IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-03
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00:23:59 <drac_boy> is the grfid just rather a random thing and you have to hope for not conflicting with someone else's or...am I wrong about that?
00:24:56 <glx> it's random, but following the usual rule should prevent conflict
00:26:56 <drac_boy> the one where it mentions about not starting with FF?
00:27:41 <drac_boy> thanks either way glx
00:29:12 <planetmaker> drac_boy, yes. not starting with 0xFF is an absolute rule. Violate it and the NewGRF is not a NewGRF.
00:30:10 <planetmaker> the other rule is: choose the first two or three bytes your initials. The last one or two bytes a number which distinguishes your different newgrfs. Total bytes for grfID=4
00:33:37 <planetmaker> as the version of a particular newgrf is indicated by the action14 inside it, the version of a newgrf need not (and should not) be indicated anymore in the grfID. As that makes a newgrf unconditionally incompatible with its predecessors
00:34:05 <planetmaker> thanks frosch123 . I was searching my bookmarks for it :-)
00:35:13 <glx> I guess that's the list of things available from bananas
00:35:27 <planetmaker> it's from the master server
00:35:27 <frosch123> no, it's the list from the master server
00:35:39 <frosch123> i.e. all grfs which were ever used no a public server
00:35:58 <drac_boy> planetmaker mm I was rather going to refer to grf version in description instead, make it easier to tell two same-named grfs apart in the grf manager dialog
00:36:23 <drac_boy> looking at frosch123's link now :)
00:36:25 <planetmaker> drac_boy, that as well. But you definitely should distinguish it in the action14. Sequentially
00:36:41 <planetmaker> or openttd cannot tell which is newer. which is very bad
00:36:49 <frosch123> drac_boy: if ottd ever gets a "update grf" button; the a14 thingie would control that
00:38:19 <frosch123> drac_boy: oh, and I would consider everyone starting a grfid with something in the range 00 to 21 a douchebag
00:38:32 <drac_boy> frosch123 and planetmaker I'll think about that when I make an extra section in the grf for openttd-specific items
00:39:21 <drac_boy> frosch123 you calling james vassie a douchebag? :P
00:39:44 <frosch123> isn't that someone with more than 2k posts on the forums?
00:39:54 <frosch123> they he might overflow my douche-scale
00:40:18 * planetmaker is probably outside that scale, too ;-)
00:40:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: moderators are an exception; it's their job to post non-sense all day
00:44:04 <frosch123> oh, wow, pm is almost top 20
00:44:17 <planetmaker> :D can one search for that?
00:44:48 <planetmaker> omg... I suddenly feel dirty
00:46:23 <frosch123> well, that list always impresses me :) there are many people on that list which i barely see on the forums
00:46:35 <frosch123> which means they are only posting in sections i don't read :)
00:46:49 <planetmaker> :-) yeah. Or long-gone people
00:46:59 * drac_boy probably doesn't see much of them either
00:47:25 <drac_boy> I only check General, Transport Tycoon..., and patch
00:47:47 <frosch123> i think i have been reading the forums since 2005, so i have seen most
00:48:14 <planetmaker> well. I guess my registration date is about when I started reading. A bit earlier, of course
00:48:37 <frosch123> i registered on first post, which was way later
00:48:55 <planetmaker> yes. But mine wasn't "way later" :-)
00:49:18 <frosch123> but ok, i did not read the forums regulary back then
00:49:34 <frosch123> drac_boy: haha, so we have almost no intersection :)
00:50:51 <drac_boy> frosch123 probably :P
00:51:10 <drac_boy> you could *maybe* see me if I'm checking about any openttd-specific nfo issues that isn't existing in patch ;)
00:51:19 <Flygon> drac_boy: MIGHT have been a Cityrail EMU set
00:51:22 <drac_boy> but till then mm yeah
00:51:30 <Flygon> It's not Victorian though
00:51:34 <frosch123> drac_boy: i also read the patch forum; though usually there are only spam bots
00:51:38 <drac_boy> flygon heh I never can tell when you're reading anything or not you silly mr.leaves-a-lot
00:51:46 <frosch123> i do not read the ttd forums
00:52:43 <planetmaker> I read all OpenTTD forums, with varying thoroughness
00:53:07 <planetmaker> the rest... not :-)
00:53:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: newgrf release? or only you own topics?
00:53:31 <Flygon> drac_boy: Post-1990 Cityrail sets have a bad habit of finding methods of crashing... in all ways but physically
00:54:06 <Flygon> eg. the Millennium train tended to crash substations
00:54:06 <drac_boy> flygon heh crash everything except buffers? :)
00:54:09 <planetmaker> I have a brief look there. As I always go via "new postings" it's then often sufficient to see the title :-)
00:54:14 <Flygon> It took too much power
00:55:05 <Flygon> And OSCAR's were bodgy, due to being partially made in China...
00:55:22 <Flygon> This required partially rebuilding them so they could be operated acceptably
00:55:31 <frosch123> hm.... why does pm's profile not have a most active forum/topic :o
00:55:37 <Flygon> So much for getting them faster... the Chinese did a terrible job of building them
00:56:04 <planetmaker> should be opengfx
00:56:09 <Flygon> Australian-only built (either Vic or NSW) would have been 2-3 year worst, China building took 5-6 years and more expense rebuilding partially :p
00:56:11 <planetmaker> newgrf development
00:56:17 <frosch123> it also has no last visited
00:56:37 <frosch123> maybe it cannot handle so many posts :p
00:56:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: i think those two lines tell the most about people :)
00:57:42 <planetmaker> when I earlier (2 years ago?) checked that, it was that at least
00:58:14 <frosch123> i would also have expected those two, but wanted to see whether you have some dirty secret :p
00:58:43 <frosch123> like pikka having an off-topic topic there :p
00:59:00 <frosch123> (though it is likely one of the better off-topics )
00:59:04 <planetmaker> nah, I can really count postings in off-topic
00:59:39 <planetmaker> wow. 54 in off-topic :-)
00:59:45 <frosch123> Pikka: your most active forum topic is in the forums-games section :)
01:00:00 <frosch123> that makes you look like a spammer :p
01:00:58 <Flygon> It was the Warratah sets China screwed up, not the OSCAR
01:02:38 <planetmaker> strange that my profile misses that info indeed. Also I don't have it
01:02:50 <frosch123> it's also broken for foobar
01:03:01 <frosch123> "last visit" is also broken for andy, but the topic works
01:03:33 <planetmaker> maybe related to the symlinking of some sub-forums. like the newgrf dev. But then... it's also your "favorite"
01:03:38 <frosch123> unless the "hide my online status" controls display of that
01:05:11 <planetmaker> maybe. I turned it of now
01:05:39 <frosch123> ah, indeed; the "hide online status" disables the "last visited"
01:06:35 <frosch123> eh, what... my most active topic just changed...
01:06:39 <frosch123> though i did not post :p
01:06:56 <frosch123> it was "autoslope" earlier, now it is "grf2html"
01:07:03 <frosch123> hmm, maybe both have the same amount
01:07:10 <planetmaker> or update on request only?
02:21:20 <drac_boy> I know I've seen some industry cargo balancing etc but is it plausible to have something where an industry accepts A and B but not quite at the same time? (say you ship 100t of both it'll go through one first before using other one)
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02:45:58 <Elysium> Ah yes, another channel where 98% of the people idle.
02:46:10 <Supercheese> I just logged on... :<
02:51:10 * drac_boy will note that if I'm not here then i'm probably busy on computer or doing something else
02:52:57 <Supercheese> It's such a shame the new Zeppelin NTs are so small
02:53:10 <Supercheese> They can only seat 12 people or so
02:53:40 <Supercheese> (despite the Av8 set's capacities :P )
02:55:07 <drac_boy> well real blimps only had a small seating box underneath that large balloon....that says enough :)
02:55:23 <Supercheese> Aye, it's not a rigid, alas
02:58:24 <Supercheese> No more rigid airships exist, it's a travesty :(
03:00:11 <Flygon> We design and build a 3 kilometer long Blimp
03:00:18 <Flygon> And fly it around Australia
03:00:21 <Flygon> I'll somehow get the funds
03:00:36 <Flygon> I wonder if it could be designed for 160km/h... so that a flight to the USA is bearab;e
03:00:51 <Supercheese> Well, there's a fellow down in Los Angeles who's making a new hybrid airship
03:00:57 <Supercheese> his company is, rather
03:02:54 <Elysium> 3 km blimp... is there enough helium left to do that
03:03:38 <Supercheese> (some relevant links)
03:05:16 <Supercheese> They seem to have named it the "Dragon Dream"
03:06:27 <Elysium> The Germans had great success with Hydrogen
03:07:14 <Supercheese> Aye, the Graf Zeppelin had a spotless safety record, and broke all sorts of records for flight time, distance, and passengers transported
03:07:46 <Supercheese> Then the Nazis came along and ruined everything (as Nazis excelled at doing)
03:08:08 <Elysium> so kinda like Quantus till after Rainman came out.
03:10:45 <Flygon> I was actually being serious
03:11:13 <Flygon> Supercheese: To support a huge payload
03:11:19 <Flygon> I'd want that blimp used for freight
03:11:32 <Elysium> still cheaper to go by water
03:11:39 <Supercheese> I think physics would dictate a rather much smaller ship
03:11:43 <Flygon> It'd be an effective method of servicing remote communities in Australia
03:11:44 <Supercheese> say just shy of 1km
03:11:51 <Flygon> And safer than using a truck
03:11:54 <drac_boy> flygon use bush planes silly ;)
03:12:11 <Flygon> drac_boy: Show me a bush plane that can carry the cargo load of a 747
03:12:42 <Flygon> Remote Australian Wilderness is unfriendly to jet aircraft
03:12:42 <drac_boy> just fly in the food on one trip ... magazines on next trip etc :P
03:13:11 <Flygon> Porn magazines are banned from remote Australian communities, if that's what you're implyng
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03:13:30 <Flygon> The Government banned it to prevent sexual abuse
03:13:40 <Flygon> From what we can tell, it's had the opposite effect
03:13:57 <Elysium> Ah yes, Aussie nannystate
03:14:14 <Supercheese> I hear they banned guns to reduce gun crime, with similar results :P
03:14:18 <Flygon> Elysium: I'd say America has more of a nannystate
03:14:33 <Flygon> Yes, guns have been outlawed here
03:14:39 <Supercheese> well, not Opposite
03:14:54 <Flygon> But I can also say with certainty that Guncrime has become less of an issue
03:15:20 <Supercheese> Should have said to eliminate*
03:16:00 <Flygon> You can't eliminate guncrime
03:16:18 <Supercheese> yep, despite all promises
03:16:18 <Flygon> But you can reduce it significantly
03:19:32 <Elysium> My logic, more crazed murder people will adventually die, leaving law abiding citizens left. According to http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/ Chicago had 506 dead from guns in 2012, and so far in 2013, 3.
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06:01:59 <Supercheese> Think world is afk ;)
06:41:32 <Flygon> What year does 2CC get 320km/h TGV again?
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08:53:57 <peter1138> triggers happen but i've not seen any obvious things changing
08:54:19 <peter1138> not sure about the reseed of the station random bits either
08:54:29 <peter1138> spec is vague as usual :)
08:54:38 <peter1138> so anyone have a working test case?
08:54:56 <Supercheese> Newstations was supposed to be, no?
08:57:15 <peter1138> newstats uses it, yes, but without knowing what's supposed to happen it's a bit hard to see
08:57:37 <Supercheese> Conjecture: train arrives at station, passengers shift positions
08:57:55 <Supercheese> Potential test: get a bunch of passengers at a station, then have a non-pax train arrive
08:58:03 <Supercheese> see if the pax shift or not
08:58:11 <Supercheese> (of course, this is just guesswork)
08:58:17 <peter1138> i don't know if they're meant to
08:59:40 <Supercheese> I can't read NFO, so I'm no help there
08:59:52 <peter1138> i can but newstats is MASSIVE
08:59:56 <peter1138> so i'm not going to
09:00:02 <Supercheese> The comment says // re-randomise on train arrive
09:00:14 <Supercheese> Hence why I conjectured earlier
09:00:33 <Supercheese> in the [code] there
09:00:43 <Supercheese> 2362 * 0 02 04 04 80 04 10 04 01 00 02 00 02 00 03 00
09:00:58 <Supercheese> That is just a bunch of numbers to me, does it actually mean something :S
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09:18:34 <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
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09:57:17 <peter1138> Hmm, revert != refresh
09:57:25 <peter1138> I'm not feeling quite right :(
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10:18:31 *** appe2 is now known as NGC3982_2
10:18:52 <NGC3982_2> Im trying to get my trains to autorenew
10:18:57 <NGC3982_2> But they don't seem to want to.
10:19:20 <V453000> dont autorenew, solved :D
10:19:23 <peter1138> is that engine type still available?
10:20:16 <NGC3982_2> peter1138: Yes, all of them.
10:20:31 <Pinkbeast> What if you order one of the offending trains to a depot manually
10:22:41 <Pinkbeast> Do you have any kind of servicing going on normally?
10:24:30 <Pinkbeast> That article's clearly confused. "In 1830, train travel in the U.S. was almost twice as fast" (as in 1800) er no
10:26:06 <NGC3982_2> Pinkbeast: i do think so, yes.
10:26:45 <NGC3982_2> Does service override autorenewals? :)
10:26:49 <Pinkbeast> I would try and observe a train going to a depot normally.
10:26:51 <V453000> why would you, ever, service or autoreplace trains when you do not have breakdowns on?
10:27:27 <Pinkbeast> V453: service - to deal with that part of the game without the annoyance of breakdowns (but train routing to depots is such a nightmare)
10:27:43 <Pinkbeast> autoreplace: errr to avoid selling and buying sixty-eight engines?
10:28:22 <V453000> he wants autorenew not autoreplace
10:28:53 <V453000> and again, why would you service if you have breakdowns Off
10:28:57 <Pinkbeast> NGC: No idea if it's true in OTTD now but I seem to recall an issue that with no servicing, trains never entered depots at all, even when there was something to do there.
10:29:06 <Pinkbeast> autorenew: to deal with the costs of new engines?
10:29:25 <Pinkbeast> To deal with the problems of routing trains to depots. Surely that is obvious?
10:30:17 <V453000> how do you "deal with costs of new engines" by servicing or autorenewing? :D
10:30:31 <NGC3982_2> I turned breakdowns off
10:30:42 <V453000> and you dont need to route trains to depots if you dont need to service them so I dont see how servicing "solves routing to depots"
10:31:41 <peter1138> autorenew: so that you get new engines so that station ratings are higher
10:32:01 <V453000> yes, but that applies for like 3 months
10:33:09 <V453000> ok I thought that is less
10:33:31 <peter1138> Pinkbeast, "That article's clearly confused." they talk about the time taken to travel a distance, not the actual speed of the trains.
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10:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> someone remind me again why the strgen on the website is not up-to-date?
10:49:44 <NGC3982_2> Thanks for the help.
10:49:52 <NGC3982_2> Seriosly, the mIRC default font is unreadable.
10:49:59 <NGC3982_2> I had to scroll back like six times.
11:01:25 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, compile farm (issues) somehow
11:01:31 <planetmaker> good morning everyone
11:12:25 <peter1138> anyway, ISR also uses station triggers, maybe that's easier to testcase
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11:36:09 <Pinkbeast> peter1138: Doesn't matter. There were no commercial railway services in 1800.
11:36:11 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker and frosch123
11:36:26 <peter1138> Pinkbeast, that's not what it said
11:37:28 <Pinkbeast> You think it says "in 1800, horses; in 1830, trains - twice as fast"?
11:37:46 <peter1138> i think it says that travel was twice as fast in 1830 than in 1800, thanks to trains
11:37:54 <Pinkbeast> That is also wrong.
11:38:16 <Pinkbeast> The Liverpool and Manchester only opens in 1830, let alone the USA.
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11:38:45 <Pinkbeast> If (as the article says) in 1830 "rather than taking two weeks, going to Georgia or Ohio from New York City took one week" that has nothing to do with the steam locomotive.
11:39:27 <NGC3982_2> I can't seem to find the site with all the older versions of OpenTTD
11:40:14 * NGC3982_2 can't even google it for some reason
11:40:37 <NGC3982_2> Oh wait, there it is.
11:41:13 <Pinkbeast> The B&O starts pax service in the US in 1830 also.
11:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the train line opens in 1830, why can't it have an effect in 1830?
11:45:22 <NGC3982_2> That color palette.
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11:50:31 <Pinkbeast> Eddi: because that first stretch is perhaps 15 miles long? It would be tricky for that to chop a week off a 2 week journey.
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12:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but even 15 miles could reduce a 1 day travel to a 1 hour travel
12:04:28 <Pinkbeast> But that is not the assertion in the linked article.
12:05:08 <Pinkbeast> ... also, you'd have to be going on quite a specific journey. It would hardly be meaningful to say that travel "in the US" was faster because of one 15-mile railway line.
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12:54:21 <drac_boy> hi snail the french artist? heh heh :)
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13:24:04 <drac_boy> how's the progress on the french NG grf?
13:25:05 <michi_cc> peter1138: Are you sure about the second hunk in that diff?
13:26:03 <peter1138> michi_cc, no, typo from an earlier test ;P
13:26:51 <peter1138> removed in *2.diff (no other change)
13:27:31 <peter1138> i originally was going to merge them into one call, but then i realised the triggers are different, the tile can be different too
13:27:51 <peter1138> although not sure that it should be actually
13:30:16 <Snail> going forward, thanks :)
13:30:42 <peter1138> st->xy for SAT_TRAIN_LOADS feels wrong
13:30:48 <peter1138> as it's per platform
13:31:26 <Snail> I just have to make decisions w.r.t. train sizes, i.e. there will probably be a few NG DMUs that are as tall as SG rolling stock
13:31:48 <Snail> that's because some modern NG multiple units were pretty large for their gauge
13:31:51 <peter1138> (and will crash if st->xy doesn't point to a rail station tile)
13:35:41 <peter1138> michi_cc, also cargo translation table isn't taken into account
13:36:11 <peter1138> (nobody moves pax so it's good enough for testing)
13:36:52 <peter1138> i was thinking we could map statspec->cargo_triggers on load
13:40:44 <michi_cc> Anyway, the old version of that page declared cargo IDs of type A as index into the cargo translation table, so not mapping station prop 12 would be against specs.
13:53:13 <peter1138> gotta love reading assembly language
13:53:18 <frosch123> michi_cc: it also misses houses :p
13:55:02 <frosch123> peter1138: mapping it on load should be fine, that is also done for the refit mask
13:59:27 <peter1138> okay, just modified the diff to make *3.diff
13:59:35 <peter1138> might work with newstats, dunno though
14:00:00 <peter1138> wrong trigger values
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14:09:38 <drac_boy> if its ok for me to ask again...can an industry finish one cargo input first before starting using the other one? (assuming stockpiles are used)
14:10:24 <frosch123> there is no need for any correlation between input and output
14:11:20 <drac_boy> thanks, was just wondering about an industry that shouldn't be processing two cargos at same time realistically
14:12:58 <peter1138> don't use the r word
14:16:29 <__ln__> see, that's what happens when you use the r word
14:17:12 <planetmaker> bonne ann´ee, Belugas
14:17:52 <Belugas> a toi aussi, planetmaker. Que tes voeux pour 2013 puissent tous se réaliser
14:17:54 <drac_boy> frosch123 if theres one thing I like about newgrf industries for sure is that its that the output doesn't suddenly appear only one tick after the input :)
14:18:04 <Belugas> or something like that
14:19:16 <fonsinchen> sorry, wrong window
14:20:51 <__ln__> but i don't want to quit
14:21:32 <fonsinchen> gdb wanted to quit as it couldn't tell me what I've broken ...
14:39:57 * Flygon stuffs a cigarette into __ln__'s mouth
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14:52:55 * drac_boy pokes flygon to over there? >>>
14:53:26 <peter1138> Flygon, why are you still up?
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15:51:39 <NGC3982_2> what am i doing here.
15:53:08 * drac_boy wonders what NGC3982 was thinking? :P
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17:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> your smilies are broken...
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17:15:11 <peter1138> oh, patch crashes now :p
17:15:45 <peter1138> which shouldn't have any cargo triggers... YEAH
17:16:09 <peter1138> oh, i missed a check :-)
17:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "the Patch" or "your patch"?
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17:32:33 <jonty-comp> peter1138 has defected to ttdpatch to restart development
17:32:41 <jonty-comp> it's the logical thing to do
17:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a neo/smith thing... without one, there can't be the other
17:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so openttd is dying because ttdpatch is dying :)
17:37:13 <jonty-comp> does that mean we should throw them at each other and make them merge
17:47:17 <peter1138> " trigger 02 will only be triggered if all of those cargo types have no more cargo waiting"
17:47:24 <peter1138> that's gonna be a pain to actually implement
17:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's logical :)
17:55:44 <peter1138> not when you can have stations made up of multile parts
17:56:14 <peter1138> some bits will be triggered and others won't
17:56:15 <Rubidium> so, just not trigger it when transfering or force unloading (i.e. whenever you put stuff on the platform)
17:56:18 <peter1138> but the station itself will
17:56:41 <Rubidium> in all other cases no more cargo is waiting on the platform
17:57:02 <Rubidium> only less or an equal amount
17:57:26 <peter1138> "no more cargo" == none
17:58:28 <Rubidium> that's the usual definition ;)
18:02:08 <peter1138> mind you station random bits are utterly useless when it comes to multiple parts anyway
18:02:21 <peter1138> 16 bits! but you've got no idea when something else might change them
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18:05:10 <frosch123> yeah, the 16 shared bits are not to be rerandomised :)
18:05:29 <peter1138> something else the spec doesn't say :)
18:05:33 <burtybob> Wondering if anyone had any links to a NML tutorial for the industry side. The main tutorial on tt-wiki.net covers trams, roadvehicles and trains but I'm interested in the industry side, adding text to industry window etc
18:06:07 <frosch123> check ogfx+industries
18:06:13 <frosch123> no tutorial, but source
18:07:17 <frosch123> hehe, that guy was lucky this time :p
18:07:29 <frosch123> (last night he left before someone could answer)
18:14:24 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:18:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24883 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-03 18:18:32 UTC)
18:18:38 <DorpsGek> -Fix: a completely emptied vehicle could trigger an assert
18:34:12 <peter1138> right, well there's no point testing with newstats
18:35:07 <peter1138> anyone know which ISR station uses triggers?
18:38:34 *** dihedral has joined #openttd
18:42:41 <peter1138> how i pick old newgrf versions hidden from the list?
18:44:15 <frosch123> you need the md5sum
18:44:18 <Zuu> By having a savegame that refer to them with correct md5sum.
18:44:58 <frosch123> bananas does not give you a list of stuff, you can only kindly ask it about a md5
18:45:05 <peter1138> i'm not talking about bananas
18:45:28 <frosch123> gui.show_old_newgrf or something like that
18:45:39 *** burtybob has joined #openttd
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24884 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-01-03 18:45:33 UTC)
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> greek - 35 changes by Evropi
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> icelandic - 45 changes by Stimrol
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 8 changes by fanioz
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> latvian - 17 changes by Parastais
18:45:53 <DorpsGek> portuguese - 6 changes by fspinto, neuralshock
18:45:55 <DorpsGek> slovak - 7 changes by Romop5
18:45:58 *** burtybob has joined #openttd
18:46:19 <peter1138> current newstats always tests for a CB before hitting a RA2
18:47:10 <frosch123> you mean newstats never worked in ttdp as well?
18:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the usual pattern...
18:47:28 <burtybob> I think I just totally fail at this. I've got the src and lang from coop for ogfx but when trying to run it through nmlc it errors on things like "#define" and "#include". Did I miss something stupidly basic?
18:47:57 <frosch123> burtybob: it does not only use nml, but also Makefiles and the c preprocessor
18:48:07 <frosch123> the files are "pnml", not "nml"
18:48:36 <burtybob> I see that... How do I use makefiles on Windows?
18:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: install mingw, and then type "make"
18:48:58 <peter1138> frosch123, if it works in ttdpatch, then... well...
18:48:59 <planetmaker> installl mingew... ^
18:49:13 <frosch123> i think there is some explanation somewhere on the devzone wiki
18:49:42 <frosch123> maybe it is the one with the virtual machine though :p
18:50:03 <frosch123> oh yeah, it says so in the summary
18:50:19 <Zuu> Or install VirtualBox + Linux :-)
18:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just setup mingw to compile openttd, then you have everything you need :)
18:51:06 <frosch123> if you only want to read it
18:52:02 <frosch123> though i doubt it is easy to read :p
18:52:35 <burtybob> Actually that is quite easy to read lol
18:55:21 <peter1138> done nothing with my mobile phone all day
18:55:27 <peter1138> so now it's covered in scratches
18:56:00 <frosch123> done give phones to cats
18:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's depressed because nobody wants to play with it
18:56:29 <peter1138> no, i think this uses a form of glass known as cheese-glass
18:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so it cuts itself to get atttention
18:56:39 <peter1138> slightly things will scratch or mark it
18:57:00 <peter1138> (it's a samsung galaxy nexus, supposed to be decent apart from the camera)
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19:09:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
19:15:24 <Alberth> hi, had good holidays?
19:15:35 <Alberth> (or still having it?)
19:17:34 <planetmaker> and so I hope you had (and have?), too :-)
19:18:50 <Alberth> had only, unfortunately
19:19:30 *** wojteks86 has joined #openttd
19:20:32 <Alberth> and with my collegue back from a month vacation, I now have a lot of stuff that he looked at, and needs some more work
19:21:43 <wojteks86> hope everyone is ok
19:21:54 <wojteks86> I just popped in to ask a question (again)
19:22:34 <Alberth> wojteks86: hi, and at IRC you can just burst in, no need to first announce you have a question :)
19:23:18 <wojteks86> could you guys please point me to the right file where it is explicitly said that bridges can be built with a drag'n'drop?
19:23:43 <Alberth> it's probably several files
19:24:07 <planetmaker> or maybe wormhole*.*
19:24:12 <wojteks86> yes, I looked in bridge.h and bridge cmd cpp
19:24:18 <planetmaker> something like that :-)
19:24:28 <Alberth> bridge_gui.cpp is the starting point, as you switch mouse mode when you open the window
19:25:18 <wojteks86> hmm I will have to search more carefully
19:25:37 <wojteks86> you guys on here 24/7? :D
19:25:55 <planetmaker> it might be easier to help you, if you state what you want to achieve ;-)
19:26:04 <Alberth> *_cmd files do the actual action, eg actual building of a bridge/road/etc
19:26:46 <wojteks86> the point is to enable building a tunnel with drag n drop
19:26:57 <wojteks86> I wanted to compare those two
19:27:10 <Alberth> but tunnels are not drag/drop
19:27:39 <planetmaker> with tunnels you cannot do that. They need to come out at the same height without valley in between
19:28:12 <wojteks86> it may be a good challange for the beginning, or at least I might learn something
19:29:03 <frosch123> wojteks86: i guess you need to look at rail_gui.cpp and road_gui.cpp then
19:29:04 <wojteks86> yes, I did have a look
19:29:10 <frosch123> they have to construction toolbars
19:29:17 <frosch123> with the stuff that happens when clicking the buttons
19:29:42 <frosch123> bridge_gui is the selection dialog after dragging
19:30:50 <wojteks86> I will check those two as well, thanks
19:31:11 <wojteks86> and also will bear in mind ottd to do list
19:32:20 <wojteks86> could be that cmd in rail gui cpp: VpStartPlaceSizing
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19:40:10 <Alberth> sounds like a good place
19:40:36 <Alberth> (Viewport) start place or resizing
19:41:12 <wojteks86> yes, it only applies to bridge, not tunnel building
19:41:14 <Alberth> where viewport is an area where the world is displayed :p
19:41:41 <wojteks86> thanks, I already figured that out from the code :D
19:41:51 <Alberth> tunnels find the other end by themselves
19:42:18 <Alberth> basically because there is no choice with tunnels
19:42:58 <wojteks86> do you think it would be useful to be able to build tunnels by drag and drop?
19:43:44 <wojteks86> of course it would automatically lower the land at the release point
19:43:54 <wojteks86> otherwise it wouldnt make sense :D
19:47:00 <Alberth> No idea tbh, I always build tunnels such that I don't need that feature :D
19:47:40 <wojteks86> yes, you are used to it as is
19:47:52 <Alberth> it could be useful for short distances
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19:48:09 <wojteks86> oh yes, only short tunnels make sense with drag drop functionality
19:48:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:49:37 <Alberth> I don't do many tunnels, and if I do them, they are usually through larger mountains
19:50:16 <Alberth> that is, I never build these complicated junctions you see at the wiki
19:50:41 <frosch123> wojteks86: actually i thought you would add sloped entries
19:50:54 <Alberth> hello dihedral, happy new year
19:51:27 <wojteks86> right, it looks like it depends on the playing style, but check this:
19:51:54 <Alberth> wojteks86: almost everything depends on playing style
19:52:01 <andythenorth> the 'ship is lost' behaviour is just plain annoying :P
19:52:05 <wojteks86> if you start placing a tunnel on a flat land - it terraforms, if you start placing it on a half tile slope - it will add the proper slope
19:52:18 <andythenorth> I was going to report it as a bug, and I've been around long enough that I should be able to work it out :P
19:52:21 <dihedral> happy new year to you too sir :-)
19:52:37 <Supercheese> Yeah, 1-wide canals with ship reversing should not trigger the ship lost message
19:53:42 <Alberth> it should never enter that dead end :p
19:53:52 <andythenorth> routing ships on canals is a crap shoot
19:53:58 <andythenorth> it's pure guess work
19:54:05 <andythenorth> you have to build, watch, build some more
19:54:40 <andythenorth> it's not like building trains, where the mistake in route-building is obvious
19:54:47 <Supercheese> Well, I stare at the ship, it goes to dock, (un)loads, and turns around just fine
19:55:03 <Supercheese> why must it bother me with a 'lost' message? :S
19:55:17 <andythenorth> they also fail to go to depot correctly
19:55:35 <andythenorth> I wonder if the solution is to use NPF
19:55:36 <frosch123> Supercheese: i told you: it is a punishment for bad gameplay
19:55:39 <wojteks86> does it have enough free space before entering the locks?
19:55:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: 'bad' :P
19:56:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: 'bad' is what i call 'bad'. objections? :p
19:56:31 <Supercheese> Objection: your bad ≠someone else's bad
19:56:46 <Supercheese> ...but I don't write the code :P
19:59:54 <V453000> andythenorth: that stuff is ill
20:00:00 <V453000> and people tell ME that I have weird ideas
20:01:00 <andythenorth> long time since we made that :P
20:01:57 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
20:03:36 <peter1138> right why doesn't my coffeemaker work?
20:04:07 <peter1138> but ends up with only about 50% of the water in the jug
20:04:13 <__ln__> it knows you're supposed to drink tea
20:04:15 <peter1138> and the rest... somewhere?
20:04:57 <Supercheese> Disassociated into hydrogen and oxygen gas?
20:04:58 <Pinkbeast> It's probably clogged up. Try running it with a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and water (and no coffee obviously) then flush it with water. If it's scaled up, that may improve matters.
20:05:07 <Pinkbeast> It will also make your kitchen smell damned odd.
20:08:31 *** Superuser has joined #openttd
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20:11:06 <burtybob> "accept_cargo_types: [cargotype("PASS")];" That should mean that stations that cover the industry should accept passengers or do I need to do it per industry tile?
20:11:27 <peter1138> how does nml handle randomaction2s ?
20:11:57 <frosch123> burtybob: industries have per-tile acceptance, and per-industry acceptance
20:12:10 <frosch123> the former must be a superset of a the latter
20:12:23 <frosch123> i.e. at least one tile must accept the cargo, so the industry can receive it
20:12:39 <frosch123> however, tiles may accept cargos even without the industry receiving them
20:12:53 <frosch123> most noticable example for this is the oilrig
20:12:56 <frosch123> it accept passengers
20:13:06 <frosch123> but it does not process them into oil and passenges
20:13:21 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
20:14:10 <planetmaker> peter1138, yes, there's random_switch in NML
20:14:57 <frosch123> nml does not support stations though :)
20:15:40 <andythenorth> peter1138: nespresso
20:15:43 <andythenorth> expensive and all that
20:16:04 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 57 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
20:16:12 <andythenorth> oh he was here :P
20:18:10 <andythenorth> 980k downloads of my grfs
20:18:21 <andythenorth> I should do a minor bug fix :P
20:19:11 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
20:20:34 <drac_boy> is there a tiles size limit to industries? I know the wiki said 15x15 for Objects but..mm yeah
20:21:47 <andythenorth> I haven't found one
20:21:57 <andythenorth> there is a limit due to the size of offset from north tile
20:22:26 <drac_boy> so I guess anything from 1x1 to maybe 7x7 would probably seem ok to start with?
20:23:54 <andythenorth> you should just branch FIRS ;)
20:24:01 <andythenorth> branch / fork /s
20:25:44 <Alberth> andy: just release the same software with a new version number :)
20:26:12 <drac_boy> andythenorth beside it would had needed a lot of rewrite and some new graphics that it would had seem easier to not port it tbh :)
20:26:35 <andythenorth> writing industry set code from scratch is....work
20:26:41 <andythenorth> you may be here some time :)
20:27:19 <frosch123> drac_boy: weren't you working on a train set?
20:27:23 <andythenorth> first FIRS commit is March 2009, and we have had (mostly me), but at other times up to 4 devs working on it simultaneously
20:27:28 <andythenorth> and it still isn't done :P
20:27:59 <drac_boy> frosch123 the focus is the trains yeah but theres other extras to it
20:28:03 <Supercheese> Augh, mouse ran past my chair. I need a cat...
20:28:44 <drac_boy> andythenorth not really...I actually had a bit fun coding a rather dumb simple 1x1 blacksmither building to add to default industries .. of course theres no extra features (no animation, no stockpile, etc) but naturally
20:29:00 <drac_boy> don't have it anymore tho. had just wanted to see how far I could understand the basic industry nfo
20:32:05 <drac_boy> andythenorth exactly how many industries and cargos did you have again? and you using any extra industry features?
20:34:26 <drac_boy> Superuser hmm if they can get around different os having different ways to call up the default browser I don't see why that couldn't work
20:35:40 <Superuser> there are several applications I use that can do this in a cross-platform manner so it shouldn't be too hard
20:35:47 <frosch123> Superuser: you know the button at the bottom of the window?
20:35:48 <Superuser> in fact, I'm using one right now! (HexChat)
20:36:07 <Superuser> never noticed it o_O
20:36:30 <Superuser> well that received a fast closue
20:36:36 <Superuser> maybe, I won't close it
20:36:59 <Superuser> There Are Always 2 Ways To Do Things
20:37:26 <Superuser> sorry for seriously breaching IRC etiquette up there b y the way
20:37:45 <andythenorth> drac_boy: 32 cargos, 50 industries in FIRS
20:38:41 <drac_boy> I'm not too surprised..thats a bit heavy :)
20:38:49 <planetmaker> I guess I'll close the issue for you, Superuser
20:38:56 <drac_boy> heh reminds me of marty saying "this is heavy doc!"
20:39:32 <Superuser> PLANETMAKER DON'T DO IT
20:39:41 <frosch123> Superuser: ottd's text engine does not support clicking into text
20:40:02 <Superuser> that feel when no gf
20:40:15 <frosch123> drawing bidirectioanl text is hard enough, interacting with it even more
20:41:36 <Superuser> okay, please close the issue planetmaker (or 'project manager')
20:42:25 <drac_boy> mm last I checked theres 22 cargos (one is PASS so meh to that heh) and 26 industries planned (+2 undecided)
20:42:27 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
20:43:30 <drac_boy> yeah I meant to put it into Dia after I cleaned it up
20:43:38 <drac_boy> but thats not for a while now
20:49:50 <drac_boy> of course I'll post the entire table+chart somewhere online (or ttforum website if I can get one too) when its not full of holes :)
21:02:23 <andythenorth> new CHIPS bug :P
21:02:31 <andythenorth> stations are brain-boggling :P
21:03:22 <peter1138> are you using random triggers?
21:03:23 <andythenorth> the fix unfixed maglev
21:03:28 <andythenorth> probably using random triggers
21:03:33 <andythenorth> I could read the code
21:03:41 <andythenorth> I didn't write the nfo on this one :P
21:04:25 <andythenorth> and I don't use maglev :P
21:05:10 * drac_boy prefers something that runs on rails or concrete beams :)
21:14:31 <drac_boy> mm one more thing re industry tiles before I forget about it...
21:14:44 <drac_boy> are canals and ocean tiles the same thing or can you check whether its specifically either?
21:16:08 <peter1138> andythenorth, i think this one is an ottd bug
21:16:55 <andythenorth> is that allowed? :0
21:17:48 <peter1138> i'm probably wrong of course
21:20:31 <Superuser> "{BLACK}Speed: {GOLD}{VELOCITY}{BLACK} Power: {GOLD}{POWER}" (STR_PURCHASE_INFO_SPEED_POWER) <-- by power do you mean horsepower (hp)?
21:21:00 *** Djohaal has joined #openttd
21:21:48 <Superuser> yeah, you do right? Pretty sure I've seen the hp rating somewhere?
21:21:57 <planetmaker> power as in power. It's a physical unit. Yes
21:22:27 <michi_cc> It can be hp, but also one of the other units OTTD supports (metric, SI, imperial).
21:23:43 <Superuser> you make the translator's job so hard ;_;
21:23:55 <Superuser> what is the metric unit for that? And the SI one?
21:24:41 <peter1138> how hard is to tranlate engine power? heh
21:25:00 <Superuser> engine power! Thanks, translate directly
21:27:44 <frosch123> working on an engish-english translation? :)
21:28:21 <frosch123> we have only 3 of them
21:28:25 <peter1138> is there no spec for station property 0x1A?
21:29:32 <frosch123> but i failed to put in into the grf spec wiki, because that page is already such a mess
21:29:43 <frosch123> i want to rewrite it, but never got to it :)
21:30:47 <andythenorth> ouch, stations :P
21:31:14 <andythenorth> definitely, everything else seems easier than station nfo :)
21:32:51 <peter1138> frankly, properties 09/0A and 1A should be ditched
21:33:22 <peter1138> and then an action2 similar to industry tiles or houses should be used
21:33:44 <frosch123> iirc there was some issue with that
21:33:55 <peter1138> probably duplication
21:34:12 <frosch123> something which stations do, which industries/houses do not
21:35:57 <frosch123> maybe foundations / groundtile / overlay / station is the issue
21:36:13 <frosch123> i.e. you cannot put foundations and buildings into the same spritelayout as for industries
21:36:32 <peter1138> also the fact that all existing station newgrfs would be broken
21:36:38 <peter1138> (but then, aren't they all already? :p)
21:36:59 <andythenorth> also you may not change the spec
21:37:05 <andythenorth> due to the most popular grf
21:37:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: everyone is playing chill pp, so noone notices trunk changes anyway :p
21:37:35 <andythenorth> I wonder if Michael might prefer a saner spec
21:37:39 <andythenorth> could always ask him
21:38:07 <andythenorth> start a thread :P
21:38:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: chill pp is very popular
21:38:22 <frosch123> anyway, i do not think the industry/house spritelayout is any better :p
21:38:27 <andythenorth> or so I'm told :P
21:38:44 <andythenorth> herm, the industry/house spritelayout makes sense to me at least
21:38:45 <frosch123> it would totally suffice if there were 4 hard coded spritelayouts, which the grf could choose from
21:39:02 <frosch123> the variety only results in a mess because newgrf authors do not understand sprite sorting
21:39:13 <andythenorth> I dunno, maybe I find stations hard only because it's different to industries
21:39:19 <andythenorth> lots of station sets get made
21:39:23 <andythenorth> can't be that complicated
21:39:54 <frosch123> lots? ns, isr, chips
21:40:26 <frosch123> isn't everything integrated into isr?
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21:40:55 <andythenorth> canadian stations, us stations, brick freight stations, UK stations etc
21:41:00 <andythenorth> dwe station tiles
21:41:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: half of them is integrated in isr, the other half sounds like non-track tiles which should be objects :p
21:42:00 <drac_boy> frosch123 I would HATE it if the jcindust station grf stopped working :p
21:42:18 * drac_boy NEVER has ever touched the default station tile for as long as I can remember even for passenger trains
21:42:24 <andythenorth> dear Safari: you are not FF
21:42:29 <andythenorth> ^ this is a problem
21:42:56 <frosch123> drac_boy: i am not sure whether anyone was serious :p
21:44:03 <drac_boy> frosch123 :P I just said that anyway ;)
21:45:25 <peter1138> i can't see how to draw a ground sprite, without railtype offset
21:48:26 <peter1138> you can tell it to add a custom offset via a register
21:49:08 <frosch123> iirc the custom offset disables the default offset
21:49:18 <frosch123> you can then set the custom offset to 0
21:49:23 <peter1138> yes but there's no way to set the custom offset to 0
21:50:56 <frosch123> whichever you like, somewhere in your graphics chain
21:51:21 <frosch123> '"The register for "Add offset to recoloursprite" is defined by the Action 1/2/3 chain with Variable 10 as defined for the recolour sprite. :*The other registers are defined by the Action 1/2/3 chain with Variable 10 as defined for the sprite. '
21:54:39 <peter1138> right i think i see
21:59:16 <peter1138> hg backout to the rescue
21:59:35 <andythenorth> hrm, some lang bugs in FIRS build
21:59:38 <andythenorth> dunno what those are :P
22:11:40 <andythenorth> look out pikka, there's going to be a ponk!
22:11:49 <andythenorth> what a naughty pinky-ponk!
22:13:02 * andythenorth had better go to bed :P
22:14:01 <peter1138> andythenorth, when should chips re... ... ... randomise?
22:14:20 <andythenorth> when overbuilding tiles
22:14:29 <andythenorth> dunno if it randomises for cargo
22:14:55 <peter1138> overbuilding tiles always rerandomises
22:15:04 <andythenorth> yexo managed to code it so I don't have to ever read any real code, so not sure how it works :P
22:15:26 <andythenorth> it doesn't have any date based graphics malarkey
22:15:28 <andythenorth> or anything like that
22:15:51 <peter1138> i'm not asking how it works, i'm asking what you want :p
22:16:05 <peter1138> although thinking about it
22:16:11 <peter1138> its graphics for stockpiles
22:16:21 <peter1138> so you probably want it trigger on all the cargo being taken
22:16:41 <andythenorth> there are 2 states for cargo for each direction (+ 1 empty state)
22:16:46 <andythenorth> none / some / lots
22:17:06 <andythenorth> and some tiles have random buildings / cranes / trucks when built
22:17:09 <andythenorth> nothing more than that
22:17:22 <Superuser> can I ask, what is the difference in string name canon between CAPTION and TOOLTIP?
22:17:57 <frosch123> tooltip is that thing that shows up when you hover the mouse over it
22:18:09 <frosch123> caption or title is always visible
22:18:31 <Superuser> I know about tooltips thank you
22:18:39 <Superuser> but where exactly is the caption
22:18:42 <Rubidium> ... and usually in the top bar of the windows
22:18:44 <Superuser> have had a hard time finding them
22:19:05 <Superuser> ^ that's how Australian people pronounce 'nice'
22:19:46 * Rubidium requests a second opinion on that pronounciation statement (preferably from Pikka)
22:20:19 <Superuser> several strings need to be added me thinks
22:20:40 <Pikka> Australians pronounce "nice" as "bonza", Rubidium
22:20:54 <Superuser> you have strings for tooltips for different types of depots (e.g. ship depot), but not captions
22:21:00 <Superuser> should I file a bug?
22:22:19 <Pikka> I loaded a savegame from our multiplayer the other day and noticed that one of scuddles' trains is showing yellow corridor doors between every carriage, instead of just at the end of the train
22:22:38 <Pikka> but not only can I not recreate the bug, he even has identical trains in the same game which don't have the problem
22:22:46 <Rubidium> Superuser: what tooltips precisely?
22:22:56 <Superuser> I linked to it Rubidium
22:23:08 <Superuser> if you go back a few strings you will see
22:24:05 <Pikka> or maybe... I see it D:
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22:24:17 <peter1138> Pikka, it's an ottd bug, isn't it?
22:24:26 <Rubidium> Superuser: I see only one tooltip for rename depot
22:25:31 <Rubidium> since hangars are part of stations, you cannot rename them. The remaining things are depots, so no need for separate strings
22:25:53 <Rubidium> before that it's about all kinds of vehicle types
22:27:24 <__ln__> would it be possible to make those pages linked to by Superuser viewable without logging in?
22:27:44 <__ln__> dunno if logging in is even enough.
22:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not. you need to be a translator (for the language
22:28:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: everyone can view, can't you?
22:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never logged in
22:28:53 <frosch123> well, i would not notice, since i have edit rights
22:29:36 <andythenorth> time for bed Iggle Piggle
22:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "404 - Page Not Found
22:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> The page you requested could not be found."
22:37:46 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: The redirect after login is broken, in case you haven't notice the 404 URL in the browser bar.
22:38:03 <__ln__> so, i logged in, and.... "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator. Please sign up here to become one."
22:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i haven't really looked that closely
22:41:20 <__ln__> "Q: Why do I need an account to view languages?
22:41:22 <__ln__> A: Because the viewing will eventually support you giving comments on the current translation. The account is needed to ease communication with you if one of the translators has questions regarding your suggestion."
22:58:52 <frosch123> explaining a missing feature with a missing feature :)
23:14:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24885 trunk/src/gfx.cpp (2013-01-03 23:14:38 UTC)
23:14:45 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Pass proper UTF-16 strings instead of UCS-2 to ICU in order to preserve characters outside the BMP.
23:39:47 *** Elysium has joined #openttd
23:54:29 <peter1138> 02 04 00 81 1A 20 00 \2sto 1A 00 00 00 \wx00
23:54:40 <peter1138> what. is. wrong. with. that.
23:55:38 <Pikka> I don't know, what is wrong with that?
23:56:40 <Pikka> what does renum say is wrong with that? :)
23:57:11 <Pikka> then I guess nothing is wrong with it
23:57:30 <Pikka> which is not to say that it does what you think it does
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23:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you store var 1A (= constant -1) in the temporary register, and return variable 1A?
23:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the point of storing something and then immediately returning?
23:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> or is this used as a procedure call?
23:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> then what's the point of a procedure returning a constant?
continue to next day ⏵
