IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-05-07
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03:24:56 <Supercheese> Hmm, I'm contemplating making a Fairey Rotodyne for OTTD
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03:25:36 <Supercheese> looks like a cool aircraft to me :)
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05:01:06 <Supercheese> I've got a model in sketchup, I'll make renders in a few days
05:01:16 <Supercheese> got/downloaded/acquired
05:04:18 <Supercheese> 40,200 kg payload
05:06:40 <Supercheese> or 44,205 kg, even
05:06:55 <Supercheese> two different numbers, hmm
05:07:27 <Supercheese> wikipedia seems to disagree with itself
05:12:22 <Rubidium> seems like two different conversions from lb to kg
05:12:35 <Rubidium> as the number in lb is the same for both
05:12:40 <Supercheese> The FAI apparently doesn't recognize that record though
05:12:44 <Supercheese> only the ≈ 30,000 kg one
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07:26:53 <Nothing4You> which year should i start in if i want to use the earliest possible year that allows me to build some transport?
07:30:39 <planetmaker> choice of NewGRFs
07:30:58 <planetmaker> with the right choice you likely can start successfully mid 19ths century
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07:31:11 <Supercheese> Or horse-drawn stuff from the 1600s
07:31:23 <Supercheese> for those people who like sllooooooow transport :P
07:31:29 <Nothing4You> horses? that sounds interesting
07:31:35 <planetmaker> yes... but I found the horse carriages insufficient to keep up with my transport needs
07:31:37 <Supercheese> also sailing ships
07:31:42 <Supercheese> which carry lots more
07:32:53 <Nothing4You> btw i found some typo in the wiki
07:33:04 <planetmaker> it's a wiki. Please correct it
07:33:33 <Supercheese> the wiki could use a great deal of correcting
07:33:42 <Nothing4You> i don't know which one is the correct one, i would have to try
07:35:25 <planetmaker> @calc 28855 / 365 + 1920
07:35:25 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 1999.05479452
07:36:03 <planetmaker> @calc 36891 / 365 + 1920
07:36:03 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2021.07123288
07:36:22 <planetmaker> @calc 36891 / 365.25 + 1920
07:36:22 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2021.00205339
07:36:30 <planetmaker> looks like 2021 :-P
07:36:38 <Supercheese> split the difference ;)
07:36:51 <Supercheese> although the random-added stuff means 2022 is not unlikely
07:37:05 <planetmaker> yup. but 2020 is impossible ;-)
07:37:21 <Nothing4You> so should i write 2021 or 2022 then?
07:38:07 <planetmaker> the 0 ... 2 years random change for introduction is not by design of the vehicle but by design of the game
07:38:19 <Nothing4You> also, where did you get that values for calculation from?
07:40:22 <planetmaker> the default vehicles' properties are all defined there. Stupid as that is from a design POV
07:41:52 <Nothing4You> the base_intro, right?
07:42:05 <planetmaker> yes. In days since 1.1.1920
07:42:24 <Nothing4You> @calc 36891 / 365.25 + 1920
07:42:24 <DorpsGek> Nothing4You: 2021.00205339
07:42:38 <Nothing4You> so i'll adjust both to 2021
07:46:53 <Nothing4You> @calc 39447 / 365.25 + 1920
07:47:04 <Nothing4You> @calc 42004 / 365.25 + 1920
07:47:04 <DorpsGek> Nothing4You: 2035.00068446
07:47:17 <Nothing4You> @calc 42735 / 365.25 + 1920
07:47:17 <DorpsGek> Nothing4You: 2037.00205339
07:47:27 <Nothing4You> Lev4 is also wrong then
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11:40:20 <V453000> hm, where can I find on the tt-wiki how to make transparent/semitransparent sprites?
11:42:27 <peter1138> it's mentioned in the sprite layout stuff
11:54:38 <V453000> is there any example in nml?
11:54:46 <V453000> cant imagine how the usage of this looks like
11:55:12 <frosch123> with 32bpp you can also do alpha channel
11:55:13 <V453000> I just tried writing down spriteset_name * 257 00 0x322
11:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a recolour{} block
11:57:01 <V453000> and the recolour block is put in item like graphics block?
11:57:20 <V453000> or is it sprite_name { recolour{} }
11:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i used recolouring once, but i forgot
11:58:24 <frosch123> anyway, you cannot use any of this stuff for vehicles :p
11:58:39 <peter1138> though with nfo of course
11:58:45 <peter1138> newstatsw i mean :S
11:58:46 <V453000> what? :d well I wanted to use it for rails now
11:58:56 <peter1138> you can't do that with rails
11:59:09 <frosch123> with vehicles you can only do normal recolouring, no glass-stuff
11:59:23 <peter1138> you can do 32bpp alpha
11:59:23 <frosch123> unless you use 32bpp, then you have a alpha channel
11:59:26 <frosch123> but that's not quite the same
12:00:37 <V453000> meh it was proobably a bad idea anyway :)
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12:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now get a proper artist on it :p
12:17:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, all river tiles there, new and old were created on my machine ;-)
12:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always wondered: why isn't it possible to set 90° turns for ships and trains separately?
12:17:47 <planetmaker> but I can't do it in 1 hour :-P
12:18:13 <planetmaker> and I totally would not mind someone stepping up
12:18:43 <V453000> Fun :D ordering printing here locally is 300% more expensive than ordering it from germany, including transportation
12:21:58 <V453000> also holy shit at diagonal rivers :D
12:23:31 <planetmaker> coding that can be lengthy :-)
12:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just generate it :p
12:24:20 <planetmaker> then the drawing will be lengthy :-P
12:25:09 <planetmaker> drawing will be the most lengthy thing there anyway
12:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you only have 2^8 cases :)
12:26:49 <planetmaker> that many is not needed really
12:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (times random states)
12:27:01 <planetmaker> But then multiply that with terrain types as well
12:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "Windows 8 is the biggest economical failure since 'New Coke'"
12:30:31 <peter1138> everyone i know who's tried it loves it
12:31:41 <__ln___> peter1138: everyone in an empty set
12:32:09 <stuf> dunno, win8 has been just fine for me
12:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, on the one windows 8 i helped set up, i immediately installed the classic shell
12:35:21 <stuf> I don't really mind the start screen, since the functionality there I usually use is pretty much the same as in win7
12:35:55 <stuf> besides, win8 program indexing seems to be working better, since there isn't that pesky wait time as in win7 when opening up the start menu and searching for something
12:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually used win8
12:37:18 <planetmaker> windows7 is quite ok. But still... it's windows. It misses xterm :-P
12:37:52 <stuf> but as long as the GUI isn't as much of an atrocity as gimp's (or any piece of adobe software), i'm fine with it
12:38:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25230 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-05-07 12:38:43 UTC)
12:38:50 <DorpsGek> -Feature: [NewGRF] Expose sprite base of foundation and shore sprites via Action D Game Variables.
12:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there you have the idea you searched for :p
12:44:18 <frosch123> it's an ancient idea
12:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of ideas are ancient
12:49:45 <Nothing4You> termite is much better than xterm
12:49:56 <Nothing4You> i only have xterm installed for one reason
12:50:04 <Nothing4You> monodevelop doesn't work without it
12:50:33 <planetmaker> that judgement sounds poor
12:52:04 <frosch123> well, isn't it more important what shell you run inside the terminal? :p
12:54:36 <frosch123> looks more like kermit for windows
12:54:45 <peter1138> i don't think that's what Nothing4You means though
12:55:14 <frosch123> "kermit" is an awesome software name btw. more people should use such names :)
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13:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> is it green and on pushing a button turns red? :p
13:01:35 <frosch123> my brother used that around 1990 trying to set up a "lan" over a distance of 800 meters
13:01:48 <frosch123> across some grass plain to the house of a friend
13:01:58 <frosch123> using some rs232 derivate with heigher voltage levels
13:02:08 <NGC3982> On what kind of cable?
13:02:18 <frosch123> but it did not succeed with anything faster than 600 boud, so it failed for gaming
13:02:47 <frosch123> cannot remember, but if it was that long it cannot be something specially suited
13:03:12 <NGC3982> Doesn't the rs232 standard say that capacitance is too high after 50 feet or something?
13:03:13 <frosch123> likely some random wire with low profile
13:03:30 <frosch123> stuff you use in electric model train networks to wire the signals and such :p
13:03:52 <frosch123> but something similar with higher volatage
13:04:26 <frosch123> maybe it was even an early telephone modem or similiar
13:04:34 <frosch123> something they threw out of the university at that time :)
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13:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't you rather use BNC cables over such distance? (assuming this was before twisted pair came around)
13:08:25 <frosch123> sure, if you have a 800m bnc cable around
13:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> although that may also become troublesome beyond 300m-ish
13:09:28 <frosch123> yeah, that it even worked at all :)
13:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember my school had trouble from one end of the building to the other
13:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> now, one could look up the size of the standardized east german school building...
13:11:55 <frosch123> if it was built after 1950?
13:12:01 <__ln___> 800m bnc (isn't that a connector, so coaxial) cable costs a bit.
13:12:06 <heffer> hmm standard east german school? box shaped!
13:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the H-shaped standard building :)
13:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> construction around 1970-ish
13:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually the building was only half of the H)
13:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes
13:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the building doesn't exist anymore, though
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13:33:00 <__ln___> oh no, are they destroying valuable architecture?
13:49:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25231 trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp (2013-05-07 13:49:18 UTC)
13:49:25 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25227): Also update infrastructure counts. (adf88)
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14:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: they even get EU funding for it
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15:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "IT Crowd: Final episode will be produced"
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17:11:29 <planetmaker> V453000, you can see that when you highlight the tile with, say, the tunnel build tool or bulldozer or so. Then a coloured pixel remains there
17:14:29 <V453000> I took them from the landscape
17:14:41 <V453000> can you link me to the used land sprites to be sure?
17:15:06 <planetmaker> try opengfx nightly
17:15:37 <V453000> well sure, I can see what is wrong
17:15:51 <V453000> but if I took land sprites, it should behave the same way as sloped land
17:15:58 <V453000> so apparently the ones I used were wrong
17:16:43 <planetmaker> maybe previous ones have that issue already... dunno, didn't check :D
17:17:18 <V453000> but then landscape wouldh have such issue too
17:17:25 <V453000> where can I find the used landscape sprites?
17:18:32 <V453000> it is easy, all I need to do is to replace the landscape layer ... but I need the correct one to do that
17:20:24 <planetmaker> the rail tunnels have the same issue
17:22:05 <planetmaker> in ogfx-landscape repo:
17:22:24 <planetmaker> src/gfx/ogfx-terrain.png
17:22:43 <planetmaker> that should contain most ground sprites
17:22:56 <planetmaker> I won't bet my life on 'all' though :-)
17:24:50 <planetmaker> hm, do I dare make ogfx-landscape compatible with trunk only? :D
17:26:09 <V453000> hmm yeah ogfx-terrain is where I got them from
17:27:02 <V453000> ogfx-terrain is gridless there though, isnt it
17:30:02 <V453000> your screenshot has them with grid, is the problem appearing in both cases?
17:31:08 <planetmaker> If you took the tunnel sprites from opengfx somewhere you'll have that issue, I think
17:32:03 <planetmaker> you might want to compare the front (lower) slopes of the sprites of those with the normal sloped ground tile. Maybe there's a pixel difference somewhere?
17:32:18 <V453000> I just do not understand how can there be a shape mismatch if I just duplicated the sloped land sprites
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17:32:39 <V453000> I cloned them from the ground tiles, not tunnel sprites
17:32:52 <V453000> it is ground sprite + tunel layer + road layer
17:34:23 <planetmaker> Only the sprite without the road has this issue; the sprite which is drawn on the vehicles
17:34:31 <planetmaker> not the tunnel ground sprite
17:35:37 <V453000> their shape is exactly the same :s
17:35:53 <V453000> minus the "missing" part ofc
17:37:05 <V453000> ha, found 1 pixel actually
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17:40:49 <V453000> is the issue only 1 pixel though?
17:42:07 <frosch123> don't lick the sprites
17:42:26 <frosch123> they may lose pixels
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25232 /trunk/src/lang (german.txt lithuanian.txt) (2013-05-07 17:45:13 UTC)
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> german - 9 changes by Jogio
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
17:50:25 <V453000> sec it is uploading :)
17:54:36 <planetmaker> lol. I also found the grid issue ;-)
17:54:50 <planetmaker> simply referencing the gridded version of the file :-P
17:57:10 <planetmaker> NoCAB started to populate my test map :D
17:59:36 <planetmaker> hm, V453000 ... err no 8bpp palette ?
18:05:34 <V453000> guess you might want to delete the other six :P
18:05:59 <planetmaker> they have time stamps :-)
18:10:35 <planetmaker> looks very nice to me :-)
18:13:41 <planetmaker> V453000, the psd source does not change, it's just a different export?
18:30:06 <V453000> it changes by 8 pixels ... :)
18:30:18 <V453000> palette changes only on export
18:47:20 <V453000> result looks good to me :)
18:47:49 <V453000> no fat road parameter though :P
18:48:25 <planetmaker> so totally untrue :-P
18:48:37 <planetmaker> just brot is slow ;-)
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19:19:48 <George> when I copy the train why does it copies the age?
19:20:45 <George> the train has cargo_subtype_text CB, that returns several value first 10 days of life and fails later
19:21:02 <George> I have a train that was refited
19:21:28 <George> when I copy it I get the train not refited (like CB fails)
19:22:03 <Supercheese> which variable are you using? age_in_days?
19:22:15 <Supercheese> or not that at all?
19:22:30 <George> if I pause a game, build a new train, refit it and then copy the new train, the copy is refited
19:22:55 <George> but if i wait 11 days and copy it again, the new copy IS NOT refited
19:23:25 <Supercheese> does the subtype callback use any variables like age_in_days ?
19:23:28 <George> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, _4te10s_cargo_subtype_text,
19:23:29 <George> cargo_subtype + ((age_in_days >= 30) && (num_vehs_in_consist >= 3)) * 2
19:23:29 <George> 0: string(STR_REFIT_HEAD);
19:23:29 <George> 1: string(STR_REFIT_BUSTER);
19:23:29 <George> return CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT;
19:23:48 <Supercheese> I recall the age_in_days variable being very weird when I tried to use it
19:24:01 <__ln___> how did i end up in the pastebin?
19:25:54 <Supercheese> I'm not sure, someone more qualified than I seems necessary
19:26:19 <Supercheese> could check the source though
19:27:44 <planetmaker> that's a very weired condition for the cargo subtype text :-)
19:28:27 <Supercheese> irrespective of weirdness, I suspect there's something odd with the age variable in OTTD
19:28:31 <Supercheese> OTTD + NML anyway
19:29:26 <frosch123> when cloning or autoreplacing or autorefitting or whatever, ottd picks the subtype with the same text
19:29:32 <planetmaker> I don't know the callbacks... ^
19:29:33 <frosch123> if you change the text over time you totally break it
19:29:43 <frosch123> can't help you with that
19:29:52 <frosch123> subtype is not meant to change over time
19:30:23 <frosch123> subtypes are not a general display random data thingie
19:30:27 <Supercheese> It still begs the question why the 10 days bit, when the code only is supposed to change at 30 days
19:31:02 <George> a question wwas asked while the code was changed
19:31:25 <George> just copied the undone code
19:31:57 <George> because the code with 10 days and without consist length chek did not work
19:32:36 <Supercheese> I guess the conclusion is that cargo subtype should only change when refitting, and not due to other factors, eh
19:33:16 <George> frosch123: And how can code that the cargo subtype text would be uncanged inside the train?
19:33:40 <George> so onle a single loco can change the subtype text
19:33:52 <George> and then be placed in the consist&
19:35:37 <frosch123> maybe use the start stop check
19:35:43 <frosch123> or just leave it to the player
19:36:13 <frosch123> no idea, i don't understand the intention in the first place
19:36:32 <frosch123> what's the point of all these conditions? are you coding a railroad history quiz?
19:36:40 <George> A player buys a loco, refits it (to boosted variant) and attaches it
19:36:57 <frosch123> the player, who builds 100 valid trains, wins?
19:36:58 <George> it can be attached only in a special place of a train
19:37:51 <George> in case it would become refited inside consist the train would be brocken
19:37:58 <Supercheese> why the age in days check then?
19:38:04 <George> Yes, I build a historical train
19:38:29 <Supercheese> shouldn't the consist check work by itself?
19:38:38 <planetmaker> George, make the historical consist one articulated vehicle
19:38:44 <planetmaker> so one-click buy. Done
19:38:58 <planetmaker> and make the other trains work no-matter-what
19:39:08 <Supercheese> alternatively that, or another easier way
19:39:28 <Supercheese> easier than current, I think planetmaker's idea is easiest overall
19:40:21 <George> Sorry, but I'm not looking for a way not to code the feature :) I'm looking for a way to code it
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19:40:57 <George> From the historical point of view in the later years these trains were split and used as parts
19:40:57 <Supercheese> Still, I don't understand the age check
19:41:12 <George> so articulated vehicle is not a solution
19:41:37 <Supercheese> Well, you could also code it as a separate engine and disable its power/whatnot when it's not in a certain place in the consist
19:41:55 <Supercheese> that would also let you set independent intro/retire dates
19:42:01 <George> Yes, I can code it on a separate ID
19:42:26 <George> But I need exect days of build feature then
19:42:38 <frosch123> you can make the back part draw depending on the front part
19:42:46 <frosch123> the japanese trains do that
19:43:01 <frosch123> you refit the front to a specific series/colour
19:43:10 <frosch123> and the other vehicles in the chain take it from the front
19:43:23 <frosch123> that allows easy moving of vehicles around in the depot
19:43:29 <frosch123> without the need to refit every single vehicle
19:43:42 <George> This is the way it was coded before
19:44:14 <frosch123> anyway, japanese trains are currently somewhat broken in trunk, so test it with 1.3 :)
19:44:15 <George> because the train part magicaly transforms when being attached
19:44:30 <Supercheese> as opposed to magically transform when refit>
19:45:20 <George> that is why I'm asking about haw to prevent refit problem on train coping
19:46:34 <Supercheese> well, several suggestions have been fielded
19:47:22 <George> currently I saw only 2 - code on the other ID and not to code
19:47:55 <planetmaker> yes. draw vehicle depending on front vehicle
19:48:28 <George> It is an issue (bug) I'm trying to fix)
19:48:29 <planetmaker> honestly, Japanese trains is one of my favourite sets: Ease of use, nice choice of vehicles
19:49:00 <George> xUSSR set would not be easy to use :)))
19:49:01 <Supercheese> wouldn't removing the age check help?
19:49:12 <Supercheese> I still don't know why that's there
19:50:01 <George> Supercheese: No, it does not work either
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19:50:28 <George> just because of the resons frosch123 wrote above
19:51:20 <planetmaker> what's the point to allow refitting vehicles one-by-one but then disallowing to assemble trains from them?
19:51:41 <planetmaker> that's what I understood how this is going to be used...
19:51:59 <George> because it is checked with CB 1D and allows only sertan combinations of locos
19:52:22 <George> with refit inside consist it would become broken
19:52:32 <planetmaker> sorry, that reads like "the wall is green because I painted it green"
19:53:07 <George> historical set is historical
19:53:21 <George> Someone wrote the history already
19:53:33 <George> I can repat in code and not repeat
19:53:46 <George> there are no other solutions
19:53:54 <planetmaker> a historical set should only allow articulated vehicles, so that only the vehicles like they were built then, can be built
19:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> George: what frosch123 said is that it runs the text callback for both existing and new vehicle, it fails for the existing vehicle, so the new one can't take the existing refit
19:53:57 <planetmaker> no refit. no nothing
19:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> George: so the "solution" is to make the callback in a way that doesn't fail with the existing vehicle
19:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that's how i understand it)
19:55:45 <George> that means use other ID
19:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> or implement "vehicle views" that are set on purchase and can't be changed afterwards
19:57:32 <George> Eddi|zuHause: and how are they set on purchase?
19:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> view selection buttons like for stations/objects/...
19:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> MB had a mockup somewhere
19:58:39 <George> and where are they for trains?
19:58:47 <Supercheese> source code patch
19:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> they are not implemented yet
19:58:56 <Supercheese> not really a good suggestion for a newgrf author :S
19:59:18 <planetmaker> cb36 with property 25 might help there
20:02:39 <George> Eddi|zuHause: and how would I choose what to set to prop 25?
20:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what prop25 is
20:03:13 <Rubidium> some californian law to vote on?
20:03:15 <George> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, the question was to planetmaker
20:03:50 <planetmaker> I can't know what cases you need distinguish or so.
20:04:13 <planetmaker> but looking of where it can be queried it likely is useless anyway
20:04:20 <Supercheese> hah, ballot measures :P
20:04:51 <George> currently I try to choose by refit optin (they are named so the player knows what he selects)
20:05:20 <planetmaker> choose what by refit option?
20:06:18 <planetmaker> good. So once refit to that, it's fine. It has a cargo sub-type. No need to further check for it except in the can-be-attached callback?
20:08:27 <George> but if a player refits it
20:08:55 <George> we get a wrong locos order
20:09:09 <planetmaker> disallow refit in that case
20:09:12 <George> because CB 1D is not recalled on refit
20:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a refit callback
20:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> where you can check position in consist and current and future refit subtype
20:10:26 <George> yes and f I fail it in consist a copy of a train gets defaul value instead of refited value
20:10:33 <Supercheese> Oh yeah, I did that for fake subways
20:10:42 <Supercheese> check the difference between current and proposed subtype
20:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i still don't quite understand the problem you are trying to model
20:12:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you may couple together black engines. But once coupled together, you may not paint them red again (like they were before you painted them black)
20:13:07 <planetmaker> thus he wants to forbid the red paint bucket, if two black engines are coupled
20:13:22 <planetmaker> but wants to allow it, if the black engine is alone in the shed
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21:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> nights are overrated
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