IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-02-08
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00:18:10 <Pikka> I crashed OpenTTD, haven't done that for a while.
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01:53:42 <Pikka> spose I should update my nightly just to make sure
01:55:25 <Japa__> Also stop being Brittany.
04:39:50 <Pikka> it's too warm for this many mathematics, I'm turning the AC on...
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07:21:51 <Pikka> AIs can't change their company colours? D:
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07:25:14 <slee> ok, time to go attempt a sneak-attack on the wife and fail then cry myself to sleep
07:27:07 <Pikka> why can't AI's change their company colour?
07:54:08 <Pikka> I'm improving my style, taking repetitive bits from different parts of the code and turning them into a single function
07:54:12 <Pikka> this is where bugs are born
07:54:26 <andythenorth> that is all I do
07:54:31 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd be bored :P
07:54:35 <andythenorth> and I'd have to do drawing
07:56:27 <Pikka> amazingly, I moved some code and it didn't break
07:56:33 <Pikka> I'm always suspicious when that happens
07:57:00 <andythenorth> do you have regression tests? o_O
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08:07:08 <Pikka> I have "restarting the AI and seeing if it crashes"
08:09:07 <andythenorth> I have no regression tests either :)
08:09:21 <andythenorth> but I have some code that whines at me if I make certain silly mistakes
08:10:02 * andythenorth bbl, lego-ish children-ish things to do
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08:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i noticed this before... planetmaker has this habit of using "feasible" when "possible" would be more appropriate
08:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i would use "feasible" in the sense of "could be made possible"
08:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> just because something is not possible right now doesn't mean it's not feasible
08:41:23 <Elyon> is using variable 7E (procedure call) with variable 7B (pass argument from computational value) feasible, then? :D
08:44:03 <Pikka> Eddi: I, on the other hand, would have used those two words the other way around :)
08:47:01 <Pikka> I thinik my AI may actually be finished. :o unless someone can point out where I've missed that AIs can change company colours...
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08:49:38 <Elyon> collect meaningful data about its surroundings, then discards this and drives into walls?
08:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: it's possible (:p) that i have a completely wrong understanding of what these words mean
08:54:33 <Pikka> I would interpret "possible" as "could/may/will theoretically be done" and "feasable" as "could/may/will actually be done"
08:55:27 <planetmaker> satisfied, Eddi|zuHause ;)
08:55:31 <Elyon> but something may be possible without being feasible
08:56:06 <planetmaker> feasible means 'machbar' and possible means 'möglich'
08:56:45 <planetmaker> doable is about a synonym for feasible, I think
08:56:59 <planetmaker> possible has a different direction
08:57:05 <Elyon> that's what I think, as well, by my understanding of the words "mach" and "bar" :p
08:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt: everybody else is wrong :p
08:57:21 <Elyon> the danish word is probably "muligt"
08:58:27 <Elyon> planetmaker: I am beginning to understand NFO stations! :D
08:59:19 <Elyon> also, this place seems dead for days sometimes ...
08:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> let's just stick with: "i'm way too theoretically aligned to use the word 'feasible' in any meaningful context"
09:00:08 <planetmaker> Hardly any day passes with random people like us talking here. More or often less on-topic :P
09:01:21 <planetmaker> but sure enough not every day much happens. People have lives. And different times
09:02:15 <Elyon> question: is the 7B/7E variable conundrum to avoid branching in newgrfs?
09:02:24 <Elyon> because it would be rather useful!
09:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what do these variables do?
09:04:47 <Elyon> 7E is procedure call, 7B reads the parameter of its variable from the accumulator
09:05:28 <Elyon> so doing 7B 7E would go to the procedure as indicated by the accumulator, instead of a hardcoded procedure
09:06:04 <Elyon> but 7B specifically does not support `7B` or `7E`
09:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't just use register 0x100 for that?
09:08:23 <Elyon> huh? I can't find any documentation on that, all I can find says that 0x100-0x10F is for passing extra data to some variables - not which ones
09:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, why not write stuff to a register, and call a function that reads this register and branches to the correct function?
09:10:10 <Pikka> that sounds familiar...
09:10:13 <Elyon> how would I branch? Ranges in a standard varaction2?
09:11:04 <Elyon> hmm. That would work, I guess.
09:11:17 <Elyon> or; of course it would! Thanks, don't know why I didn't think of that
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12:14:56 <andythenorth> all things are possible
12:14:59 <andythenorth> not all things are feasible
12:15:18 * andythenorth suspects that in fact not all things are possible
12:15:37 <andythenorth> measuring the velocity and position of a particle
12:15:56 <andythenorth> knowing the state of a cat in a box
12:16:42 <Alberth> going faster than the speed of light
12:16:54 <planetmaker> no problem to go faster than light
12:17:05 <MNIM> andythenorth: isn't it the other way round?
12:17:05 <andythenorth> already things go faster than light
12:17:09 <planetmaker> except you cannot do that in vacuum *and* transmit information
12:17:56 <Alberth> impossible things just don't exist :)
12:18:18 <MNIM> you measure the state of the cat, not the particle.
12:18:22 <andythenorth> some possible things also don't exist
12:18:49 <MNIM> NewStations? since when does that not exist?
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12:20:47 <andythenorth> the voxel tool looks nice
12:20:53 <andythenorth> does it do the right proportions?
12:21:28 <Alberth> doesn't "New" indicate "we hate the existing feature, it should be rebuild from scratch" ?
12:21:40 <Alberth> it looks a lot like pixa
12:21:53 <andythenorth> "New" implies it will be discussed but never done
12:22:11 <andythenorth> we should talke more about OldButLessCrappy
12:23:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it has a graphical editor in it? Or everything is typing numbers?
12:23:48 <planetmaker> try the link he provided. Or look at the screen I attached. Graphical
12:24:15 <planetmaker> quite nice tool really
12:24:24 <planetmaker> makes it quick to draw vehicles
12:24:40 <planetmaker> how easy it is to make it appear also really nice... dunno :)
12:25:00 <andythenorth> tool is irrelevant, except how easy it is to use :D
12:30:01 <andythenorth> it's pretty easy :)
12:30:08 <andythenorth> makes certain assumptions about symetry though
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12:53:00 <frosch123> yay, kdiff3 has a line matching preprocessing command
12:53:19 <planetmaker> kdiff3 is nice, yes :)
12:53:49 <frosch123> can i export the diff view somehow though?
12:55:15 <planetmaker> hm... that I don't know :)
12:56:07 <planetmaker> merges got much easier since I use kdiff3 as my merge tool, though
12:56:33 <frosch123> well, i am not using it for merging :p
12:56:40 <frosch123> i diffed the english.txt thingie
12:57:01 <planetmaker> ah, that. too many {NBSP} for my liking
12:57:23 <frosch123> yes, i killed those with sed
12:57:31 <frosch123> there eddi is absolutely right
12:57:43 <frosch123> that is a word user change :p
12:58:04 <frosch123> in theory someone can draw all those fancy characters for the sprite font
12:58:11 <frosch123> but the nbsp padding is wrong
12:58:56 <planetmaker> yes. If it's used in another string: then it needs be done there. If it's at the end or beginning: it's window layout
13:02:59 <Japa> Well, that was relatively easy.
13:03:31 <planetmaker> Japa, with changed size it also works for 4x sprites ,or?
13:04:49 <frosch123> you need to shade the sides differently anyway alter on
13:05:00 <planetmaker> there are settings for sprite size
13:05:13 <frosch123> so you cannot use it for the final sprite, can you?
13:05:27 <Japa> frosch123, it shades it.
13:05:57 <planetmaker> I'm actually pondering whether it might live well on a DevZone page
13:06:09 <Japa> It's a pain in the ass on larger sizes, though
13:06:22 <Japa> it becomes really slow, and the drawing limitations become more of a problem
13:07:05 <MNIM> question: what makes it better than making a 3d model and rendering that?
13:08:02 <planetmaker> question: what makes 3d modeling and rendering that better than it?
13:09:10 <frosch123> MNIM: a modeller is for shapes
13:09:16 <frosch123> train shapes are all the same
13:09:26 <frosch123> this is a texture editor with a default shape
13:09:42 <frosch123> so a modeller is useless, there is no shape to model
13:10:12 <Japa> frosch123, actually, you make the shape too.
13:10:30 <frosch123> it's always a box :)
13:10:45 <frosch123> hmm, then i should play more
13:10:51 <Japa> there's some slice options above that you can play with.
13:11:19 <Japa> Notice the shape of the roof in my screenshot
13:13:26 <frosch123> hmm, maybe i misunderstood the tool completely last night
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13:22:49 <MNIM> frosch123: well, you could just use a standard model for that, too.
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13:48:51 <frosch123> i made all sides 50% grey
13:53:59 <planetmaker> Zeph said it's 100% javascript. So all the code is in the website you view :)
13:57:46 <Elyon> is there a way for me to check milliseconds per frame (or just fps)? If so, is there a way for me to check what parts of the game took how long to compute?
13:59:42 <planetmaker> the game won't profit from more fps. And will simply run slower when cpu is at 100%
14:00:15 <Elyon> yes, I am interested in how slow and what's slowing it down ^-^;
14:00:39 <planetmaker> you need to compile the game then yourself
14:05:03 <frosch123> plus kcachekrind for result viewing ofc
14:05:31 <frosch123> mind the "call" vs. "cache"
14:05:46 <frosch123> there is also cachegrind, but usually you want callgrind
14:05:56 <frosch123> kcachegrind visualises for both
14:06:40 <Elyon> okay alright, thanks :) On it now
14:07:13 <frosch123> though i think someone ported it to osx
14:09:35 <Elyon> no worries, already up and running :)
14:11:48 <frosch123> you will need a debug build of ottd, ideally with optimisation enabled
14:12:02 <frosch123> and you should start ottd with parameter "-v sdl:no_threads"
14:12:09 <frosch123> it's far more useable that way
14:12:30 <frosch123> i.e. "valgrind --tool callgrind -- bin/openttd -v sdl:no_threads"
14:12:35 <fonsinchen> You'll still need a lot of patience, though.
14:12:59 <fonsinchen> There's also gprof
14:13:46 <fonsinchen> It's less accurate but to run it you just have to do "make run-prof"
14:14:13 <fonsinchen> and it executes at near "normal" time.
14:17:19 <Elyon> frosch123, fonsinchen, I see. I think I've already found my bottleneck though - or confirmed it anyway
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14:27:41 <planetmaker> -STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT :Exit
14:27:41 <planetmaker> +STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT :Quit Open Transport Tycoon <--- aaaaaaaah!
14:30:33 <Taede> openttd != open transport tycoon deluxe
14:30:40 <planetmaker> that suggested string change makes my head hurt badly
14:31:10 <Elyon> the ttd is not really an abbreviation (anymore), is it?
14:31:21 <planetmaker> officially never has been
14:31:25 <planetmaker> related to this game
14:31:31 <planetmaker> for copyright reasons
14:31:36 <Elyon> that makes perfect sense
14:31:37 <planetmaker> or trademark. Or whatever reasons
14:32:25 <Elyon> so what you pasted is a proposed string change?
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14:32:57 <planetmaker> frosch was so kind to actually make it nicely readible
14:36:13 <planetmaker> I didn't find any change where the removal of the colon is sensible
14:36:50 <Elyon> pity when someone puts in a lot of work for something that doesn't quite work out
14:41:24 <Elyon> on that note: turns out running thousands of advanced varaction2 operations per tile was a bit much
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14:59:28 <planetmaker> as normal part of NewGRF debug tools?
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15:17:19 <frosch123> we should turn ottd into a newgrf dev engine
15:17:52 <planetmaker> and add gimp sources
15:21:10 * andythenorth has missed something :P
15:21:17 <andythenorth> are we editing vehicles in game now?
15:22:08 <andythenorth> presumably if openttd can parse newgrf, it could dump it back to a file too :P
15:26:29 <andythenorth> would give new meaning to "don't change newgrfs on a running game" :P
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16:17:14 <frosch123> hmm, it's "5 head of livestock", not "5 heads of livestock" ?
16:18:58 <frosch123> you need more trains
16:19:16 <Elyon> you can't tell how many trains I have~
16:19:30 <Elyon> although evidently, not enough
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16:19:48 <planetmaker> that's insane, Elyon ;)
16:19:53 <frosch123> i guess V would claim "not enough trains" is a tautology
16:20:06 <Elyon> I messed up somewhere and accidentally enabled all tile subzones as being pigs
16:20:11 <planetmaker> not enough beer surely
16:21:00 <frosch123> maybe the trains can flow through a pile of goods and end up loaded on the other end
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16:36:56 <Elyon> how much space is alright to use per repo?
16:37:09 <Elyon> is, say, 10 MB for a repo alright?
16:38:23 <frosch123> all the 32bpp sets are way beyond 1GB
16:39:56 <frosch123> 108M nuts, 71M heqs, 87M fish, 89M firs, 79M ogfx, 1.3G ogfx-trains, 2.9G zbase
16:40:20 <Elyon> so what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about anything less than 50
16:40:32 <Elyon> also woah, 2.9G zbase o_o
16:40:41 <frosch123> i am not sure whether you mean the complete repo, or a single revision
16:41:12 <Alberth> why would you want to store generated code, store the generator instead
16:41:21 <frosch123> but i wouldn't know why space should be an issue
16:41:30 <Elyon> Alberth: it's nondeterministic. But you're right, actually
16:41:45 <frosch123> nondeterministic generation :p
16:41:56 <frosch123> that sounds like i will refuse to debug that :)
16:42:10 <Elyon> it's for generating random-looking tile layouts
16:42:38 <Elyon> Alberth: but I will follow your advice and ignore the generated code
16:44:47 <Elyon> actually no. It's only a few MB. I will strip the file from the repo if it ever becomes a problem, but I don't want to force people to install an interpreter just for running a generator, just to compile the newgrf :)
16:45:29 <Elyon> *or* I could make the generator deterministic
16:48:44 <planetmaker> Elyon, space is not much a problem and you will not be in trouble as long as you don't use it as binary dump :)
16:51:06 <Elyon> planetmaker: I wasn't planning on doing that, but I've taken measures to remove the generated code anyway :)
16:54:24 <planetmaker> well. Don't add generated stuff. Add the generator instead :)
16:55:13 <frosch123> if the generation is non-deterministic, he has to add the generated stuff
16:56:38 <planetmaker> generation is non-deterministic here?
16:57:06 <planetmaker> I guess I should have read back completely :)
16:57:14 <Elyon> nah, I'm making it deterministic
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18:46:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26318 /trunk/src/lang (8 files) (2014-02-08 18:46:35 UTC)
18:46:50 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:51 <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 1 changes by R2dical
18:46:52 <DorpsGek> catalan - 34 changes by juanjo
18:46:53 <DorpsGek> hebrew - 61 changes by oofnik
18:46:54 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:55 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:46:56 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:46:57 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 2 changes by GunChleoc
18:46:58 <DorpsGek> swedish - 2 changes by spacejens
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19:33:53 * andythenorth is very bored of unfinished ships
19:34:16 <andythenorth> if the base graphics were done I could start doing cargo stuff with PIL
19:36:00 <andythenorth> has anyone here tried Squid?
19:37:00 <Alberth> haven't played with it for a while
19:37:35 <Miauw> I have a train station and trains sometimes randomly rotate in it
19:37:39 <Miauw> And then they can't find a way to get out
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