IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-06
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00:09:53 <michi_cc> drac_boy: I guess you want cargo prop 1D (and 0F, but that's not for capacity).
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00:47:15 <drac_boy> thanks anyway michi_cc had a look at these
00:48:29 <michi_cc> Both props are fixed point values, so you can do fractions with them.
00:55:30 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
00:56:15 * drac_boy wonders if Supercheese is having connection mold problem? :)
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01:01:54 *** userpics has joined #openttd
01:04:30 <userpics> anyone know how to change userpics? (accedently thought nickname was title)
01:06:05 *** trainman1432 has joined #openttd
01:06:28 <drac_boy> trainman one stupidly simple rule: if you want to ask a question, wait long enough for an answer to be typed out -_-
01:07:15 <drac_boy> trainman noone can really type 100 words in one second silly :)
01:07:43 <trainman1432> also do you know how to change user picplus im only 8
01:07:51 <drac_boy> anyway trainman for the next time just do '/nick newnamehere' without the quotation marks
01:08:04 <trainman1432> whoops typo there
01:08:06 <drac_boy> by user pic do you mean on forum or ?
01:08:23 <trainman1432> yes, fourm user pic
01:08:34 <drac_boy> no idea, don't have a forum account yet sorry
01:08:43 <drac_boy> I'm sure someone should be able to tell you....in a few minutes :p
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01:12:19 <trainman1432> UMM.. drac my man, are you there
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01:13:39 <trainman1432> and drac BTW do you know it is the tt-forums
01:15:05 <trainman1432> DDDDAAAAANNNNGGG YOU SO SLOW
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01:16:31 <trainman1432> DRAC_BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
01:17:26 <trainman1432> ARE you F***ingledy thre
01:18:10 <Sacro> trainman1432: quiet down
01:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and i thought everyone else was also afraid to say something when a hyperactive person is in the room :p
01:19:08 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: i'm not afraid
01:19:13 <trainman1432> sacro do you know where drac boy is
01:19:26 <Zuu> You can go to the user profile section of tt-forums
01:19:26 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: aside from of Germans
01:20:07 <Zuu> Often you have to click 2-3 times to get to the right sub page of the profile page to get the right setting page.
01:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: as well you should be :p
01:21:26 * drac_boy was wondering whether 1. trainman was going to refuse to understand waiting a lousy few minutes or 2. someone told him something
01:21:32 <trainman1432> well i just found out he left or changed his nickname BTW he was called drac_boy
01:21:40 <drac_boy> sacro I've always made veal schnitzels once in a while :)
01:21:43 <Sacro> drac_boy: think he's en route to canada
01:21:53 <Sacro> also are you the old dhb?
01:22:04 <Sacro> some people change names
01:22:11 <drac_boy> enroute to canada? that would be fun because the airports here don't like young people with no parents
01:22:27 <Sacro> oh send them here, the bbc will look after him
01:22:48 <trainman1432> You have no parents??????????????:O
01:23:21 <drac_boy> not sure who that is sorry sacro?
01:23:23 <Sacro> no, he was picked up out a depot
01:23:38 <Sacro> drac_boy: heh, going with the 1 canadian === another canadian
01:23:47 <Sacro> if you aren't him you must be Belugas
01:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> THEY ALL KNOW EACH OTHER!!!
01:23:58 <drac_boy> sacro heh I think there was danmack, he's obviously canadian
01:24:10 <drac_boy> mind you I've never talked to him, seen some of his forum posts tho
01:24:26 * drac_boy has canset.grf as well ofc
01:24:33 <Sacro> didn't you live with dalestan and ... patchman
01:24:41 <trainman1432> ?what the fudge are you talking about? :?
01:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i'Ve ever had one of the canadian grfs
01:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: your royal family are all germans
01:25:19 <Sacro> Philip the Greek for instance
01:25:20 <drac_boy> eddi well if you have played with NARS or 2CC then you do have a bit of canada in it? :)
01:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: not really
01:25:51 <Sacro> and Kate Mmmmmmmmiddleton
01:26:12 <Sacro> we are all europeans here
01:26:24 <trainman1432> also candian train set
01:26:27 <drac_boy> I've never liked 2CC too much because of the confusing buy list but wouldn't complain tho
01:26:40 <drac_boy> I do know the Royal Hudson is in the list for one :p
01:26:54 <trainman1432> is canadian sorry for dble post
01:27:15 <drac_boy> sacro I have dbsetxl too, been wondering about the upcoming next version of it too
01:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: for different values of "upcoming" :p
01:27:34 <drac_boy> that is unless its openttd-only but we'll just have to see
01:28:08 <trainman1432> what are you talking about?
01:28:37 <trainman1432> i realy dont know Sorry for typo
01:28:42 <Sacro> trainman1432: just put "eh" on the end
01:28:49 <Sacro> that'll help us remember the canadian thing
01:28:58 <drac_boy> sacro, as in 'eh whats up doc?' :P
01:29:04 <Sacro> they ... think ... i'm ... slow ... eh
01:29:06 <trainman1432> what canidian thing
01:30:58 <Sacro> i think trainman1432 did
01:31:47 * drac_boy smacks trainman for cursing two times tonight :P
01:32:17 <trainman1432> how did you do that dracboy?
01:32:30 <Zuu> trainman1432: While we don't have a rule to use nice language, please stick to a language that you would use with friendly people IRL.
01:32:55 <drac_boy> trainman try this '/me mutters' or something
01:33:01 <drac_boy> you'll see for yourself
01:34:38 * trainman1432 hears zuu snoring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
01:35:21 <trainman1432> and ps drac boy you are not right next to me
01:36:21 * drac_boy points trainman to the definition of 'spamming'
01:36:28 <trainman1432> gag gag gag gag*
01:36:56 <drac_boy> NGC3982-2 I don't know what to make of this weird person either -_-
01:37:13 <NGC3982-2> Managing ECS is hell.
01:37:42 <drac_boy> heh, I have to agree NGC3982-2 more than often I left the chemical and automobile vectors out
01:37:47 <drac_boy> simplifies some of the other things
01:38:55 <trainman1432> is '/ban' a cmd?
01:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should give him an easy exercise, like this one: "Exercise 1.1. (4 Points): prove that the following functions are in the class E^0 of the Grzergorczyk-Hierarchy: f_1(x) = 1-x, f_2(x,y)=x-y, f_3(x,y)=(1-x)*y, f_4(x,y) = (1-x)+y"
01:42:27 <trainman1432> What does all that "garbage" mean?
01:43:33 <trainman1432> You swore sacro:O
01:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> he's an adult (i can't believe i just said that :p)
01:44:45 <trainman1432> ps do you know him????
01:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never met him in person.
01:45:04 <NGC3982-2> Math on IRC are the most devilish of profanity.
01:45:18 <trainman1432> hkhflsdjhflsdjhfalvbcx,mgllauhflsjdhflksdhjlskhfljsdkhfsljhfsjhkfsljdkfh
01:45:57 <NGC3982-2> I think that's my que.
01:46:16 <trainman1432> really!?!?!??!??!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!????!!!!!
01:46:25 <Sacro> trainman1432: i'm an adult
01:46:34 <Sacro> i've been here a decade
01:46:38 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: that depresses me
01:46:50 <Sacro> i think it was 2002 when i came on here first
01:47:09 <trainman1432> LOLOLOLOLOLing for no reason
01:47:44 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!47ee2326@ircip3.mibbit.com
01:47:45 *** trainman1432 was kicked by DorpsGek (Yes, /ban is a command)
01:48:00 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 13 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 28 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
01:48:11 <drac_boy> good, I was wondering when this would stop
01:48:41 <drac_boy> sacro heh thats quite a long time :/
01:48:44 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -b *!47ee2326@ircip3.mibbit.com
01:49:50 *** trainman1432 has joined #openttd
01:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i doubt he actually understood that
01:50:56 <Sacro> some people are still here
01:51:12 <trainman1432> ok i had to reload the page and found out that '/ban' is a cmd
01:51:26 <Sacro> that's not zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs
01:51:35 <trainman1432> lidhljhlkjhflsdjfhakjfhasjhfsl
01:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: well he moved...
01:52:53 <Sacro> also the logs only go back to 2006
01:52:57 <Sacro> i remember there being logs before then
01:53:01 <trainman1432> is drac boy still here
01:54:05 <trainman1432> and what is a star next to a user mean?
01:54:10 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: have you met many from here?
01:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i've met some people, yes
01:54:24 <Sacro> trainman1432: how many points?
01:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: the david star has 6...
01:55:47 <Sacro> trainman1432: jews have to identify themselves on irc
01:55:48 <trainman1432> i wasnt talking about pts
01:57:00 <trainman1432> also who is dorpsgek?
01:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> he's the village idiot
01:59:20 <trainman1432> are you out if your MIND\?
02:00:18 <Stimrol> peww, Icelandic translation is now 100% done, gratulation to me
02:00:56 <trainman1432> ok dorpsgek is village idiot in ddutch
02:01:07 <Sacro> now both of you can play in icelandic
02:02:12 * trainman1432 get a splitting headache
02:02:13 <Stimrol> yes my and my other countryman, we have our own language
02:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: when we can have commits for "the MorphOS user", why can't we have a translation for "both icelandic speakers" :p
02:02:53 <Stimrol> I have heard that there are more people that know klingon than icelandic, I find that funny
02:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> although the morphos port is broken for ages, i fear
02:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: well, the average european city has more inhabitants than whole of iceland :)
02:03:42 * trainman1432 slaps Eddi|zuHause
02:04:09 <Stimrol> hehe I know, iceland is like lets say Bergen in Norway
02:04:18 <Sacro> is the os/2 build still going?
02:04:24 <Sacro> or did orudge give up fixing it for himself
02:05:01 * trainman1432 blows up tnt next to eddi|zuhause
02:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> although anything that can run gcc4 should be able to run openttd nowadays
02:05:29 <Stimrol> but here is why Iceland is officialy hip and 8 reason to visit it --> fb.me/FHYPkDd9
02:06:38 <Sacro> trainman1432: you have a private message, type "/server messages" to see it
02:07:28 <Sacro> or does hat not work on the web client
02:07:52 <trainman1432> all i want is you to get off this dumb iceland thing of yours
02:09:01 <Sacro> press alt+f4 for quick exit
02:09:46 <Stimrol> I thought this iceland remarks where funny, and I am from there, one of two
02:10:46 <trainman1432> sound like mr. scroge
02:12:07 * trainman1432 thinks everyone on is dead
02:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> trainman1432: you realize there are timezones and stuff?
02:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> trainman1432: and 90% of the people here are from europe?
02:13:05 <TrueBrain> @kban trainman1432 60 it might be late, but I still think it is rude
02:13:05 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!47ee2326@ircip2.mibbit.com
02:13:06 *** trainman1432 was kicked by DorpsGek (it might be late, but I still think it is rude)
02:14:05 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -b *!47ee2326@ircip2.mibbit.com
02:14:12 <TrueBrain> didn't read much, if he was saying anything useful; I just disliked the lines of fs :P
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02:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you did nothing wrong for sure :p
02:15:09 <trainman1432> i realy think dorpsgek has done enogh to me
02:15:10 <Sacro> i'd love to visit iceland
02:15:18 <Sacro> pick up some fish fingers and burgers and such
02:17:00 * trainman1432 gets brody's ghost
02:17:24 <Stimrol> always welcome, I am told it is good to come with foreign money to iceland now when the krona is so low, at least some norvegian friend love icelandic shoping. While I cant afford it :)
02:17:40 <Sacro> damn, you didn't get the joke :(
02:17:51 * trainman1432 thinks dorpsgek does not like me
02:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well you called him an idiot
02:18:34 <Stimrol> hehe, better late than never
02:19:03 <Stimrol> but I think I should sleep now, good night
02:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well he's dutch. and you called him an idiot
02:19:44 <trainman1432> thats part of is name
02:21:35 <Sacro> i should go to bed also
02:23:04 <trainman1432> why is stimotrol still on?
02:24:06 <trainman1432> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllloooooooooooooo
02:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> he doesn't know the time, because it's all dark there
02:24:48 <trainman1432> its dark here too wimps
02:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but not all day long
02:25:40 <trainman1432> p.s. do you dunno is slang
02:25:52 <TrueBrain> for once I truly dont know what to do about it ... is it real, or is it an act .. normally it is more clear :P
02:26:36 <TrueBrain> normally I work on the rule: if it smells like a troll it is one
02:27:09 <trainman1432> any one know how you know how to change tt forums user pic?
02:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> don't blame on trolling which you can blame on inexperience :p
02:27:47 <TrueBrain> well, my dylema exactly :D
02:27:48 <trainman1432> Prtyuytrtytruiffd
02:28:07 <TrueBrain> @kban trainman1432 10000 finally a reason; thank you
02:28:07 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!47ee2326@ircip1.mibbit.com
02:28:08 *** trainman1432 was kicked by DorpsGek (finally a reason; thank you)
02:28:13 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
02:28:24 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!47ee2326@*.mibbit.com
02:28:28 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
02:29:06 <TrueBrain> I should learn DorpsGek about mibbit, so it can adjust his bans :D
02:29:40 <TrueBrain> well, off to bed for me too .. sorry for taken your toy Eddi :)
02:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm going to sleep as well :)
02:30:04 <TrueBrain> one big sleepover! WHOHO!
02:30:09 <TrueBrain> night all, night Sacro, night Eddi :)
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07:06:03 <Pikka> did I ever mention how much I hate the broken perspective in TTD?
07:06:27 <Pikka> ie, how much smaller vehicles are drawn in the / views compared to the - views
07:06:49 <andythenorth> I have some errors in that department
07:07:03 <andythenorth> I have to redraw HEQS for that sometime
07:09:33 <andythenorth> industries that randomise accepted / produced cargo at build time....
07:09:37 <andythenorth> ...good idea or smells of wee?
07:11:14 <Pikka> for a certain subset of possible combinations, of course
07:11:42 <Pikka> and different graphics for different "types" of port ;)
07:18:12 <andythenorth> low gear, slowly
07:18:17 <Pikka> hoqvs = mainstream to the point of boringness
07:18:39 <andythenorth> as an rv set should be
07:18:44 <Pikka> I am, rather reluctantly, going to include two horse-drawn vehicles
07:20:03 <Pikka> andy: shall I not include horses?
07:20:27 <Pikka> I've got to give the AIs something to go broke building, surely
07:21:09 <Pikka> okay, you've talked me into it, no horses :D
07:31:22 <Pikka> although I may push that back a little, I dunno
07:38:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: the problem with horses is that they don't look good :)
07:38:23 * andythenorth ponders a steam punk version of ttd history
07:38:27 <Pikka> if I did horses, they'd be about a fifth the size of the egrvts ones :)
07:38:36 <andythenorth> kettle steamers in 1810 :P
07:38:47 <Supercheese> airships, airships everywhere
07:39:00 <Supercheese> Steam engines and hydrogen, why not
07:42:45 <Pikka> horses for towncars, though :)
07:43:04 * andythenorth doesn't add Paper to FIRS
07:43:17 <Pikka> lots and lots of lovely slow horses for your crappybuses to get stuck behind
07:43:51 <Pikka> but yes, that sort of thing
07:43:53 <andythenorth> hackney carriages
07:44:30 <andythenorth> you should come here more often
07:44:46 <Pikka> supercrappytruck from 1915
07:45:07 <andythenorth> bout the same as BANDIT
07:45:13 <andythenorth> are you making BANDIT for me?
07:45:17 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered
07:45:41 <Pikka> you'll just need to add the roadtrains
07:46:38 <andythenorth> not even sure roadtrains are wise
07:46:43 <andythenorth> just adding them for australians :P
07:47:03 <Pikka> need roadtypes so we can keep them out of towns
07:50:17 <andythenorth> what is roadtypes?
07:51:07 <andythenorth> I had better do this FIRS thing
07:51:21 <andythenorth> like stabilisers
07:52:31 <andythenorth> only if there's an r in the month
07:55:10 <andythenorth> looks strangely like a food shop right now
07:55:52 <andythenorth> why isn't cheese a cargo?
07:56:15 <Pikka> should've been a cargo in lunar, obviously
07:56:29 <andythenorth> more cheese grommit?
07:58:36 <Pikka> I do like a bit of gorgonzola
08:07:50 <andythenorth> ports where tiles accept anything
08:07:55 <andythenorth> just dump stuff in for money
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08:11:05 <andythenorth> silly build framework
08:11:10 <andythenorth> thinks cargos are just strings
08:11:18 <andythenorth> can't apply them to tiles like that :P
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08:54:38 <peter1138> ^ couple of tweaks and added doxygenation
08:58:37 <peter1138> looks really nice with that old viaduct, heh
09:00:16 <peter1138> well, perpendicularlyyyyy
09:00:23 <peter1138> not so much parallel
09:01:39 <Pikka> next stop, roadtypes! :D
09:04:33 <Supercheese> Or proper ship locks, as mb seems to rather much want...
09:04:53 <Supercheese> I dunno, the OTTD way decreases overall transit times ;)
09:17:10 <andythenorth> ship locks are overrateds
09:18:23 <andythenorth> if we're going to dick around with locks, we need newgrf versions
09:18:30 <Supercheese> I usually just dig out a canal and let it fill naturally anyway
09:18:38 <Supercheese> much less maintenance costs
09:19:11 <Supercheese> Like a fish ladder :D
09:19:21 <andythenorth> locks are just part of NewAirports right? :P
09:19:41 <Terkhen> just attach a helicopter to all ships
09:19:50 <Terkhen> sadly that would require vehicles inside vehicles
09:20:08 <Supercheese> hovercraft, go anywhere
09:20:20 <andythenorth> hovercraft = ground level aircraft
09:20:20 <Supercheese> was a patch for that, IIRC ;)
09:23:04 <Terkhen> a few days ago I noticed that aircraft shadows are shown under stuff like trees or houses
09:23:04 <Terkhen> maybe aircraft shadows are hovercrafts?
09:24:17 <Terkhen> or, not shown, they are hidden
09:24:37 <Terkhen> in the weekends, my english tends to be even worse because I don't drink coffee
09:25:55 <peter1138> under is right, behind would be normal
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09:29:16 <Terkhen> good night Supercheese
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09:30:10 * andythenorth wonders how much ottd could be adapted to warcraft 1 style game
09:30:16 <andythenorth> need NewDisasters
09:30:22 <andythenorth> for war purposes
09:30:50 <andythenorth> what say you war?
09:31:16 <andythenorth> that would do it
09:31:31 <andythenorth> actually more like Worms maybe :P
09:32:18 * andythenorth ponders a 'battlefield' industry
09:32:30 <andythenorth> in MP each player just delivers as much troops + ammo
09:32:36 <andythenorth> GS adjucates who's winning
09:33:25 <andythenorth> every month, GS lets you blow up n tiles belonging to enemy, n determined by how well you're doing
09:33:26 <Pikka> what about the apaches and F4s?
09:33:47 <andythenorth> I can't have all the good ideas :P
09:33:56 <Terkhen> just play an RTS instead :P
09:33:57 <andythenorth> blow stuff up with them?
09:34:21 <andythenorth> the only one I want to play is Warcraft 1
09:34:26 <andythenorth> and I can't figure out how to do that :P
09:35:12 <Terkhen> dosbox may be your friend
09:35:52 <Celestar> RRTD works nicely in dosbox :P
09:36:09 <Pikka> RV offsets are horrible
09:37:36 <andythenorth> I have some somewhere based on your train templates
09:37:59 <Pikka> it would be nice if the train numbers worked :)
09:38:08 <andythenorth> probably no good to you :P
09:38:40 <andythenorth> can't even remember how those work
09:38:43 <andythenorth> some templating thing
09:38:47 <Pikka> I'm just going with near enough is good enough :)
09:39:34 <Pikka> rv offsets don't seem to be nice and mathematically sensible like rail ones
09:40:00 <andythenorth> as long as the turning looks right, you're ok
09:40:11 <andythenorth> I reckon they're a bit fucked wrt drive side
09:40:16 <andythenorth> but I've been told I'm wrong :P
09:40:44 <andythenorth> if you set them up to look correct for LH drive, then play a RH drive game, you'll want to change them all :P
09:41:23 <peter1138> i was coding ameecher's trams
09:41:29 <peter1138> looked lovely in ottd
09:41:35 <peter1138> was a horrible mess in ttdp
09:42:06 * Pikka makes them look half reasonable for driving on the left
09:42:17 <Pikka> driving on the right can go jump
09:42:25 <peter1138> a set he drew years ago
09:42:31 <peter1138> (i was coding them years ago too)
09:43:40 <peter1138> 25 years til the 2038 bug
09:43:53 <Flygon> OpenTTD needs a 2038 disaster
09:44:11 <Flygon> All the computers in trains and airplanes built after 1970 explode
09:44:19 <Flygon> So you end up having to use Steam Engines again
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09:51:58 <Alberth> Flygon: but the machines to build those steam engines are broken too!
09:52:11 <Flygon> You can hand build steam locomotives
09:52:32 <Flygon> It involves hammers, rivets, and technical knowledge
09:53:17 <Terkhen> who will make the steel? :)
09:55:59 <Alberth> let's use the steel of the tracks :p
09:57:27 <Terkhen> but that would be recycling!
09:57:40 <Flygon> Then refine it into steel
09:57:48 <Flygon> According to Ragnarok Online
09:58:51 <Flygon> Though, Ragnarok doesn't let Blacksmiths make Flygon's 10+ Very Very Strong Fire Steam Locomotive's...
09:59:15 <Terkhen> there are games without trains? what a flawed concept
09:59:22 <Terkhen> all games should have trains
09:59:54 <Celestar> RRTD biggest flaw: "Station Limit Exceeded"
10:00:53 <Celestar> railraod tycoon deluxe
10:01:04 <Celestar> I found a disk image while cleaning up my HDD yesterday :P
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10:03:49 <Flygon> Terkhen: Ragnarok has trains. You just can't build them.
10:05:02 <Flygon> Most images draw attention to the Blimps...
10:05:38 <Flygon> Gravity may have derped there
10:06:11 <Flygon> This's the same game that has railway tracks that have sleepers on top of the tracks
10:08:28 <Celestar> the fan blows the helium outta the blimp? :P
10:08:40 <Flygon> Celestar, I honestly don't know
10:08:50 <Flygon> I don't think the ingame model actually had that error
10:08:57 <Celestar> although, there could be a pipe or a huge hose through the center sucking air in from the front.
10:09:15 <Celestar> like a big hairdryer :(
10:09:49 <Flygon> ...and yet, only the ingame model takes the term 'Airship' literally. All other official art has it as a Blimp.
10:10:45 <Celestar> pfft how can I have a merge conflict in cargodist ... I didn't do any local modifictaions :P
10:12:56 <Celestar> nice that openttd compiles rapidly meanwhile :P
10:20:22 <Celestar> jesus h. christ how many game settings are there meanwhile?
10:20:44 <Terkhen> luckily you can filter them now :P
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10:24:38 <Celestar> distribution mode 'manual' does what exactly?
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10:54:51 <Zuu> Celestar: The distribution mode thingy can be used to create areas of flat land and areas of hills.
10:55:27 <Zuu> Its a powerful but interesting setting.
10:58:41 <Zuu> I was just not paying attention to those.
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11:20:39 <Celestar> Zuu: so what do you normally use for pax and mail? symmetric?
11:21:40 <Zuu> Celestar: Hmm, I think I mixed up with the "Variety distribution" setting in the map gen window.
11:22:20 <Zuu> The distribution mode is related to cargodist which I think is supposed to be symetric for pax, mail and other town cargo.
11:23:06 <Celestar> hm... trains tend to cluster :/
11:23:10 <Zuu> Only if you play eg FIRS or some other NewGRF which use passengers in industry concepts, a asymetric distribution may be useful. (to my understanding, but it was 1-2 years since I played cargodist last)
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11:23:20 <Alberth> Zuu : symmetric goods?
11:23:40 <Zuu> Celestar: That is the golden rule of public transport systems. :-)
11:24:15 <Zuu> You need to insert buffer time in the timetable for them to not bunch.
11:24:33 <Alberth> nah, just buy enough trains to fill the entire line :p
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11:26:48 <Celestar> Zuu: give me a quick explanation how to do that. I got one line A - B - C - D - E served by 5 trains ...
11:26:59 <Celestar> trains got orders A-E-A
11:28:03 <Zuu> I always play with explicit non-stop orders. But as long as you make sure the "non-stop" flag is not set, it should work I think.
11:28:22 <Zuu> But the train probably have to run a round so that implicit orders are added to the order window.
11:28:48 <Zuu> Otherwise, I don't expect cargodist to know how to route cargo.
11:29:37 <Alberth> drac_boy: adding money to FreeRCT might have been a bad idea; I sell things, but not enough :p
11:30:03 <drac_boy> heh freerct? hows that differ from rct
11:30:05 <Zuu> Alberth: All you need is to invent the money cheat
11:30:05 <Alberth> also, CTH coding style is horrible
11:31:07 <Alberth> Zuu: I should probably increase the profits; 0.10 profit for cookies and 0.30 for pizza is too cheap :p
11:31:36 <Alberth> Unfortunately, I cannot set the amount of profit manually yet :p
11:31:57 <Zuu> Or do you have your own game currency? :-)
11:32:01 <Alberth> Zuu: don't know, whatever you like :)
11:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> andy: shall I not include horses? <-- there should be a "generic horse set" (eGRVTS spinoff)
11:32:57 <Zuu> I hope it is a currency with high value of the money. I wouln't like to sell pizza if that was in the Swedish Krona. :-p
11:33:44 <Alberth> Zuu: doesn't matter, all costs scale in the same way :p
11:33:46 <Celestar> not getting MUCH better with the timetable
11:34:38 <Alberth> there is an explanation how to do time tables at the wiki, I think
11:34:41 <Zuu> I usually don't bother with timetables in OpenTTD. Its a job just to create a time table.
11:34:50 <Alberth> but I didnot have much luck with them either
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11:35:51 <Zuu> I only use them to set a time for vehicles to stay in stations when I don't want to use full load.
11:37:42 <Zuu> But to add a buffer, you need to first fill the timetable so that you get real travel times for the legs. Then you increase the time at stations (or legs) so that the total length is longer that the usual travel time. Now if a vehicle get delayed, it will have the ability to catch up by staying shorter at stations.
11:38:52 <Zuu> Another task is to spread out the vehicles equally. This is something you have to do manually in OpenTTD. (there are patches to automate this, but none of them have been included in trunk)
11:39:42 <drac_boy> zuu I don't know if this applies for you too or not but a simple trick for train spacing is to have signals far apart and/or just one platform at the end of route
11:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: manually set the timetable start times to be X days apart after you set a timetable
11:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: make sure the timetable is complete
11:40:24 <drac_boy> sometimes for a small route thats long enough to need two trains but not much more I'll have it single line almost all way except for a short passing loop somewhere around in the middle
11:42:50 <peter1138> there'll never be horses in ottd
11:45:15 <Flygon> There's tramsets with 5 car trams?
11:45:33 <Flygon> Even nicer would be 10 car...
11:45:52 * Flygon feeds drac_boy a Watermelon for some reason
11:46:12 * Flygon feeds drac_boy a Mango for some reason
11:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: that's GermanRV, but the scales are messed up somewhat. you get 2-tile sets that have almost the same size as 1-tile-sets
11:46:51 <frosch123> s/size/capacity/ probably
11:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i meant capacity
11:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (signs on the right say: "Capacity" - "Length (1 Tile = 16)" - "Ratio")
11:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because someone thought making the capacity "realistic" but the length not was a good idea, or something...
11:56:20 <peter1138> sorry it's all in german
11:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if it was the RussianRV set, it might have been all in russian :p
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12:37:08 <andythenorth> looks like a nu nu
12:37:33 <peter1138> that's what i was thinking of
12:37:36 <peter1138> but couldn't remember the name
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12:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like a kids' tv show
12:40:53 <Alberth> It is, tele-tubbies iirc
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12:45:24 <frosch123> yup, definitely teletubbies
12:45:33 <frosch123> it's present in the tt-memory game of my nice
12:46:39 <frosch123> hmm.... open tele tubbies deluxe?
12:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> don't tell V4530001!!
12:48:37 <andythenorth> someone want to convert a load of FIRS properties for me?
12:49:20 <Alberth> you didn't script it?
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13:01:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24889 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-06 13:01:46 UTC)
13:01:52 <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: extra GRF was built with "broken" grfcodec
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13:28:14 * Zuu found a new addiciton in playing Settlers of Catan online.
13:28:58 <Zuu> Only issue is that the service that I use don't insert a bot when someone leaves as they do when you play Ticket to ride online.
13:29:39 <Zuu> Instead the game is stale and impossible to continue unless some kind user decide to join a half-played game.
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14:25:14 <andythenorth> best / most compact way to check for list / tuple in python?
14:26:26 <SpComb> andythenorth: check what?
14:27:23 <andythenorth> I have an attribute in scope, I want to see if I can safely call ','.join() on it
14:27:30 <andythenorth> strings fail that for my case :P
14:28:18 <SpComb> so you have a variable that's either a string or a list/tuple?
14:28:31 <SpComb> or an iterator? generator? set? dict?
14:28:52 <SpComb> distinguishing between strs and "lists" isn't strictly speaking possible, because all of them are iterable
14:36:41 <Alberth> andythenorth: make a difference in some other way
14:37:06 <Alberth> ie in Python you should know what to expect
14:37:21 <andythenorth> could work with known variable names
14:37:26 <andythenorth> or call a different method
14:37:40 <Alberth> the latter is often used
14:38:04 <Alberth> or convert to a kwown structure
14:38:16 <andythenorth> could assume everything is string :P
14:39:01 <Alberth> that's the TCL approach :p
14:50:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: "nmlc warning: "lang/german.lng", line 62: Undefined command "SIGNED"' o_O
14:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all the magic {} stuff should be the same as in english.lng
14:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a simple typo, "{SIGNED WORD}" should be "{SIGNED_WORD}"
15:00:26 <andythenorth> being lazy, I hadn't even opened the file :P
15:00:32 <andythenorth> outsourcing bug fixes :P
15:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, was about time i updated FIRS anyway :p
15:01:03 <peter1138> andythenorth, as if
15:01:20 <Stimrol> I have a "stolen" idea for Game Script that I have not seen anyone make. But I don't have a clue how to make one.
15:01:38 <andythenorth> I have loads of ideas
15:01:44 <andythenorth> if you find a way to make them, let me know :)
15:02:16 <Stimrol> So I should just sit on my idea until I know how to make it :p
15:03:00 <andythenorth> hmm, need to template all my industry tiles.
15:03:50 <Stimrol> I dont have the slightes idea how it works and I don't even know what is the difference between NoGo and NoAi
15:04:08 <Stimrol> + I dont understand the documents :(
15:05:26 <andythenorth> try making 'hello world' in squirrel first
15:05:33 <andythenorth> or use Zuu's starter GS
15:06:15 <Zuu> Stimrol: NoAI is for making AIs. NoGo is for making Game Scripts.
15:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the TutorialGS should be a tutorial for GS as well as a tutorial for the game :p
15:06:56 <Stimrol> andythenorth, the you have it Zuu starter, that is something that could help me, where is that available on the page?
15:07:03 <Zuu> If you want to make a game script, its the NoGo API that you will use. However for historic reasons a lot of documentation on the wiki is written towards AI development.
15:07:15 <andythenorth> Stimrol: in the AI / GS forum
15:07:42 <Zuu> There you got it twice :-)
15:07:55 <Stimrol> thanks, will look at it but only once :)
15:08:51 <Alberth> I doubt you understand it all at the first look :p
15:10:02 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know if the Tutorial GS is a good example on how to write a GS. It use a quite different way of laying out the logic than most other AIs and GSs that I've written. It defines "steps" which are class instances put in an array. Each step know how to perform that step.
15:10:31 <Zuu> So the order of a tutorial is defined in a method that constructs a chapter array composed of all steps.
15:10:52 <Alberth> sounds very complicated as a first tutorial
15:11:04 <Zuu> This is not very useful for most other GSs in my opition and indeed quite compilacted.
15:11:39 <Zuu> If you don't know OOP, you'll be lost directly.
15:11:39 <Stimrol> Alberth, that is so true, first I will extract to openttd/game/ along the library folder and that folder will then include /library and /Minimal GS
15:12:48 <Stimrol> first step in the right direction :)
15:13:04 <Alberth> Even if you do know OO, it is not the first thing you need for understanding a GS; it may be a good approach but then when you write something much larger
15:13:10 <Zuu> You will need to get SuperLib also or change the minimal GS to not use SuperLib.
15:13:55 <Zuu> SuperLib is basically a large collection of methods that I've collected over a few years. Most of it I've written myself, but there are also a few contributions from others.
15:14:59 <Zuu> If you don't want it. Remove line 22-30 and then replace the Log.Info calls to GSLog.Info and remove the last parameter.
15:16:11 <andythenorth> yeah, not 27 hours in the day
15:16:21 <Zuu> When you get SuperLib, check which version you download and update main.nut of your GS to use that version.
15:16:25 <Stimrol> is this sentence on the forum outdated --> SuperLib is not useful for players unless it is a dependency for an AI you want to use.
15:16:47 <Zuu> In general I don't break backward compatibility, but if I do, it is mentioned in the forum thread.
15:17:06 <Zuu> No, that is still accurate.
15:17:15 <Zuu> Or well, it should mention GS to.
15:17:55 <Zuu> Click on the count to get the last version. Click on their name to go to their website/thread.
15:17:55 <Stimrol> My first thought was, I am not going to think anything about AI only about goal, so should I skip SuperLib
15:18:31 <Zuu> Ok, I'll update the first post of SuperLib thread to also mention GS
15:18:32 <Stimrol> Yes I clicked the name and found this :)
15:18:33 <Alberth> you can, but it may mean you have to write some more code yourself
15:19:19 <Stimrol> thanks, how know maybe I will succeed
15:23:12 <Zuu> SuperLib is a middle layer above the API. If you want full control, leave it out and write all code yourself ontop of the API. My main motivation for creating SuperLib was that I at that time maintained 3 different scripts and didn't want to fix the same bug 3 times. As a bonus others can reuse that code too. :-)
15:24:12 <Stimrol> Two questions: 1. do I extract superlib to the same location? 2. So I don't do something that is out there, but maybe not available. Is there a script to end game after some town is maybe 20.000 population?
15:24:40 * drac_boy would be curious about that second question too :)
15:25:30 <Zuu> SuperLib go to game/library
15:25:51 <Alberth> there is no overview of game scripts at the wiki yet
15:25:52 <Zuu> You can fetch it via "online content" from OpenTTD if you want or download it manually.
15:26:43 <Zuu> About a year ago I had the idea of doing something about the AI-focus on the wiki, but I've left that behind for now.
15:26:49 <Stimrol> Zuu, probably best, then it will go to the right place
15:27:22 <Stimrol> but I am guessing the answer is No to my second question, that means I will have to make it :D
15:28:20 <Zuu> Maybe the CityBuilder script have that.. Or CityDomination, but I still doubt it.
15:28:37 <Alberth> perhaps Stimrol or drac_boy can make an overview page?
15:28:42 <Zuu> Both these two scripts have a lot more.
15:29:01 <Stimrol> no either of them, I have checked. I was thinking maybe CityBuilder, but see no settings in it do do this
15:29:26 <Alberth> Zuu: he is at least interested in GS functionality, it seems
15:29:26 <drac_boy> alberth and zuu unless it has anything to do with patch I can't help with writing it sorry :P
15:30:13 <Alberth> hmm, are you sure you're in the right channel then? :D
15:30:28 <Zuu> Stimrol: A second option is to make a patch for one of the three town related GSs available.
15:30:51 <Zuu> Speaking of which, I should upload my almost release ready version 6 of Neighbours are important somewhere.
15:31:37 <Zuu> That being said, a simple GS that do just that may have its role too and may be useful for you as a starting point.
15:32:42 <Zuu> Hmm, actually there is also City Growth Limiter which makes it 4 town related GSes :-)
15:33:14 <Stimrol> yes I might learn something from it. But I was always looking at CityBuilder to see if it would include it.
15:33:20 <drac_boy> alberth...action 0 nfo would be relative to openttd too isn't it? ;)
15:34:13 <Alberth> nfo has too many numbers for me :(
15:35:25 <Alberth> I can do assembly language just fine, but pure numbers... I get constantly lost where a new primitive starts
15:36:58 <Flygon> You could make a carrier out of the Mega Drive :D
15:38:33 <Alberth> 68K was easy, loads of registers :)
15:39:15 <Alberth> nice 32 bit registers....
15:43:21 <Flygon> I really do like 68k myself
15:43:28 <Flygon> Very easy to work with
15:43:45 <Flygon> Which didn't help my impression of Java when the Uni shoved me into a course involving it
15:47:34 <Alberth> Java is multi-platform, which is about the only thing it got right
15:49:01 <Alberth> otherwise, it is mainly just very old and stuck in its way of doing things
15:49:19 * drac_boy actually runs java alot tbh
15:49:42 <Alberth> running is fine, just don't write programs in it :p
15:55:51 <Stimrol> Java made mister Notch filty rich
15:56:47 <Stimrol> zuu, can MinimalGS be loaded unchanged, and does it do anything at all?
15:57:12 <Zuu> If you have SuperLib 24 for NoGo, it can be loaded unchanged
15:57:30 <Zuu> It should appear in the list of installed GSes even if you don't have SuperLib 24.
15:57:45 <Zuu> You can just change main.nut to refer to version 27 instead of version 24.
16:04:33 <Zuu> IIRC, Minimal GS will display a news message saying "Hello World" upon starting a new single player game.
16:05:00 <Stimrol> ok then it seems to be working :)
16:05:15 <Zuu> It will also print some lines to the log. (which you find under the help menu to the very right of the main toolbar)
16:05:20 <Stimrol> now to start the changes and do my brakeing of it
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16:05:50 <Zuu> To enhance the AI/GS debug window you may want to set gui.ai_developer_tools to 1.
16:06:24 <Stimrol> API compatability script not found and game saved is in the log now
16:06:37 <Zuu> This is done either by "set gui.ai_developer_tools 1" in the console but preferable by editing opentttd.cfg when OpenTTD is not running to make it persistant.
16:09:50 <Stimrol> is it so I can pause it and more
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16:10:56 <Zuu> Stimrol: How do you mean by pause it?
16:12:11 <Stimrol> it added some "pause on" line then I can type something there
16:14:48 <Zuu> Yep, type a search string there. Whenever a log message from the GS matches this search string, the script will be paused.
16:15:10 <Zuu> Both the game + script get paused. But you can then unpause just the game but not the GS if you want.
16:15:49 <Zuu> There is also the option to call GSController.Break("my message") to trigger the script+game to get paused.
16:16:12 <Zuu> This also only work if the mentioned _tools setting is enabled.
16:16:52 <Stimrol> yes the ai_developer_tools
16:16:54 <Zuu> It might be that GSController.Break need 1.3 beta or a nightly to work.
16:17:09 <Stimrol> I am useing that one, thanks to my translation work earlier
16:17:34 <Zuu> Regarding the missing compatibility layer, that is a bug in our scripts to build OpenTTD distributions. I currently look at fixing that. :-)
16:21:04 <Zuu> andythenorth: Yes a NewGRF author that also makes GSes would be cool :-)
16:21:16 <andythenorth> well there's frosch123 ;)
16:21:20 <Stimrol> the program chrashed if I change the version to like 0.1
16:21:38 <Zuu> Where did you set this version?
16:21:58 <Zuu> 1. Only integer versions are allowed
16:22:12 <Zuu> 2. However, OpenTTD shouln't crash on a such error, which is a bug.
16:22:26 <andythenorth> Zuu: if I get FIRS, FISH 2, and BANDIT done...maybe GS
16:22:27 <Stimrol> no not chrash, sorry error
16:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ship vs. tunnel clipping: maybe the method i used in CETS could be used? i.e. just cut off some parts of the sprite when approaching a tunnel entrance?
16:23:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: proposing ship tunnels? o_O
16:23:13 <andythenorth> max height for ships? :P
16:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> not me... just picking up on a discussion
16:23:29 <Zuu> Stimrol: Just get over point releses and stick to integer version numbers. :-)
16:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not trying to solve "ship fits in the tunnel", just "ship doesn't stick out of the ground behind the tunnel entrance"
16:24:17 <Stimrol> ok explains the versioning of like CityBuilder 49
16:24:58 <Zuu> Some just use the revision number from their version control as the scipt version.
16:25:51 <Zuu> I increase it by one at each release, but as said, some may jump several numbers from one release to another because they have made several commits to their version control system.
16:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ship can [not] go through tunnels might become an action0 flag
16:27:41 <andythenorth> gives something back to canal boats eh?
16:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "Exercise 2.4: write LOOP-programs for the functions in exercise 1.1 and 2.2"... well this should be fun
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16:34:59 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Are you taking a programming course?
16:35:29 <andythenorth> bridge limits on ships?
16:36:02 <Zuu> "This ship weight to much to go over bridge"
16:36:34 <drac_boy> zuu even subtracting the water weight? ;)
16:36:37 <andythenorth> hmm, why am I dicking around templating action 0 props in for industry cargos
16:36:39 <andythenorth> could use the cb
16:36:47 <andythenorth> does the cb handle the tile as well? :o
16:36:50 <andythenorth> that would be a faux pas :P
16:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: no, i'm preparing for exam in recusion theory
16:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the "loop language" is a very primitive language
16:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> designed to represent primitive recursive functions
16:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you have the commands "INPUT X", "OUTPUT X", "X=0", "X=X+1", "X=Y" and "LOOP X"
16:39:19 <Zuu> drac_boy: Oh right, didn't think about that part of physics. :-D
16:39:26 <Stimrol> I am full of stupid questions, how do I look like into GSText and for example find STR_HELLO_WORLD just to see how this works
16:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause> where INPUT must be the first command and OUTPUT the last
16:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> now write "f(x,y) = x-y" with that ;)
16:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ("LOOP X: A; END" repeats A X times)
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16:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so e.g. x+y would be: "INPUT X,Y; LOOP X: Y=Y+1; END; OUTPUT Y"
16:44:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r24890 /trunk (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-01-06 16:44:15 UTC)
16:44:22 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Distribute GS compat_<version>.nut with OpenTTD
16:45:07 <Zuu> Stimrol: See lang/english.txt
16:45:56 <Zuu> The content of that file uses the same format as translations in OpenTTD which you should be familar with ;-)
16:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the funny thing about ship weight is that a ship weighs exactly as much as the water it disperses, so the weight on a bridge (or a ship lift) doesn't change with the ship entering
16:46:20 <Zuu> Just that there is no web frontend for doing translations for Game Scripts.
16:47:04 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Yep, I realized that after drac_boy commented on my wrong logic.
16:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: you just have to make sure the water level doesn't change much
16:48:15 <Zuu> The only added weight to the bridge is if you use a crane to drop a ship into it, then the water that is dispressed will mostly end up in the canal, but a slight bit of it could add to raising the water level of the bridge.
16:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it could rain, or dry up, so you need some kind of balance mechanism for the whole channel
16:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in a documentation about the ship lift in Niederfinow they said they can operate on a variation up to 4cm, beyond that they have to stop
16:50:36 <drac_boy> logic reminds me of Spock
16:50:41 <drac_boy> 'illogical yet true...hm'
16:51:05 <andythenorth> we should give GS capability to 'build' water
16:51:10 <andythenorth> simulating occasional floods
16:51:44 <drac_boy> swamps would need a new kind of tile anyway
16:51:55 <drac_boy> not buildable dry land but not sailable water neither
16:52:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes we need that
16:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well... statemachines... :)
16:52:27 <Zuu> ... and triggering a santa claus effect vehicle that fly over the game. :-p
16:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: disaster vehicle :)
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16:57:28 <Zuu> When do we get NewEffectVehicles or NewDisasters?
16:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> after roadtypes and custombridgeheads ;)
16:58:09 <Zuu> so before NewGRF airports :-)
16:58:21 <andythenorth> and maybe before or after vehicle Views
16:58:28 <frosch123> i would currently put NewEffectVehicles way before all of that :p
16:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: potentially disasters also need statemachines? :)
16:58:59 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i dropped the idea for statemachines for effect vehicles :p
16:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so just put an animation state and let the grf figure out the rest?
17:00:52 <andythenorth> 'just' force one spritegroup per animation frame
17:01:58 <frosch123> "spritegroup" is of no use; for samegames you need something persistent
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17:03:55 <lemming> in my towns status i read that the town doesn't grow
17:04:10 <lemming> do you have any hint?
17:04:25 <andythenorth> use the cheat menu
17:05:06 <lemming> yes, i want it to grow
17:05:07 <Stimrol> Zuu, hehe who am I trying to fool
17:05:13 <andythenorth> oops, misread the question sorry :P
17:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the primitive loop-language
17:10:36 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: It will output "X-1". Eg if you enter X:=5; Y := 7; it will then output X = 4
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17:10:52 <Zuu> Assuming "Loop X" means to iterate X times
17:11:09 <Zuu> Y is never used from what I can see.
17:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and the LOOP Y will calculate X=X-1 Y times
17:11:47 <frosch123> yeah, but it only handles non-negative stuff
17:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is intended :)
17:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> functions are |N^k->|N
17:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the lecture actually uses - with a dot above it, to explicitly differentiate it from the "normal" -
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17:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now the interesting bits: quot(x,y) = x/y (rounded down) if y>0, 0 else; prim(x) = 1 if x is prime, 0 else and p(x) = (x+1)st prime number (p(0)=2, p(1)=3, etc.)
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17:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> written in this language :)
17:19:05 <frosch123> luckily performance does not seem to matter
17:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but later in the lecture the number of nested loops does :)
17:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the funniest theorem in that lecture: "if you can calculate the runtime of the function, the rest of the program can be run with two nested loops"
17:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone have an interpreter for this language? :)
17:55:57 <frosch123> write a awk script to transform the stuff into a awk script
17:56:23 <frosch123> hmm, don't you have procedure calls?
17:56:38 <frosch123> and equal comparators?
17:56:50 <frosch123> why are you not using your earlier sub in quot/rem?
17:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not defined, but of course one could add it :)
17:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the "lazy solution" :)
18:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "small_font = C:\WIN98SE\fonts\Tahoma.ttf" *shudder*
18:04:56 <Alberth> a few sed lines to transform to python? :)
18:11:42 <frosch123> i used that windows version longer than any other
18:11:57 <frosch123> hmm, though i am not sure how long i used 3.11
18:14:26 <frosch123> hmm, i guess win 3.11 does not count... there was almost nothing which needed it
18:16:25 <frosch123> though it was buggy
18:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you needed win3.1 if you wanted to run north&south at sensible speed
18:17:02 <frosch123> hmm, or was reversi only in 3.0? and was removed in 3.1 because of its buggyness?
18:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had a reversi game in win3.1
18:17:28 <frosch123> yeah, then it was .30
18:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i had wzebra (or so) a lot later
18:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and i had a "othello" dos game
18:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> did civ2 run under win3.1, or was that win95 already?
18:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to run it in wine, but it had sound-scratches and crashed quickly
18:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i broke my civ1 trying to patch it with an english-language patch
18:21:25 <__ln__> i ran civ2 in Win-OS/2
18:21:26 <frosch123> hmm, i wrote a unit editor for civ1
18:21:54 <frosch123> i think i replaced the militia with a intercontinental with range 255
18:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i modified the colonization data files a lot
18:22:33 <frosch123> do kids still do such stuff with today's games?
18:22:43 <frosch123> or do they only cheat in online games?
18:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there are millions of user mods for civ4 and civ5
18:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> like "remove the one-unit-per-tile restriction of civ5" and stuff
18:23:40 <frosch123> hmm, true.. the games got interfaces for extensions
18:24:41 <Stimrol> I think this goal script would be so much easier if there was a example script putting as Goal to arrive at first station and make that goal show in "current goal"
18:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't tried modding civ5 yet, but in civ4 you had 3 levels of mods, xml-mods, python-mods and c++-mods
18:25:26 <Stimrol> my hairs are starting to fall off by tearing it
18:37:48 <Stimrol> If I ever manage to do this my first GS will be named "example goal script"
18:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever your first GS is, you will want to throw it into the bin and rewrite it from scratch before showing anyone :p
18:44:02 <Stimrol> no I will be so proud that I could do one, place HQ, vehicle arrives at first station
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24891 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-06 18:45:33 UTC)
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 3 changes by chenwt0315
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> esperanto - 37 changes by ernie13
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> icelandic - 107 changes by Stimrol
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 41 changes by Phreeze
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> serbian - 59 changes by voodoo84
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> thai - 7 changes by kenny
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19:19:57 <Stimrol> are there still error is the language files, asking because there is no new trunk showing up on homepage?
19:23:11 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
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19:31:41 <Supercheese> So for bridges-above-stations, if a grf "incorrectly" allows bridges over a station tile that is "too high", I wonder what kind of sprite errors would result...
19:31:55 <Supercheese> i.e. bridge through a building
19:34:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24892 trunk/Makefile.bundle.in (2013-01-06 19:34:13 UTC)
19:34:20 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24890): Missing mkdir
19:36:34 <peter1138> nothing major really
19:36:47 <peter1138> the sprite sorter's done an amazing job
19:37:08 <Supercheese> Yep, bridge-through-building
19:37:25 * Supercheese realizes he's never used an aqueduct, ever
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19:40:39 <frosch123> Stimrol: nightly will likely take another 23 mintues
19:42:55 <Stimrol> frosch123, was just wondering because of some errors in icelandic last night, thinking if they where still there
19:43:32 <frosch123> no, currently there are no translation errors
19:46:38 <andythenorth> herp, just when CHIPS has no open issues, peter1138 goes and extends the station spec :P
19:47:19 <andythenorth> it's like a game
19:47:32 <andythenorth> just when I get close to 'done' on a grf, something new comes along :P
19:48:28 <Supercheese> Stuff just keeps getting better and better
19:49:26 <andythenorth> isn't this sticky in Suggestions forum totally pointless? "Use OpenTTD Wiki for commonly asked for suggestions"
19:49:34 <andythenorth> it's a dead thread linking to a dead page
19:49:47 <frosch123> every year someone updated the wiki
19:50:20 <andythenorth> now they updated it to empty :)
19:51:02 <andythenorth> is linked and dead
19:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be some really ancient link if it still contains index.php
19:51:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's just the link
19:51:20 <frosch123> remove the "index.php/" part
19:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> just delete that part and try again
19:52:04 <andythenorth> hmm, I can't edit that post - not a mod :P
19:52:05 <frosch123> but yeah, pm should fix the links :)
19:52:22 <frosch123> but otoh, noone complained :p
19:52:56 <andythenorth> how funny, having a meaningless 'progress' page :)
19:53:10 <andythenorth> it's a bit like a long table of public lies :)
19:53:37 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you see the "new title screen" suggestion in that list? :p
19:53:45 <Supercheese> You've accurately described 'progressivism', andy
19:56:11 <Supercheese> " 1.1.0: There is no idea what is going to be in 1.1.0. "
19:56:19 <Alberth> I like how things in trunk are not removed from the suggested features :p
19:56:32 <andythenorth> erp, I hate wiki format
19:56:41 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd go on a deletion spree
19:56:50 <andythenorth> but that would probably get reverted
19:57:00 <andythenorth> for damaging valuable information
19:57:34 <Alberth> I don't see the value of keeping that old stuff either
19:57:44 <andythenorth> people like kibble
19:57:49 <andythenorth> someone probably finds it comforting
19:57:57 <andythenorth> "omfg you deleted the roadmap, the sky is falling"
19:58:09 <andythenorth> hmm, is there some kind of correct way to delete a whole page?
19:58:15 <Zuu> You could start by atting a note about it being outdated.
19:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't you like 2 weeks late for that? :p
19:58:28 <Zuu> IIRC {Note|My note text|}
19:58:59 <Alberth> Zuu: what good does that do? There are pages out of date for 2 years or more now
20:00:25 <andythenorth> nothing as good as deleting
20:00:28 <Zuu> If you want to keep it for some historic reason. Otherwise, remove them.
20:00:47 <frosch123> there is a difference between historic content and useless content :)
20:00:58 <frosch123> useless content was already useless when it was still up to date
20:01:28 <planetmaker> hm.... I did never notice it in there :-)
20:01:32 <frosch123> i think i even looked up some information on some old settings pages wrt. setting which were removed somewhen ago
20:02:06 <frosch123> so, some old wiki pages are like a svn repository
20:02:30 <Alberth> pages about a gui rewrite? the 32bpp ez pages?
20:02:32 <frosch123> useless pages otoh are useless independent of their age
20:03:22 <Alberth> that cannot be true, its author thought it was important at least
20:04:13 <frosch123> anyway, personally i think removing stuff is never worth the effort
20:04:36 <Alberth> just re-install from scratch :p
20:05:35 <frosch123> [21:03] <Alberth> that cannot be true, its author thought it was important at least <- maybe the author was misinfomred? :)
20:05:50 <frosch123> to give an example: two days ago someone translated the page descibing the difficutly settigns :)
20:06:50 <Alberth> that's making historic content available for a bigger audience :p
20:07:40 <frosch123> Stimrol: nightly is available now btw
20:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well that page is still useful for people using 1.2.3 (current stable)
20:10:47 <V453000> people using 1.2.3 shouldnt exist in the first place
20:11:15 <frosch123> ottd is too complicated, installing newgrf in ttdp is easier, i want to pay someone to update ttdp
20:12:03 <frosch123> peter1138: who did you write that page for?
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20:15:26 <frosch123> i just wonder about the audience
20:15:49 <__ln__> does ottd already implement even most of the stuff that ttdpatch does?
20:17:01 <Alberth> frosch123: haha, reminds me of a window manager that you could configure by changing a source file and re-compiling/restarting :p
20:17:12 <peter1138> there's no low memory version of openttd!
20:17:25 <peter1138> abandoned roads? never knew that existed
20:17:45 <peter1138> restrictive signals
20:17:52 <peter1138> programmable signals (are they don't the same?)
20:17:54 <frosch123> we have a spritecache size setting though
20:18:24 <Rubidium> so... when are they going to upgrade Berlin Tegel airport?
20:18:26 <frosch123> restrictive signals is the useful thing, while programmable signal is the useless thing
20:19:08 <peter1138> i always thought that restrictions would be better placed in waypoints, but that was just me
20:19:23 <peter1138> especially as they already have off-map stuff
20:19:29 <frosch123> the ttdp guys always argue about diagonal tracks :)
20:19:43 <peter1138> Automatic creation of presignal setups
20:19:48 <peter1138> well that's useless
20:19:51 <Zuu> also they would argue about not having enough space for waypoints.
20:20:13 <frosch123> Zuu: ttdp has waypoints; 1xn stations automatically act like waypoints
20:20:30 <frosch123> you cannot have stations with platformlength 1 in ttdp though
20:20:54 <frosch123> otoh, you can have stations up to size 255x255 in ttdp (the whole map), while ottd only allows 64x64
20:21:09 <frosch123> peter1138: afaik 1xn implies non-stop waypoint
20:21:34 <Zuu> I meant that users tend to complain that their junctions infront of their stations are so cramped that they can't fit in a 1 tile waypoint into their layout. At least as soon as someone propose a waypoint solution to any thing ranging from restrictions to counting trains etc.
20:22:14 <frosch123> ah yeah, well maybe the restrictions should jsut apply to station platforms :)
20:22:40 <frosch123> due to pbs there are no signals in front of the platform anyway
20:22:51 <frosch123> so it makes a lot more sense to assign stuff to the platform than to some weird signal
20:24:10 <peter1138> ~25 different town growth controls
20:24:48 <Zuu> We have 4 town related GSes already on bananas.
20:25:03 <andythenorth> I always build PBS signals in front of platforms
20:25:07 <andythenorth> am I doing it wrong? :P
20:25:09 <frosch123> but yes, the town growth settings already annoyed me in 2004 when i was playing ttdp :)
20:25:13 <peter1138> andythenorth, i do too
20:25:22 <andythenorth> there is some voodoo reason I do it
20:25:25 <peter1138> we have one major thing over ttdp
20:25:39 <andythenorth> all they do is bitch no?
20:25:53 <andythenorth> we have people with commit rights
20:25:56 <andythenorth> and some of them are on irc
20:26:00 <andythenorth> is that developers?
20:26:24 <peter1138> anyway i always place signals by stations, cos that's how it always was :p
20:26:28 * andythenorth wonders how non-native-english speakers know when andythenorth is serious and when not :P
20:26:36 <andythenorth> english people have trouble with it
20:27:00 <peter1138> andythenorth, we just always assume you're joking
20:27:14 <peter1138> "i've given up firs"
20:27:18 <andythenorth> our wikipedia entry says NewObjects are not NewGRFs
20:27:29 <andythenorth> I have given up FIRS a few times.
20:27:34 <andythenorth> it's like giving up smoking :P
20:27:39 <andythenorth> only I don't smoke
20:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> does ottd already implement even most of the stuff that ttdpatch does? <-- that depends on your metric i suppose
20:28:26 <Zuu> andythenorth: Ah you mean our wikipedia article. I read it some days ago and noticed the things it got wrong, but didn't feel like correcting it.
20:28:51 <peter1138> andythenorth, fix it
20:29:04 <Superuser> OpenTTD supports extensive modification for both single player and multiplayer games. Modifications come in the form of a "NewGRF" (New Graphics Resource File) and "NewObjects". NewGRFs package both new graphics (2D sprites) and the computer code which describes how the new graphics should be used. Many aspects of the game can be altered by NewGRFs; a NewGRF can introduce a complete new set of vehicles, new industries
20:29:05 <Superuser> and the cargoes they produce, new town buildings, new rail graphics and behaviour, etc. NewObjects are eye-candy that contribute new graphics, but do not include any code that alters any game play. NewGRFs and NewObjects, along with heightmaps, scenarios and custom AIs, can be downloaded and installed using the "BaNaNaS" in-game online content system.[20]
20:29:05 <andythenorth> nah, complaining is easier
20:29:45 <Supercheese> anyone can fix it, no? :P
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20:31:26 <frosch123> why does it have two screenshots?
20:31:53 <Zuu> One for 1.1 and one for 1.2
20:32:31 <Zuu> The someone who added the 1.2 screenshot perhaps didn't felt like removing the old one.
20:32:46 <frosch123> anyway, most fun in that article have always been the cited scientific papers
20:32:50 <frosch123> which are obviously wrong
20:34:49 <Supercheese> Query: the preferred method to "disable" vehicles by parameter is to check if (param_disable == 1) and set "climates_available: NO_CLIMATE;" , yes?
20:35:25 <peter1138> just skip the whole definition :p
20:35:46 <frosch123> no, that causes trouble if there are still built vehicles in the game
20:35:50 <Supercheese> If a user for some dumb reason decides to change the param... yeah that
20:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> so... when are they going to upgrade Berlin Tegel airport? <-- lmao :p
20:38:04 <Zuu> Perhaps NewGRFs should have the same capability as AIs and GSes to define per setting if changing it in-game is allowed or not?
20:38:24 <peter1138> it's a good job that i never write newgrf
20:38:32 <Rubidium> the airport is pretty much over capacity, and there aren't any reasons to believe anything else will solve that congestion issue any time soon
20:39:06 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i don't get it :(
20:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> i always thought that restrictions would be better placed in waypoints, but that was just me <-- i agree, especially with pathsignals often not being in places where you need restrictions, but that brings us back to the proplem that waypoints sometimes don't fit into the layout
20:40:36 <andythenorth> peter1138: lies, you just wrote a lot of CHIPS :P
20:41:48 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i could reinstate my diagonal stations patch
20:41:53 <peter1138> (as waypoints are stations now)
20:41:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah but i got it wrong first :p
20:42:13 <peter1138> in my defense, the spec for advanced layouts is missing from the wiki
20:42:22 <drac_boy> can you use property 21 to call up action2 for something like 'if coal=>0 then use coal else if ore=>0 then use ore else skip' in simple term?
20:42:30 <andythenorth> diagonal stationals ? o_O
20:42:34 <drac_boy> regarding industries
20:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, the short story, Tegel was supposed to be closed last summer (or the summer before that), but the new airport (near schönefeld) was not ready
20:42:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, "i've got a patch for that"
20:43:02 <andythenorth> who had stations on slopes? Wolf01 ?
20:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so now everybody laughs about berlin not managing to build an airport
20:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> like Hamburg doesn't manage to build a philarmony
20:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> or Stuttgart doesn't manage to build a train station
20:44:11 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I know, but statistically that airport will never open. Each time they push the "open date" by more than the time that has passed since the previous push
20:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and the next one will be München trying to build an S-Bahn tunnel :)
20:44:37 <Supercheese> Oh jeez, vocabulary fail: what's the term for a link to a lower part of the same page, e.g. page.php#link
20:44:50 <peter1138> that was r2673, btw
20:45:18 <drac_boy> supercheese, anchors .. but I really hate them...breaks navigation not to mention that href="#" is invalid as well
20:45:19 <peter1138> +static const uint32 _reachable_tracks[4] = { 0x10091009, 0x00160016, 0x05200520, 0x2A002A00, };
20:45:24 <peter1138> i really wrote that :p
20:45:31 <peter1138> i wonder what it meant
20:45:37 <Supercheese> so, "anchor link"?
20:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: don't we have functions for that?
20:45:59 <Supercheese> "internal anchor link"?
20:46:01 <__ln__> i think Tegel is quite nice, except their lack of rail connection
20:46:13 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, not in r2673
20:46:23 <drac_boy> href="javascript:void" is more valid but some people wouldn't listen tho
20:46:30 <frosch123> 4 digit revisions :)
20:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: tegel was planned to get another terminal mirrored to the one it has, and that plan included a subway station. but it was never built
20:46:52 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, back then the map array was touched directly all over the place, for example
20:47:10 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think so; I remember there being * 0x101 all over the code. This is more like * 0x10001
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20:47:59 <peter1138> that same data is duplicated in station_cmd & train_cmd :D
20:48:02 <Rubidium> and both TXL and SXF are a nightmare to get to; TXL by public transport, SXF by plane
20:48:18 <drac_boy> doing ok supermop..just wishing I could understand property 21 yet but :p
20:48:55 <peter1138> hmm, i added 6 new station tile types
20:49:03 <peter1138> so i guess i catered for 2 tiles on 1 track too
20:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well schönefeld was supposed to take over all links from tegel, plus the ones it has now, plus some epsilon by becoming the central airport for airberlin
20:49:56 <Rubidium> like I need two busses to get from the plane to a train/tram/subway for TXL
20:50:02 <peter1138> i wonder how those newgrf varactions would cope, wanting platform length etc
20:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think there's a direct shuttle bus somewhere
20:51:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if only it was... but first I need a shuttle bus for literally 100 meter from the aircraft to the terminal...
20:51:45 <__ln__> there's a direct bus from the Zoologischer Garten and, i think also Hauptbahnhof.
20:52:02 <Rubidium> peter1138: what about platforms with infinite length?
20:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: must be a bad landing spot (or terminal C or something). usually you'd dock directly at the central terminal with a gangway
20:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i never actually went from or to tegel, only ever picked people up there
20:53:20 <Rubidium> it's the case for 100% of the landings there
20:53:47 <frosch123> peter1138: the platforms in 2 are quite long :)
20:54:02 <peter1138> sprite sorting those diagonal parts was quirky i tell you
20:54:06 <peter1138> frosch123, somewhat :)
20:54:18 <peter1138> frosch123, or very short, cos, you know, 90° bends
20:54:26 <__ln__> i've flown twice from tegel, though never landed there
20:54:32 <planetmaker> how old are those screenshots, peter1138 ?
20:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: circular platforms don't seem to be a very bright idea :p
20:55:11 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'd reckon the pre-Rubidium era ;)
20:55:30 <peter1138> artwork was sponsored by Born_Acorn
20:55:54 <peter1138> back then we had hackykid's pbs
20:56:42 <peter1138> oh god, my original bridges over tracks patch
20:57:00 <peter1138> what a mess that was
20:57:22 <supermop> what's this diagonal station nostalgia about?
20:57:41 <frosch123> hmm, i remember some merge-unmerge-bridge-over-everything-drama
20:58:17 <peter1138> tron did bridges-over-everything in a branch
20:58:34 <peter1138> it got finished off and merged
20:58:43 <peter1138> then he complained, but i don't think it was unmerged
20:59:00 <frosch123> it was merged, unmerged, and merged again a month later or so
20:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it was actually ripped out again because of tron complaining that Celestar went ahead and merged it before it was "ready"
21:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that was pre-0.5
21:00:32 <peter1138> (is not that, but is c++)
21:00:50 <peter1138> tron hated the makefile rewrite too
21:01:19 <glx> he hated a lot of things :)
21:01:21 <peter1138> (i jest, i liked tron)
21:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually have a port of the bridge branch to the miniin
21:01:34 <glx> like the commit message style
21:03:22 <peter1138> tron loved simplifying code and hated me added newgrf stuff
21:05:15 <frosch123> 70 commits in 5 days :)
21:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that thread is lovely... people being so excited about a feature that is just "wait, that was ever different?"
21:07:24 <Superuser> ANYONE HERE BUILT THEIR OWN PC?
21:08:04 <peter1138> anyone here _not_ build their own pc?
21:08:07 <drac_boy> YES, WHAT YOU WANT KNOW?
21:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i made a 4-bit ALU in VHDL once, does that count?
21:08:38 <frosch123> well, ok, it depends on what level you build it :)
21:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> what level of detail for "build" do you expect? :p
21:09:07 <drac_boy> supercheese btw I hope its not about itx systems tho
21:09:43 <peter1138> 2 looks more like a road junction heh
21:09:55 <drac_boy> superuser tbh I would throw out all six lines there :/
21:10:21 <Superuser> why you hating drac_boy?
21:10:26 <frosch123> oh, it took 6 months to remerge it
21:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so you didn't actually solve the problem of the foundation showing through
21:10:39 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i did, just not there
21:10:56 <Zuu> Superuser: It all depends on what your budget is and what you plan to use it for.
21:11:02 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it's fixed in 3
21:11:04 <drac_boy> superuser you want know what I have built several times so far which is still inexpensive but better than that vague list of yours?
21:11:38 <Superuser> I was careful to select hardware from linux-friendly vendors
21:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but it has no fence there :)
21:11:44 <peter1138> frosch123, that was a long time, wow
21:11:53 <Superuser> and relatively cutting-edge
21:12:05 <drac_boy> superuser tbh 'linux-friend' means nothing
21:12:08 <Zuu> Superuser: Do you plan to play any game than need 3D performance?
21:12:08 <Superuser> but still quite cheap and will last me a while, will be fine for most games
21:12:17 <peter1138> geforce 400 series (very vague)
21:12:21 <Terkhen> Superuser: if you plan to use it for modern games I don't think that a geforce 400 is going to last for "a while", for certain definitions of "a while"... if you don't, you may consider to save some bucks by just using the graphics card included with the processor
21:12:47 <peter1138> for modern games, an i3 isn't either
21:12:51 <Zuu> If not playing 3D, don't spend money on that, and put that money elsewhere.
21:12:58 <Superuser> oh no, of course not, I get along with minimum specs on any game
21:13:06 <Superuser> I've played at 10-20fps for most games for years
21:13:12 <Superuser> always had cheap PCs
21:13:20 <Terkhen> I guess that you can call nvidia's binary blob driver "linux friendly" in comparison with other manufacturers, but I wouldn't call it linux friendly
21:13:33 <Superuser> well, unfortunately they provide very good drivers
21:13:42 <Superuser> that is a downside though Terkhen, I agree
21:13:51 <Terkhen> yeah... good drivers, except when you are stuck with optimus
21:13:57 <Superuser> ATI is no better though
21:14:03 <drac_boy> 2.8ghz, quadro graphics, 16gb ram (with space to double that in future), matx board, etc .. thats the short of my spec I've done for a while
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21:14:24 <Terkhen> google linus' "f*** you nvidia" for details about nvidia's linux friendliness WRT optimus
21:14:27 <Superuser> as for purchasing RAM... does price matter?
21:14:36 <Superuser> I follow Linux news very closely Terkhen, thanks
21:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: the (AMD) onboard graphics of my Gigabyte board work perfectly fine unless you're into "ZOMG FRAMERATE" shooters
21:14:47 <peter1138> quadro is pointless
21:15:07 <Terkhen> okay, I was just surprised about that :P
21:15:43 <Zuu> additionally, not having a high-end graphics card will save on your electricity bill.
21:15:44 <Superuser> I am though Eddi, 'arena shooter' is my middle name ;)
21:15:58 <Superuser> actually the reason I went for i3 is because it is relatively low poer
21:16:47 <Zuu> Though, my i7 probably contribute a fair bit to my 90 watts idle. :-)
21:16:51 <peter1138> the motherboard, HDD and GPU will still consume tons of power
21:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what sort of problem do you expect from ARM based devices then?
21:17:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, ARM machines with PCI are hideously expensive
21:17:25 <drac_boy> peter1138 actually I find the quadro too necessary btw
21:17:25 <Zuu> (my watt-o-meter is on another computer currently)
21:17:53 <peter1138> what do you do that requires a quadro?
21:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what you need a PCI for then? :)
21:18:15 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> who had stations on slopes? Wolf01 ? <- yes, was me
21:18:17 <Superuser> bro you serious, how much do Quadro cost?
21:18:22 <Superuser> this is professional grade
21:18:24 <drac_boy> peter1138 graphic works at times which pretty much calls for opengl 4 support
21:18:46 <drac_boy> Superuser $137+tax for this card
21:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> stations-on-slopes would be useful for roadvehicles
21:19:03 <Terkhen> yes, I remember that patch :)
21:19:08 <drac_boy> intel still is so far behind in anything thats not 2D graphics .... so meh to them >_<
21:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> not so much for trains
21:19:21 <Superuser> but are drivers as good for these? Esp. on Linux?
21:19:24 <frosch123> hmm, good point, that patch should be in my bookmark list
21:19:48 <Superuser> and why are these not mainstream? What differentiates them?
21:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "things to review 5 years later"?
21:20:02 <peter1138> Superuser, they're not necessary
21:20:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, i have 120 bookmarks to such stuff :)
21:20:10 <peter1138> hardware wise, they're the same
21:20:31 <peter1138> they just have a bit set somewhere inside the chip that says "hey, i'm a quadro, not a pansy geforce"
21:20:31 <Superuser> drac_boy would beg to differ ;)
21:20:52 <peter1138> then nvidia make the drivers give you more features depending on that bit
21:21:26 <peter1138> "What differentiates Quadro from GeForce is that GeForce usually has its dual precision floating point performance severely limited, e.g. to 1/4 or 1/8 of that of the Quadro/Tesla GPUs. This limitation is purely artificial and imposed on solely to differentiate the gamer/enthusiast segment from the professional segment. "
21:21:42 <drac_boy> Superuser what do you mean by 'beg to differ'? I did actually pay $137+tax *off the shelf* for my quadro card
21:22:21 <peter1138> Superuser, like the old IBM printer trick
21:22:38 <drac_boy> peter1138 if that was the case then how come many of the sub-$200 geforce card did not even have at least opengl 3.2 at all yet in contrast the cheap quadro had 4.0+ plus some cl?
21:22:43 <drac_boy> just pointing that out
21:22:55 <Superuser> all of 400 series is 4.0+
21:23:33 <peter1138> drac_boy, purely drivers
21:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they manufacture one kind of chip, and just disable some feature, because it would be way more expensive to design and manufacutre multiple chips
21:24:21 <andythenorth> do people build their own computers :o
21:24:29 * frosch123 only bought his quadro because it had a technical spec at all; compared to non-pro products which had some stupid advertisement text that said nothing
21:24:31 <drac_boy> peter1138 nope its not
21:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago you still had to soldier around a resistor or so to "upgrade" your card
21:24:44 <drac_boy> even the software mod can't do anything about hard chip limits
21:24:46 <peter1138> drac_boy, really it is
21:25:00 <drac_boy> its not like the radeon where some actually were soft-blocked
21:25:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: everyone should have at least once in a live assembled a computer from individual compontents
21:25:02 <Superuser> fuck me, quadros are expensive
21:25:22 <frosch123> just like everyone should at least once have installed lfs, or at least gentoo
21:25:33 <peter1138> Superuser, yeah, a cheap quadro will be comparable to an older generation cheap geforce
21:25:36 <drac_boy> frosch123 I've put together custom builds too often to bother counting anymore heh
21:25:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: I have assembled them from monitor, keyboard, mouse and base unit
21:25:44 <andythenorth> that works for me :P
21:25:49 <Superuser> honestly, looking at the specs, there is little difference between that and a consumer card
21:26:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: does mac even count as computer?
21:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have a whole different attachment to the computer if you held every component in your hands individually :)
21:26:23 <Superuser> what do you do with CUDA when almost no games use it or OpenCL?
21:26:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: resp. aren't mac assembled from monitor+keyboard?
21:26:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: I mean those dell things :P
21:26:37 <Superuser> only mathematical/physics calculations and other such boring things
21:26:39 <andythenorth> the ones that run windows
21:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: you write your own massively parallelized programs
21:27:06 <glx> andythenorth: the things full of 'custom' hardware ?
21:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> like, you could port openttd's vehicle movement code to CUDA
21:27:32 <andythenorth> I have even plugged in cables
21:27:48 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, if you disabled collisions
21:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: and multiplayer, and ... :p
21:28:34 <Terkhen> a friend of mine is doing some algorithm implementations in CUDA
21:28:47 <drac_boy> superuser to be honest with you the last time I tried use the intel graphics or even a single HD4870 .. neither of these could do do graphic rendering anywhere half as well as the quadro card did ... so rather than trying to explain that failing limit to users I'll rather provide them a real 3D gpu card
21:29:12 <frosch123> i once implemented fourier transformation with the pixel shader on my old geforce
21:29:26 <frosch123> but the cpu outperformed it vastly by using fft instead of ft
21:29:31 <drac_boy> not sure why the HD4870 just couldn't do it either with windows or linux but meh don't want bother docking money to find out
21:29:33 <Superuser> I don't own a 3D workstation... I just wanna play some games :(
21:29:42 <frosch123> (while fft is not suitable for a graphics card)
21:29:48 <Terkhen> WRT OpenTTD... given that we do not do multicore even for a small number of cores, I would like to know who can do it for stuff like 200 cores :P
21:29:50 <Superuser> and I certainly won't be using integrated intel graphics
21:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so... why do they call it "simple iteration" and "primitive recursion" if the stuff gets so complicated.. :p
21:30:28 <Superuser> also the power consumption on those bastards is through the roof
21:30:34 <frosch123> Superuser: how many screens to you want to use?
21:30:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I hold all the components in my hands in aggregate :P
21:31:32 <frosch123> do non-pro product support more than 2 screens meanwhile?
21:31:45 <peter1138> i think someone tried impulse convolution in cuda
21:32:04 <peter1138> it worked, but there was a bottleneck getting te data to-from the card
21:32:12 <Superuser> I use a stacking desktop, no biggie ;)
21:33:22 <drac_boy> which motherboard would you have picked?
21:33:41 <drac_boy> for me its been the DH77EB for some time, apparently can't find any second choice that equivals to it
21:34:01 <Superuser> drac_boy calm down, you have very stron opinions, we understand that
21:34:16 <drac_boy> Superuser nah I don't...I don't build for myself :p
21:34:44 <Superuser> I already have a case, has to be good ol' ATX
21:34:58 <drac_boy> you going use 4+ cards then superuser?
21:35:08 <drac_boy> otherwise atx is sometimes moot but mmm your call :)
21:35:41 <peter1138> don't remember what cards i've got
21:36:08 <Superuser> so uhh... anyone know any good atx motherboards?
21:36:19 <Superuser> or 'mainboards' (the PC word for it)
21:36:33 <peter1138> 8800gt, firewire, ice1712... can't be only 3
21:37:03 <peter1138> hmm, guess it is, took the sblive out
21:37:55 <Superuser> anyway... last questoin (I promise)... how many watts over should the PSU go
21:38:05 <Superuser> you should leave a margin of safety, right?
21:38:29 <drac_boy> I guess a small reason I've liked the DH77EB as well tho is because it still has one onboard uart header, saves the cost of a hard serial card which aren't exactly 'cheap'
21:38:51 <Superuser> do you actually have one?
21:38:55 <drac_boy> superuser it varies from 150W to 750W depending on the gpu and number of drives mainly
21:39:14 <peter1138> Supercheese, iirc 500W should be plenty with "only" 1 GPU
21:39:32 <glx> ofc a good one, not a cheap one
21:40:01 <peter1138> got a usb-serial converter for those very rare times that i ever need a serial port
21:40:03 <drac_boy> glx yeah antec, zalman, corsair, etc :)
21:40:22 <drac_boy> peter1138 how do you turn +5V into -12V tho?
21:40:25 <Superuser> last time I used one was 12 years ago, feels old
21:40:27 <SpComb> the world runs on FTDI USB-serials
21:40:29 <drac_boy> seeing usb port only gives 5V alone
21:40:36 <glx> I have a serial on my board
21:40:39 <Superuser> oh yeah anyone have an SSD?
21:40:43 <andythenorth> what is serial please? :P
21:40:47 <Superuser> Do you notice a difference in speed?
21:40:56 <peter1138> drac_boy, maybe it has a dc-dc converter in it
21:41:37 <drac_boy> mind you the DH77EB system (even with the quadro card) has been running off a 200W dc supply kit for a few different users for a while now with no complains at all
21:42:00 <andythenorth> Superuser: my laptop stock drive was 5400, ymmv
21:42:23 <glx> andythenorth: laptop often have slow drives
21:43:16 <andythenorth> stock 5400 SATA spinning glass disks: 31MB/s write, 32MB/s read. Crucial v4 SSD 219MB/s write, 514MB/s read
21:43:39 <andythenorth> so yeah, I noticed the difference
21:43:43 <Superuser> they crap out very quickly though, and I'd be afraid
21:44:13 <Superuser> so you need to buy a new one every 5 years on a journalled filesystem? Fuck that
21:44:28 <Terkhen> I only notice the diference when booting and copying a lot of data
21:44:37 <andythenorth> horses courses, I buy a new computer every year or so anyway
21:44:42 <supermop> i'd want to buy a new hard drive every 5 years anyway
21:44:55 * Terkhen would never assume that one of his HD is going to last more than 2 years
21:45:01 <supermop> sooner than 5 really
21:45:06 <Terkhen> if it does, good, but I wouldn't count on it :P
21:45:07 <__ln__> anyone not watching 'Breaking Bad', the tv series?
21:45:13 <drac_boy> andythenorth I doubt you want know how old my primary computer is then :)
21:45:22 <andythenorth> drac_boy: good call
21:45:42 * Terkhen would not like spoilers, at all
21:45:52 <supermop> my old vaio has a 7 year old hdd that works fine, but i consider that the exception, not the rule
21:45:52 <drac_boy> andythenorth or do you? :)
21:45:54 <__ln__> a very good tv series, and not only in my opinion.
21:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we've had such discussion before
21:47:11 <drac_boy> I only replaced its hd a few months ago because of capacity crunch, the replacement hd was supposed to be non-pulled new one so may be a good another several years of keeping the computer :)
21:48:32 <drac_boy> 73.6gb for about $42+shipping, not too bad
21:49:10 <supermop> why just define hight level for stations? why not for houses and newobject too
21:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> what? don't you get like 10 times as much space for twice the money?
21:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: objects already have it
21:49:42 <supermop> tall enough bridge should go over anything
21:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> industries and houses probably reuse the map bits for something else
21:50:10 <supermop> should bridges also have this property for themselves...?
21:50:30 <peter1138> ah, scsi harddrives
21:50:59 <peter1138> supermop, height of bridge isn't a bridge property
21:51:15 <__ln__> anyway, this Breaking Bad is about an overqualified high school chemistry teacher who starts manufacturing drugs. (and that was not a spoiler)
21:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-flood i bought my 2TB HDD for something like 120€
21:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: so you're like one episode into the series? :p
21:52:06 <supermop> eventually wouldn't we want to to know the structure height of bridge tiles to allow bridging bridges?
21:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if you write a proper newgrf bridge spec?
21:52:50 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, actually... i've a pat...
21:53:03 <drac_boy> eddi actually no..its not 10>2 .. more like 10>10
21:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the current bridge code supports bridging bridges, it's simply disabled
21:54:19 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: actually more like 30 episodes, at season 3. :)
21:54:41 <supermop> back in a sec buying a frame
21:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i think i'm "current" (being middle of season 5 or so)
21:55:13 <Supercheese> Is the "Artistic License" Simutrans paksets use compatible with GPL?
21:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: unlikely
21:55:45 <Supercheese> Hmm, then how about Creative Commons licenses?
21:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i don't know all licenses by heart...
21:56:58 <Supercheese> Hmm, some things seem to be dual-licensed with it and the GPL
21:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> those you can use in GPL projects then
21:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> be careful that GPLv2 and GPLv3 aren't compatible either
21:58:25 <__ln__> currently Netflix has only the first four seasons, so that's where i'll need to stop soon.
21:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> season 5 is the final season
21:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's longer than the others, i think
22:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> season 1 was the one that was cut short due to the writers strike?
22:02:09 <Supercheese> Blarg, I hate reading through these things
22:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: "post it on usenet or a major archive site" sounds problematic
22:05:44 <Supercheese> All I want are some sprites to use under GPL or Creative Commons :(
22:06:48 <Supercheese> Listed as compatible
22:07:05 <Supercheese> took me ~10 google searches to hit that page, strange
22:08:11 <Supercheese> the Clarified version anyway
22:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> IANAL, but i think it's compatible as well, with a few "that might cause a bit of trouble when people get REALLY picky"
22:25:34 <__ln__> apropos, was there some space western scifi series in the 90s? not talking about firefly, 'cause it was in the 2000s. not talking about star trek either.
22:26:05 <Supercheese> Weird NML error, "Line has no ':' delimiter" ... when clearly the line does
22:26:54 <Supercheese> not in the .nml in the .lng
22:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> was there anything other than star trek in the 90s? :p
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22:54:54 <__ln__> i recall watching some scifi series set in space, with revolvers and stuff, but i think it was in the 90s, so not firefly.
22:55:34 <__ln__> or maybe i'm just making it up
23:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there might have been some strange animated series which i have no idea what they were called or how old they were
23:09:01 <__ln__> one possibility is that it was firefly after all, but i only see one episode or part of it, since i don't seem to remember firefly at all now that i've been watching it.
23:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "die Flughafen-Gesellschaft Berlin-Brandenburg (FBB) habe den Eröffnungstermin am 27. Oktober 2013 abgesagt. Aufgrund massiver Baufehler sei ein BER-Start frühestens 2014 möglich." ... so much for that topic :p
continue to next day ⏵
