53:54 <JVassie> <JVassie> but I would like to try
11:54:14 <JVassie> if it really is impossible, then I will have to forget day/night/24 hour
11:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> just make your 24 hours shorter :)
11:55:39 <JVassie> that a 'day' cycle last says 12 hours you mean?
11:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> if you leave it at default 74ticks/minute, then an hour is about 2 months, and 2 years is 12 hours
11:56:04 <JVassie> part of what I want to achieve means using the departure boards
11:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if you set it to 37ticks/minute, 2 years is 24 hours
11:56:19 <JVassie> so I dont need to worry about days/years of ingame time
11:57:41 <JVassie> the problem with reducing the ticks/minute is that the speed of vehicles then becomes a prohibiting factor in the trains/hour a piece of track can throughput
11:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> at 74ticks/minute, 65k ticks is about 14 hours
11:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> which defines your maximum waiting time
11:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that should suffice for any reasonable 24h timetable
11:59:23 <JVassie> I think 8 hours is likely to be the maximum needed waiting time on any single order
11:59:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you're gonna drown in passengers anyway :)
12:00:22 <JVassie> odd as it sounds, all I want to achieve is realistic timetabling :P
12:00:39 <JVassie> passenger numbers/destinations/ratings aren't on my radar as much
12:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> for a reasomably "realistic" 24h timetable you need to modify station rating and production (rush hour and night)
12:01:19 <JVassie> you can simulate rush hour and night easily enough with the schedules
12:01:25 <JVassie> more trains/hour during rush hour
12:01:55 <JVassie> at peak times for example, I'd want to be able to get a train every 3 or 4 minutes into a through platform
12:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: yes, but that is backwards. the rush-hour is not defined by more trains running, but by more passengers wanting to ride on trains :p
12:04:48 <JVassie> the visual representation of more passengers isnt as easily achievable as a departure board though :P
12:08:05 <JVassie> for example, platform 10 at clapham junction today
12:08:15 <JVassie> 1158, 1201, 1205, 1209, 1212, 1216, 1221, 1224, 1228, 1231, 1235, 1239, 1242, 1246, 1251, 1254
12:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 11/12 is usually not "rush-hour" :p
12:09:45 <JVassie> neither is saturday generally
12:09:51 <JVassie> perhaps a bad example
12:09:59 <JVassie> but 16 tph at weekend lunch time
12:10:26 <JVassie> it happens in real life was I think my point :P
12:10:34 <JVassie> and therefore something I wanted to try to simulate ingame
12:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> this probably depends on regional habits, but typical rush-hour times are something like 6-8 and 15-18
12:11:51 <JVassie> unfortunately ingame you cant really do departign and arriving in the same minute
12:12:10 <JVassie> at least I dont think
12:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can set the exact amount of ticks.
12:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but one loading step is 40 ticks, so waiting time is always a multiple of that
12:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, it would make sense to use that as base for your minutes
12:13:34 <JVassie> in order to help the simulation, having a newgrf where vehicles loaded in a single (or a double) step would help
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12:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ships and planes have faster loading steps i think
12:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: in a typical rush-hour network, loading times are a main source of delays
12:15:58 <JVassie> if you set a train to stay for 0 minutes, what does the game try to do?
12:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> 0 ticks counts as "not timetabled"
12:16:16 <JVassie> who wants to simulate delays? :P
12:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so don't do that.
12:16:37 <JVassie> so 1 minute is the minimum
12:16:49 <JVassie> so if it was 80 ticks per minute
12:16:52 <JVassie> thats 2 loading steps
12:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could set the ticks as "1 tick short of a minute", then it will display as 0 minutes
12:17:36 <JVassie> the change time box gives the input as minutes I think
12:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but you have to add that 1 tick to the travel time, otherwise you get rounding issues with your synchronisation
12:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a setting
12:18:32 <JVassie> that might just be the key
12:18:53 <JVassie> as long as I just use departure boards to display in minutes
12:18:58 <JVassie> and do all other calculations in ticks
12:22:18 <JVassie> still doesnt get around the tph problem though
12:24:11 <JVassie> basically, that unless the ticks/minute is sufficiently high, then it takes too many minutes per train
12:24:28 <Flygon> Just a note, 3-5 minute off-peak freqs happen in some areas of Japan
12:25:00 <Flygon> And some Metro systems, even in Australia, have some lines (Tram or Train) operating on such frequenies. Not on a Saturday, though. :P
12:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> real networks typically have 5 minutes between, 3 minutes in extreme cases, and shorter intervals need moving-block-signals or other magic
12:25:55 <Flygon> Yea, 5 is the most optimistic here. 3 encounters issues with both not enough trains available and capacity (as Metro found out when they tried publishing an ambitious timetable...)
12:26:23 <JVassie> well, like you saw above
12:26:32 <JVassie> clapham junction is gettign traisn through in 3 minute intervals
12:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the S-Bahn trunk line in Munich has 30 trains per hour
12:27:23 <JVassie> 2 platforms each direction at the Hbf isnt it?
12:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (they do use some magic signalling)
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12:28:58 <JVassie> oh no, it isn just 1 platform each way
12:29:05 <JVassie> thats some tight scheduling
12:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i think they have 1 track per direction, but platforms on both sides to speed up loading/unloading
12:32:19 <JVassie> the 'spanish solution' wikipedia calls it :P
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12:32:36 <Flygon> (I should note that Trams only get insanely good frequencies here due to relying both purely on slow speeds and zero signalling in dense areas... so basically. They're high frequency busses :B)
12:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> when i was in munich, i didn't use the S-Bahn though, so i don't really know
12:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: trams are typically drive-on-sight instead of drive-on-signal
12:33:36 <Flygon> Tram signals only exist here in very exemptional cases
12:33:53 <Flygon> Such as level crossings, directions, and specific standard traffic signals
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12:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> they exist here on overland lines which exceed 50km/h
12:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but they stole the cabling too often, so they just downgraded the line to 50km/h and discontinued the signals
12:35:25 <JVassie> prevalent problem in EU
12:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> copper is just too valuable
12:36:06 <Flygon> (Drive on sight here operates on up to 80-90km/h, no problems. Though, those lines have long enough distances without being at-grade that it's basically a trainline. Amusingly, this means they have a higher top speed than the Xtraps usually do...)
12:36:13 <JVassie> endless issues in the UK with signalling problems because vandals have stolen the cabling
12:36:39 <Flygon> Here, we're gradually replacing everything with aluminium (for overhead lines. Did I mention people try to seal 1500V live lines?) and Fibre Optics
12:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: people even steal 15kV and 25kV wires :)
12:37:39 <Flygon> Point is, there's a special type of stupid for anyone pushing over 500V
12:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that usually ends deadly if they are not professionals
12:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there are trams that go over 80km/h here. there are tram/train hybrids which go faster if in train mode
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12:44:01 <Flygon> We have had individual Trams go over 110km/h here
12:44:18 <Flygon> iirc, the PCC/W-Class hybrid that MMTB tested around the 1950s and 1960s
12:44:41 <Flygon> Unsure if their direct successor (Z1 and Z2-class) have been tested @ over 90 though
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12:44:59 <Flygon> No real point really. Stops too close together.
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13:17:16 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 14 hours, 49 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Pikka> I'll grab the new alpha anon
13:28:01 <Alberth> false, he left 5 minutes before you arrived, andy
13:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> actually Pokka is still here :)
13:42:51 <JVassie> hmm, so Eddi|zuHause, if i timetable in ticks, and I set ticks/min to 160 for example, I can set a stop for 80 ticks right?
13:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> though at 160 your maximum wait time would be just under 7 hours
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14:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also chain two wait orders, especially at a terminal station, where the train immediately is at the destination if it just turned around
14:14:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26384 trunk/src/string.cpp (2014-03-01 14:14:41 UTC)
14:14:48 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5924]: Return correct values from ICU iterators in case of leading or trailing whitespace
14:26:25 <JVassie> hmm good idea Eddi|zuHause :D
14:26:29 <JVassie> or if its in a siding somewhere
14:26:33 <JVassie> i'd never thought of that
14:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it must be end of the track, otherwise the train leaves and tries to make a loop to get back to the station
14:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it also works with stop at beginning/end of platform
14:31:12 <JVassie> will have to try that
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15:58:08 <JVassie> Didnt get to trying it yet
15:58:17 <JVassie> the perils of multitasking
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17:16:22 <alluke> iron horse has train car with two cargos
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17:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. articulated vehicles can do that
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17:54:06 <alluke> that car aint articulated
18:02:11 <frosch123> not everything is what it looks like :p
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18:19:36 <andythenorth> and not everything shows cargo in the depot view :(
18:19:47 <andythenorth> and not everything can be accurately drag-and-dropped in depot view either
18:22:09 <frosch123> yeah, someone needs to code "draw artic vehicle at mouse cursor"
18:23:25 <andythenorth> I assumed it was something I was doing wrong
18:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with it?
18:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the gap between the vehicles that you drop your vehicle in is only the first part of the articulated vehicle, so it shouldn't be too short
18:26:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: have you actually tested with IH? o_O
18:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i have tested stuff in CETS
18:26:47 <andythenorth> dragging accurately is near-impossible in IH (I use TTD base set with small buttons)
18:26:57 <andythenorth> I assume it's because offsets are borked still
18:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the cursor takes on the sprite of the first vehicle part, and the gap in the new vehicle chain for dropping into is much shorter than the vehicle sprite
18:27:54 <andythenorth> that would make sense
18:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i use a special GUI sprite for the first vehicle part specifically for dragging in depots. because dragging invisible sprites is somewhat of a hassle :p
18:30:14 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that part was fixed 1.5 years ago or so
18:30:30 <frosch123> the gap for dragging is right
18:30:34 <frosch123> just the cursor is lagging
18:32:41 <andythenorth> ...my favourite features recently are all ui fixes...
18:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, looks better now :)
18:34:58 <andythenorth> Eddi's suggestion about showing road tile direction on construction is a good one
18:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 5 years old, and not even mine?
18:35:35 <andythenorth> not implemented though is it :)
18:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly convinced there were sprites on the forum
18:36:51 <andythenorth> if there aren't I could draw them
18:37:08 <andythenorth> I keep failing at patches though :P
18:40:59 <frosch123> yup, there are sprites
18:41:05 <frosch123> should be in my todo bookmarks :p
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26385 trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt (2014-03-01 18:45:10 UTC)
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19 <DorpsGek> swedish - 6 changes by Joel_A
18:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the second set of sprites seems better
19:01:02 <frosch123> it does not have half tiles though
19:02:02 <frosch123> i only counted sprites, but actually it has only the short ones, and no long road sporites
19:07:38 <frosch123> hmm, i should look up widelands hotkey
19:09:25 <frosch123> uh, it does not seem to have any which i do not already know
19:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the only hotkeys i ever used were c,s and space
19:14:03 <frosch123> yes, i was hoping for a hotkey for dismantle
19:24:38 <Supercheese> Do we have drag&drop newobjects yet?
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19:35:40 <andythenorth> fix IH, or keep trying to beat SV in a game? o_O
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19:57:03 <andythenorth> did I cause that? o_O
19:57:40 <Wolf01> no, it was __ln__ for sure
20:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> what do they say about all play and no work?
20:04:12 <andythenorth> keeps you from getting old?
20:11:53 <Alberth> andy, did you change chips 1.4.0 not to display the most cargo at the stations?
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20:12:30 <andythenorth> I wouldn't know how tbh :)
20:12:35 <andythenorth> nfo stations are a world of their own
20:12:42 <andythenorth> it's amazing that there are so many station sets
20:12:58 <andythenorth> station display is a mess :P
20:26:26 <andythenorth> IH alpha-3 released
20:26:35 <andythenorth> now I can do something less useful
20:50:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: would reloading newgrfs cause SV to change the target cargo?
20:51:20 <frosch123> if you change cargo ids :p
20:51:42 <andythenorth> didn't change FIRS, just IH
20:51:48 <andythenorth> but eh, all bets are off
20:52:02 <frosch123> well, unlikely, else firs would be completely broken :p
20:52:02 <andythenorth> loaded some bug fixes :P
20:52:13 <andythenorth> something caused SV to switch cargo
20:54:41 <frosch123> oh, i forgot to build a stone mason
20:55:15 <frosch123> i ran out of marble columns
20:55:18 <andythenorth> oh some other game :P
21:00:05 <frosch123> btw. our gaelic translator is also involved with widelands
21:04:24 <Gallomimia> what's the roadmap of release of the new beta version look like? any kind of schedule for you guys or just as it happens?
21:05:13 <frosch123> it has always been "just as it happens"
21:05:30 <Gallomimia> also, i'm putting one way signals on my tracks right now. is it recommended i start a long segment with a signal, or just before junctions?
21:05:51 <Gallomimia> alright good to know
21:06:02 <frosch123> if you use path signals, always leave enough room for a whole train behind each junction without any signals
21:06:26 <frosch123> so if the train has to stop, it does not block the junction
21:06:45 <Gallomimia> yeah i've seen how that causes problems for sure
21:07:16 <Gallomimia> the game i'm playing right now is too much train and not enough truck and transfer
21:07:57 <Gallomimia> i don't feel like trying the latter till i dive into the beta with that.... cargodist
21:08:12 * andythenorth really has to learn cdist
21:08:38 <Gallomimia> i think i'll do that once i get this computer changed over to run off a raid instead of the single drive
21:08:55 <Gallomimia> and then i think i'll download the source and read it.... C++ right?
21:09:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: you have to learn to service your stations properly :p
21:09:19 <andythenorth> and do complicated routing
21:10:17 <andythenorth> I've tried it in three games
21:10:36 <andythenorth> I'm not really smart enough to use it though
21:10:46 <Gallomimia> that's bold of you to admit
21:11:46 <frosch123> Gallomimia: it's kind of required for a boss
21:12:05 <frosch123> a boss who thinks he is smarter than his employees is likely no good boss
21:14:02 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: your prophecy is still holding
21:21:57 <Gallomimia> HAH. if you say so.... clearly you haven't met any of the bosses i know
21:22:36 <Gallomimia> don't get me wrong, i agree that it's required. but clearly it's not since so many are getting away without it
21:24:02 <frosch123> it kind of depends on the management level
21:24:56 <frosch123> for those responsible for > 150 employees it does not matter anymore
21:25:35 <frosch123> i was referring to management levels who actually manage employees
21:25:58 <Gallomimia> the guy you work closely with. yeah
21:25:58 <frosch123> not those who try to fool managers of other companies
21:26:34 <Gallomimia> the popular qualification going around these days is to have been hit in the head with a brick at least three times :(
21:27:23 <frosch123> well, that is not the worst thing if your main job is to hit other managers with a brick
21:30:14 * andythenorth loves sea-level canals
21:31:13 * frosch123 is worried that andy uses them to run river ships on sea
21:33:12 <andythenorth> I use them to build sea-level airports and train stations
21:37:10 <andythenorth> stupid noise limit
21:38:54 <Supercheese> Use OGFX+ airports, disable noise limit
21:39:16 <Supercheese> and/or date limits
21:45:53 <Gallomimia> uh... stations have signals built in for leaving trains right? what can i assume about those?
21:46:23 <frosch123> it's more like reversing trains have a built-in path signal
21:46:44 <frosch123> so in terminal stations you can skip building path signals on the station side
21:46:50 <frosch123> but in ro-ro you cannot
21:47:14 <Supercheese> terminus stations have their share of problems, though
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21:52:29 <Gallomimia> i think that means i'll have a problem. very congested area. too many junctions and stations all close together
21:52:40 <Gallomimia> oh well. this game is a learning experience
21:53:25 <Gallomimia> i think i'll signal it as best i can and see what happens
21:53:44 <Gallomimia> maybe a bypass tunnel is in order. first i wanna load it up with trains and see how bad it gets
21:53:45 <Supercheese> I find path signals placed in "safe stopping" places cover a multitude of sins
21:54:35 <Gallomimia> alas there's no safe stopping places here. there's 2 t junctions close together, a bag station, and a ro-ro. almost nowhere for a train to stop in that mess.
21:55:05 <Gallomimia> i think one way to fix it would be to move one of the T junctions over to make an X junction
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22:38:51 <Gallomimia> i wish you could set trains to uncouple cars and switch loadout
22:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's open source, do it! :p
22:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (this is probably the hardest thing you could do with the game)
22:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> i ran out of marble columns <-- i usually do that even with a stonemason :)
22:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> by some weird random-ism i almost always get imperium when starting random
23:03:50 <Gallomimia> Eddi|zuHause: you're right! i was actually thinking it might be easier to make the game support multicore cpu's than do that!
23:04:17 <__ln__> oh, it wasn't exactly news
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continue to next day ⏵
