IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-05-05
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00:17:15 <nicfer> I'm screwing it do bad...
00:17:23 <nicfer> now steel mills produce water
00:20:50 <nicfer> I'm making a newgrf that should use opengfx+ industries, but it doesn't seem to be aware that the latter is active and decides to use vanilla IDs instead
00:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> each industry grf is operating on its own copy of the original industries
00:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot modify the industries of another set
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07:52:30 <scshunt> is there somewhere with an exact specification of how signals work? I think I get the gist but want to know precisely the behaviours of each kind
07:52:50 <Alberth> tutorials not sufficient?
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07:54:04 <Alberth> but just start with one-way path signal for everything :)
07:54:39 <V453000> hi :) you cant imagine how harmful can PBS signals be to players, but I dont have time for that conversation now :P
07:55:42 <Alberth> not everybody builds the kind of track layouts that you make :)
07:56:55 <scshunt> Alberth: that page isn't fully detailed
07:56:57 <Alberth> but yeah, if you want to become a signals expert, listen to V453000
07:57:21 <Alberth> scshunt: perhaps you could explain what you are looking for?
07:57:22 <scshunt> for instance, if I have =E=B=X= where E is entry, B is block, and X is exit, does the entry key of the exit there?
07:57:23 <V453000> it doesnt matter what kind of tracks, logical thinking and intuitiveness matters
07:57:34 <scshunt> and how does PBS *actually work*
07:58:17 <peter1139> pbs is simple and effective. V453000 just likes making life hard for himself.
07:58:48 <Alberth> scshunt: I don't understand "does the entry key of the exit there"
07:59:31 <V453000> I know the signals so me making anything hard for me is irrelevant and senseless, I use PBS where it can be used effectively. But for learning a lot better approach is to start from block signals through presignals and pbs
07:59:33 <scshunt> Alberth: like, does the entry signal pay attention to the exit signal, or does it just act like a block signal because it has no exit signals
08:00:05 <scshunt> I'm a programmer and math mathjor, I can handle this if only I understand exactly what each signal type does
08:00:41 <Alberth> scshunt: PBS works by allocated routes through a block. When a train is about to enter a PBS block, it allocates a new path through the block, not used by any other train. When it succeeds, it passes the PBS signal
08:00:49 <peter1139> V453000, that's like teaching 5 year olds imaginary numbers and differential equations and other shit, and then only later teaching them about addition
08:01:19 <V453000> yep, signal A looking at signal B is totally mathematical equation
08:01:22 <Alberth> another train can also enter the same PBS block, as long as each can create a path through the block not used by any other train in the block
08:01:42 <scshunt> Alberth: Ok. Can trains allocate parts of a path that the allocating train has passed over?
08:02:20 <Alberth> yes, trains release every track tile they have passed
08:02:40 <scshunt> and what happens if you mix PBS with regular signals on the same block? collisions?
08:03:15 <Alberth> yep, make sure a PBS block can only be entered through a PBS signal
08:04:50 <scshunt> hmm... ok. An entry pre-signal does not care at all about the trains in its block?
08:05:03 <Alberth> an entry pre-signal makes sure a block has an exit before allowing a train in; the combo signal looks ahead further into next blocks
08:05:12 <scshunt> but what if there's a train in the block
08:05:25 <scshunt> does it ignore the train or go red?
08:05:27 <Alberth> all but the PBS signals allow at most one train in a block
08:06:46 <V453000> I suppose I should write a signals page
08:07:25 <Alberth> pre-signals are mostly for making sure crossings never get blocked by a train, but they are mostly outdated by PBS
08:07:29 <scshunt> a lot of the wiki on signals is like "here's some not quite entirely explanatory text, followed by an image at a wide zoom level that makes it hard to see what the signals all actually are
08:08:23 <Alberth> scshunt: yep, problem is that a lot of that text is written by people that understand the subject
08:08:37 <Alberth> so they don't focus on things important for a new user
08:08:44 <V453000> Alberth: both have completely different uses :) the only problem is that they are both an entry check which means they are often exchange-able in stations, but comparing them is really silly
08:09:25 <scshunt> if I understand correctly, pre-signals would allow for a long stretch that can be reversed safely, and PBS does not
08:10:10 <V453000> most of the time they should be used correctly
08:10:16 <V453000> otherwise someone would have noticed
08:10:40 <Alberth> V453000: seeing a good solution does not mean you understand why that is a good solution, imho
08:11:42 <Alberth> scshunt: reverse? why would you want to do that?
08:12:02 <V453000> yes and no :) seeing it in a savegame means you can pause the game, and/or edit the signals and understand it that way
08:12:07 <Alberth> but yes, a single train in a block gives more room for doing weird things :)
08:12:26 <V453000> with absolute extreme signal mechanisms savegame is almost the only way how to understand it
08:12:43 <scshunt> Alberth: because in my first game, I was thinking like in real life where you often have a single stretch of track that runs in both directions with crossovers to accomodate bidirectional travel
08:12:52 <Alberth> V453000: I agree you need to see it in action
08:13:12 <V453000> scshunt: never think "like in real life" in openttd :D does not lead to results
08:16:02 <scshunt> this was later evident when I discovered that a side circuit to retain momentum is advised
08:16:08 <scshunt> momentum isn't quite that valuable in real life
08:17:18 <Alberth> many people put a lot of trains at a line
08:17:39 <Alberth> any disruption breaks the flow very badly then
08:19:11 <scshunt> also, as I read more, I suspect that people wouldn't run a train in a circle just to time other trains either
08:19:17 <Alberth> also, a train does not slow down to run in the same pace as its predecessor, instead it stops
08:19:59 <Alberth> scshunt: people do make time tables to plan trains
08:20:59 <Alberth> I play with breakdowns enabled, which makes most planning kind of useless :p
08:21:57 <Alberth> There are several different styles of playing openttd, depending on what you focus on
08:25:20 <V453000> no there are only people who play the game, and people who are lazy to play the game :P
08:32:49 <scshunt> is there any time delay for signals, or are they instantaneous?
08:34:21 <V453000> most of those logic things are exceptional things which indeed are possible to build, but their usage is so specific that you normally dont build them
08:35:19 <scshunt> hmm... ok, I think I can already see how to develop a cyclotron that only allows trains to exit when operating at full speed
08:36:18 <scshunt> although I can't think of how do one without possibly having to stop the train before it goes in
08:36:21 <scshunt> (or stop some other train)
08:36:36 <V453000> cyclotrons are only a random-based thing which hopes to increaese the throughput of your line(s) ... but adding more lines is a lot more effective
08:37:00 <V453000> you just make a check in front of the cyclotron somewhere so no train can enter if the loop is full
08:38:31 <scshunt> yeah, but suppose you have a fast main line and a slow side line (say, a station). then you could develop a particle accelerator by carefully timing with an adjoining train in a circle
08:38:54 <V453000> not really worth it :)
08:39:46 <V453000> hint: you will need a correct revision to make it work though
08:40:41 <V453000> just duplicate your openttd folder, and overwrite this zip with it
08:46:03 <scshunt> thanks, though, I'll be back :)
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09:19:52 <andythenorth> so I fixed the palette on my new river sprites
09:20:09 <andythenorth> LH bank is current openttd sprites, RH bank is new sprites
09:20:36 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I want to carry on with this, you likely to accept it if I do?
09:25:24 <Rubidium> andythenorth: there you have it, Alberth accepts it ;)
09:25:48 <Rubidium> I see no obvious reason to reject it, though I wonder whether it's too dark
09:26:57 <andythenorth> that's adjustable
09:27:06 <andythenorth> I'll do the other tiles
09:27:10 <andythenorth> then we can look
09:27:14 <andythenorth> then I'll do the other climates
09:27:17 <andythenorth> will take a few days
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10:18:32 <Ruler> Hello. I'm having problems with openttd multiplayer.
10:18:48 <Ruler> I cannot see any servers in the multiplayer or online content in the online content menu
10:19:06 <Ruler> I have NAT. but I cannot figure out what to do with it to make it work
10:19:12 <DorpsGek> Zuu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:19:57 <Zuu> Usually no configuration is needed to enable clients to communicate out from a NAT.
10:20:36 <Zuu> But you could check both the router and local firewalls on your computer. The ports/protocolls used for communication is mentioned above.
10:20:57 <Ruler> well. then i cannot figure out what's wrong. I disabled all my software antivirus and firewall and stuff but nothing shows if i open openttd
10:21:49 <Zuu> Did you click on the "Find server" button?
10:21:57 <Zuu> (In the multiplayer window)
10:22:05 <Ruler> and the internet tab is selected
10:23:03 <Zuu> If you go to the bananas window (cilck on "check online content" in the main menu), and wait up to a minute, is the list populated with online content items?
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10:25:11 <Zuu> Ruler: What OpenTTD version do you use?
10:26:20 <Alberth> (12:20:57 PM) Ruler: well. then i cannot figure out what's wrong. I disabled all my software antivirus and firewall and stuff but nothing shows if i open openttd <-- and your router?
10:27:08 <Ruler> i cannot disable my router. my isp has provided it and it has limited options
10:27:44 <Ruler> i created a rule to allow 3978-3980 ports both ways
10:28:25 <Zuu> This rule is mapped to the same local IP that your computer is using?
10:28:27 <Alberth> outbound only should be fine though
10:29:49 <Ruler> got it working. doesn't like my wifi for some reason
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10:34:01 <Zuu> Ruler: A possible reason could be a too high packet loss on your wifi.
10:35:57 <Zuu> In my apartment, I can't do wifi cross the walls. I get better performance with 3G in my bedroom than with wifi (connected to a 10 Mbit service).
10:37:50 <Ruler> yeah. there's lots of wifi noise in the neighborhood also
10:38:25 <Ruler> all the apartments have wifi and it's hard to find a channel that isn't noisy in that sense
10:40:23 <oskari89> Is Central European Train Set GPL?=
10:40:59 <frosch123> it's hosted on the devzone, so it has to be some free license
10:41:14 <frosch123> so, i guess just check which license is bundled with it
10:41:22 <oskari89> Ok, i checked out the license, it seems to be GPL
10:41:48 <oskari89> So Finnish Trainset can use those green templates too :)
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11:18:57 <andythenorth> that's just a dirty flip of the RH banks to do the LH bank
11:19:19 <andythenorth> to be done properly needs shading tweaking
11:29:42 <Alberth> that needs a bit more work than adapting the corners :)
11:30:46 <Alberth> but openttd does proper maintenance on the river beds of course ;)
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11:56:37 <juzza1> does a newgrf vehicle, which is not available in any climate, reserve an id?
11:57:26 <NGC3982> That Openttd Android app keeps giving me a black screen.
11:57:53 <frosch123> not being available in any climate is a normal thing for articulated parts
12:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's over 2/3 of CETS vehicles
12:01:57 <oskari89> Eddi|zuhause: Those green templates aren't available?
12:02:05 <frosch123> total bloatware :) 2/3 of grf content is not available for purchase
12:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: yes, but only 1/3 of them
12:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (or fewer, if you keep default settings)
12:03:37 <oskari89> Someone has done some information mining on that CETS :)
12:03:57 <oskari89> The amount of stuff is kind of much
12:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's mostly just wikipedia stuff
12:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets tricky on some early vehicles
12:06:30 <juzza1> pictures of 19th century vehicles are pretty hard to come by :P
12:06:34 <juzza1> at least for finnish ones
12:07:30 <juzza1> data too, but fortunately there are some books available
12:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> german railway history is pretty well documented
12:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> although i left out the really early period of 1835-1870
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13:09:18 <LordAro> happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me...
13:09:43 <frosch123> you missed starwars day
13:11:11 <LordAro> actually, the time is much closer to may 6th, rather than today, or yesterday
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14:48:34 <Lordmwa> Would anyone be so kind as to briefly give me a hand regarding patching OTTD? I just have one error when compiling and i was wondering if it was a simple error that can easily be fixed or a complicated one - if complicated i shall leave it!
14:48:51 <Sacro> Don't ask to ask, just ask
14:49:00 <Lordmwa> Error 2 error C2065: 'STR_CONFIG_SETTING_TIMETABLE_ENABLE_SEPARATION' : undeclared identifier c:\users\james\desktop\new folder\objs\settings\table\settings.h 398 openttd
14:50:37 <frosch123> you probably did not open the right "solution" file
14:50:58 <frosch123> you should have a language project in the solution
14:51:18 <Lordmwa> yes its open - just checking it now
14:51:32 <frosch123> otoh, maybe the patch file misses the addition to src/lang/english.txt
14:53:30 <Lordmwa> added STR_CONFIG_SETTING_TIMETABLE_ENABLE_SEPARATION :{LTBLUE}Enable automatic timetable separation: {ORANGE}{STRING1} to english.txt now at sacros suggestion
14:53:38 <Lordmwa> just trying again now
14:54:38 <Lordmwa> that has worked - thanks
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15:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably be STRING2 now
15:23:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (and instead remove the orange)
15:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (that is, if you're trying to patch a newer revision)
15:26:38 <andythenorth> there is going to be a problem with these new rivers at the spring (river source)
15:27:01 <andythenorth> currently that's made by overlapping 2 opposite curves
15:27:51 <andythenorth> I wonder if it can be special-cased
15:27:55 <andythenorth> it's just some bits, right?
15:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that a problem, actually?
15:28:29 <andythenorth> the yellow represents where grey river edge will show
15:28:38 <andythenorth> so there will be a bizarre grey line
15:28:48 <andythenorth> or I could drop the grey for that bit...
15:28:55 <andythenorth> which will probably work fine?
15:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> or you just crop the sprites differently?
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15:29:46 <andythenorth> can you think of a way to do that and still get the large curve?
15:29:50 <andythenorth> if so, I'll use it
15:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how river shores are assembled
15:30:37 <andythenorth> lots of layering
15:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not an anwser to my question
15:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it should not be too troublesome to add more sprites to the river specs
15:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i certainly won't do that, though
15:37:31 <andythenorth> I might be able to solve it by cheating
15:38:54 <andythenorth> not properly shaded yet, but works?
15:39:21 <Alberth> looks like the right shape
15:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how will that interfere with the "normal" curve
15:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks very asymmetric now
15:40:53 <andythenorth> it is very asymmetric
15:41:31 <andythenorth> might be a kludge
15:42:04 <frosch123> considering there are random bits, and thus a123 chains are resolved for every river tile anyway, it might be easiest to expose the water connection status via a variable
15:42:18 * andythenorth feels it's too sunny for reading the river drawing code
15:43:02 <andythenorth> but I'm sure that the bits could be counted up and a different sprite used?
15:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so then, why is it ok to resolve this for rivers, but not for rails?
15:43:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: this is openttd.grf btw, not some andythenorth.grf
15:46:31 <andythenorth> I should draw some snaking stream-river thing for the springs
15:46:35 <andythenorth> it looks silly currently
15:47:37 <andythenorth> fully formed river springs up in 1 tile
15:49:10 <frosch123> you cannot distinguish begin and end of river
15:49:40 <frosch123> if you really want to touch the R thingie, you are likely best of with some underground-tunnel-entrance-thingie
15:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> small streams as "objects"
15:50:32 <oskari89> What was the max resolution for picture showing up on tt-forums?
15:51:18 <andythenorth> I don't mind not having to draw stuff
15:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: there might be a kB limit as well
15:52:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: just imagine how a lake would look like, which has only one tile at one end
15:52:22 <andythenorth> like a lake with a spring feeding it? o_O
15:52:57 <oskari89> Have some neat screenshots here
15:53:11 <oskari89> Ready to boost up Finnish Trainset thread
15:54:54 <andythenorth> so we can't tell what is begin / end of river
15:55:11 <andythenorth> but the bits on the tile know if it's a curve or a dead end?
15:55:30 <andythenorth> so the overlapping issue with these new curves could be avoided?
15:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's information-theoretically possible. just nobody has implemented it yet.
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16:12:23 <alluke> @oskari89 guess its 640 width, height shouldnt matter
16:13:41 <frosch123> height doesn't matter? :p
16:13:51 <frosch123> who is going to check whether that is right? :p
16:15:19 <alluke> you can since i have never posted any screenies xD
16:15:35 <alluke> i just thought that since you scroll the site anyway
16:16:20 <andythenorth> so maybe I'll read the river drawing code later :P
16:16:35 <andythenorth> it's time I learnt how the game works anyway :|
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16:47:08 * andythenorth wonders where river drawing code might be
16:52:09 <andythenorth> kind of understand it, not very well
16:53:42 <andythenorth> Switch for each corner. If certain bits found, draw some edges? Check neighbouring tile in certain direction, if doesn't contains water, draw corner piece?
17:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: while you're there, the drawing code should treat MP_VOID tiles as if they were MP_WATER, to make rivers look like they flow in/out of the map edge
17:18:05 <alluke> @oskari89 where are those screenies
17:18:35 <alluke> ah ok i thought you had them already
17:19:03 <oskari892> Good things have to be waited ;)
17:24:31 <alluke> and really good things have to be waited for 8 years
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17:25:20 <alluke> what are those valmet m2200 engines
17:36:53 <oskari892> A line locomotive version of Dr16, fictional of course
17:37:23 <oskari892> And also the M4000E1 electric locomotive is done
17:38:25 <oskari892> Later those will be disabled by default and enabled by switch, if wanted
17:39:41 <oskari892> Fictional but plans were ready for those, so semi-fictional :P
17:43:40 <alluke> will the testing stuff go under the switch too
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25219 /trunk/src/lang (gaelic.txt galician.txt) (2013-05-05 17:45:13 UTC)
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> galician - 37 changes by Michi
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 20 changes by GunChleoc
17:47:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nice point about map edge
17:47:47 <andythenorth> no idea how to fix that :)
17:48:56 <alluke> im sure hell freezes before andy stops talking aboout rivers
17:51:14 <oskari892> Alluke: not since it has been in Finnish rails, even a little time :P
17:51:35 <oskari892> Doesn't bother me at all
17:51:59 <oskari892> How many screenshots i should post
17:52:24 <alluke> if you want i can preview em and pick my favorites
17:53:05 <oskari892> That leads to quadruple post :P
17:53:23 <oskari892> I think i put three first
17:54:49 <alluke> it should weigh 46 tons
18:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: nah, andythenorth traditionally has a rather short attention span, so he'll find something else to focus on soon :)
18:13:16 <alluke> but he has been focused on rivers for (over?) a year now
18:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> short attention span doesn't mean it can't be recurring :)
18:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it shouldn't be difficult, just find the place where it checks whether an adjacent tile is MP_WATER and add a check for MP_VOID there as well
18:20:01 <oskari892> Screenshots anyone?
18:24:15 <oskari892> planetmaker: Thanks :)
18:24:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: bit harsh. More like a high-frequency attention span
18:24:59 <andythenorth> also my ignore list grew
18:25:05 <__ln___> that kinnula station building is maybe a little too bright, it looks like las vegas.
18:25:44 <oskari892> __ln___: Maybe, could be adjusted later when redrawn
18:25:47 <alluke> whats with all that concrete around the stations
18:25:56 <andythenorth> also it's totally unmotivating to work on something when dickheads show up and throw peanuts
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18:26:12 <alluke> and id put chips mud-platforms to the sand pit
18:26:42 <oskari892> alluke: that is gravel
18:29:57 <oskari892> alluke: Maybe you could do better screenshots? :P
18:30:38 <alluke> i have one fts testgame
18:33:21 <oskari892> allukke: tractive efforts corrected, green Edm, refitting Dv12, etc...
18:33:49 <oskari892> You can replace it in game but be aware
18:33:56 <alluke> what about the dmg7 issue i posted
18:34:03 <alluke> i have replaced all the previous ones :P
18:34:25 <alluke> some trains get fucket but get fixed when i rebuy them
18:35:36 <juzza1> didnt make the dmg7 yet but will do later
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18:36:18 <alluke> my 2xdv12 - 7xeil - eifet turned into tk3 - sv1s - sr3 :P
18:36:23 <juzza1> i added a lot of new trains (all of which are hidden because there are no sprites) so the ids are messed up again
18:36:41 <alluke> ill jsut rebuy it and its good again
18:37:59 <alluke> whats the point in refitting between series?
18:38:55 <oskari892> Well you can decide yourserlf :P
18:38:58 <juzza1> different sounds and gfx
18:40:55 <alluke> lower fots mail capacity to 50 or 40 bags
18:41:07 <alluke> otherwise its too competitive with pot
18:41:31 <oskari892> Hmm, it should be modern replacement of Pot
18:43:23 <alluke> is it possible to make it carry pax and mail
18:44:27 <oskari892> You can put two of those in a train and refit other on other cargo
18:45:53 <oskari892> Seems that i must double-track some line
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18:56:34 <alluke> but fots should have less capacity since it has the passenger compartment
19:05:16 <oskari89> Don't know if that is really necessary, but if, 50 bags could be ok
19:05:38 <oskari89> I have stations always flooding on mail
19:05:51 <oskari89> Some extra capacity is always welcome
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19:14:05 <alluke> thats what the pot is for ;)
19:14:19 <alluke> if you know what i mean
19:14:19 <oskari89> But then it has lower speed
19:14:35 <oskari89> Limits consist to 140 km/h
19:14:39 <alluke> you have to pick either faster or bigger
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20:43:26 <alluke> i hate the dev.ottdcoop
20:43:52 <alluke> and you cant edit/delete your messages
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continue to next day ⏵
