IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-07-22
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00:03:47 <Supercheese> Hmmm, is there any way to clone a train but not have it also copy the vehicle group?
00:04:04 <Supercheese> I'd like to clone a consist, but put it in a new vehicle group
00:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> just move it afterwards?
00:23:19 <Supercheese> That's the "minor" part, I can do that
00:23:32 <Supercheese> but I'd rather have an option to put it into Ungrouped
00:23:41 <Supercheese> although I have no idea how that option would be triggered...
00:26:03 <Supercheese> definitely not worth opening a feature request at the bug tracker for :P
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07:55:12 <Supercheese> Has anyone ever made a 3D model of the OTTD logo?
07:56:36 <Aristide> Xaroth|Work: Fake (Work)
07:57:29 <Xaroth|Work> Aristide: I'm actually at work.
07:57:44 <Xaroth|Work> and it's fooking hot in the office
07:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "be at work" is fundametally different from "working" :p
07:58:05 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: You read in my Brain ...
07:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i do that sometimes, yes.
07:59:05 * Aristide put a alarm in brain
07:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it is sometimes not very accurate, though :p
07:59:55 * Aristide push Eddi|zuHause under a trolleybus
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08:00:28 <Supercheese> Rather rude of you :P
08:01:26 <Aristide> Because, trolleybus is ecological
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08:03:26 <Supercheese> Hehe, I call those bug buses because their mirrors look very much like antennae
08:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> we can afford proper trams here :p
08:06:59 <Aristide> What is a look of your tram in your cities ?
08:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> not that ugly :p
08:07:53 <Supercheese> Or, well, hunchfront
08:20:07 <krinn> repo query (the www version) on devzone is out of order :(
08:21:40 <Supercheese> Delicious kitten, you must eat
08:22:16 <Aristide> I want to eat now :(
08:22:56 <Aristide> So, I have again a problem for rails junction in openttd
08:23:13 <Aristide> I have test many signals, but train are blocked at station :(
08:23:13 <Alberth> stop making junctions? :D
08:23:53 <Alberth> I have seen people do that, it creates a lot of tracks :p
08:24:15 <Supercheese> Use only path signals
08:24:46 <Aristide> Supercheese: I try again, but I have already try this
08:25:02 <Aristide> Supercheese: I put path signal at enter of exit of stations AND in junction ?
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08:25:33 <Alberth> path signals go there where it is safe for a train to stop
08:25:37 <Supercheese> Generally, I think you want to put a path signal at each entry point of a junction, and not at the exits
08:25:46 <Supercheese> or at least not until a good ways past the exits
08:25:50 <Alberth> typically without blocking crucial tiles like a junction
08:26:44 <planetmaker> acknowledged krinn. I'm trying to solve the issue right now
08:27:21 <Supercheese> Well, I should sleep, it's 1:30 AM
08:27:31 <Xaroth|Work> you can sleep when you're dead
08:29:01 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: Berlin ?
08:30:50 <Alberth> hmm, the entire signal page should be rewritten to using path signals as primary solution
08:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yeah, i said this many times
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08:37:58 <Aristide> The train (in station) is waiting a free path :/
08:38:30 <planetmaker> Aristide, yes... it tries to go where the other train waits
08:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> did you disable 90° turns?
08:38:50 <planetmaker> you might want to assign specific drive directions to tracks. By using one-way path signals
08:38:54 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: Without this signals its work ^^'
08:38:59 <planetmaker> instead of the ones which can be passed through from the back
08:39:16 <Aristide> planetmaker: I replace pathsignals with one direction signals ?
08:40:10 <krinn> lol your junction lack rails so trains wishing to take the most left and coming from your station just cannot enter it
08:40:10 <Alberth> so where is the train in the station supposed to go?
08:40:24 <Aristide> Alberth: At the empty rails
08:40:37 <Alberth> I don't see a track leading to it
08:41:03 <Aristide> I have reload my save :
08:41:27 <Xaroth|Work> that's not really efficient tho :o
08:42:07 <Aristide> Ok no, the problem its me x)
08:42:19 <Alberth> Aristide: what happens if you turn the train around?
08:43:16 <Aristide> Sorry, my English is not very well, I don't very understand question
08:43:38 <Alberth> click on the train in the station, it is going to the other train
08:43:50 <Alberth> click on the turn around button
08:43:59 <krinn> Aristide, il se passe quoi si tu retournes le train (y'a un bouton pour changer de direction)
08:44:02 <planetmaker> it's the same save as yesterday? The real problem is that tracks are not assigned a direction
08:44:14 <Alberth> then it should find the exit
08:44:22 <planetmaker> thus trains may wait for a free path when sitting engine front to engine front at stations
08:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Aristide: the technical explanation what happens: the train has two options to exit the station: forward through the 90° turn and the other platform, and backwards through the waiting train. the pathfinder gets to the conclusion that the backwards way is "shorter" (has less penalties)
08:44:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 90° is not the problem there. it's allowed
08:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "empty platform" has higher penalty than "occupied track"
08:45:04 <Aristide> planetmaker: I try with one direction signals :)
08:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a rather common problem, maybe we should adjust the defaults there
08:45:37 <planetmaker> you mean one-way pbs being default?
08:45:44 <Alberth> Aristide: you should add a junction in front of the station instead
08:46:02 <Alberth> and use one-way path signals also helps
08:46:28 <planetmaker> yeah. the 90° behind the stations is... very ugly. build an X in front.
08:46:53 <Xaroth|Work> or use a proper roro station layout :)
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08:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there are A LOT of solutions for your problem
08:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. make your station only 1 track, the other track should be just "empty rail"
08:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (there is no point in going again through the station that you just left)
08:50:12 <Aristide> Yeah its work now o/
08:50:18 <Zuu> Or make the station a Ro-Ro where both tracks are used in the same direction and provide a loop back next to the station (or some tiles away to allow wider curve radius) - which is effectivly what Eddi|zuHause suggests, just that he reduces the size of the station.
08:51:33 <krinn> funny that new players are coming
08:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't they?
08:52:20 <Alberth> CS is doing all kinds of advertising for us :p
08:52:21 <krinn> even without considering tt, openttd itself is quiet old
08:53:09 <planetmaker> hehe, can be seen as such, too, Alberth :-)
08:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> inventor of the game, you know
08:53:54 <Alberth> krinn: so what's a better transport game? most of the current games are about 1st persons shooting other 1st persons
08:54:45 <lugo> Propably stupid question, the readmes of GSs are not in the lang folder, so if i translate one, does openttd know which readme to display? like if i name it readme_de.txt or something
08:55:20 <planetmaker> you got it right :-)
08:56:28 <planetmaker> (now I hope it works for GS and AI the same way it works for NewGRF, that readme actually *can* be translated) :D
08:57:33 <krinn> well, you can still put translate inside the readme won't disturb anyone except if you start translate to 300 language or your readme is a bible
08:57:54 <krinn> like if anyone read readme :)
08:58:39 <Xaroth|Work> 32.7C in the office atm
08:58:48 <Xaroth|Work> not even 30C outside yet
08:59:19 <Xaroth|Work> no, snot funny :(
08:59:21 <planetmaker> switch computers in reverse heat mode :D
08:59:30 <planetmaker> convert heat into power
08:59:44 <Xaroth|Work> I was contemplating building a steam turbine on the roof
08:59:44 <Zuu> Alberth: And if you tell people that you play OpenTTD, they will later ask do you play any real comersial games? :-p
08:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> what a great idea!! we could solve the world's energy crisis!!
09:00:10 <planetmaker> to let off your steam, Xaroth ? >:-)
09:00:25 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: and to generate power (and thus money) from that :)
09:00:28 <Alberth> Zuu: didn't happen to me yet
09:00:59 <krinn> Alberth, do you play any real commercial game ?
09:01:00 <Xaroth|Work> Zuu: then I tell them that I get a better experience while playing from an open source game, than i get from 50 commercial games combined
09:01:52 <planetmaker> Xaroth, one of the main obstacles for me to play commercial games, no joke, is that I need to reboot to windows most of the time
09:01:59 <Alberth> krinn: does rollercoaster tycoon 2 count? :)
09:02:02 <planetmaker> which leaves me usually with a very bad user experience ;-)
09:02:20 <planetmaker> I then want back the way things usually work... which they simply don't then
09:02:25 <Xaroth|Work> that doesn't happen with steam most of the time
09:02:30 <Alberth> planetmaker: easy solution: rm -rf /dev/windows :)
09:02:56 <planetmaker> Alberth, well... :-) simple solution: don't reboot to windows. No reason except commercial games really
09:03:07 <Xaroth|Work> I haven't rebooted my windows machine in.. months
09:03:18 <Xaroth|Work> (I should, really, but I can't be arsed)
09:03:22 <planetmaker> and, I guess I'm here as there are also very nice open-source games :D
09:03:32 <planetmaker> same here, Xaroth :-)
09:03:42 <Alberth> I haven't found a commercial game recently worth buying windows for
09:03:58 <Xaroth|Work> only one I play atm is dota 2
09:04:03 <Xaroth|Work> which is available on linux now too
09:04:32 <krinn> i only brought idsoftware games (except the last one) because of that
09:04:53 <Zuu> The last commersial game that I bought was Sim City 4 Deluxe. (except for Ticket To Ride online)
09:04:58 <planetmaker> I marvel your patience, Alberth
09:05:20 <Alberth> in fact I hardly play games other than tinkering in software :)
09:05:35 <planetmaker> in fact that's true for me meanwhile, too
09:05:54 <planetmaker> some table-top RPG or real board games excluded
09:07:25 <Alberth> such a useful topic: "Question" at tt-forums :)
09:09:40 <planetmaker> you're right. I changed title :D
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09:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i also played a bunch of board games recently. some are actually quite fun
09:24:11 <krinn> planetmaker, :) dev www down but not only repo this time
09:25:15 <krinn> told you to not host it with a zx81 !
09:25:26 <peter1139> don't touch the memory pack
09:27:16 <peter1139> "permission to transfer €5,000,000,000 into your bank account" yeah... go ahead
09:27:41 <planetmaker> krinn, currently a reload might help at times... there seems something intermittent going wrong
09:29:52 <krinn> planetmaker, ah yes working now
09:30:58 <planetmaker> well... gunicorn eats LOADs of memory currently... more than is good for it
09:31:25 <planetmaker> is someone pulling zbase via http?
09:32:58 <Zuu> planetmaker: perheps you can see that in the access logs?
09:37:25 <Alberth> unicorns seem to control the world, or the devzone at least :p
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09:50:30 <planetmaker> well. if nothing helps, a reboot does :D
09:55:07 <wakou2> Hi all & planetmaker, yesterday planetmaker gave me some links to archives of some co-op games etc, also 'the junctionary'....
09:55:26 <wakou2> I can't load/run these games due to missing files..
09:56:08 <wakou2> and the missing files do not automatically download.. can they be found somewhere else?
09:56:35 <Alberth> you have a different hostname :)
09:57:45 <planetmaker> he, indeed. but it likely is the same page, Alberth :-)
10:03:39 <wakou2> OK I have the ottdc_grfpack_8.0.tar.gz
10:05:25 <wakou2> In my content download folder, all the downloaded files are .tar, but inside the pack there are folders containing .grf's do I just extract to the content_download folder?
10:05:28 <Alberth> that's the easy part :p Understanding what they built is much more complicated :)
10:05:48 <Alberth> you can keep .tar files, openttd can read them
10:06:41 <wakou2> Alberth: yes but in the pack are folders, and files with .grf extensions
10:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> wakou2: you do NOT extract into the content_download folder, because that is reserved for the ingame download. there are other folders for your manual downloads
10:07:00 <wakou2> Just extract the tar.gz to that folder?
10:07:28 <Alberth> oh, and content_download is for the in-game downloader, not for manually installed newgrfs. You put those in 'newgrf'
10:08:40 <Alberth> just gzip -d of the .tar.gz file should be sufficient
10:09:29 <Alberth> although it will also work if you unpack it to a directory tree
10:10:08 <Alberth> but the latter is harder to maintain, as files are not bundled nicely any more
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10:16:07 <wakou2> I just clicked on it and used Ark... extract here, use sub-directories.... First co-op save-game I tried works ok :)
10:42:46 <krinn> guys i have a station with a train that doesn't load anything, while another one do
10:42:58 <krinn> checked cargo, ok, orders = same
10:43:07 <krinn> checked wagons == cargotype
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11:17:52 <Alberth> I guess we need a save game?
11:18:14 <krinn> i do have one, but the ai of course crash while making it :P
11:18:25 <Alberth> or just delete the train and share/clone a new one :p
11:18:43 <krinn> well, the idea is finding "why"
11:19:30 <krinn> you know a www to upload the save (like wgetpaste but for binary) ?
11:21:30 <planetmaker> krinn, tt-f. Where you can also ask the question about the savegame ;-)
11:21:53 <krinn> i'm not really in mood to show how my ai is now working with trains :)
11:21:59 <krinn> kinda not really proud for now
11:26:11 <krinn> lol "temp upload binary file" in google gave "Binary mode of temp file in Rails · Issue" link... in google result, looks like google knows i like rails
11:27:32 <planetmaker> ruby on rails ;-)
11:27:40 <planetmaker> devzone also has rails :D
11:30:45 <krinn> amazing all www i try to upload a binary file are down
11:32:00 <planetmaker> all come with a free scan by NSA ;-)
11:32:33 <krinn> i should have said : one free, and without some kinda of reg need
11:33:17 * planetmaker thinks 'rather not'
11:37:32 <krinn> ok made a thread (really cannot find a binary sharing)
11:47:32 <Zuu> krinn: I don't know why it happers. But does it also happen without the "modify production values cheat"? I can't see why that would affect it though.
11:48:29 <krinn> Zuu, can't answer that, i only use that production cheat as it help the ai making bigger station to provide servicing
11:48:44 <krinn> so i don't have a "no cheat" version
11:49:07 <krinn> and i only saw it on that savegame (maybe it had happen before but as i keep reloading the ai didn't saw)
11:50:05 <krinn> i have try disabling (in the samegame it should be set like that) cargodist
11:50:19 <krinn> maybe it's that ? but some trains are working, only 3 aren't
11:51:20 <krinn> funny if you compare train9 & train13 they do the same, except 9 is stuck (and have two goto depot orders the other don't have)
12:21:38 <Xaroth|Work> hm, worldgen page has no 'random' button for climate
12:22:04 <Alberth> krinn: perhaps because you have a stop depot order in train 1?
12:22:05 <planetmaker> yeah... Xaroth the 'new game' workflow needs a serious rework
12:22:23 <Xaroth|Work> could use some dumbing down as well yeh
12:22:36 <planetmaker> first of all: stream-lining
12:22:46 <planetmaker> like moving newgrf and ai and settings selection there
12:22:54 <krinn> Alberth, yeah, the 3 stucks trains have stop depot
12:22:58 <planetmaker> otherwise you generate a map and then "eh what?"
12:23:07 <Alberth> if I delete that order, it starts loading
12:23:14 <krinn> Alberth, but i don't see why it could be a problem, it's not like the depot isn't working or something
12:23:31 <Alberth> there is no cargo going nowhere?
12:23:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: one day, we'll fix that newgame workflow
12:23:58 <krinn> Alberth, both train the 9 is stuck, but the 13 with is working fine
12:24:48 <krinn> the wagons are refit as they should (in fact i don't think they are refit at all)
12:25:00 <Alberth> krinn: it looks like a bug to me, perhaps open an issue for it, so fonsinchen can have a look at it?
12:25:14 <Xaroth|Work> I also don't get why there's 10 different SuperLib entries in the bananananananas listing
12:25:24 <Alberth> ie it may have to do with the recent cargodist changes
12:25:34 <krinn> Alberth, tbh i think it's that
12:25:45 <krinn> i have activate it, seeing it wasn't doing anything i could understand
12:26:00 <krinn> see the stuck trains and disable it then (so they are disable in the savegame)
12:26:25 <krinn> but sending the train by hand to other station and when it come back : stuck again
12:26:34 <Zuu> Xaroth|Work: That is because there are 10 different AIs/GSs that depend on different versions of SuperLib. Each listing show a specific version of SuperLib.
12:26:59 <Xaroth|Work> Zuu: I understand that; that still doesn't make it right
12:27:26 <krinn> Zuu : it might be good to add a "no version" (with latest shown) and a kind of "+" to show all versions (for ones that need a specific one)
12:27:33 <Zuu> There has been a suggestion to hide dependency content unless it has been selected on the filtered content screens.
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12:27:49 <Xaroth|Work> how is an average user going to know what he needs?
12:27:56 <Xaroth|Work> he has to click several times to even find the latest version
12:28:06 <Xaroth|Work> counter intuitive
12:28:11 <Zuu> A average user will never select to download SuperLib manually.
12:28:34 <Zuu> It is a library and we have a dependency system to sort that out.
12:28:45 <Xaroth|Work> then it should only show one
12:29:13 <Xaroth|Work> or the library should be more backwards compatible
12:29:42 <Zuu> The library is backwards compatible, but AIs / GSs always depend+import a specific version.
12:29:54 <krinn> Xaroth, i see av8 v1.81 av8 v2.21 in content download: what's wrong newGRF could and AIs can't ?
12:30:10 <Xaroth|Work> krinn: i haven't even got to the newgrf list
12:30:18 <Zuu> I don't oppose your idea to filter some of them out of the list. It's just that I haven't prioritized it over other things to code.
12:31:06 <krinn> So many things, and only 2 hands...
12:31:44 <krinn> lol and half a brain sometimes
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12:34:24 <fonsinchen> Train 9 doesn't load because it's going to stop in the depot
12:34:40 <fonsinchen> It knows it's never going to reach narbonne
12:35:25 <Alberth> cargodist is not switched on
12:35:27 <fonsinchen> Actually it seems you've recently switched cargodist off
12:35:40 <Zuu> according to the gamelog no settings were changed
12:35:43 <krinn> yes switch it off because i see the stuck trains
12:35:48 <fonsinchen> Oh, that's a problem
12:36:03 <fonsinchen> when switching off, the "minimal" flows remain
12:36:16 <fonsinchen> I need to fix that
12:36:19 <krinn> yes, but the switch were ON and i switch them OFF to unstuck my trains
12:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> man nick colours are soo bad...
12:37:15 <Alberth> krinn: with cargodist ON, you could defend that the train is not supposed to carry anything
12:37:17 <Zuu> fonsinchen: For some reason changing distribution mode doesn't show up when you type 'gamelog' in the console.
12:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i have to read it 6 times to realize there's a different person speaking than i thought it was
12:37:33 <Zuu> If you try any other game setting, they will be logged in the game and show up there.
12:37:43 <krinn> Alberth, that's what i was thinking, stuck because maybe the cargodist disallow it to get any cargo
12:37:46 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: time for a plugin to set custom fixed nick colours? :)
12:38:44 <krinn> fonsinchen, i could run a test ai in openttd with cargodist again and wait seeing if it reproduce if you wish
12:39:04 <fonsinchen> I know the problem already
12:39:21 <krinn> i think there's a relation with orders, as stuck trains have orders with depot in it (all of them)
12:39:36 <fonsinchen> When removing a node from the routing scheme completely normally you want to keep some "minimal" flows to allow any remaining cargo to be routed
12:39:49 <fonsinchen> You don't want that when you're switching distribution modes, though.
12:40:17 <fonsinchen> And "stop" orders lead to vehicles not loading any cargo before
12:40:26 <fonsinchen> because what would they do with it in the depot?
12:40:45 <fonsinchen> The latter is by design
12:41:05 <krinn> fonsinchen, it's my AI, don't ask too much logic with orders, except raw one : it's allow, let's go :)
12:41:23 <fonsinchen> Why are you actually using "stop" orders?
12:41:30 <Alberth> Belugas: In case you confuse me with an Albert in Belgium, he gave up the throne a few days ago :p
12:41:42 <fonsinchen> But right after loading?
12:41:55 <fonsinchen> usually you'd load cargo and deliver it then
12:42:07 <fonsinchen> rather than hording it in a depot
12:42:18 <Alberth> krinn: wouldn't it more useful to stop after unloading?
12:42:33 <krinn> Alberth, not if you count the distance
12:42:47 <Xaroth|Work> cargodist was in 1.3.1 right?
12:42:59 <Belugas> yeah, i'v seen it, Alberth. long live Alberth!
12:43:20 <fonsinchen> If a compelling case can be made for storing cargo in a depot I can change the logic but I don't quite understand the intention in that savegame.
12:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> only in nightly/1.4(-alpha)
12:44:04 <Alberth> you cannot drive back to the loading station, and then go to the depot?
12:44:27 <Alberth> ie you have to go back any way
12:44:30 <krinn> fonsinchen, station1+depot and station+depot sending train to station1/depot1 station2/depot2 avoid sending train taking time to goes to station2 deliver and goto depot2 (that may not even exist)
12:45:10 <krinn> i don't have to go back : existing depot1 train is set to station1
12:45:10 <fonsinchen> Could you write a few complete sentences about that in the forums thread, please?
12:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: you're not delivering anything, so why expect to load anything?
12:45:28 <Zuu> krinn: But why do you have 'stop' order for the depots and not just 'service' or 'go to'?
12:46:13 <krinn> Zuu, making sure it will stop at one or the other, not to service but to trigger the depot event
12:46:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you bring insulation matrace and sleeping bag as well, will you?
12:46:39 <planetmaker> and V453000 ^, right?
12:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: need to search for that
12:47:06 <krinn> it's an AI remember: if i need to add wagon i need to watch what my train is doing OR easier: forcing it stop at depot getting the event and openttd tell me it is ready to get more wagons
12:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to have an air matrace but i think that one was broken
12:48:03 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i'm delivering goods, lol except for the stucks trains, they aren't toys trains that travel for nothing :)
12:48:08 <planetmaker> I'd like to reserve the stuff I have for the people who really travel long distance and don't come by car.
12:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i do think whatever you're trying to do needs some rearranging, and cargodist is right to handle stop-in-depot this way
12:49:24 <krinn> a bit hard to say a stop in depot order isn't a valid order
12:50:22 <Alberth> krinn: customers of the cargo don't like cargo to stay in depots :)
12:50:45 <krinn> Alberth, fuck customers : companies do what they want with ressources
12:50:58 <krinn> and keeping away ressources rise their demand and prize :)
12:52:06 <planetmaker> dihedral, you also bring insulation matrace and sleeping bag, yes, please?
12:53:15 <krinn> but honeslty if you gave a package to your local postmail and their train need some maintenance, they will swap the loco with another one : all in all even faster (and it's not really doable for me in openttd) : the mail company will take more time to carry it, and don't really care
12:58:14 <krinn> i don't think my logic is broken there, but more the one that imply loading at a station you cannot go to a depot : well in life they do it a lot : loading passenger at stationX, going to depot at stationZ add 3 coal wagons, going to station Y drop passenger, going to K drop coal
13:01:33 <fonsinchen> Depot stops should actually invalidate last_loading_station
13:01:44 <fonsinchen> So that the link doesn't show up in the first place
13:02:11 <krinn> oh, and maybe you think that's "normal orders" ?
13:02:23 <fonsinchen> They're not normal
13:02:23 <krinn> on depot exit depot orders are removed from the list
13:02:38 <fonsinchen> Without further interaction the train is stuck in the depot forever
13:03:31 <krinn> then cargodist have a problem there, and even i could avoid it by sending my train deliver before going to depot (it's easy to do), it's not something i should have to do
13:04:32 <krinn> and if you wish knows, it's an AI and # of orders help me : 2 orders good, 4 orders + going to depot state = normal, other value, i need to check and rebuild my orders
13:04:46 <fonsinchen> The problem is that the link shows up
13:05:06 <fonsinchen> If the link wouldn't be constructed then no cargo would be routed and your plan would work
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13:05:13 <krinn> it show up because that train have "normal orders" goto there load, goto there unload
13:05:27 <krinn> and the AI add the 2 depot order only when the AI need the train to stopped
13:06:11 <fonsinchen> nope, they don't have normal orders
13:06:16 <fonsinchen> the link shouldn't be there
13:06:24 <krinn> sure i could replace the 2 orders with only the 2 goto depot order to avoid that bug, but i will loose ability to knows what the train is doing by comparing number of orders in the train
13:10:25 <krinn> well, i could see why as human you dislike that way of doing, but i don't see any reason to consider that not a "normal" action, even you think it's a dumb action, it's then just a dumb normal action :)
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13:15:16 <fonsinchen> I can't count on the "normal" player to restart the vehicle everytime it stops in the depot.
13:15:34 <fonsinchen> After all, the "stop" order is made for the exact opposite effect
13:16:17 <krinn> yeah, but i agree on that, an ai isn't a normal player, but still it's a normal action for openttd that exist since tt
13:18:44 <krinn> you need issue open to track it or it's ok ?
13:22:16 <fonsinchen> I already have a patch that prevents the link from being created
13:22:25 <fonsinchen> From my perspective the problem is solved
13:22:39 <fonsinchen> If you want to discuss it any further you should open a ticket
13:22:41 <Zuu> krinn: If you need to store information about a vehicle, you have 31 chars in the vehicle name.
13:23:14 <Zuu> CluelessPlus store vehicle state information in the vehicle name.
13:23:34 <Zuu> For example vehicles that are sent for selling have 'sell' in their name.
13:23:42 <krinn> Zuu, i use that trick on my group, as i see you've done it with station name and vehicle, but i avoid it, i don't like human player seeing too much weird name in station or vehicle name
13:24:24 <Zuu> krinn: Doing it on the group is smart to avoid it on stations. The vehicle name is however not visible to players unless they specifically look at it.
13:24:50 <krinn> Zuu, don't worry, i could also avoid it by swapping the two orders with 4 goto depot orders too, i'm not really scared by the bug, but it's really a bug, as goto depot is a normal action :P
13:25:30 <Zuu> goto depot is a normal order, yes. But the 'stop in depot' flag is not.
13:26:03 <Zuu> Its added when you need to maintain a vehicle. Or hidden behind a conditional order so that old vehicles go to depot for selling automatically.
13:26:29 <krinn> well, that's what i do, i add it for maintenance
13:26:54 <krinn> without the need to send the train to depot to alter it, the orders are just goto there and goto there
13:26:54 <Zuu> But the order doesn't stay there forever do it?
13:27:07 <krinn> no, they are removed on depot exit
13:27:52 <Zuu> So in that case you could modify the load order from 'full load' to 'load availablle' in the event that you add maintainence orders because you want a train to the depot.
13:28:28 <krinn> or just push goto depots X, goto depot Y, goto depot X, goto depot Y to keep my 4 orders value
13:28:40 <krinn> as i said i can avoid it a lot
13:28:48 <krinn> or i could even disable train if cargodist is enable
13:29:33 <krinn> but one human will came and complain, because legit stupid things are legit, even stupid and one will do that for sure
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14:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, in civ4 i'm missing the information how long the space ship travels :/
14:38:04 <planetmaker> you're playing? We expect CETS finished by Saturday! ;-)
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14:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't work on CETS with a huge issue like this on my mind! :p
14:40:05 <planetmaker> add the spaceship to CETS and see how long it travels ;-)
14:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no openttd map that contains both earth and alpha centauri
14:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, it takes 20 turns for my cultural victory, and two other nations have started their space ship in the same turn. and i have no idea whether i have to do anything about that (i.e. capture their space program site)
14:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i also built a space ship as a side-project, but it would take 12 further turns to complete
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14:55:48 <planetmaker> travel time does vary, doesn't it? Depending on engines included in the ship and its overall mass / size?
15:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that was different in various civ version
15:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't find that info in civ4
15:03:48 <planetmaker> just start your icbms then ;-)
15:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it does have a victory condition chart, but it says there only how many parts the others have completed, not how fast it will arrive
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16:23:54 <V453000> planetmaker: of course :)
16:24:51 <planetmaker> :-) Just trying to make sure that everyone can actually sleep here who wants :D
16:25:04 <planetmaker> will be crowded this time, I guess
16:25:14 <planetmaker> but with the space under the roof it might actually work
16:25:29 <planetmaker> crowded, but oh well. It's only one night and... a short one at that, most likely :D
16:25:50 <V453000> actually I can sleep in the car without any problems, too
16:26:02 <V453000> there is 2m space if I take out 2 seats and leave 3rd seat for eddi :)
16:26:02 <planetmaker> sounds uncomfortable
16:26:11 <V453000> you would be surprised :)
16:26:15 <planetmaker> but you bring smatz, yes?
16:26:26 <V453000> hopefully, got to write him naow
16:26:46 <planetmaker> as I haven't heard anything from him since... well... then when you noticed it, too
16:27:04 <V453000> superior phone technologies!
16:27:21 <V453000> what time did you say we should ~arrive?
16:27:33 <planetmaker> I do have a phone number from him, too... after all I spend a few nights at his place already 2(?) years ago
16:28:00 <V453000> that will probably be more than 2 years ago if it is the same occasion as I heard about some years ago :P
16:28:10 <planetmaker> +- whatever suits you really. Maybe not before noon as I'll then still get BBQ stuff, but otherwise it should be fine, I guess
16:28:41 <planetmaker> wow. 2010 was the last meeting? Looong ago
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17:01:33 <Xaroth|Work> wow, TI3's prize pot is getting insane O_O
17:01:37 <Xaroth|Work> 2.6 million already
17:01:54 <Xaroth|Work> The International
17:03:31 <Xaroth|Work> (mind, this is 600k more than the previous largest prize pool)
17:04:12 <frosch123> is this comparable to sc2's wcs?
17:04:30 <frosch123> (the event, the prizepool seems to be more)
17:04:56 <Xaroth|Work> the previous largest was for League of Legends, at 1.97m
17:05:03 <Xaroth|Work> (same type of game, both MOBA's)
17:05:19 <V453000> I think sc2 events are for one person more, but throughout the year ... dota is like 1 international and then some small events which arent even comparable
17:05:26 <frosch123> well, it all depends on the number of "sub-tournaments" :p
17:05:32 <Xaroth|Work> there are a lot of small events though
17:05:50 <Xaroth|Work> every week at least 10 running tournaments
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17:06:14 <Xaroth|Work> with prizes for those ranging between 2k and 50k
17:06:15 <frosch123> sc2 wcs is like 3 (?) seasons, with 3 regional tournaments each
17:08:01 <V453000> did Esc key always work to cancel chat window or am I on drugs?
17:08:53 <frosch123> V453000: if it wasn't always, then it got added half a year ago
17:09:09 <frosch123> i unified the behaviour of all editboxes
17:09:10 <V453000> well it doesnt work now for some reason :s
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17:09:19 <frosch123> so, if something changes, then then :p
17:09:34 <frosch123> cursor must be in editbox likely
17:10:10 <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: 4 times more money for 1st compared to 2nd feels wrong :p
17:10:12 <V453000> srsly chat should be possible to cancel with esc
17:11:05 <Xaroth|Work> frosch123: it kinda does, but it makes the drive to win that much more real :D
17:12:14 <V453000> TI3 will go to china again anyway, wont it
17:12:20 <V453000> I mean the 1st places
17:12:31 <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: sc2 finals either end in 4:0 and are boring, or they end in 4:3 which is kinda lucky :p
17:15:51 <Xaroth|Work> frosch123: that happens sometimes, yes
17:17:05 *** kais58_11 is now known as kais58|AFK
17:17:05 <frosch123> hmm, eg has no official dota team? (only alliance)
17:17:56 <Xaroth|Work> there's usually a dozen on twitch.tv
17:18:01 <Xaroth|Work> sometimes players themselves streaming
17:18:19 <frosch123> that's the normal case for sc2 :p
17:18:30 <Xaroth|Work> but once a tournament is up, like now, people all huddle up at the 'professional' casters
17:18:31 *** frosch123 is now known as frosch
17:18:34 <Xaroth|Work> who actually know where to look :P
17:18:56 <V453000> frosch: that "chat feature" is seriously annoying :( could you please put that back
17:19:27 <frosch> well, i never login to any forum for just reading, so i naturally also get some dota2 stuff via teamliquid.net :p
17:19:41 <frosch> V453000: what's the problem?
17:20:05 <frosch> is esc working and it should not, or is it not working and it should?
17:21:06 <V453000> not working and it hell should :D you cant cancel chat other than by pressing enter to send it atm
17:21:30 <frosch> well, i did not remove it :p
17:21:38 <V453000> it is somehow broken now :(
17:22:18 <frosch> do you have any other window open, which might catch the esc?
17:22:29 <V453000> are you shitting me :D idk
17:22:50 <frosch> well, does anything else happen when you press esc?
17:22:57 <frosch> like cancel tool, close other window?
17:23:21 <frosch> anyway, esc works fine for me, if cursor is inside chatbox
17:23:44 <V453000> oh you mean the | cursor
17:23:57 <V453000> sec im going to try it in starcraft
17:24:50 <frosch> Wolf01: V did hit ESC too hard, and now the key is broken
17:24:57 <frosch> and he tries to blame ottd on that
17:25:31 <V453000> seriously I am using this keyboard for 2 weeks or less
17:25:53 <frosch> ah, then it's obviously the keyboard
17:26:02 <frosch> my keyboard is 15 years old
17:26:10 <V453000> its total shit though, must get my mechanical beast asap
17:26:21 <frosch> why should a key break from one day to another if it managed 15 years?
17:26:58 <V453000> my keyboard is shit, not questioning your 15 year old thing
17:27:32 <frosch> oh, i am lieing, it already has an euro symbol, so it's likely only 10 or so
17:28:06 <V453000> ofc my keyboard is broken
17:28:10 <Rubidium> the simpler the keyboard, the better it (generally) is
17:28:30 <frosch> i also have access to a classic ibm M monstee
17:28:53 <V453000> you have a mechanical keyboard frosch ?
17:29:36 <frosch> no idea actually, back then they did not have so fancy names
17:29:46 <frosch> but it does noise and it works :)
17:29:58 <frosch> and you can press the space bar on either end, and it gets the trigger
17:30:06 <V453000> likely mechanical then ... :) I plan on getting one too in the near future
17:30:11 * peter1139 has one with cherry mx blues
17:30:18 <peter1139> not quite the same as model m-ness
17:30:21 <V453000> I cant seem to decide between browns and blues
17:30:48 <peter1139> it's a ducky zero, so no pointless frills
17:31:00 <peter1139> although i remapped the volume keys into media keys
17:31:01 <V453000> I am getting wasd keyboard :)
17:31:20 <peter1139> i have pink wasd i could put on, but i decided not to :p
17:31:39 <V453000> I mean the wasdkeyboards brand, not that it has mardked wasd keycaps :D
17:32:35 <V453000> I was wondering if it is that much of a problem to "double click" etc with blues?
17:32:46 <V453000> I mean, many gaming keyboards use it too, so ... :s
17:33:12 <peter1139> activation pressure is quite low though so sometimes i mis-press
17:33:26 <V453000> hm well brown is even less stiff isnt it
17:34:47 <peter1139> MX white is a stiffer click switch but nobody uses it
17:35:02 <V453000> ok, yesterday I was more leaned towards brown, today I dont know what :D
17:35:18 <peter1139> yeah i ummed and ahhed over it
17:35:32 <peter1139> i basically only went with the blue cos i'd tried it briefly
17:35:43 <peter1139> on a razor keyboard iirc
17:36:02 <peter1139> tried reds on a corsair but that wasn't for me
17:36:07 <V453000> I am kind of like, if mechanical keyboard, then make it have the mechanical features it should have
17:36:31 <V453000> mhm, I think the tactile thingy is nice, so I dont really consider reds/blacks
17:37:48 <V453000> cherry mx clear == white?
17:39:10 <peter1139> the corsair was a con, only the main keys are cherries
17:39:38 <peter1139> f-keys and some others are rubber dome
17:43:28 * peter1139 waits for flash to load
17:43:36 <peter1139> that's... different
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17:44:45 <frosch> it clearly lacks unicorns
17:45:17 <V453000> top priority: it has Any key
17:46:42 <V453000> anyway, the logic is to have "checkerboard" for first-sight obviousnes which key is which, also they are engraved in checkerboard
17:49:40 <V453000> some are really funny
17:49:46 <V453000> e.g. whole clear keyboard with only ASDF :D
17:51:58 <frosch> i like the complete black one without labels :p
17:52:07 <frosch> such a contrast to the rest :p
17:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> for the record, i hate "wasd"-type of controls
17:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't control faster/slower and left/right with the same hand
17:53:46 <frosch> racing games are not taken serious anyway
17:54:31 <frosch> V453000: why do all of those keyboards have win keys?
17:54:43 <V453000> most games are on windoze? :D
17:54:45 <frosch> i know so many people and gamers who remove those keys from their keyboard
17:54:52 <V453000> idk but you can remove it with linux penguin
17:55:00 <Aristide> Drive bus or train in openttd can be fun
17:55:09 <V453000> well, idk, iz standard
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17:55:26 <V453000> most "truly gaming" keyboards have a switch to disable it along with alt tab etc
17:55:40 <Supercheese> The left Windows key is a very useful key
17:55:45 <Supercheese> the right Windows key, not so much
17:55:45 <frosch> well, it feels so common, that it is surprising that it is no option in a completely individual layout .p
17:55:59 <Supercheese> same with right ctrl, who the hell uses right ctrl
17:56:20 <frosch> right shift is common, if i need to type with one hand or so
17:56:30 <V453000> ^ but right ctrl is really worthless
17:56:40 <V453000> idk what right alt is for either
17:56:54 <frosch> yeah, the text on the right ctrl is a lot better readable :p
17:57:10 <frosch> right alt is an important thing on german keyboards
17:57:15 <frosch> you get fancy characters with it
17:57:42 <V453000> I guess that is why there is Alt Gr eh :D
17:57:44 <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever pressed my right alt or right ctrl
17:57:52 <frosch> some years back i always mapped right alt on the right windows key, because it is in the place where the right alt was before :p
17:58:24 <Xaroth|Work> I only use it because dota uses it.. else the right ctrl/alt are never used
17:58:38 <Supercheese> ... well, I just did :P
18:00:19 <Xaroth|Work> because it's 30+C inside atm :|
18:00:39 <Kyler> i dont know C temps i only know F temps
18:00:53 <Supercheese> Must be a fellow American
18:01:38 <Xaroth|Work> you can always do "30C in F" in google
18:01:43 <Xaroth|Work> it'll convert for you
18:01:45 <Kyler> one time at my house it got to 103F , ya ture
18:02:05 <Xaroth|Work> well, it was 95 in the office earlier
18:02:06 <frosch> Xaroth|Work: 100F is the temperature of a healthy cow
18:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> my keyboard only has a left windows key
18:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it did annoy me a handful of times in the beginning
18:02:49 <Xaroth|Work> frosch: that helps.. i guess
18:02:51 <peter1139> back in the day we were annoyed that they existed at all ;p
18:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i use win+stuff as some global hotkeys
18:03:57 <Supercheese> The only good celsius temperatures I can easily recall are 0C = 32F for freezing, 100C = 212F for boiling, and 37C = 98.6F for human body temperature
18:04:10 <Supercheese> anything in between is nebulous
18:04:39 <Rubidium> and 0K is no movement except quantum mechanics
18:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> of course you don't get used to celsius temperatures if you don't use them
18:05:03 <frosch> Rubidium: yeah, that summarised the discussion :)
18:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: might want to add 21°C = room temperature
18:05:55 <Supercheese> and then there's the Rankine scale
18:06:03 <Supercheese> which is just ridiculous
18:06:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that's quite subjective; 18°C is enough ;)
18:06:21 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: my room disagrees :P
18:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i prefer it a bit warmer
18:06:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: head off to Japan
18:07:18 <Rubidium> a cozy 27°C in the train and some offices
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18:07:29 <Rubidium> in the 'midst' of winter
18:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i can have 42°C in the train right here :p
18:08:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but for that you get a special discount ;)
18:10:20 <Supercheese> I guess the best solution was just to shove the train over a bit
18:14:21 <Rubidium> yup, but probably only in Japan
18:14:48 <Rubidium> here they would've shut down the station and let the fire department handle it
18:14:58 <Rubidium> I reckon the same in the US
18:15:13 <Rubidium> in India and China they probably don't even bother
18:21:42 <frosch> the most annoying mysql and psql difference are the backquotes
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18:59:46 <andythenorth> so conditional nml around property blocks (action 6?)
19:00:22 * andythenorth -> newgrf wiki :P
19:00:31 <andythenorth> also.... (1) am I correct that OpenTTD disables vehicle if not refittable any cargo?
19:00:56 <andythenorth> (2) could OpenTTD handle a cascading list of default cargos instead of me doing it in newgrf (but let the newgrf specify list)?
19:00:58 <frosch> well, if they are supposed to carry cargo
19:01:27 <frosch> (2) it picks cargos in order of your ctt
19:02:10 <andythenorth> not sure I'll be able to structure that in an order that works for all vehicles
19:04:06 <frosch> well, those vehicle which refit to the same will also have the same default then
19:04:21 <frosch> unless you set a speciific default which is also available
19:05:19 <andythenorth> ordering a single list for multiple cases is more than my brain can handle
19:05:22 <andythenorth> at least, in this heat
19:06:42 <frosch> just put your favorites in front
19:07:08 <V453000> you cant put things in front of your brain
19:07:23 <andythenorth> but sometimes they fall into the back again
19:07:26 <andythenorth> or the underneath
19:07:47 <andythenorth> so my cargo table is made from a dict :P
19:07:53 <andythenorth> that might be very unwise actually
19:08:08 <andythenorth> means my cargo table could be non-deterministic for a given compile
19:08:11 <andythenorth> which breaks saves
19:08:32 <andythenorth> never thought of
19:08:52 <V453000> when reading non-deterministic, my brain wants to commit suicide
19:09:11 <frosch> andythenorth: it does not break saves
19:09:20 <frosch> it only affects newly purchases vehicles
19:09:52 <frosch> anyway, does anyone bother about the default cargo of refittable vehicles?
19:10:14 <frosch> why some cargo more likely to be the one you need?
19:10:41 <andythenorth> (1) some are silly choices, as they are imho less used
19:10:50 <frosch> V453000: non-deterministic turing machines are quite useful
19:10:58 <andythenorth> (2) I *think* I'm going to have broken capacity - HEQS certainly does
19:11:15 <frosch> ah, true, if you use the old capacity mechanics
19:11:18 <andythenorth> by controlling the default cargos, I can also fix capacity at same time
19:11:31 <andythenorth> tbh, I have read the refitting page so many times, and I have no idea still :)
19:11:35 <frosch> i guess that was also the reason it was changed in v8 :p
19:11:38 <andythenorth> also nml hides it all from me
19:12:00 <frosch> afaik nml does it still wrong (tm)
19:12:17 <andythenorth> for the amount of work involved, I might as well do it right myself
19:12:23 <frosch> it tries to hide cb36 and cb15, which can only fail
19:12:26 <andythenorth> it's not much code, just a bit of conceptual overhead
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19:12:59 <andythenorth> instead of default_cargo = COAL, I have default_cargos = [COAL, IORE, CORE] etc
19:13:08 <andythenorth> and iterate generating property block each time
19:13:18 <frosch> so, well, put all normal cargos at the front of your ctt
19:13:23 <frosch> and all the fancy ones at the end
19:13:31 <andythenorth> yup, considering that too
19:13:40 <andythenorth> I am 80% done on the first option :P
19:13:43 <andythenorth> but hey, I could revert
19:14:59 <andythenorth> I have to fix the CTT anyway
19:15:08 <andythenorth> I'll use a nasty two-tuple thing :P
19:15:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: there's some python structure like a dict, but made of two tuples in a list?
19:15:35 <andythenorth> or did I invent that?
19:18:05 <V453000> the almighty restart button fixed my Esc key
19:19:39 <frosch> you canceled the keyboard software?
19:20:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's a PHP-esque thing [(key, value), (key, value)]
19:20:14 <andythenorth> used in some cases where a dict would usually be wanted, but needs a predictable order
19:20:58 <Alberth> oh, there are some ordered dicts
19:21:43 <Alberth> don't know when they got introduced exactly, but otherwise python-only version float around for earlier versions
19:21:48 <andythenorth> I think I was talking about named tuple
19:22:09 <andythenorth> herp, so frosch I am baffled by what FISH is actually doing with default cargos
19:22:31 <andythenorth> no I'm not, I'm just wrong, sorry :P
19:23:08 <Alberth> the OrderedDict link has link to a 2.4+ version at the bottom, if your Python is < 2.7
19:24:30 <V453000> frosch: this piece of wtf has no software
19:25:53 <frosch> pc keyboards always had microprocessers
19:26:14 <frosch> i do not recall any system where the matrixconnectors (30 pins) were weird into the computer
19:27:06 <frosch> only floppy drives and crt monitors did such weird things
19:27:57 <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: {}.items() returns a list of tuples
19:28:06 <frosch> yeah, classic joystricks are the worst piece of hardware there was
19:28:08 <Xaroth|Work> dict() accepts such a list to turn it into a dict
19:28:12 <andythenorth> in a predictable order from a regular dict?
19:28:27 <andythenorth> I need ordered dict
19:28:34 <Xaroth|Work> then ordereddict is what you need
19:28:46 <Xaroth|Work> does it need to be ordered, or sorted?
19:29:13 <Xaroth|Work> (as in, does a,c,b need to come out as a,b,c or a,c,b
19:29:30 <Xaroth|Work> latter requires ordereddict
19:29:41 <Xaroth|Work> first is sorted({}.items())
19:29:58 <andythenorth> dict is declared only once
19:30:04 <andythenorth> and won't be amended by any code
19:30:29 <andythenorth> but I need order of keys and values to be returned consistently for all compiles on all architectures
19:30:47 <Alberth> build the dict from the list?
19:31:02 <Xaroth|Work> tbh, I then usually go for sorted approach
19:31:26 <Xaroth|Work> means data returned is also somewhat intuitive
19:31:40 <Alberth> sorted is also a form of ordered :p
19:31:48 <andythenorth> I could just use a list of 2-tuples, but then I don't learn how ordered dict works ;)
19:32:12 <Xaroth|Work> ordered dict is a normal dict, except when looping over the keys you get them in the order you entered them into the dict
19:32:14 <andythenorth> hmm, I have python 2.6.8
19:32:54 <Xaroth|Work> which has it's obvious pitfalls
19:34:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what python version is devzone using to build newgrfs?
19:39:34 <andythenorth> copy it to my own module?
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19:51:00 <andythenorth> tropic + salt lakes :P
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20:52:06 <notbigfoot> I have two more issues with OpenTTD now...
20:52:56 <notbigfoot> Firstly I'm trying to remotely change the map size of a server. I have rcon access. I assume that the command 'rcon <password> setting game_creation.map_x 9' would take care of it for the one dimension at least, but no matter what arguments I give to the 'setting' command, it just echos the usage instructions back
20:53:43 <notbigfoot> The second issue is that after I press alt+enter to get to full screen, the keyboard no longer works for entering actual text (such as server passwords upon connecting), but ingame hotkeys still work. Running on Linux.
20:58:10 <krinn> so must be <set game_creation.map...> but i never use them
20:58:37 <notbigfoot> 'set' seems to just be a shorthand... It echoes the exact same usage instructions back as when I type 'setting'
20:59:46 <krinn> set <setting_name> [<newvalue>]
21:00:06 <krinn> If <newvalue> is ommitted
21:00:06 <krinn> the current value is printed.
21:00:22 <notbigfoot> Yeah, that's what it tells me when I try both with and without a value :P
21:02:02 <krinn> wait answer from someone who knows
21:02:55 <michi_cc> notbigfoot: The wiki page says it is rcon <password> "<command>", i.e. note the "'s.
21:04:24 <notbigfoot> Tadaa, that seemed to work. Thanks.
21:08:43 <notbigfoot> Any idea for the second issue?
21:09:20 <frosch> keyboard in linux fullscreen was fixed
21:09:24 <krinn> sadly not, if hotkeys works, your keyboard handler is working
21:11:18 <frosch> but, well, if you play multiplayer, i guess you have to live with it for now
21:11:27 <frosch> just maximize window instead of fullscreen :)
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21:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone ever test how the CETS turning magic looks after a crash?
21:42:20 <krinn> i don't even know what CETS is :)
21:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if you knew, you'd go NUTS! :p
21:43:45 <krinn> yeah we love u too NGC3982
21:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> OH NO, HE FOUND OUT!!
21:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: be aware that 90% of the vehicles will be green boxes
21:45:37 <krinn> lmao and look redbox on crash ?
21:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the crash palette is automatic
21:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so it will be grey boxes :p
21:46:29 <NGC3982> I wonder how many dedicated servers my poor P4 can withstand.
21:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: as long as the server is the slowest of the players, everything should be fine :)
21:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: also be aware that 90% of the vehicles means around 900 different vehicles :p
21:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> code generators are bad :p
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21:50:19 <krinn> and how a user is suppose to pickup a vehicle with a 1000 choices ?
21:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there are filters before game start (parameters)
21:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, might be an evil test for your AI :p
21:52:04 <krinn> it have a generic code for that, so it will handle it pretty nice :)
21:52:13 <krinn> (i do that as i was getting mad with newGRF)
21:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: well, the vehicles are longer than default vehicles :p
21:53:01 <krinn> lol it handle length too, just it doesn't look sweet for the twohead trains
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21:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but please, do run a test
21:53:53 <krinn> the newgrf is in bananas?
21:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: if you want something with real graphics, try the prussian trains from ~1880-1920
21:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: not released yet
21:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: you can find the download link from the page above
21:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds right
21:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> no, sources would have "-src" in it
21:56:04 <krinn> put that in ~/.openttd/newgrf ?
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21:57:51 <krinn> must set start date 1920 ?
21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> can do 1870 for some parameter settings
21:58:47 <krinn> wait a sec, the AI isn't in a "can run state" now :)
21:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what "hg revert" is for :p
22:00:17 <Aristide> Its possible to get EAP SIM login for Computer ?
22:00:29 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, what the! sure not !
22:03:57 <krinn> in a sec i will tell you the picked engine
22:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the general design of the set is that for each company/region (selcted by parameter) you get a set of (heavy freight, light freight, branch line passenger, main line passenger, long-distance passenger) engines, about every 10 years
22:07:15 <krinn> AI choose S 7(K.P.St.E)
22:09:03 <krinn> but can't tell you wagons, crash there (because of my changes i'm doing to avoid too long to save crash)
22:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 1920? default parameters?
22:10:25 <krinn> add newgrf, set date, run
22:10:58 <krinn> oh i can even tell you wagon
22:11:35 <krinn> it refit it for coal : German Wagon Asso.. series A10
22:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> S7 doesn't sound right, it's not even available (anymore) in my test game
22:13:54 <krinn> well, AI cannot pickup something it cannot create
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22:14:14 <krinn> wait a sec, running console you'll get copy/paste of log
22:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what data is your decision based on?
22:14:42 <krinn> depend on money i have in hands
22:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> price? power? tractive effort?
22:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, things with "S" in them usually are a bad idea for freight, as "S" means "Schnellzug" (express passenger) :)
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22:16:29 <krinn> :) AI don't care about it i have a setting for that
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22:19:13 <planetmaker> you still got my address?
22:20:16 <fjb_mobile> Don't think so. I guess I wold find the street.
22:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i don't understand that thing about flags
22:21:34 <krinn> It's how i try to explain it, as i don't know the newGRF properties that define that
22:21:47 <planetmaker> do you please bring insulation matrace and sleeping bag (if you stay over night as I assume)?
22:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: anyway, my set doesn't enforce any "X cannot attach to Y" rules
22:22:37 <krinn> New #33 Train 0(Open wagon (German Wagon Association series A10)) created with Open wagon (German Wagon Association series A10)
22:22:48 <krinn> and it's 1920 for the date
22:23:09 <krinn> New #31 Train 1(S 7 (K.P.St.E.)) created with S 7 (K.P.St.E.)
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22:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: do you have engines never expire on?
22:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that explains it...
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22:24:54 <krinn> oh, that one should have been taken away already?
22:25:29 <krinn> need restart if i disable it ?
22:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> engines are only available until a new design of the same transportation category becomes available
22:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you should probably start a new game after disabling it
22:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or type "resetengines"
22:26:32 <krinn> i disable it and restart
22:27:17 <krinn> Wagon Open wagon (German Wagon Association series A10) can be use with P 3/5 N (K.Bay.Sts.B., 38⁰)
22:27:23 <krinn> with engine expiration on
22:27:46 <krinn> i block the AI to only do industry, it's again coal transport
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22:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> for a cargo train, you'd usually want an engine with "G" in it. they are usually low speed (doesn't matter since the wagon speed limit is low), but have high power and TE
22:29:37 <krinn> :) i don't have wagon speed limit
22:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then 90% of the engines won't make any sense :)
22:30:54 <krinn> as soon as engineX is state as good from XX engines choice, you can say all other engine won't get used
22:32:01 <krinn> it evolve because of running cost, breakdown, but it still steady choice (except if new engine come out)
22:32:55 <Aristide> I like opening theme of Doctor Who <
22:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if you don't have wagon speed limits, choosing a low-speed engine for freight is a silly idea
22:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Aristide: which era?
22:33:27 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: You don't know Doctor Who ? :o
22:33:37 <krinn> i didn't think about wagon speed limit, but i implement freight as adding an extra engine
22:33:53 <krinn> i will alter the decision maker when wagon speed limit is on
22:34:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Aristide: but the opening theme varies throughout the 50 years it is on air
22:34:34 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: For S4
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22:37:06 <krinn> lol to stay openttd : i suppose last train to transcentral is the top known KLF song
22:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i guess without speed limits, P 3/5 isn't that bad of a choice. the S 3/6 would be a bit faster and significantly stronger, though
22:38:19 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, but it's a choice restrict by poor money, the S 3/6 should be a worst choice because of running cost or price
22:38:26 <krinn> want me retry with AI full of money ?
22:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my database shows i have 4 tracks of KLF, but none of the titles mean anything to me...
22:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, running costs might be a little steep
22:40:57 <krinn> Wagon Wood car (German Wagon Association series A5) can be use with P 3/5 H (bay., 38⁴) (with lot of money to carry wood)
22:42:12 <Aristide> You can use tardis in Minecraft x)
22:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: not really my type of music
22:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> this "3AM Eternal" sounds familiar, but the other ones not...
22:45:46 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, that's oldies, i have a big limit for music taste, with a strong point set to rap, omg, i hate rap so much
22:46:31 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, but i suppose it came from "french (c)rap)
22:46:49 <Aristide> I dont know if time traveling its possible in Minecraft :')
22:47:03 <Aristide> You create a house, and back to paste, and you see yourself building house :')
22:47:12 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i don't like rap, but making it in french raise that dislike to hate :P
22:48:21 <Aristide> Ahaha its possible x)
22:51:38 <Zuu> krinn: A game setting that is not uncommon that players tune is the wagon weight multiplier. Some set it to eg. 5 or even higher so that freight trains need stronger/more engines. Also note that the weight multiplier applies only to the loaded weight.
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22:53:15 <Zuu> Since introduction of new slope handling for RVs and the slope factor there, in theory AIs need to take slope grade into account for RVs. However, as RVs are self-contained units, one can suppose that most players will not set slope settings for RVs that render some vehicles useless.
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22:53:33 <krinn> Zuu : i handle this one, but my handling is limited to add another engine (that will not be made if train is dualhead soon because of Eddi|zuHause addition)
22:54:37 <Zuu> With a steep slope and/or high weight multiplier you can get stale trains in slopes also with dual heads. Especially in the early years with weaker engines.
22:55:34 <Zuu> What is problematic is if trains need to stop on a signal just below a long slope. Then they will crawl up slow (as in 1-5 km/h) all way to the top of the slope.
22:56:46 <krinn> i might need to fine tune that, but later, when the AI can handle trains a bit better
22:57:16 <Zuu> Ah, so you will use more than two engines if "freight_trains" is high.
22:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> btw: the doctor who theme was one of the first synthesised pieces of music in the world. that was before synthesizers were even invented
22:58:43 <Zuu> krinn: In addition to "freight_trains" which I think is the weight multiplier setting, there is also a slope steepness setting which affects trains (at least with realistic acceleration)
22:58:50 <krinn> Zuu, on easy game, the poor AI won't handle freight and suffer pain
22:59:05 <Zuu> Last, on original acceleration model, trains are more sensitive to slopes than default realistic acceleration settings.
22:59:58 <krinn> well, as you see, IsFreight will tell a number of wagon, if a train need more than that number, i add another train engine to the vehicle
23:00:27 <krinn> that might not be really the best thing to do, but it works not that bad
23:00:42 <Zuu> I see that. What I say is that that method probably need to take more into account than just "freight_trains" as there is at least three settings that come into my mind that will affect this.
23:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: this ominous "puller" flag puzzles me. what function are you checking there?
23:01:14 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, 1s i pickit up and show u
23:01:52 <Zuu> krinn: that said, what you do is still a good step forward. As long as you keep the slope steepness setting at the default value and use realistic accelleration your method probably works well.
23:02:21 <krinn> cEngine::CanPullCargo is where i handle that flag
23:03:46 <krinn> Zuu: i might change it a bit to handle Eddi|zuHause suggest earlier (the wagon speed limit)
23:04:17 <krinn> Zuu, so i will pickup another heuristic to choose engine because of wagon speed and the slope steepness might get than affect too
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23:07:24 <krinn> Zuu, lost myself because the setting is true to get anything and false to restrict to newGRF choice
23:07:25 <Zuu> krinn: If you come up with something useful, I think it would be nice to have on bananas an engine/wagon/train selector/builder library. It's a quite complex task where of course different AIs could have different preferences, but it is also a lot of work to handle all settings, NewGRFs etc.
23:08:19 <krinn> well, except some special things in it for my AI, that cEngine class is working alone by overriding AIEngine
23:08:43 <krinn> so any AIEngine call, the cEngine class get it, and record itself what it can about engine: lenght, price...
23:09:50 <krinn> i suppose i could make it more generic by adding stuff i need elsewhere and publish that as a lib yes
23:11:38 <Zuu> If I ever is going to add train support to an AI, I would like to use building blocks created by others, as the whole task is quite large.
23:12:27 <krinn> that's really an hard task yes, didn't think about it when i start adding trains, so many parameters to think about!
23:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: ah, i found the property
23:12:31 <Zuu> I'm sure it is fun though and will be rewarding as you can probably make quite some good profit by it and I'm sure users will like the AI more if it has train support.
23:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, my set doesn't use that flag (yet)
23:13:21 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, can you tell me the real name so users reading the readme (lol like if that exist) won't kick me for not naming it like it should
23:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> nml calls it "ai_special_flag", nfo "property 08"
23:13:54 <krinn> dbg: [script] [1] [I] cCarrier-> New #33 Train 0(Open wagon (narrow gauge)) created with Open wagon (narrow gauge)
23:13:54 <krinn> dbg: [script] [1] [I] Unknown-> Grabbing vehicle properties for Open wagon (narrow gauge)
23:13:54 <krinn> dbg: [script] [1] [I] Unknown-> Setting Open wagon (narrow gauge) refit costs to 199 when handling WOOD
23:14:04 <krinn> Unknown -> is cEngine at work
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23:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: is that from my set?
23:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: where do you get the narrow gauge tracks from?
23:15:59 <krinn> i have only ects r760 loaded
23:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, you should not get narrow gauge vehicles then
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23:17:03 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i don't get what you mean by that
23:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: narrow gauge vehicles should only appear if you load a track set that provides narrow gauge rails
23:18:40 <krinn> then something is wrong as it could be create with a "classic" depot
23:19:21 <Zuu> krinn: Creating a more powerfull version of an API class sounds like an option. However, it should probably not be named as the API class in a library. At lesat for SuperLib, I've dropped the AI/GS prefix for the library classes which are also namespaced into SuperLib.<SubClass> unless you create a global reference to it after the import statement.
23:19:43 <krinn> the AI browse wagons, create one, look at its properties, then try grabbing another wagon: if the newerwagon == previous one, AI then use that, else AI delete the wagon, create new one and continue until previous==current
23:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, there's something wrong there if the default track set is loaded
23:20:37 <Zuu> So in your AI, when importing the library you can override the defalut API with the extended one, but it shouldn't happen automatically when the library is imported.
23:20:48 <NGC3982> The server suddenly doesn't understand that a specific port is open.
23:20:59 <krinn> because when create, properties are update and when update the new wagon choice picker may do a different choice base on new properties it discover
23:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: that is probably oberhümer's fault, but maybe it's actually me :p
23:21:37 <krinn> Zuu, i disable this, and move to a more saner form
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23:22:43 <krinn> Zuu, i extend AIEngine so any properties not own by cEngine are read from AIEngine, and in the AI i have change any AIEngine ref to cEngine ref, this gave handling to cEngine that callback AIEngine for unkown property (that's squirrel feature)
23:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: that's why outside tests are useful... my personal test environment uses nutracks, and then things are different
23:23:38 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i think if the wagon can be created at that depot, it will run on that rails too
23:23:41 <Zuu> Thus, a library should then offer cEngine and leave it up to the AI importing it to optionally override the default AIEngine reference.
23:24:10 <NGC3982> This was mildly irritating.
23:24:41 <krinn> Zuu, and even with the lib, the AI need to really use the tools, and not except the lib do all work for it (even many are automated already)
23:25:13 <krinn> like picking the engine, if the AI doesn't do looping like i do
23:25:29 <krinn> the cEngine will answer false results for never created engine
23:26:06 <krinn> and the cEngine is made like that it hint the AI on pickup a never created engine first
23:26:39 <krinn> this.cargo_capacity.AddItem(crg,255);
23:26:40 <krinn> / 255 so it will appears to be a better carrier vs an already test engine
23:27:01 <Zuu> So cEngine suggest that the AI try out many different engines so that they get tested and the idea is to report back properties about the engine?
23:27:13 <krinn> if you query capacity for wood on a never built wagon that need to be refit to handle wood, the cEngine will tell you it have a 255 capacity for wood :)
23:27:54 <NGC3982> I have literaly no idea why it suddenly cannot advertise to the master server.
23:27:57 <krinn> once the AI create the wagon, the cEngine test refit on it, record cost and capacity and will return real result on next query
23:28:12 <NGC3982> And i hate having no idea on what to search after.
23:28:13 <Zuu> Ah, so for cEngine to work, you need to create a depot and quickly build all combinations that your are interesetd in evaluating?
23:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: usually it's one of 3 cases: you did something wrong, the other side did something wrong, or someone in the middle did something wrong
23:28:48 <krinn> Zuu, for best performance yes, but you can just not do that and keep the suggest engine (that won't be optimal at first answer)
23:28:56 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Of course.
23:29:04 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: My problem is, i have no idea why it shouldn't work.
23:29:20 <krinn> Zuu, the more you create the more the cEngine answer are fine
23:29:34 <Zuu> krinn: Did you know that NUTS monorail have wagons which have different properties depending on the engine it is attached to. (and the engine max speed depends on # of wagons)
23:29:42 <krinn> Zuu, you can already see it in previous dictatorai with truck and aircraft
23:29:43 <NGC3982> My normal setup for a new server is: Create a savegame, alter the server side openttd.cfg with a new port, and a new server name. I open the port in my router and start the savegame server-side.
23:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're building an airport in a capital, then everyone does something wrong, and then employs even more people so the blame can be passed around to the next guy
23:30:02 <NGC3982> It has worked out so far, and all the first seven servers are still running.
23:30:41 <NGC3982> For some damn reason.
23:31:03 <krinn> Zuu, no, i have made a generic handling that shoudl cover 99% case, even weird one, but there's still that 1% of totally weird crazy case like the one you speak of
23:31:14 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I hate airports.
23:31:35 <Zuu> krinn: yeah, I don't expect an AI to fully support NUTS monorail.
23:32:26 <Zuu> Hopefully the AI earn enough money from elsewhere that a slightly worse monorail than intended will not cause too much trouble.
23:32:39 <krinn> Zuu run dictatorai with plenty newgrf for road, force AI to use industry as it's the best testcase : once AI build a depot for truck : pause, open the depot you'll see creation/deletion of vehicle while cEngine tests are made
23:33:29 <NGC3982> For some reason, i can now advertise and see the server, but i cannot join it.
23:33:44 <NGC3982> It's henjoh.se:10007 (NGC's Scania Buckaroo).
23:33:45 <Zuu> krinn: sounds clever and useful
23:33:51 <NGC3982> The dedicated server is telling me -nothing-.
23:34:36 <krinn> Zuu: it do the same with all my engine, that's why i create the class
23:35:24 <NGC3982> It's definately a router issue.
23:36:13 <krinn> Zuu: push the debug level to full and you will see it in the log
continue to next day ⏵
