IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-12-18
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07:43:16 <juzza1> the sprite already has 1cc and 2cc colours, so why do you need "1: return base_sprite_2cc + CB_RESULT_COLOUR_MAPPING_ADD_CC;" recolour mapping for it? was there a time in NML development when 1cc and 2cc werent recolored automatically?
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09:52:24 <andythenorth> hotels are unexpectedly closing in FIRS
09:58:40 <andythenorth> it will be the monthly prod cb running somewhere
09:58:47 <andythenorth> but the code for hotel is non-standard P
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10:19:35 * andythenorth opens 13.5MB of FIRS nml :P
10:20:58 <andythenorth> the nml doesn't show any handling of production cb
10:21:18 <andythenorth> maybe I can just set the 'no close' flag
10:21:27 <andythenorth> this isn't how I recalled it working though :P
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12:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> [18.12.2013 08:43] <juzza1> the sprite already has 1cc and 2cc colours, so why do you need "1: return base_sprite_2cc + CB_RESULT_COLOUR_MAPPING_ADD_CC;" recolour mapping for it? was there a time in NML development when 1cc and 2cc werent recolored automatically? <-- it's a flag, if you leave it out, the colour(s) will stay unmodified
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12:13:10 <juzza1> yes, I didn't realize they both do basically the same thing (setting the flag vs. the tutorial way)
12:20:36 <planetmaker> the tutorial only implements it to have one place to define the colour translation. It's actually a very neat way
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12:56:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, FIRS bulk terminal has an unreferenced spritelayout: nmlc warning: "generated_pnml/bulk_terminal.pnml", line 9530: Block 'bulk_terminal_spritelayout_28' is not referenced, ignoring.
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13:05:02 * andythenorth watches another 6 min compile :)
13:05:11 <andythenorth> I need my mac back :(
13:06:43 <andythenorth> is *any* of nml multi-threaded? I keep seeing it saturate more than one core, allegedly
13:06:55 <andythenorth> which doesn't fit with my mental model of it - single threaded python
13:07:05 <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: compiles here don't take that long :o
13:07:28 <planetmaker> what computer do you work on that it takes 6 minutes for you? (Full compile or just update compile)?
13:07:43 <andythenorth> this is full FIRS compile
13:07:50 <andythenorth> some old mac I found in the office
13:09:05 <planetmaker> 1m34.230s on my office PC
13:09:25 <planetmaker> cheap ~1 year old machine
13:09:33 <andythenorth> sad times for andythenorth
13:09:42 <planetmaker> what happend to your other one?
13:10:13 <planetmaker> did it walk out on you, citing slavery rules or so? :D
13:10:42 <andythenorth> chewed up its SATA cable again
13:10:52 <andythenorth> 4th time that's happened on macs I own
13:10:56 <andythenorth> or it has a defective motherboard
13:11:07 <planetmaker> woot? that's crappy indeed
13:11:23 <andythenorth> repetetitve issue on 13" macbooks it seems
13:11:40 <andythenorth> especially if you swap out the drive yourself for an SSD and aren't ultra careful :P
13:13:48 <V453000> cause it looks like they do
13:13:50 <V453000> could trains changing stats based on current_railtype cause desyncs? :D
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13:15:19 <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: 2m30s here on this vps
13:15:29 <Xaroth|Work> but that can be tweaked
13:15:33 <Xaroth|Work> (make clean && make )
13:21:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: fixed that layout :)
13:23:02 <andythenorth> I wonder if other FIRS town industries have unwanted closures
13:23:08 <andythenorth> I can't see anything to prevent them
13:23:24 <andythenorth> the rest are black holes, only the hotel has production
13:23:36 <andythenorth> and if it has production, maybe the production callback comes by and closes it
13:25:17 <Xaroth|Work> switching preprocess to pypy shaves off another 40s
13:26:08 <Xaroth|Work> heh, got an error though
13:26:27 <Xaroth|Work> nmlc ERROR: "generated_pnml/arable_farm.pnml", line 1561: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values .. but that might be to do with preprocessor running under pypy
13:28:12 <andythenorth> preprocessing is only 6s for me anyway, once caches are primed
13:28:25 <Xaroth|Work> yeh, i'm doing a make clean beforehand though
13:28:43 <andythenorth> sounds like a string processing issue
13:29:01 <andythenorth> there's the answer :)
13:29:18 <Xaroth|Work> sucky chameleon :P
13:33:14 <Xaroth|Work> 1m10s without a make clean, using pypy
13:33:21 <Xaroth|Work> vs 2m44 with make clean
13:34:33 * andythenorth wonders if BLACK_HOLE will produce
13:37:19 <Xaroth|Work> running without pypy, without make clean
13:38:02 <andythenorth> hmm spec is silent
13:38:09 <andythenorth> reading ottd code is faster than this compile :)
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13:57:04 <andythenorth> just saw a black hole industry reset production multiplier (set by cheat)
13:57:13 <andythenorth> let's not think about that too much :P
13:57:27 <andythenorth> can't reproduce it
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14:11:57 <planetmaker> V453000, something like that is the case... we should ask frosch later :)
14:12:17 <V453000> I was already checking if he is present :)
14:12:57 <V453000> either way, I believe public server is not getting desyncs or I have not seen any
14:13:07 <V453000> and it uses hundreds of the trains in question
14:13:33 <V453000> idk the differences between that revsision and 1.3.3 but hm
14:13:45 <planetmaker> the issue is not that generally as you asked it. Some stats shall not change iirc :)
14:14:06 <planetmaker> but I can't recall any change to that end
14:14:06 <V453000> idk, its just power/speed/tractive effort coefficient
14:14:19 <V453000> and the weirdest part is, stable desynced while the trains didnt change anything
14:14:24 <V453000> they ran on the same railtype all the time
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14:56:32 <andythenorth> no Farm Supplies in FIRS basic economies before 1927 :(
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15:18:35 <andythenorth> maybe FIRS 1.3.0 is done :o
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15:26:05 <andythenorth> ok, so the FIRS translations are now becoming too much to add to the changelog
15:26:10 <andythenorth> what with credits and such
15:27:40 <planetmaker> credits are in the commit log
15:32:49 <planetmaker> plus any manual translation additions. There are a few, too
15:34:50 <andythenorth> I can see them :)
15:34:56 <andythenorth> I usually manually copy and paste
15:35:00 <andythenorth> then alphabetise
15:35:23 <andythenorth> that first paste is handy though
15:35:39 <andythenorth> I have to look up the language codes
15:35:57 <planetmaker> it's the output from hg log --template='{desc|tabindent}\n' -r1.2.0:tip | grep 'changes by'
15:36:46 <planetmaker> the 2nd the result of hg log --template='{node}: {desc|tabindent}\n' -r1.2.0:tip | grep 'translation'
15:39:01 <andythenorth> where are lang codes? o_O
15:39:05 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki maybe?
15:39:38 <andythenorth> hmm they're numeric
15:40:04 <andythenorth> this can wait :)
15:40:23 <andythenorth> can we make eints do this? :P
15:40:34 <andythenorth> I am doing menial copy-paste
15:40:40 <andythenorth> which is appropriate to my skill level :P
15:41:22 <Alberth> eints doesn't keep track of history
15:41:44 <planetmaker> I think the question was to have languages in commit messages other than lang codes?
15:41:57 <andythenorth> that would be useful
15:42:05 <Alberth> a script to dig through the change sets would be a good solution imho
15:42:07 <andythenorth> codes aren't always obvious
15:42:34 <planetmaker> well... they are if you looked at them a few times. I dare say I know 90% of those by heart if not more :)
15:42:59 <andythenorth> you're volunteering to update the FIRS changelog? o_O
15:43:13 <planetmaker> but... I dealt too much with language files to pass as average newgrf author in that respect :P
15:43:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I dare say you combine those two pastes of mine and remove duplicates and that's it?
15:44:18 <andythenorth> I always consolidate the lines
15:44:28 <andythenorth> so there's only one line per lang, with credits
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15:44:51 <andythenorth> need to call set() on them :)
15:45:29 <planetmaker> pl -> Polish, sv -> Swedish, hr -> Croatian, ko -> Korean, pt -> Portuguese, fi -> Finnish, nb -> Norwegian (bokmal), zh_TW -> traditional Chinese zh_CN ->simplified Chinese, es -> Spanish
15:49:06 <planetmaker> I possibly could adopt my 'make_changelog' script to sort-out languages automatically
15:53:17 <andythenorth> 1.3.0 now done as RC, but going to sit on it until Christmas Eve or so
15:53:22 <andythenorth> needs testing :)
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16:10:11 <andythenorth> so....do any of you actually use RVs? o_O
16:11:06 <planetmaker> yes. For local traffic (~20 tiles or so) I do use RV. Or if space for stations comes at a premium
16:11:19 <planetmaker> I don't use them for (much) longer distances
16:12:08 <planetmaker> no vehicle type can live with less space on the map than RV
16:13:38 <andythenorth> so why no use on long hauls? Other than it's visually very noisy :P
16:14:49 <planetmaker> too much maintenance and management really. And congestion. One train has easily the capacity of a dozen vehicles
16:15:08 <Alberth> accepting industries are just outside the picture
16:15:31 <planetmaker> speed is somewhat an issue, too - but ... using RV accross the map usually doesn't feel right. It's a train game, right?
16:15:49 <alluke> i like to build freeways and send rvs across the map
16:15:54 <Alberth> whatever makes most money :p
16:15:58 <Taede> untill someone makes a gs that limits traincount
16:16:20 <Pinkbeast> Getting RVs to use bays at a busy station sensibly can be tricky
16:17:40 <Xaroth|Work> tricky being the understatement here
16:18:40 <planetmaker> Taede, why GS? It's a plain and plump general setting
16:18:57 <planetmaker> max_trains = 10 :P
16:19:17 <Xaroth|Work> max_trains = 1 , and make it a map with huge distances between locations
16:19:25 <Xaroth|Work> also, max_planes = 0
16:19:52 <Taede> yes, but player can change that in sp
16:20:16 <Xaroth|Work> if they want to cheat, that's their flaw :P
16:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "max_trains=1" reminds me of the history lesson where my teacher said "after WWI, germany was limited to 6 warships. so they wouldn't forget how a warship looked like"
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16:20:38 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: idea for next ottdc game? :P
16:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: might be fun with autorefit
16:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> enable the option to have always 100% station rating, and send one giant train in circles
16:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and use some RV feeders
16:23:41 <andythenorth> I have tried the giant train mechanic
16:23:47 <andythenorth> it doesn't work with cdist
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17:34:23 <alluke> i just found out that they actually do sing 'back in black' in back in black
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17:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as they don't sing "backstreet's back"
17:40:59 <alluke> and i do have that 'backstreet's back' in my library too :P
17:41:18 <Xaroth|Work> why ruin AC/DC with backstreet girls?
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17:47:24 <alluke> has the development of roadtypes even started
17:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> dozens of years ago
17:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> we even had bits for a "highway" roadtype reserved once
17:48:17 <frosch123> in 1994 there was one roadtype, in 2007 there were two, you can extrapolate for more
17:49:41 <alluke> i was thinking about normal, dirt, and isr roads
17:51:17 <planetmaker> not to forget cobblestone, highway, federal road, local road, tank track, logging track, cross-country race track
17:51:42 <alluke> wouldnt the code be just copypaste from railtypes with some mods
17:52:09 <peter1138> Yeah, you go ahead and try that...
17:52:34 <planetmaker> a clear 'yes, but'
17:52:43 <alluke> i dont know how ottd is coded, just thought if thats possible :P
17:52:47 <planetmaker> (mind the bear traps in the path)
17:52:57 <andythenorth> the development of roadtypes has started at least twice
17:54:12 <alluke> how long did railtypes take from idea to trunk
17:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: you mean from the first guy thinking "there should be electrified rails", over TTDPatch's implementation of elrail, then coming OpenTTD's implementation of elrail, and then adding fully flexible NewGRF railtypes, to the still-planned additional features (like two parallel tracks on the same tile with different railtypes)=
17:59:15 <andythenorth> peter1138: never been tempted to try roadtypes again? o_O
17:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: makes almost 20 years of development now
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18:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: no, but development didn't start with creating openttd...
18:23:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26165 trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp (2013-12-18 18:23:30 UTC)
18:23:34 <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#5832]: Improve layout of build-airport GUI (hackalittlebit)
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19:30:11 <andythenorth> oh you'd love it
19:31:07 <andythenorth> nothing says 'christmas' like RoadTypes rts = GetRoadTypes(tile);
19:32:46 <peter1138> Pretty sure that features in the last patch...
19:33:17 * andythenorth wonders about an ugly attempt to use just a third roadtype
19:33:21 <andythenorth> hard-coded, for personal use :P
19:33:29 <andythenorth> but what would it be? o_O
19:33:41 <andythenorth> there's only one answer to that
19:33:45 <andythenorth> but I don't like to mention your mum
19:35:26 <andythenorth> if you could only pick one extra roadtype, what would it be?
19:35:32 <andythenorth> highway is stupid, we already have that
19:42:17 * andythenorth is not good enough at counting
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20:10:05 <Executioner> I've got a single question: Is there any way to cross a rail owned by other company in multiplayer?
20:11:39 <Executioner> I mean actually crossing, not going over or under it, like multiple companies using the same railway
20:12:01 <andythenorth> not in default game
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20:21:17 <andythenorth> no-one bites on my paste? :)
20:39:17 <Zuu> andythenorth: That is also a possible approach.
20:39:59 <Zuu> Question: Will rails use 4 bits to allow placing on single road bits?
20:40:52 <andythenorth> I figured rails work as tram rails do now
20:40:56 <andythenorth> so no extra bits
20:41:02 <andythenorth> catenary - I don't know if we have the bits
20:41:11 <andythenorth> and building catenary piece by piece would be very boring
20:41:14 <andythenorth> and easy to make mistakes
20:41:19 <andythenorth> so electrify the whole tile, or not
20:41:30 <andythenorth> already it's easy to make mistakes with tram tracks
20:42:16 <andythenorth> also it's not good when I try to specify implementation :)
20:42:19 <Zuu> IIRC newgref checking adjacent tile for graphic selection is a no-no?
20:43:03 <Zuu> Though maybe there can be a cache?
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20:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: it works well for rail tiles
20:51:44 <Zuu> If road tiles can check adjacent tiles for graphic selection at acceptable performance, then a single bit for cantenary could be used and simply leave it up to NewGRFs to use adjacent surface/rail bits decide if dead end catenary should be shown or not.
20:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: but that may cause weird effects
20:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> like imagine a trolleybus road next to a tram line, then every branching road will have catenary stumps connecting the two lines
20:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i'd rather define it "if both road and tram have catenary flag, the tram catenary is drawn"
20:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that means there's no bit in the tile for catenary
20:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> only in the roadtype spec
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21:00:11 <andythenorth> that presumes players constructing by first choosing a type?
21:00:24 * andythenorth has an alternative proposal
21:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> please keep quiet about it
21:07:16 <andythenorth> what, in case anybody gets distracted and stops implementing the non-implementable roadtypes spec? o_O
21:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> also consider a "subway" railtype that has reduced tunnel costs, 3rd rail, and cannot be placed along roads
21:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe a road catenary must provide alternate sprites if tram catenary is present
21:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so the trolley bus catenary will have a different offset
21:14:04 <andythenorth> I'd just ask 'why?'
21:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> because people will build it
21:15:13 <andythenorth> ok, so to support the idea that we must let people build it, we stick to talking hot air about a spec for a feature no-one wants to do, that can't be done?
21:15:18 <andythenorth> to keep the spec pure? :)
21:15:38 <andythenorth> and we can't identify any gameplay benefits for?
21:31:42 <andythenorth> that was 10 entertaining minutes
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21:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a good example for "design by committee"
21:46:07 * andythenorth returns from Wikipedia
22:04:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: how long did it take you to write SV?
22:04:57 <andythenorth> so let's assume you are 5x or 6x better programmer than me
22:05:01 <frosch123> i finished it, so it cannot have taken longer
22:05:04 <andythenorth> so I would need 10 days to do something similar
22:05:30 <andythenorth> I am putting out new FIRS for christmas
22:05:41 <andythenorth> with an economy based on delivering as much as possible to ports
22:05:50 <andythenorth> considering a simple GS to go with it
22:07:18 <andythenorth> some simple cargo goal thing
22:11:56 <andythenorth> ho ho I forgot about that
22:12:01 <Zuu> It's yet another city growth GS, but special in the sense that it is made with FIRS in mind.
22:12:36 <andythenorth> looks interesting
22:12:58 <andythenorth> my idea is something like NoCarGoal, but tailored for specific FIRS economy
22:13:14 <andythenorth> rather than random, which leads to me doing a lot of 'newgame' :P
22:13:39 * andythenorth wonders about creating something like the original TTD scoring
22:14:08 <andythenorth> 10 or so rating items, with 0-10 rating on each
22:14:14 <andythenorth> achieve 80% or more overall for gold
22:14:35 <andythenorth> I have no idea how to handle things like different map sizes, industry density, all that crap though :)
22:14:55 <Zuu> At some point I see that GS could hook into the scoring system in OpenTTD. However, that is mostly just visuals. You can already display a ranking table in the story book.
22:15:19 <andythenorth> that would be plenty enough
22:15:26 <Zuu> That ranking table is not exactly a table. More some lines of text.
22:15:31 <andythenorth> this is things like: each year deliver 10,000t of Coffee
22:15:41 <andythenorth> have a total company value of £100000
22:15:45 <Zuu> I hope I didn't gave the impression of it being a perfect grid.
22:15:59 <andythenorth> 10 lines of text would do
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22:16:17 <Zuu> 10 lines of text are available (or more if you wish)
22:16:32 <andythenorth> transfer at least 3000 crates of engineering supplies to the interior
22:16:41 <andythenorth> transport 25000 workers
22:17:37 <andythenorth> I figure, play a game, figure out how to get all 10, you've had enough. Try a new FIRS economy, with a new GS
22:17:57 <andythenorth> as usual, /me has enough projects though :P
22:23:03 <Zuu> I also do not have the problem of having to few projects :-)
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