IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-01-17
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01:25:51 <peter1138> Grrr, fucking train prices
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01:46:36 <dkOpenTTD> Is it possible to enable the temperate vehicles such as electric trains in the subarctic climate?
02:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if you wait more than 10 minutes for an answer in the middle of the night
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03:01:25 <nicfer> I'm trying to run openttd on xubuntu 13.10 and I get an error about a missing libsdl file but I have installed libsdl1.2debian
03:04:40 <nicfer> the missing file is libSDL-1.2.so.0
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09:43:50 <Xaroth|Work> waiting for weekend to save me
09:54:42 <Tuhin> i started a game, passed few years in game but not competitor shows up
09:54:53 <Xaroth|Work> are they enabled?
09:55:54 <Xaroth|Work> that... i don't know :P
09:56:07 <Tuhin> now it says no suitable Ais found
09:56:17 <planetmaker> Tuhin, yes, you need to download AIs first
09:56:26 <planetmaker> there's quite a few with different strengths etc
09:56:37 <planetmaker> you can do so from ingame, not difficult, just two clicks away
09:56:52 <Tuhin> so which is balanced.. i dont want any super Ai who crashes my bus with his trains....
09:56:53 <planetmaker> checkout our wiki for AI comparison chart, if you need a guide
09:57:17 <planetmaker> such AI doesn't exist really. They all play fair
10:03:40 <Tuhin> btw the 1st plane i bought in 1st game crashed on 1st flight.....
10:04:16 <Tuhin> i think the game makes too frequent plane crashes
10:04:34 <Flygon> This is Flygon. And Flygon is going to ask a reeeaaally reallllly dumb question. You will be absolutely astounded by how dumb it is. And 0.1% isn't too frequent.
10:05:18 <Flygon> If a rail vehicle has a x-Hydralic geared transmission (eg. switching to 2nd gear from 1st @ 65km/h, then 2nd gear to 3rd @ 130km/h, for a maximum speed of 200km/h)
10:05:43 <Flygon> Does it still have a singular tractive effort in an OpenTTD context?
10:05:56 <Flygon> Or does the NewGRF format somehow account for this?
10:06:41 <Xaroth|Work> you can disable plane crashes iirc
10:07:09 <Flygon> It's in the Advanced Controls/Options
10:09:58 <Tuhin> yes i eventuay did.. but i expected balanced natural game..without cheats...
10:10:26 <Tuhin> in original TT, it was rare and was really like accident all of a sudden....
10:10:51 <Tuhin> but in OpenTT it happeded too frequently in "Normal" setting
10:11:57 <Tuhin> planetmaker, i downloaded AI NoCab = it buillds all kind of stuff
10:13:21 <juzza1> Flygon: probably no newgrf author has bothered to code variable TE depending on driving speed
10:13:39 <Flygon> Well, if a complete Victoria or Australia set happens
10:13:48 <Flygon> That elephant in the room's gonna needa jabbing
10:13:55 <Flygon> It's a veeeeeeery popular transmission here
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10:14:18 <Flygon> I'd even bet money we'll wind up with an Electric-Hydralic HST EMU by 2025 for the Geelong line
10:15:16 <Flygon> So, the possibility exists, but hasn't been tried...
10:15:34 <Flygon> juzza1: The real confusion comes in, when you consider that each gear costs a different amount to run
10:15:43 <Flygon> And that the onboard computer changes gearchanges depending on speed
10:16:15 <planetmaker> Flygon, honestly, changing the TE for that purpose is a completely clear case of over-engineered
10:16:18 <Flygon> eg. 1st gear switches to 2nd anywhere from 65km/h to 90km/h, and 2nd to 3rd anywhere from 100km/h to 140km/h
10:16:52 <Flygon> planetmaker: Well, it worked. They accelerate over 3x faster than the ICE-TD with the same top speed!~
10:17:13 <planetmaker> I don't talk of real life, I talk of NewGRFs :)
10:17:43 <Flygon> But wouldn't having it locked to the 1st gear acceleration rate render the DMU waaay overpowered?
10:18:03 <Flygon> Considering it'd accelerate as fast/faster than a majority of Australia's EMU sets x.x
10:18:40 <Tuhin> what ai u all use/installed?
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10:21:44 <juzza1> Flygon: possibly, if you insist on copying stats 1:1
10:21:59 <Flygon> I'm a stickler for realism
10:22:08 <Flygon> I'm even more of a stickler for being lazy
10:22:18 <Flygon> So nothing'll come of this for at least 36 months anyway x3
10:22:38 <Flygon> I really do hope we make the Electric-Hydralic HST, either way...
10:22:48 <[1]Tuhin> Flygon, maybe u can provide the dev team with some speed/gear numbers and they can implement
10:22:53 <Flygon> 1.2m/s+ for a 200-210k/h train would be pretty neat
10:23:26 <Flygon> ...assuming that the standard Diesel-Hydralic style transmission wouldn't explode
10:23:47 <Flygon> Tuhin: The Ausset one?
10:24:56 <[1]Tuhin> Ausset AI ?? i cant find such name
10:25:18 <Flygon> I thought you were talking about a train set
10:25:25 <Flygon> And I am very sorry x:
10:26:36 <[1]Tuhin> so, which AI u all use/like
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10:28:59 <Flygon> I've typically played solo or against other players x:
10:32:56 <Tuhin> i haven't tried multi yet
10:34:56 <Tuhin> how do i decide which server will be good for me...i got hundreds in list
10:40:53 <Xaroth|Work> by checking them out?
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10:54:14 <Tuhin> i joined one and there was none
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11:56:33 <dihedral> <Xaroth|Work> you? <- could be busier than i am :-P
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13:10:03 <Andreas> Is there any way for a gs to know who funded an industry?
13:16:44 <Andreas> I am trying to expand on krinn's award gs by adding some awards. I want to add an award for funding certain industries. So far all I could find is the IndustryOpen event
13:17:14 <Andreas> but that does not tell who funded it (or even if it was placed randomly by the game)
13:17:36 <Andreas> so I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction
13:17:43 <planetmaker> hm... actually... not sure anymore. An industry can decide who may found it. Not sure that the founder is actually remembered anywhere, though
13:19:11 <Andreas> would it be possible in some way to intercept the DoCommand for funding an industry?
13:21:18 <Pikka> planetmaker, it is, I think.
13:22:04 <Pikka> or at least it is known at the time it's founded, I seem to remember a newgrf that gave an industry your company colour when you built it.
13:22:16 <Pikka> perhaps I'm dreaming though, I just got up. :)
13:22:22 <planetmaker> Pikka, yes, it is. The (internal) struct knows owner and founder
13:22:38 <planetmaker> with a remark that owner should always be OWNER_NONE ;)
13:22:58 <planetmaker> Andreas, not sure what event ET_INDUSTRY_OPEN reports
13:24:00 <planetmaker> seems only IndustryID
13:24:23 <planetmaker> Seems you need to find the GS thread in the forums and see whether that idea / request is already there
13:24:57 <planetmaker> Andreas, the easiest way would be to implement a function which returns the founder of an industry; that function simply doesn't seem to exist
13:25:45 <planetmaker> but take my word with a grain of salt. I'm not very well aquainted with the scripts api
13:26:06 <Andreas> Thankyou. Yeah, I allready tried EY_INDUSTRY_OPEN, and I made it give a message when an industry opens telling : {INDUSTRY} has been opened!
13:26:43 <Andreas> but I could not find anything in relation to the founder indeed
13:29:39 <Andreas> I know the xShunter plugin by xOR gives achievements for funding industries, but I think I recall that xShunter achievements are based on the DoCommands sent...
13:44:07 <Xaroth|Work> sounds more like "dirty hack" :|
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13:52:32 <Andreas> well I suppose it is, but on the other hand, a lot of things that it implements are not possible in GS (due to api and other limitations) so, if they want to use the "oficcial" road they have to: 1) suggest the new functionality 2) wait for devs to aprove/disaprove 3) wait for it to be implemented. This takes a lot of time. Also if you want to appeal to the average player, it is best to stick to trunk, which makes the road from suggestion to impl
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15:49:18 <Belugas> sir Pikka! Are you still sweating? I heard you had quite a heat wave recently
15:49:37 <Pikka> the latest one wasn't so bad up here, more down south
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16:18:49 <jamesss> Anyone know how to stop the OSx menu bar and dock bar showing when trying to scroll up and down while in fullscreen mode?
16:19:46 <Xaroth|Work> I take it you want us to exclude the easy two answers? (being "Don't use OSx" and "Don't play fullscreen")
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16:21:58 <Rubidium> can't you make the window "always on top"? Although... I reckon you need a title bar for that, so I fear that won't work either
16:23:21 <jamesss> Xaroth|Work: yes please!
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16:26:16 <MNIM> jamesss: how about "Openttd isn't supported for OSX"?
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16:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> jamesss: well if you find one, please let us know
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16:38:50 <jamesss> looking around and so far not found any way around it.
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18:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> random idea: "town-classes" (town/city/village/...) are influenced by different amount of maximum stations (e.g. village: 1, town: 5, city: 10) regarding growth acceleration
18:30:56 <Andreas> sounds interesting but would make it even easier than in allready is to grow towns
18:31:25 <Andreas> and I hear more about towns growing to fast than the other way arround
18:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly, towns may switch class randomly (similar to random industry production) to a lower or higher class
18:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well the problem is not that towns grow too fast, but that they all grow equally fast
18:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no problem with some towns getting huge, but others should stay small so there are rural areas left in late game
18:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and this could completely replace the (totally arbitrary) "city growth factor"
18:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the increased number of stations could lead to mostly the same effect
18:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but then it's easier to extend to more classes
18:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i fear the answer is: "make a GS")
18:35:27 <jrambo> not a bad idea to have more rural areas later, but, if it is going to be done that way, at least make it like: village 1-5, town 5-15+, etc.
18:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> jrambo: it's not the amount of stations you can place, it's the amont of stations considered for town growth speed
18:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> which is currently hardcoded at 5
18:36:56 <frosch123> [19:29] <Eddi|zuHause> random idea: "town-classes" (town/city/village/...) are influenced by different amount of maximum stations (e.g. village: 1, town: 5, city: 10) regarding growth acceleration <- i would suggest the exact opposite
18:37:12 <frosch123> a maximum number of stations is stupid and limits gameplay fun
18:37:41 <frosch123> instead there should be a minimum number of serviced stations for a town being able to maintain a certain population
18:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so more like "a station in a village has lower effect on an open-end scale"?
18:37:49 <jrambo> yes, i understand. still, maybe an industry is served with a lot of stations, and the town doesn't need to grow
18:38:18 <frosch123> currently town growth is an integral value
18:38:27 <jrambo> plus, the town should need a lot of bus (tram?) stations, to make it really huge
18:38:40 <frosch123> whatever the player does influences the speed of growth, which results in big towns with 1 station or whatever
18:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so we need an actual world economy simulator :p
18:39:25 <frosch123> player actions should increase the limit for the town size, not affect the speed of growth
18:40:14 <jrambo> thankfully, there are newgrfs :D
18:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but since town size is effectively a function of (blocked) space and number of houses closing vs. town growth speed, what would a maximum size really do?
18:41:14 <Andreas> limit the max no of houses in a town?
18:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: generally, with cargodist/yacd, you get more stations in a town than needed to speed up the growth to max
18:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which does not produce useful gameplay IMHO
18:42:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, my main target is to punish 64x64 stations and support a dense area of many stations
18:43:01 <Andreas> so Eddi|zuHause if I understand correctly your aim is to make towns grow faster if no of stations is higher?
18:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i want more elements of town growth that is independent from player interaction
18:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if max. number of stations is 1 for villages, then the "natural" town growth has much higher effect
18:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and the player-influenced effect is lower
18:45:29 <planetmaker> max number as in max number which has an influence, yes?
18:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> for city or metropolis with 10 or 20 stations, it's the opposite
18:45:37 <planetmaker> Or you really want to disallow building more stations?
18:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, but i said that already
18:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (where "metropolis" might not be created at game start, but instead is a "merging" of towns when it grows really large)
18:47:07 <planetmaker> I'm sure the hassle to merge towns is not worth the effect
18:47:17 <Andreas> so basically you want players to use towns that are growing allready in stead of players growing towns?
18:47:54 <Andreas> *by adding stations, delivering stuff and so on?
18:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no, more like "there's no point in focusing on this town, focus on that town instead"
18:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> take some ECS farms that say "we close when the town grows too close"
18:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's practically impossible to place this somewhere, because ALL towns grow too close
18:51:37 <Andreas> so in short it would kind of randomly allow towns to grow (or not)
18:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it would not stop growth, but slow it down (or accelerate) on a basis that the player could easily detect
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18:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there are more things that are "wrong" with town growth, e.g. the size of town zone 5 (skyscrapers) is too large too quickly
18:58:25 <Andreas> ok so let me rephrase what I asked earlier: you want some towns to have a faster groth potential (detectable in some way by a player) and some to have lower potential. This in order to have a bigger difference between different towns?
19:11:32 <andythenorth> 8,000hp, steep grade, broad gauge
19:11:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: 'ghat' ?
19:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there are no people on the roof!
19:12:40 <Pikka> andythenorth, that's an improper train
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19:15:53 <planetmaker> ghat is actually excellent :D
19:19:21 <planetmaker> seems to be a word with many meanings
19:20:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: so what are you doing with the funny lengths? o_O
19:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> make funny heights to make the misproportion more apparent
19:21:44 <Pikka> or maybe I'll just have to put up with it. :P
19:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that will be touched
19:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: broken link?
19:29:15 <Pikka> oh, it was in a pm, so...
19:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't link PMs to outsiders
19:34:48 <Superuser_> that's not zbase is it
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19:35:38 <Pikka> also, I can do separate sprites for each livery, right? That's not going to blow out the grf size too much, right? :D
19:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i have 1000 vehicles, no serious problems yet :p
19:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i made nforenum freak out recently with the sprite number 65536
19:37:40 <planetmaker> Pikka, depends on 'too much'. But... I'd not worry :D
19:38:24 <planetmaker> my newest project is 28M in size right now. And not even half done
19:38:37 <Andreas> I like those, they look less like brightly coloured childrens toys than some other 32bpp sprites
19:39:11 <andythenorth> I for one welcome our new 32bpp overlords
19:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> they still look like toys due to the length-misproportion
19:39:19 <andythenorth> now if someone could just fix FIRS for 32bpp
19:39:23 <Pikka> they're not misprortioned
19:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe your dictionary defines "proportion" differently :p
19:40:07 <andythenorth> I am +1 to chibi
19:40:08 <Pikka> well, they don't change proportions between directions
19:40:24 <Pikka> like "proper" ttd sprites do
19:40:28 <andythenorth> I am going to do some chibi trucks I think :P
19:40:34 <andythenorth> if I ever get to it
19:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they're not 20m x 4m x 3m
19:41:13 <andythenorth> Pikka: we (me and him) found the Iron Horse thingy is more fun with fake trains :)
19:41:27 <Andreas> don't you mean chubby?
19:41:32 <andythenorth> fake / silly prototypes / made up
19:42:36 <Pikka> mine are made up, but not that silly.
19:42:46 <Pikka> 'd have to do some sensible ones too
19:42:49 <Pikka> and that's too much work
19:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> we already have NUTS
19:44:13 <Pikka> Eddi: I'm only doing 14 locos in total. including emus and monolev. So there's not much room for silly. :) and we already have nuts.
19:44:29 <andythenorth> we couldn't stick to 16
19:44:55 <planetmaker> we love you for that, andythenorth
19:45:14 <planetmaker> with more discipline you wouldn't start these sets :D
19:45:50 <Pikka> this is the best version
19:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> we already have wetrails...
19:46:21 <andythenorth> surprisingly works well
19:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> some old TT(D) versions had a bug where you could run trains on water
19:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> trains and ships share the same trackbits (movement pattern)
20:18:08 <Tuhin> how to rotate Hub airports?
20:20:14 <Tuhin> 2. What's the difference between City and Metropoiton Airports
20:21:01 <Pinkbeast> You can't rotate airports; one has more runways IIRC?
20:21:29 <Pinkbeast> Land and take off more aircraft.
20:21:32 <Tuhin> why keep single runway airport?
20:21:41 <Tuhin> dual run way costs more?
20:21:53 <Pinkbeast> I think it's introduced later.
20:22:13 <Tuhin> i mistakeny built singlerun way one....
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20:23:07 <frosch123> you need opengfx+airports for rotating airports
20:23:37 <Tuhin> i have OpenTTD 1.3.3 atest
20:23:48 <frosch123> 1.2 would be good enough
20:23:58 <frosch123> you need that newgrf for it
20:24:13 <frosch123> check online content
20:24:34 <frosch123> anyway, will only work for new games
20:25:27 <Tuhin> i started this new game
20:25:36 <Tuhin> and the 1st thing i built is that airport
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20:27:29 <Tuhin> which other contents r "Must have
20:27:47 <Tuhin> so that i dont have to restart game over for new contents
20:28:02 <frosch123> what do you already have?
20:29:17 <frosch123> must have is only stuff without alternative. i guess that only applies to ogfx+airports and heqs
20:29:31 <Tuhin> i m playing OpenTTD after years of gap....
20:29:59 * andythenorth will have an alternative to heqs one day
20:30:00 <frosch123> for trains there are many choices, but if you are more of a gamer than a train fanatic you might want "nuts"
20:31:01 <frosch123> for road vehicles you need "heqs" and some second set for busses and small trucks (either "ogfx+rv" or "egrvts" most likely)
20:31:20 <frosch123> for ships you can choose between "fish 1" and "fish 2/squid"
20:31:29 <frosch123> for aircraft there is basicalyl only "av8"
20:32:17 <frosch123> for stations you pick "isr" and "chips" and then as many as you like or think that the menu becomes unuseable due to too many options
20:32:49 <frosch123> for industries - if you are a gamer - you pick either "ogfx+industries" or "firs" or default industries
20:33:07 <frosch123> for houses you pick either default houses, or maybe "swedish"
20:33:26 <planetmaker> well. pick ogfx+industries or firs. By default ogfx-industries is the same as default industries but improved graphics
20:33:38 <frosch123> for objects you pick as many as you get
20:33:54 <planetmaker> hm, except toyland
20:33:55 <frosch123> for railtypes you do not pick anything if using "nuts"
20:34:28 <frosch123> oh, and finally you pick one townname set which sounds most unknown to you
20:34:38 <andythenorth> and a GS...? o_O
20:35:37 <frosch123> i think you should play without GS for the first game, unless you use the "tutorial"
20:36:50 <frosch123> later you can choose between GS which favour cargo transport ("sillicon valley", "nocargoal"), town growth (many), or mixed stuff ("gsawards")
20:37:35 <frosch123> GS make the game a bit less sand-boxy by adding goals or score
20:38:16 <frosch123> while the default game as score or money, it is not considered particulary challenging or interesting
20:39:09 <frosch123> anyway, default is fine if you do not want to be forced to have a goal, but rather like sandbox
20:39:40 <Tuhin> i used to buy competitors in original TTD... that used to be my goal
20:39:53 <andythenorth> that's an anti-goal :)
20:39:56 <andythenorth> they make such a mess
20:40:06 * andythenorth had better do some pixa stuff
20:40:12 <andythenorth> what do I need to do again?
20:40:37 <Tuhin> add some barracks, troops, tanks and fighters/bombers
20:40:51 <Tuhin> then battle AI to OpenTTD
20:41:41 <frosch123> nah, that is a boring thing
20:41:52 <frosch123> every game that is seeking for some purpose tries to do war
20:42:01 <frosch123> because it is the only "money sink" they can imagine
20:42:11 <Tuhin> maybe add borders in map.... a player gets to develop and work in his own territory
20:42:26 <frosch123> thats called "head to head"
20:42:29 <Tuhin> whoever manages his territory most gets developped better
20:42:32 <frosch123> but is unmainted for 3 years or so
20:43:05 <Tuhin> better development= more industrial output= troop production...then war
20:43:27 <frosch123> i have no purpose for my money = war
20:43:57 <frosch123> games only have war because they do not offer unlimited expansion
20:43:57 <Tuhin> well i m talking about Revolution to expand game mechanics
20:44:04 <Tuhin> maybe add a trading layer?
20:44:20 <Tuhin> "Port Royale" "The Patrician" like gameplay
20:44:30 <frosch123> i hope not like recent simcity :p
20:44:52 <Tuhin> didnt play recent Simcity...it looked dumbed down to me
20:44:56 <frosch123> reduce the mapsize to 32x32, and add regions which connect servers
20:45:11 <frosch123> then make trains just drive in circles
20:45:42 <Tuhin> sometimes i want to disable trains... the ai kills the map with rails...
20:46:15 <frosch123> you can disable specific transport types for the ai in advanced settings
20:46:31 <frosch123> but some ais will just commit suicide if they cannot build what they want
20:46:43 * Tuhin playing OpenTTD after years of gap
20:47:08 <Tuhin> how they commit suicide?
20:48:10 <frosch123> there are ais like "chopper ai" which are designed to focus on a single transport type
20:48:21 <frosch123> if you disable that one they won't do anything
20:48:38 <frosch123> either they sit around until they bankrupt or they give you a fu window
20:48:51 <Andreas> still, somebody (or something) would die
20:49:04 <Andreas> and therefor he hs got his way (war)
20:49:42 <Tuhin> i plan to play with airport- airplanes- helis only
20:50:00 <Tuhin> and trucks for industry
20:50:15 <Tuhin> railroads just messes up
20:50:29 <frosch123> certainly a unique opinion :p
20:50:30 <Tuhin> why game have to be unpaused to build anything??????
20:50:45 <frosch123> there is an advanced setting to build in pause mode
20:51:13 <Tuhin> ......grrrr why this way by default?
20:51:20 <Tuhin> it wasn't this way before
20:51:27 <Pinkbeast> It used to be a cheat option.
20:51:31 <Tuhin> it makes building harder
20:51:35 <frosch123> true, in the past you could not play at all in pause :p
20:51:58 <Tuhin> i could have built roads, rails iirc
20:56:59 <Tuhin> there should be a community pack with all popular addons builtin
20:57:33 <Tuhin> i m playing after years and have no clue abt all these mods/addons
20:58:21 <planetmaker> the basic game is still the same. Just start slowly with NewGRFs and game scripts
20:58:29 <planetmaker> then you'll also find out which you like
20:58:34 <Pinkbeast> Who's to say what "the most popular" rail / industry / RV / etc. set is?
20:59:33 <Pinkbeast> Err well, "installed by default" is perhaps stretching the idea of "popular"
21:00:24 <Tuhin> rotating airports should ship by default....
21:00:36 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that exactly what makes things "popular"?
21:00:54 <Tuhin> this addon is just natural....
21:01:05 <frosch123> Tuhin: 70% of players will say that airtransport is crap
21:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: is windows popular because it's installed by default, or is windows installed by default because it's popular?
21:01:11 <frosch123> and noone needs airports
21:01:46 <Tuhin> what's the starting rule with train tracks then?
21:02:24 <Tuhin> i m playing plane only coz building rail tracks= many mistakes
21:02:49 <frosch123> no idea, i have played too long
21:02:51 <Taede> mistakes are opportunities for learning
21:02:58 <Tuhin> Linux is way better than Windows, but Windows is more popular coz most ppl can use windoz
21:02:59 <Pikka> how about extraextrazoomlevels? :D
21:03:01 <frosch123> i wouldn't be able to explain how to talk either
21:03:50 <Tuhin> do u guys lay single , double or quad rail tracks?
21:04:13 <frosch123> Pikka: don't look into the windows of the houses
21:04:31 <frosch123> Tuhin: you build exactly those rails which are needed for the amount of trains
21:04:33 <Pikka> frosch123, I want to see the spots on the engineer's nose.
21:04:37 <Tuhin> maybe railtracks criss crossign the map and connecting evthing to that
21:04:38 <frosch123> if you have only one train, you only need one track
21:04:38 <andythenorth> Pikka: how about voxels?
21:04:52 <frosch123> if you have 2 you need one track with a small sections of two tracks every now and then
21:05:04 <frosch123> if you have 1000 trains you need 10 tracks
21:05:17 <Pikka> frosch123, haven't you seen how the pros play TTD?
21:05:22 * andythenorth always uses one train per track
21:05:33 <Pikka> you need to join every city on the map with quad tracks before you even think about building a train
21:05:34 <Tuhin> yes in old games i played i had many many many trains... i used to play with trains only....
21:05:37 <frosch123> Pikka: douchebags build 64 tracks and run 2 trains on them
21:06:18 <Tuhin> ok, so why experts thinks Airplanes are bad
21:06:30 <frosch123> Tuhin: generally you should have about 50% of all tracks covered in trains all of the time
21:06:39 <Tuhin> i wanted to play different after years of gap and wanted to ignore railtracks building
21:06:54 <frosch123> Tuhin: you can play one game with aircrafts just fine
21:07:02 <frosch123> but it has no replay value
21:07:12 <frosch123> there are no choices, it's like children monopoly
21:07:25 <frosch123> roll dice, forced buy or pay
21:07:30 <Tuhin> i will play to compete with the AIs
21:08:22 <frosch123> better play on 256x256 with 4 ais
21:08:37 <frosch123> your computer won't handle 1024x1024 with 14 ais after half an hour
21:08:52 <frosch123> any you will never see them anyway, since they build on the opposite site of the map
21:08:53 <Tuhin> i have quad core PhenomII
21:09:14 <frosch123> yeah, but you would need 256 core thorion
21:09:36 <Tuhin> hmmm so TTD isn't multicore optimised yet?
21:10:10 <frosch123> does not matter on that scale
21:10:22 <Pinkbeast> Pretty sure I've played games that big and I don't have a tremendously studly machine.
21:10:28 <Tuhin> 256/256 seems too small :|
21:10:39 <frosch123> you can easily outgrow any computational power by making a game bigger
21:10:47 <frosch123> Tuhin: that's why it hard
21:10:53 <frosch123> you only compete in limited space
21:11:09 <Tuhin> how about 256/256 with 14 AI
21:11:48 <frosch123> Tuhin: generally, extreme values (low or high) are always bad
21:11:49 <Tuhin> I am from Civ3 and "Supreme Commander : Forged alliance"
21:11:53 <frosch123> in about all situations of life
21:12:06 <glx> 128x512 or 512x128 can be nice too
21:12:08 <Tuhin> ok new game will be 256
21:12:11 <Pinkbeast> With the default vehicle numbers per company, though, most of that map will go untouched.
21:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <Tuhin> Linux is way better than Windows, but Windows is more popular coz most ppl can use windoz <-- postulate: most people that use windows don't actually know how to use windows
21:13:16 <Tuhin> Eddi|zuHause, yes its true... its just more can do things they get chance to learn.. in windoz
21:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was not the actual question
21:13:44 <Tuhin> whats the default vehicle numbers
21:13:59 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the only true knowledge there is, is knowing what you don't know
21:14:12 <Pinkbeast> A few hundred per company. Conversely, with a lot of AIs on a small map, you can forget about using RVs. :-/
21:14:35 <frosch123> you can increase limits later in game
21:14:40 <frosch123> nothing to worry abuot at start
21:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that just produces an infinite number of knowledge levels
21:15:21 <andythenorth> when are RVs being removed?
21:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and hopefully a countable one :)
21:15:31 <Tuhin> hmm i have to disabe road vehicles then
21:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: when you delete the game
21:16:10 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i am sure it is equivalent to the axiom of choice
21:16:21 <andythenorth> everybody hates RVs
21:16:28 <andythenorth> they should be reimplemented as trains
21:16:58 <fjb> Roads should be reimplemented.
21:17:05 <frosch123> yeah, rv should be able to drive into ferries, which are then loaded onto trains
21:17:23 <Tuhin> and then into cargo planes
21:17:29 <andythenorth> trains should be able to fly
21:18:06 <frosch123> flying boats and swimming planes are far more common
21:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, it's more than that, because if you include the axiom of choice in your model, then you went up one stage of "knowledgeness", but there is still things that you cannot prove or disprove (and thus cannot know)
21:18:35 <Tuhin> yeah i saw more aliens on road today than humans
21:18:42 <fjb> And teleportation already happens (but only people and ggods).
21:19:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, maybe i need the skill to teach someone to know what they don't know
21:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and thus you create a hierarchy
21:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no step in this hierarchy can ever be complete (->Gödel)
21:19:53 <Tuhin> i can't find "Fish2 " or Squid in downloadable contents
21:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> => the hierarchy is infinite
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21:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't know whether that hierarchy has countable number or uncountable number
21:23:41 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but infinite doesn't mean you can't know the answer; the sum of 1+2+3+4+... until infinity has a finite answer
21:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and it gets worse if you split up "this cannot be proven (and we can prove that)" and "this has not been proven yet (but it's not sure if it can"
21:24:47 <frosch123> Rubidium: there are infinite many types of infinity .p
21:25:02 <frosch123> each of them infinity more than the previous one
21:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and without the axiom of choice you can't even prove whether that's all the infinities
21:25:34 <frosch123> and still people think they know when one is more than the other :p
21:26:56 <Rubidium> luckily there's an infinite number of finite numbers ;)
21:27:03 <frosch123> the axiom of choice is that kind of stuff which you plant on first year students, and noone will notice what you planted on them
21:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure we discussed the axiom of choice in school
21:27:55 <frosch123> if they then happen to pick set theory in a later year, they may discover how much they were fooled
21:28:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but noone understood what it really means
21:28:20 <frosch123> everyone said "yeah, sounds intuitive"
21:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> we also had this infinity stuff like hilbert's hotel in like 8th grade
21:29:11 <frosch123> while there is pure evil 1 pico meter below the surface
21:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also an "axiom of choice" song to the tune of "there's a hole in the bucket"
21:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, basically the axiom of choice is the "god" of mathematics
21:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> some people believe in it, some people don't
21:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there are serious wars between both kinds of people
21:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and it can't be proven to exist
21:33:40 <frosch123> yup, that's probably the best analogy :)
21:34:35 <frosch123> even in itself it claims that something exists under all circumstances, even though there is not a single example for a non-trivial case
21:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that our reality is finite, so it's really difficult to make analogies once you surpass a level of abstractness where the axiom of choice even begins to matter
21:37:15 <frosch123> yeah, that's the lucky thing
21:37:30 <frosch123> it does not affect anything reallifeish :p
21:37:31 <planetmaker> hm... my OpenTTD currently eats 2.7GByte of memory :D
21:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> every case not abstract enough to make an analogy doesn't need the axiom of choice to prove/disprove it
21:37:55 <frosch123> planetmaker: 2GB spritecache is the default for 32bpp, isn't it?
21:38:16 <planetmaker> dunno, might be :)
21:38:20 <frosch123> or was it the maximum?
21:38:50 <andythenorth> Tuhin: Squid is only visible for download if you use a recent nightly build of openttd
21:38:56 <planetmaker> it suddenly started to update the screen only on rare occasions when I move the window
21:39:11 <planetmaker> has been running for (real life) days...
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21:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you use more RAM if you use a 32bpp NewGRF or baseset
21:44:13 <frosch123> or scripts, or buggy ottd :p
21:44:19 <Tuhin> i downloaded all OpenGFX
21:45:54 <Tuhin> which year should i start? 1900 or 1800?
21:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> don't start in 1800
21:46:50 <Tuhin> when airplanes appears? 1905?
21:46:52 <Pinkbeast> Certainly not if you plan an aircraft game. :-/
21:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your NewGRF set
21:47:11 <Tuhin> i decided to play rails too
21:47:29 <Tuhin> i downoaded what i was suggested above
21:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be zeppelins early on if you use AV8
21:47:39 <Pinkbeast> Well, rails in any set don't start until about 1830 for obvious reasons, and I think it's much later in OpenGFX rails
21:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> just start a game, look into the vehicle selection, and decide if that's enough to get started
21:48:16 <skyem123> Only one steam engine is in 1945.
21:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs don't only have to be downloaded, they also have to be set up
21:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> go to NewGRF settings, and look if you actually activated stuff
21:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the default start year is 1950, there it's pretty certain that you have vehicles. most NewGRFs start around 1920, only few start earlier
21:51:04 <Tuhin> i dont see any newGRF stuff ... in NewGRF settings
21:51:16 <Tuhin> I m using Portable OpenTTD
21:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> then go back to the main menu, and add some there
21:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it should give you a list of stuff you activated, and a list of stuff you downloaded, move stuff from the downloaded list to the activated list
21:52:35 <Tuhin> OpenGFX Trains and NUTS works together?
21:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you should only use one GRF of each kind (trains, planes, industries, ...)
21:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> only stations and objects you can reasonably combine
21:53:36 <Pinkbeast> Cough murmur I usually combine ukrs2 and 2cc trains :-)
21:55:10 <frosch123> you can combine vehicle sets if they focus on different things, like pax vs. cargo
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21:56:26 <Tuhin> enabled AV8, HEQS, Open Airports as objects, OpenGFX: Industry, Landscape Road Vehicles, Trains,Airports, Trees, BigUI , WorlCities Town Names, Base Costs Mod, FISH, Industrial Stations REnewal
21:57:34 <Pikka> we really need extra zoom levels in the map
21:57:53 <Pikka> especially with cargodist, trying to look at the links, can't see bugger all. It's too tiny.
21:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably leave out base costs mod
21:57:55 <Tuhin> so any conflicts in my selection^
21:58:16 <frosch123> basecost mod is pointless unless you set parameters
21:58:18 <Tuhin> i want to see cost of airports, depots etc
21:58:29 <frosch123> that's not what it does :p
21:58:45 <frosch123> it allows changing price factors
21:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it allows to double or halve prices
21:58:50 <frosch123> making stuff cheaper or more expensive
21:59:11 <Tuhin> did i miss to add anything?
21:59:17 <frosch123> you may want to check the parameters of ogfx+industries
21:59:23 <frosch123> just to know what options are available
21:59:30 <frosch123> not neccessarily changing them though
21:59:48 <planetmaker> Tuhin, whether you need BigGUI is questionable. Trees... dunno ,maybe :)
22:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause> is there no OpenGFX+Houses?
22:00:15 <frosch123> and you need to enable the town names actually a second time via game options :p
22:00:19 <planetmaker> indeed, there's not. Nor +Planes nor +Ships
22:00:32 <frosch123> (the biggest interface gotcha we have :p)
22:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you have to go to game options and select the new town names
22:00:59 <Tuhin> BigGUI = i have 15 inch laptop screen here
22:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you should leave out biggui, or edit openttd.cfg to put it into [newgrf-static]
22:01:59 <Tuhin> @planetmaker , i need OpenGFX+Houses, Planes+Ships ??
22:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Tuhin: these are not created yet, there is nothing to get
22:02:20 <Tuhin> i thought they will use more RAM
22:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> don't worry about RAM
22:03:40 <Tuhin> I got PCB Server... forgot to type
22:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that is
22:04:17 <frosch123> sounds like one of the many weird city game scripts
22:05:43 <frosch123> yeah, that is some site which runs competitive multiplayer servers with some league/ranging system
22:06:09 <Tuhin> where do i play with noobs like me?
22:06:44 <frosch123> 90% of servers are empty
22:06:44 <Andreas> btpro or n-ice are the biggest
22:06:51 <frosch123> 8% of servers have trolls
22:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> one of each, and then throw out the ones that fail often
22:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause> try not to use two AIs of the same type
22:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> they get in each others way too often
22:08:04 <Andreas> frosch123, what is the last time you played a multiplayer game on novapolis/n-ice/bt-pro?
22:08:54 <frosch123> i am no competitive player
22:08:59 <Tuhin> i got - AdmiralAI, Chopper, CluelessPlus, DictatorAI, EpicTrans,NoCAB, PAXLink,Rythorn AirlineAI, SimpleAI,SynTrans,TerronAI,TeshiNet, TransAI
22:09:16 <frosch123> and i am not interested in pax transport, nor city building
22:09:28 <frosch123> so, all 3 of them are pretty damn uninteresting to me
22:09:40 <Andreas> well then maybe you should not discourage people from trying mp servers by saying that only 2% are good...
22:09:50 <Andreas> a lot of people do like them
22:10:05 <frosch123> i didn't say that, those 3 belong to the 2%
22:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Tuhin: there's a (probably outdated) "comparison of AIs" page on the wiki
22:10:36 <Tuhin> Eddi|zuHause, yes i downoaded ais seeing that comparison
22:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Tuhin: but i don't think it really matters
22:11:02 <frosch123> but ok, maybe 2% was too low, could be 10% :p
22:11:17 <Tuhin> which GameScripts r good
22:11:26 <frosch123> only 50% of servers are empty currently
22:11:35 <Tuhin> i want the cities grow without shipping them goods....
22:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Tuhin: don't use gamescripts then
22:12:22 <Tuhin> CityDomination sounds fun?
22:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> all game scripts with "City" in their name probably require to ship goods to them :p
22:14:04 <Tuhin> hmm i can change play style
22:17:28 <frosch123> no idea, i don't recognise them
22:17:52 <Tuhin> some1 here gave that link
22:18:05 <frosch123> then it might be unreleased
22:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> those are not done yet
22:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> they're made by Pikka like two days ago :p
22:19:01 <Pikka> more like two hours ago, Eddi. :P
22:20:43 <Tuhin> hmm have to play in dektop ...laptop have only 2GB and multitasking
22:21:01 <Tuhin> desktop have 4GB...enough to play 32bp
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22:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you can reduce the sprite cache size in openttd.cfg, but if it doesn't suffice, performance will be really bad
22:29:16 <frosch123> the spritecache reduces itself to only use 50% of memory atm ost
22:30:28 <Tuhin> any feature added to HQ?
22:32:44 <Tuhin> in Capitalism2 , u can do things at HQ
22:32:55 <Tuhin> like brand advertisement, settign own salary
22:33:15 <Tuhin> training workers to make better drivers?
22:33:38 <Tuhin> maybe these can be added to the HQ
22:33:52 <Tuhin> play "Capitalism2" and u will get the idea
22:34:08 <Tuhin> i think there should be option to issue shares
22:34:30 <Andreas> you can buy/sell shares allready
22:36:42 <Tuhin> i saw the button greyed out
22:39:24 <Andreas> then it is disabled in advanced settings
22:39:44 <Taede> or the company is not mature enough
22:39:53 <fjb> The HQ accepts and generates passengers.
22:40:01 <Taede> is it not disabled untill the company has had a chance to establish itself?
22:40:03 <Andreas> go to "competitors' and then enable "allow buying shares
22:40:51 <Andreas> "yeah, it says: 'when they reach a certain age"
22:40:55 <Tuhin> oops plane price is 10 times more than normal now!
22:41:15 <Andreas> hehe no, I mean company age
22:41:39 <Andreas> yeah av8 is a bit more expensive than 'normal' aircraft
22:41:49 <Tuhin> competitor company is 1 day old and i want to buy his share:)
22:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> companies must be at least 6 years old
22:42:57 <Tuhin> i built 4 airports and now found the plane costs 10 times more...
22:43:15 <Tuhin> do i get 10 times the revenue/profit from planes?
22:43:38 <Tuhin> then why price is increased
22:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> to make planes less of a money printing machine
22:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> also there are smaller/cheaper planes and bigger/more expensive planes
22:45:23 <planetmaker> even no planes is not unbalanced :)
22:45:38 <Tuhin> Douglas DC3 costs 40k and carries only 40 passengers
22:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and how much does a train with one engine and one wagon cost?
22:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and how much do you have to pay for rails?
22:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and what is "balanced" now?
22:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> also: AV8 assumes you play with increased plane speed, so the planes are 4 times faster than in the original game
22:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (in the original game, a plane at 800km/h moved as fast as a train at 200km/h)
22:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> thus you actually do earn more
22:49:01 <Tuhin> now it says my DC3 cant reach destination
22:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, planes also have a maximum distance in AV8
22:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> bigger planes have longer distance
22:49:54 <Tuhin> these realisms r good for "Airine Tycoon 2" that i have played....not in this
22:50:30 <Tuhin> which mod increases rail price and realism
22:50:34 <frosch123> i guess it is meant to add more variety
22:50:49 <Tuhin> i will disable that rail realism
22:51:04 <frosch123> if capacity is the only criterion for an aircraft, you have only one choice to build
22:51:29 <Tuhin> how do i count 320 tile range for planes
22:52:14 <Tuhin> i think the AV8 makers hates planes and made using planes absurd
22:52:40 <Tuhin> i already bought 3 DC3s and find they can reach the airports
22:53:08 <frosch123> you wanted it harder
22:54:17 <Tuhin> not harder, i wanted to see real airplane and train graphics
22:55:15 <frosch123> if you want real ones, you could try "world airliners set"
22:55:44 <frosch123> it has like 50 planes which are all the same, just with different reallife company liveries
22:56:43 <frosch123> (propably exagerating)
22:57:22 <Pikka> I'm probably going to leave plane ranges out of Av9... D:
22:57:46 <Pikka> they can be a bit annoying :P
22:58:03 <frosch123> and stock pile limits and mine excavation out of pbi 2.0 ?
22:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <mode=andy>planes are boring, we should remove planes from the game</mode>
22:59:15 <frosch123> we should have more experimental ottd versions
22:59:25 <frosch123> we are piling features which someone thougth would be fun
22:59:30 <frosch123> but turn out boring after a while
22:59:41 <frosch123> long life the patchpacks!
22:59:46 <Pikka> frosch123: I don't know, I'm putting off thinking about industries for as long as possible :D
23:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a dozen patchpacks that we have now are not enough?
23:00:33 <Tuhin> Pikka, add the drone deivery planes that amazon.com is introducing in 2015
23:00:49 <frosch123> could be an addition to the taxi grf :p
23:00:59 <frosch123> helicoper, capacity 1 :p
23:01:10 <frosch123> hmm, the taxi could fit 4, right?
23:01:15 <frosch123> the pizza thingie had 1
23:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "In Deutschland leiden immer mehr Menschen an Eisenmangel. Besonders betroffen sind die Regionen Hüttenstadt und Ach."
23:14:52 <Tuhin> DC3 is totally unprofitable even when loaded fully
23:15:12 <Tuhin> 5 airports and 4 DC3..... lossss
23:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Tuhin: check the planespeed setting
23:17:02 <Tuhin> show parameters ahve 4 on/off options
23:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> in the advanced settings
23:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not in the newgrf settings
23:19:47 *** valhalla1w has joined #openttd
23:20:59 <Tuhin> yes made 1/1 and now making profit
23:22:13 <Tuhin> anyway, have to abandon this game
23:22:32 <Tuhin> the range limit is too much to bear
23:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well the DC3 is not really known for nonstop cross-atlantic flights
23:24:23 <Tuhin> the map size is 512/512 and i wasn't even trying to pass 30% of 512
23:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> note that all changes to settings you've done ingame you have to repeat on the main menu, or they won't affect new grames
23:25:03 <Tuhin> i wil remove AV8 and play
23:26:00 <Tuhin> i sent a plane to an airport, changed the route and it says cant reach destination/out of range
23:26:58 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
23:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> have to use intermediate stops for refilling
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continue to next day ⏵
