IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-01-11
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05:49:17 <Flygon> Is it possible to modify a .sav file to uncap the 5000 vehicle limit?
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07:47:29 <andythenorth> this project has a bad structure
07:47:54 * andythenorth hates sorting out filesystem structure
07:49:38 <andythenorth> is planetmaker awake yet? o_O
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09:25:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have a file naming puzzle o_O
09:27:23 <Aristide> andythenorth: Only « puzzle » ?
09:28:08 <Aristide> I have a directory named « prout »
09:28:40 <andythenorth> spritesheets are in '/graphics'
09:28:50 <andythenorth> .psd files and such are in '/graphics_sources'
09:29:03 <andythenorth> but I'm adding pixa, with generated spritesheets
09:29:20 <andythenorth> convention is then to make '/graphics' the destination for generated files
09:29:35 <andythenorth> and introduce '/graphics_src' for the initial spritesheets
09:29:44 <andythenorth> this makes '/graphics_sources' ambiguous
09:29:49 <planetmaker> my solution to that is to have the xcf (gimp) files in gfx-source, and the generated output in src/gfx/blah.gimp.png
09:30:06 <planetmaker> pixa is scripted generation, so generated each time, yes?
09:30:06 <andythenorth> I have an aversion to generating things into srrc
09:30:14 <andythenorth> yes generated each time
09:30:25 <planetmaker> true, generating in src might not be ideal
09:30:33 <andythenorth> and make clean would remove the entire graphics dir
09:30:39 <planetmaker> you could add a new dir called 'build/gfx'
09:30:54 <andythenorth> or something like 'assets' and dump the .psds in there :P
09:31:28 <planetmaker> keeping them in graphics_sources is fine. Putting any generated stuff in graphics_sources is wrong. As wrong as in src ;)
09:32:29 <planetmaker> could also called generated_gfx
09:32:43 <andythenorth> nah, goes against the convention for generated lang, generated docs etc
09:33:09 <planetmaker> err... no, not generated stuff
09:33:25 <planetmaker> lang_src is your unmodified stuff. generated stuff is in lang
09:33:40 <planetmaker> so just use gfx then, if you want
09:34:08 <planetmaker> (I know I'm not consistent in this naming either, so I might not be a good guide there :D )
09:34:19 <andythenorth> it just helps to check I'm not smoking crack tbh :)
09:34:45 <andythenorth> I'm just going to add 'assets' or something for graphics and sound source files
09:34:56 <andythenorth> they are not commonly used, they just need to live with the project
09:36:08 <planetmaker> I dislike 'assets' :D
09:36:36 <planetmaker> just call it generated then, maybe?
09:36:52 <planetmaker> otoh, andythenorth, the generated nml is also in src, no?
09:37:11 <andythenorth> that just goes in root
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09:37:44 <planetmaker> there's only the one nml file generated by gcc (or is there no gcc anymore)?
09:38:13 <andythenorth> there's none in this IH project
09:38:16 <andythenorth> there is in FIRS
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09:39:35 <andythenorth> logically, the photoshop files etc should go in src/ :P
09:39:48 <andythenorth> but we don't do that - maybe because they are big and messy
09:40:27 <planetmaker> well, they could go in src/gfx or so, yes
09:40:43 <planetmaker> but indeed, I somewhen put mine separate for the reason you cited
09:40:55 <planetmaker> maybe time to move them. But the diff is ... big ;)
09:41:30 * planetmaker added yesterday a diff of 40MByte where hg warned me about 'it may need >100MByte of ram to manage it" oh well :D
09:42:32 <planetmaker> should work out. facebook uses mercurial and they use HUGE repos
09:44:43 <andythenorth> I assume it would be confusing to have both 'graphics_src' (spritesheets) and 'graphics_sources' (psds etc) ?
09:45:14 <planetmaker> generated stuff also doesn't belong in an src dir
09:45:21 <planetmaker> so the output just goes in graphics
09:45:49 <andythenorth> I could just leave the src spritesheets in the same dir as the psds
09:46:04 <andythenorth> the issue here is three stage graphics pipeline
09:46:08 <andythenorth> everything else is two-stage
09:46:36 <andythenorth> source psd -> export png spritesheet -> render with pixa to final spritesheets
09:46:50 <andythenorth> the first step is manual always
09:46:56 <andythenorth> the second is programatic always
09:47:06 <planetmaker> why is that manual?
09:47:30 <andythenorth> no benefit to automating it
09:47:38 <andythenorth> there are so many variables with layers etc
09:47:53 * planetmaker found that the really beneficial thing :D
09:48:01 <andythenorth> it's also quite a rare step
09:48:02 <planetmaker> just draw and let scripts handle the rest
09:48:13 <planetmaker> but I do landscape, not vehicles or buildings
09:48:32 <andythenorth> leaving one layer on or off could bork the sprites, and it wouldn't be detectable with code
09:48:49 <planetmaker> of course. But I set the layers I want for export
09:49:06 <andythenorth> you must have well behaved artists contributing
09:49:08 <planetmaker> naming scheme for layers. Export script gives layers for individual files -> png
09:49:16 <planetmaker> I'm the only artist for that :D
09:49:56 <andythenorth> the only logical name is 'graphics_intermediates' for the middle stage :P
09:50:11 <planetmaker> yes, logical. Not a bad name either :)
09:50:47 <andythenorth> I'll do that then
10:01:50 * andythenorth wonders if a 'build' folder might be wise for all the generated stuff
10:01:53 <andythenorth> otoh, flat is better
10:05:24 <andythenorth> let's see if I broke the build :P
10:06:30 <planetmaker> I was pondering to move everything generated to the build folder
10:07:04 <planetmaker> makes it harder to tain sources and easier to clean up
10:10:26 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am +0.5
10:10:43 <planetmaker> yeah. That's about my stance, too
10:10:45 <andythenorth> for lang and graphics and nml it makes sense
10:10:49 <andythenorth> only docs bothers me
10:10:59 <andythenorth> I actually use /docs a lot and I am used to where it is
10:10:59 <planetmaker> why does docs bother you?
10:11:13 <andythenorth> I use it to verify stats etc sometimes
10:11:45 <andythenorth> I could just alias index.html
10:11:51 <planetmaker> docs should have what source ships with. Not what binary ships with
10:11:52 <andythenorth> then I'd stop editing the wrong changelog
10:12:09 <planetmaker> oh, the build directory would be completely generated in my idea
10:12:15 <planetmaker> nothing for you to edit in there
10:15:14 <andythenorth> currently I forget, and edit changelog in /docs
10:15:19 <andythenorth> instead of docs_src
10:15:26 <andythenorth> then my changes are blown away
10:23:58 <andythenorth> strictly, docs are output, not build
10:24:37 <andythenorth> anyway, I didn't break it yet :)
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10:51:22 <andythenorth> how does pixa work
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11:20:57 <andythenorth> for once, it all makes sense :)
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11:53:10 <andythenorth> ugh, I don't like the bit where I have to get the interface wrong
11:53:19 <andythenorth> so I can figure out what it should have been :P
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11:58:38 <Alberth> fix the docs, so you don't have to figure it out again in the future?
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12:04:41 <fjb_mobile> Our write an errata for the documentation.
12:06:45 <andythenorth> I have to design the interface before I could document it :)
12:06:48 <andythenorth> that will be wrong :P
12:07:09 <andythenorth> after much copy-paste, I'll figure out what it should have been
12:22:33 <planetmaker> what interface do you design, andythenorth ?
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12:36:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: interface to call pixa graphics processing (if needed) on a vehicle
12:37:09 <andythenorth> I mean interface in scripting sense, not UI :)
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13:41:19 <planetmaker> hm, quite convenient. It suffices to draw and code the 4x sprites. OpenTTD does the rest :D
13:41:40 <planetmaker> (if you still have some 1x 8bpp)
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13:55:35 <Alberth> at the cost of a bit of quality, probably :)
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13:59:45 <planetmaker> not that bad really
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14:13:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26235 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-01-11 14:13:23 UTC)
14:13:30 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Decimal and digit separators were swapped for Korean language
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16:07:14 <Sonny_Jim> Hi, I'm trying to join one of the openttd servers and it says I've been banned?
16:08:42 <Sonny_Jim> In fact it seems I can't join any of the btpro servers??
16:09:15 <Sonny_Jim> Other servers seem to work, do I have the wrong client version or something?
16:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to contact the server owner
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16:11:35 <Rubidium> either you have been banned, or one of the people that use the same provider as you has been banned
16:12:15 <Superuser> I wonder what you need to do to get banned from ottd
16:12:21 <Rubidium> in any case, the developers of OpenTTD can't do anything about bans that are done by third parties (i.e. game server hosters)
16:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: either you spam or you destroy the game (e.g. flatten all land to sea level or so)
16:14:17 <Rubidium> ... or someone in your IP range does that and the game server hoster bans the whole range and/or your ISP rotates IP addresses so you get the IP address that someone else who got banned had
16:15:49 <Sonny_Ji1> Is there a way I can see why that IP range was banned or anything?
16:16:11 <Sonny_Ji1> Who runs the BT Pro servers?
16:16:26 <Sonny_Ji1> I got a link from the BTPro website to here, so I assumed here was the palce
16:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> read their website?
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16:17:23 <Sonny_Ji1> Ah, it's on a different network
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17:21:14 <triad> could you guys recommend me a good printer ?
17:24:26 <Superuser> anyone in here speak arabic?
17:24:31 <Superuser> triad: depends on your requirements
17:25:03 <Superuser> i.e. what quantity of paper you are looking to print, what additional features are you looking for (e.g. scanning), whether it will be laser or inkjet...
17:28:06 <Superuser> as in, small business office? Are we talking say 50 pages a week?
17:28:26 <planetmaker> err... this is not exactly a printer recommendation channel, no?
17:28:46 <andythenorth> there are no good printers
17:28:50 <andythenorth> all printers are rubbish
17:29:22 <triad> max 300-400 pages/month
17:29:23 <andythenorth> I have been the unsatisfied owner of Epson, Canon, Lexmark, Xerox and Brother
17:29:38 <andythenorth> inkjet, photo inkjet, colour laser, black and white laser
17:29:52 <triad> so what's the most cheapest thing to do
17:29:56 <andythenorth> currently I own 2 HP office all-in-one thingies
17:30:04 <Superuser> well triad then an inkjet will do you fine provided that you don't care about insane levels of quality
17:30:06 <andythenorth> the ink is frighteningly expensive, but the printer is good
17:30:18 <Superuser> yeah we had an all-in-one too for a while
17:30:25 <Superuser> now we have a canon
17:30:37 <andythenorth> I got bored of Canon's drying the print heads out
17:30:45 <andythenorth> had about 4 of them
17:30:49 <Superuser> the nice thing about canon is that there are lots of unofficial cartridges
17:30:55 <Superuser> (it depends on the printer ofc)
17:31:32 <andythenorth> printers are consumable
17:31:35 <andythenorth> the asset is the ink
17:32:12 <triad> what do you think about lasers ?
17:32:21 <Sanfred> Wait, there are people that still use ink printers? Seems like madness to me.
17:32:30 <andythenorth> lasers need toner
17:32:35 <andythenorth> toner is frighteningly expensive
17:32:44 <andythenorth> and lasers aren't as fast as you might hope
17:32:54 <Sanfred> Toner is much, much cheaper per page when compared to ink.
17:33:02 <andythenorth> I remember seeing a B+W laser printing 50ppm in about 1994
17:33:10 <andythenorth> but it would have cost £4k
17:33:13 <triad> Sanfred: you recommend laser ? what kind ?
17:33:29 <andythenorth> every laser I have owned can manage about 10ppm, badly
17:33:34 <triad> there are any shitty things like drying if you don't print 1 month ?
17:33:42 <andythenorth> but then we spend £250 on them, so meh
17:33:56 <Superuser> laser is very expensive
17:34:02 <Superuser> not just the printer, the 'ink' too
17:34:35 <andythenorth> I wish the forum was less strongly opinonated about eating my cookies
17:34:41 <andythenorth> I have to log in every few hours
17:35:05 <Sanfred> I bought a Samsung SCX-4200 printer about 7 years ago for about $180. Since then I've printed about 5000 pages and spent about $100 on toner. Still works great.
17:35:56 <triad> Sanfred: at the laser printer there are shitty things like at ink: if you don't print something it will dry and eventually you need to replace something
17:36:27 <Sanfred> triad: no. Give it toner and paper and it will work.
17:36:51 <triad> so it can stay with no printing how much i want ?
17:37:04 <Sanfred> If you print extremely much, you will have to replace the drum unit eventually. Still no big deal.
17:37:23 <triad> so it can stay with no printing how much i want ?
17:38:05 <Sanfred> yes. I've seen a printer that was used for three days, then stored for half a year, then used for three days again. Has worked for years with no service.
17:38:17 <triad> extremely meaning how much ? (by the way, thx for answering my questions. all of you :] )
17:38:22 <Sanfred> (that one is a Brother laser)
17:39:12 <Sanfred> check the specifications for the printer you're interested in, for number of pages the drum unit is supposed to manage before being replaced
17:40:52 <Sanfred> And don't forget to check that you get a full toner with the printer, not some 300-pages "get started toner"
17:44:20 <planetmaker> nice. Finally animated water in 32bpp
17:46:56 <Sanfred> is 32bpp rendering actuall faster than 8bpp on a modern cpu?
17:48:20 <Sanfred> My openttd window is 3840x1200 pixels and it is extremely slow when moving around (1.4-beta2 with cargodist enabled for all cargo types)
17:49:32 <planetmaker> Sanfred, read up on the 32bpp sse blitter thread in the forums :)
17:49:36 <planetmaker> it has all the numbers
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18:57:43 <Rubidium> Sanfred: it heavily depends on the circumstances whether 32bpp is faster and on your GPU/OS/libraries
18:58:04 <Rubidium> in any case, the most significant improvement you can get is by using the 64 bit binary instead of 32 bit binary
19:00:13 <Rubidium> in the 'no drawing' case OpenTTD's 64 bits Windows binary is about 5% faster than the 32 bits binary. In the animated blitter case that increases up to 15% and that is simply using a different binary
19:01:07 <Rubidium> the blitter numbers in the thread are usually only counting the time spent in the blitting methods, so those improvements aren't necessarily as big as they seem
19:01:49 <Rubidium> nevertheless, you can have improvements of 5-15% as well there
19:03:08 <Rubidium> so if you would go from a 32 bits binary with 32bpp-anim to a 64 bits binary with 32bpp-sse4-anim you could see improvements of like 30%
19:06:12 <Rubidium> that's definitely patchy
19:06:36 <planetmaker> yes, shores are missing
19:06:39 <LordAro> looks fancy, what's it for?
19:06:58 <planetmaker> for my pleasure, LordAro ;)
19:07:15 <LordAro> planetmaker = zephyris :p
19:07:34 <planetmaker> his work flow definitely is different
19:08:18 <planetmaker> Rubidium, it's unpatched OpenTTD, should you have meant that
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19:44:03 <andythenorth> I have a string, which I want to convert to an object reference
19:44:18 <andythenorth> because at the point it's first defined, I don't have the object in scope
19:44:29 <andythenorth> I was trying to avoid a mapping :)
19:44:37 <andythenorth> and I've been conditioned to never ever ever use eval
19:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> never ever use eval
19:44:49 <andythenorth> probably the answer is change the design I think
19:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but if a dict is not the right answer, i need more context
19:45:16 <andythenorth> I am just being lazy about getting the object in scope
19:45:26 <andythenorth> it means adding an import to about 60 files or so
19:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that was not the question
19:46:13 <andythenorth> I know, I am thinking of best explanation
19:46:43 <andythenorth> a dict is the correct answer tbh
19:46:52 <andythenorth> I just didn't want to maintain a mapping
19:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a factory method could also help
19:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but these code patterns are usually of the kind "we have these two already developed code pieces, make them fit together", and can often be solved better if developed from scratch to be fit
19:52:29 <andythenorth> the specific case is that I want to have a vehicle specify which of several graphics processors to use
19:52:39 <andythenorth> the processors are just modules
19:53:14 <andythenorth> or classes in a single module, not written yet, could be either
19:54:20 <andythenorth> when I call the init for the vehicle, I need to pass the module name as a parameter
19:55:13 <andythenorth> there are ~40 modules for vehicles so far :P
19:55:27 <andythenorth> so I can either add an import to every vehicle module, or I can pass a string, and use a lookup table later
19:56:00 <andythenorth> the table looks like a much better bet, except it has to be manually maintained every time I add a new processor
19:56:09 <andythenorth> or maybe I can do that programatically?
19:56:35 <andythenorth> have each module register itself
19:56:56 <andythenorth> you made me answer it for myself :)
20:01:20 <Alberth> annoying eh, teddy bears talking back :p
20:06:52 <andythenorth> pixa stuff always makes my head hurt
20:07:14 <andythenorth> not even going to try and describe my current puzzle :)
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20:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> often describing your problem with actual words will make the solution obvious
20:25:55 <andythenorth> do I create a potentially large number of named singletons to use as graphics processors (names might be long and fiddly)
20:26:24 <andythenorth> or do I have fewer, and pass parameters, but I might be repeating myself often, and have a maintenance headache if changes are needed
20:26:59 <andythenorth> e.g. all hopper wagons use same processor
20:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> prepare a factory method that translates names into parameters
20:27:52 <andythenorth> that's the same pattern as last time I tried this I think
20:28:05 <andythenorth> BANDIT (never-finished truck set)
20:28:12 <andythenorth> splits filenames into params
20:28:24 <andythenorth> which also reduced work in thinking up unique names :P
20:53:11 <Alberth> missing words are easy to add imho
20:53:36 <Alberth> as for the units, it would clean up quite a few strings imho
20:54:46 <frosch123> hmm, we have no newgrf stringcode for cargo amounts
20:58:47 <andythenorth> that's one reason I was 'meh' about that comment :)
20:59:03 <frosch123> yeah, i think the lack of such a string command is the actualy problem :p
20:59:27 <andythenorth> there has been so much faff with those industry strings in FIRS
20:59:33 <andythenorth> so many mistakes, unit corrections etc
21:06:01 <frosch123> hmm, how to pack cargotype and cargoamount onto the text stack?
21:06:08 <frosch123> most amounts use words
21:06:22 <frosch123> cargotype could live with a byte
21:06:40 <frosch123> so, should it use 2+1 bytes, or 2+2?
21:07:11 <planetmaker> for stations you likely would rather want 2 bytes for the amount?
21:07:32 <frosch123> 2 for amount is settlerd
21:07:46 <frosch123> but for the cargotype i can either use 1 to make it compact, or 2 to make it easier to sue
21:07:57 <frosch123> yeah, i think 2+2 is way better
21:08:10 <planetmaker> why does cargotype need two?
21:08:12 <Alberth> perhaps also specify how to output?
21:08:24 <Alberth> ie override the user setting?
21:08:41 <frosch123> planetmaker: 1 would be enough, but putting 3 bytes on the textstack makes it a lot harder for newgrf and nml
21:09:02 <frosch123> Alberth: why would anyone want to do that?
21:09:16 <Rubidium> I'd say word because of string codes 85 and 86
21:11:41 <frosch123> is there any reason why some newgrf stringcodes interpret stuff as signed or unsigned?
21:29:14 <frosch123> we cannot nest strings from different grfs :p
21:30:25 <frosch123> hmm, but since dparams are 64bit, maybe i can remove _last_grfid and put the grfid into the param along the string id
21:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for removing magic global variables :)
21:48:06 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
22:06:48 <frosch123> hmm, this might even fix the dubious newgrf-can-crash-ottd-with-weird-stringid-unkown bug
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22:17:10 <Rubidium> you want to make string IDs <newgrfid> << 32 | localid ?
22:17:33 <frosch123> no, does not look like that is needed
22:49:52 <frosch123> do cyclops live on thas island?
22:50:08 <frosch123> it is owned by Nobody
22:52:14 <planetmaker> but the AI crash so many planes, surely somewhen a plane will also fall on that island
22:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the shoreline needs some work
22:55:55 <planetmaker> yes, but that's the details :P
22:56:35 <frosch123> it definitely uses a different set of colours, so looks all new and fresh
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23:40:40 <JVassie> anyone around who's a dab hand with NML?
23:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone around who's a dab hand with metaquestions?
23:42:58 <JVassie> Anyone here who has an NML environment setup who wouldn't mind quickly compiling a .grf for me from my ready-prepared .nml and .lng files?
23:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> request a repo at the devzone?
23:44:56 <JVassie> was that a suggestion or a question? :)
23:46:58 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
23:53:59 <JVassie> "I you like help to code your Town Names NewGRF, please open a Ticket or meet us on IRC."
23:55:05 <frosch123> so you want a townname project?
23:55:20 <JVassie> I have the .nml and .lng files ready to go
23:56:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: how official is your upload-test thingie?
23:57:11 *** bdavenport has joined #openttd
23:57:11 <frosch123> oh, he said good night half an hour ago
23:57:54 <frosch123> JVassie: better open a ticket then
23:58:04 <frosch123> devzone is currently not in a ready-to-go state
23:58:47 <JVassie> using the 'Apply for a project' link yes?
23:59:01 <JVassie> tracker type, membership, that ok?
continue to next day ⏵
