IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-19
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00:37:06 <drac_boy> hmm any of you know of any 1000/1500VDC electrification aside to the few in switzerland?
00:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> various commuter systems throughout the world
00:58:52 <drac_boy> thanks, hadn't quite realized about netherlands
00:59:02 <drac_boy> then again I liked some of their earlier emu sets tho
01:14:52 <JamesGo> drac_boy: I think the Woodhead Line in the UK used 1500VDC with overhead cables
01:41:07 <drac_boy> thanks, found some specs to look at which was one of the thing I was curious about
01:52:16 <drac_boy> on a non-project note..I'm curious about that French Narrow Gauge grf project on the forum .. cute little locomotives and wagons there :)
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01:59:50 <drac_boy> funny thing tho is #20 it wasn't too hard to see that theres a boxy locomotive but #21 I almost went "where's the locomotive?" because all 3 cars looked same :->
02:42:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by glx :: r24826 trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs (2012-12-19 02:42:25 UTC)
02:42:33 <DorpsGek> -Fix: determineversion.vbs could hang in a git checkout
03:02:40 <drac_boy> when they say Ladegewicht .. do they mean weight of cargo alone .. not cargo+wagon .. right?
03:20:32 <drac_boy> meh I'm stopping for now, too much typings as usual ;|
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04:31:08 <Supercheese> Sweetness, new versions of UKRS and the addon set are forthcoming shortly
04:31:54 <Supercheese> sorry, eliminate shortly
04:31:56 <Supercheese> simply forthcoming
04:33:51 <Pikka> good news, it won't work in the stable :)
04:34:33 <Pikka> who is in charge of the openttd website these days, Rubidium? I managed to lose my password.
04:35:01 <Supercheese> TrueBrain methinks
04:36:25 <Supercheese> Min version ~r24246, for current_max_speed?
04:37:13 <Pikka> which doesn't in fact completely work anyway, doesn't work for bridge speeds :)
04:38:00 <Supercheese> Most of the time I just build bridges with speed limits far higher than the engines' anyway
04:38:44 <Pikka> I suppose I really ought to make it work with the stable
04:39:29 <Pikka> it would be easy to just make it use the old var for old versions, I shouldn't be so lazy :)
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06:58:59 <Flygon> Or... a graphics set :p
06:59:37 <Supercheese> Well, I already did subways "under" roads
06:59:42 <Supercheese> just code trains as road vehicles
07:00:07 <Flygon> What I meant is, full sized trains in the middle of the street
07:00:20 <Supercheese> Code full size trains as trams, then, eh
07:00:32 <Flygon> But I realized that could be done via some sort of 3 tile wide road-rail-road tomfoolery...
07:00:44 <Flygon> Making it pretty and seamless, though? @_@
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09:32:08 <Pikka> is autorefit amazingly broken?
09:33:04 <Pikka> saving and loading the game seems to fix it
09:33:52 <Pikka> and now closing the depot window seems to fix it... but it didn't before, or something
09:34:18 <Pikka> or just the train window
09:38:13 <V453000> that sounds very random :D
09:40:59 <Pikka> well, it doesn't update whether a train can autorefit until you close the train window
09:41:18 <V453000> try to resize the train window
09:41:24 <Pikka> so by moving vehicles around you can easily end up with two identical trains, one of which will autorefit and the other won't
09:41:56 <V453000> I havent coded autorefit so I dont know how exactly it works :)
09:43:13 <Pikka> anyway, crisis averted. :)
09:44:31 <V453000> so far most of the wtf I have caused was due to my own stupidity
09:44:46 <V453000> like not copying the code in right places and forgetting things
09:45:04 <planetmaker> A Pikka! Hello :-)
09:45:31 <planetmaker> Pikka, autorefit doesn't magically change mid-game ;-) Afaik it's only feasible via developer options
09:46:03 <Pikka> what I mean, planetmaker, is
09:46:30 <Pikka> if you build a single loco and give it an order to a station, the autorefit button is greyed out, because the single loco cannot autorefit
09:46:54 <Pikka> if you then give it some wagons, the autorefit button does not become ungreyed out
09:47:03 <Pikka> until you close and reopen the train window
09:47:06 <planetmaker> that sounds like a bug
09:47:25 <planetmaker> some re-draw command for that or those windows missing
09:48:04 <planetmaker> could you just post that as a bug please with that description? I'm still at work and likely would forget :-)
09:48:33 <Pikka> I could, but I can't remember my openttd password
09:48:41 <Pikka> or the password for the associated email address :)
09:49:00 <Pikka> that's the main reason I'm in here. ;)
09:49:18 <Pikka> I had another bug to post too :) and hopefully soon some grfs.
09:49:22 <planetmaker> I don't have the database passwords with me right now either
09:51:41 <V453000> lol I just wanted to ask something and realized halfway through writing the long question
09:53:07 <planetmaker> hm...hm, maybe I do...
09:56:16 <planetmaker> gah... as expected the user database freezes firefox :S
10:00:49 <V453000> I want the last vehicle in consist to be reversed... I know how to do that through alternate spriteset, but is there any more sophisticated way? I guess there isnt right?
10:01:15 <planetmaker> the articulated callback has a special value to be added to add the vehicle reversed
10:01:48 <V453000> does that apply for not articulated vehicles too?
10:01:50 <planetmaker> and dual-headed does that with the trailing part, too
10:02:08 <planetmaker> V453000, I bet the articulated callback applies *only* to articulated vehicles ;-)
10:02:20 <V453000> well yeah that is why I ask
10:02:28 <planetmaker> each part is a vehicle, mind
10:02:34 <V453000> because I want to flip only not articulated vehicles like that
10:02:55 <V453000> ah I said it wrongly, last vehicle in consist of whole train
10:03:06 <V453000> -> every engine which is at the end of the train is reversed
10:03:26 <V453000> but, that thing could be changed by player by flipping the train in depot
10:03:27 <Pikka> V453000, you can set a flag to allow the user to flip the vehicle
10:03:45 <V453000> I do that Pikka dont worry :) I just want an extra step by making it automatic
10:03:46 <Pikka> but if you want to make sure every one is flipped, then a second spriteset would be the easiest way
10:04:08 <V453000> I can just make a custom reversed template from the same image I guess
10:04:31 <Pikka> just swap sprites 0-3 and sprites 4-7 :)
10:05:10 <V453000> the flipping is great but I am running into one issue there ... I have an articulated vehicle among my trains - so if you autoreplace to that vehicle and then back to normal vehicles, you lose your flip settings
10:05:20 <V453000> because articulated trains cant flip
10:05:29 <Pikka> I think user flipping is generally a bad idea
10:05:44 <V453000> also 90% people use it that way so having it default doesnt hurt :)
10:06:00 <V453000> why is it a bad idea? :d
10:06:12 <Pikka> yes, but it's unnecessary
10:06:25 <Pikka> if the vehicle looks "right" flipped, do it in the code
10:06:44 <V453000> well you could also say only one train is necessary for whole train set, rest isnt :P
10:07:03 <V453000> ah that you mean ... well that depends
10:07:20 <V453000> you can also add vehicles inside of the train and want one of them to be reversed
10:07:36 <planetmaker> yes... user flipping is not exactly necessary
10:07:41 <planetmaker> legacy, oh nice legacy
10:07:45 <V453000> it isnt, but it is nice
10:07:52 <Pikka> but it isn't legacy, planetmaker
10:07:56 <planetmaker> and how big the outcry was when enabling it always unconditionally was removed
10:08:15 <planetmaker> it is :-) now you just need to enable it. kinda :D
10:08:22 <Pikka> I already disabled it for everything
10:08:27 <Pikka> by setting the articulated flag
10:08:38 <Pikka> and now I'm removing that because AI authors complained
10:08:38 <planetmaker> hehe. That's evil, though
10:08:52 <V453000> I dont support AIs at all
10:08:55 <planetmaker> what exactly was their issue? I read but forgot
10:09:17 <Pikka> they wanted to avoid articulated wagons because they couldn't tell how long they'd be or something
10:09:32 <planetmaker> they don't know with non-articulated either
10:09:38 <planetmaker> thus the reasoning is not valid
10:09:43 <Pikka> but it can't be longer than 8/8
10:10:05 <Pikka> so they can assume that everything's 8/8, and the worst thing that can happen is their train is a bit short
10:10:28 <V453000> the AI cannot do something like "buy wagons until length reaches over X" ?
10:14:21 <planetmaker> well. yes. But... that's not a reason to not use articulated vehicles. Rather it might miss some AI callbacks, I guess
10:14:48 <planetmaker> So if an AI cannot do what you just said, it should get the possibility to do so
10:14:48 <V453000> I think all of my vehicles appear as passenger for AIs since I just copied the vehicles and adjusted them
10:15:33 <planetmaker> V453000, there's one flag which says "use this engine for passengers only". Unless that is set, the AI will use what they see fit. And they can ignore that flag, too
10:15:58 <V453000> yeah, I didnt really care about those things ... at least yet but I doubt I will
10:16:06 <Pikka> I didn't think any AI used that flag any more, planetmaker
10:16:34 <Pikka> it was a flag for the original TTD AI
10:16:50 <planetmaker> Pikka, not sure. It's there so that AIs can play according to what a train is supposed to be used for
10:17:34 <planetmaker> but I might be wrong :-)
10:17:58 <Pikka> one would hope that someone writing an AI would get it to look at stats and stuff rather than just that one binary switch which may or may not be set correctly :)
10:18:25 <Pikka> has anyone written a decent train AI yet, anyway?
10:18:37 <Pikka> last time I looked most AIs just spammed the map with a million roadvehicles
10:18:50 <V453000> yes that is pretty much what an AI is for I think
10:19:03 <planetmaker> ah, there's one, two or three which work somewhat. But... development there seems mostly dormant :-(
10:19:10 <V453000> I mean, it cant talk anyway, playing with people is just so much more fun
10:19:21 <planetmaker> and I'd not give them an "excellent" there
10:19:22 <V453000> even if you have separate companies in separate areas, still the talking is nice
10:27:45 <planetmaker> tsk. tsk. irc at work... ^ ;-)
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10:28:35 <V453000> sure irc is just that much better :) but talking about the game in the game and exchanging experience there is kind of better than AIs in my mind :P
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12:02:41 * drac_boy pokes stimrol in case you're still there
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12:59:45 <drac_boy> looks like a "cheap fast" locomotive .. nothing but just basic flat panels etc
13:00:07 <drac_boy> not too surprisingly the english wiki mentioned wartime locomotives
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13:10:36 <peter1138> what's the easiest way of implementing ssl? :S
13:11:23 <peter1138> need to replace code that uses a custom socket handler and sends an http request, as it needs to be https now :S
13:13:09 <peter1138> tempted to just sent the request off to an external program like curl
13:15:58 <Flygon> drac_boy: It looks like it's towing W-class trams in ugly livery
13:16:42 <drac_boy> flygon heh :) btw how're you?
13:16:48 <Flygon> In fact, those ARE trams
13:18:37 <Pikka> hello peter1138 and suchlike
13:18:47 <drac_boy> flygon btw during the interurban "fall" post-WWII .. sometimes you would find an interurban coach body fixed up a little bit aside to getting new trucks and being used in local passenger trains instead. the different comestic effects including roofline sometimes made them stand out in the midst of standard heavyweight coaches tho
13:19:14 <drac_boy> the railroad in question got cheap 'new' coaches tho so it works out for them :)
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13:19:25 <Pikka> planetmaker: did you have that database access, or do I need to bug someone else? :)
13:20:39 <Flygon> That would explain some W-class trams wagging around on 1500vDC 1600mm tracks in Melbourne, drac_boy :)
13:26:11 <planetmaker> Pikka, your username is like your IRC name?
13:26:16 <Flygon> I'd wager a guess they just whacked a spare Tait motor onto the tram and called it a day
13:27:36 <planetmaker> I can only search for what I know ;-)
13:28:34 <Pikka> you can search for anything, I'd have thought
13:29:10 <planetmaker> well, yes. but if I search for the wrong name, I won't find your entry :-)
13:29:28 <Pikka> well, it should be like my IRC name
13:30:03 <planetmaker> k, let's search... it's terribly slow somehow...
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13:30:32 <planetmaker> but maybe I'm just missing the way to efficiently find one user ;-)
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13:34:29 <planetmaker> ... and the website still loads ... with all user date ;-)
13:37:15 <V453000> how many users are there?
13:37:29 <drac_boy> V453000 too many to count I'm sure
13:37:34 <drac_boy> just look at the member list ;)
13:44:46 <V453000> one hell of a lot sounds like a precise enough number to me
13:50:28 <planetmaker> ha, see. It's pikka. Not Pikka
13:51:29 <planetmaker> depends on where it's written. But in the list I could search easiest it's small. why ever
13:52:46 <planetmaker> interesting e-mail address ;-) So. What should I do with your entry?
13:53:04 <Pikka> jim_spriggs@hotmail.com ?
13:53:41 <planetmaker> but did you try to login with all small letters?
13:54:01 <planetmaker> Login: pikka, Name: Pikka ;-)
13:54:07 <Pikka> yes, but I have no idea what the password is :) I tried a few possibilities
13:54:21 <planetmaker> a lengthy one is all I see
13:54:23 <Pikka> can you change the email address or something?
13:54:45 <Pikka> biggyfee at gmail dot etc
13:55:40 <planetmaker> hm, does that help you to reset your PW?
13:56:19 <V453000> you have awesome addresses Pikka :D
13:56:41 <Pikka> I have got the pw recovery email, thanks :)
13:57:20 <Pikka> and we're in, time to post a million bugs :D
13:57:30 <planetmaker> :-) Looking forward
13:57:48 <V453000> that is close to a million
13:58:04 <planetmaker> and it's the only truely odd prime
13:59:40 <planetmaker> anyway, how's life in the post-bus-driving time? :-)
14:00:24 <V453000> Pikka: that was just dumb filtering tbh
14:00:40 <V453000> not trying "all cargoes" before writing a bug is ... )
14:01:08 <Pikka> life is not bad in the post-bus-driving time
14:01:26 <Pikka> not making as much money as I'd like, but then not doing as much work as I should :)
14:02:15 <V453000> aaaaand my automatic train reversing feature is alive :>
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14:17:59 <Pikka> I have to write a newgrf for the second one so it will take a minute ;)
14:18:38 <peter1138> there are no bugs, only... features...
14:27:33 * planetmaker decides to leave early today... still gotta get Christmas presents :D See you around later
14:27:36 <Belugas> i'm feeling a ittle blue :( I was sure we were thursday, not wednesday
14:37:34 <Belugas> haa... my holidays are accepted! cool! Boosting my mood
14:37:45 <peter1138> HOLIDAYS ARE COMING, HOLIDAYS ARE COMING
14:38:59 <Belugas> Let the music be live!
14:39:33 <peter1138> let the music be... ninjamed?
14:39:50 <Pikka> in attempting to create a demonstration grf for a very minor bug
14:39:56 <Pikka> I have crashed openttd :)
14:40:40 <Belugas> yes sir Nelson, yes indeed, big time!
14:41:03 <planetmaker> (and briefly back, grabbing some stuff from home ;-) )
14:41:57 <Pikka> Assertion failed at line 376 of ..\src\train_cmd.cpp: max_speed == this -> GetCurveSpeedLimit ()
14:42:12 <Pikka> when I attempt to build my test train :)
14:42:18 <V453000> hmmm, is there any way to have a string in purchase_speed: string(stuff); ?
14:42:31 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's a new game with that grf?
14:42:41 <planetmaker> then you're very very naughty
14:42:49 <V453000> it compiled but it seems to say 53kmh regadless of the string
14:43:08 <Pikka> I'd guess the answer is no then, V453000
14:44:11 <V453000> OK, poll: :D what value to give a train which changes max speed? :D
14:44:30 <peter1138> its max max at the time of purchase
14:45:40 <V453000> well it changes based on amount of vehicles in consist
14:45:41 <Pikka> so the real question is
14:45:55 <Pikka> why does the test grf crash, and ukrs doesn't? :)
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14:46:31 <Pikka> the speed of what you'll get when you buy it, V453000
14:46:52 <Pikka> you can put an explanatory note in the additional buy menu text if you need to
14:46:57 <V453000> hm I will think about it :) string would be nice though :(((
14:47:04 <V453000> ofc there will be a note
14:47:11 <V453000> I already have a shitload of additional text
14:47:30 <Pikka> a novel in every trainset
14:48:01 <V453000> the more provided info the better I think
14:48:13 <V453000> loading speeds, capacities, attachment options, tilt
14:48:20 <V453000> + train class in my case
14:48:51 <V453000> oh and a few wannabe funny quotes
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14:53:59 <peter1138> when you've got a lot of trains available, that text helps a lot
14:56:58 <peter1138> hmm, waypoint previews show the wrong railtype
14:57:15 <peter1138> who's responsible for that...
14:59:14 <peter1138> gah, need paxdest :S
15:04:21 <Belugas> ain't my fault, i'm (almost) pretty sure!
15:07:41 <drac_boy> btw is there only one single road crossing sprite or is it perhaps plausible to have one for eg <1930 and another for 1930> constructions?
15:09:54 <peter1138> railtypes can do that i think
15:10:57 <Pikka> you can have multiple crossing types, however the vars available to you are very limited
15:11:04 <Pikka> and date of construction is not one of them
15:11:33 <Pikka> current date, rail type, town zone, that's about it.
15:11:43 <drac_boy> guess you have to pick something generic enough that looks good in 1900 and 2000 at same time. a bit complicated I guess :)
15:11:55 <drac_boy> current date? that probably still works
15:12:43 <drac_boy> it only takes a few day to convert a real road crossing so having all your road crossing change graphics on a particular date in game sounds fair
15:12:44 <Pikka> peter1138: /someone/ thought that saving things like construction date for every rail tile on the map would cause performance issues ;)
15:12:57 <peter1138> no, there's just no space
15:13:18 <peter1138> probably isn't for level crossing tiles either
15:13:21 <drac_boy> pikka I wasn't thinking of 'date of construction' .. just that the tool will build one sprite before a particular date and another one after a date
15:13:27 <Pikka> drac_boy: I use a combination of town zone and current date
15:13:49 <Pikka> so crossings in the centre of town will get upgraded before ones out in the sticks somewhere
15:14:13 <Pikka> town zone, current date, and a bit of psuedo-randomness by tile coordinate
15:15:07 <drac_boy> I'll have to look this up when I get to working out rail details, thanks
15:15:59 <drac_boy> pikka so by town zone I'm going to guess that it'll show one particular road crossing if its within any five town zones but a different one if theres no town zone detected?
15:16:25 <Pikka> you can check individual town zones
15:16:27 <planetmaker> iirc one of the main points was to not have an action2 sequence for every rail tile
15:16:39 <planetmaker> or at least no lengthy callbacks
15:17:41 <drac_boy> well I'll have to look this up when I get to rails then. would be nice to have different road crossing in different sections
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15:22:07 <drac_boy> this talk about road crossing and town zones reminded me of that particular wikipage again :|
15:26:20 <planetmaker> drac_boy: think of it as the type of houses found typically in small towns. But not villages or metropolises
15:27:32 <planetmaker> opposite with TZ1 and 3: they're only found in big towns
15:28:13 <drac_boy> oh hm so could build fair-sized houses that look ok in something bigger than villages but out of place next to the big buildings of a city. right?
15:30:42 <Pikka> well there's some fun for someone :)
15:32:02 <planetmaker> Pikka: you have also a crash.dmp, right? could you add that please?
15:34:09 <planetmaker> it contains the info of how the game got there
15:34:24 <glx> does that mean I must get the trace for you ?
15:34:35 <planetmaker> :-) it could mean that ;-)
15:43:38 <glx> indeed it's during var4C :)
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16:02:36 <drac_boy> great got to go for lunch -_-
16:03:09 <Pikka> and I should probably get to bed
16:03:33 <Pikka> gotta go and shift some garden beds or something for my mother in the morning
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18:34:17 <FLHerne> Drat, missed Pikka :P
18:34:33 * FLHerne is good at missing people
18:35:19 <FLHerne> Do people think keeping code and /tmp in a tmpfs would speed up compiling?
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18:37:03 <LordAro> FLHerne: not siginificantly, i'd have thought
18:37:34 <FLHerne> Well, my lump doesn't seem to be CPU- or RAM-limited at present
18:38:18 <FLHerne> LordAro: Exactly. That's why loading everything into RAM beforehand might speed things up :D
18:38:36 <LordAro> ah, in that case, maybe :)
18:38:52 <LordAro> probably easier to upgrade to an ssd though
18:39:04 * FLHerne is conducting patch-merging by trial-and-error as usual :-)
18:39:17 * LordAro does it that way too :)
18:39:41 <LordAro> wait for january sales :)
18:45:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24827 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt turkish.txt) (2012-12-19 18:45:14 UTC)
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 25 changes by mtxd
18:45:25 <DorpsGek> turkish - 48 changes by niw3
18:54:27 <Alberth> I hope your distribution does not roll away :p
18:55:37 <Alberth> so blocky? yes it did afaik
18:55:52 <frosch123> i mean the map split in the middle :p
18:56:29 <frosch123> both vertical and horzontal splits seem to be possible
18:56:30 <Alberth> oh, that I have never seen before
18:56:40 <frosch123> also happens in 0.7 at least :p
18:59:01 <Alberth> it's unlikely I ever used the original map generator in OpenTTD :)
18:59:46 <frosch123> seems to be a property of desert climate
18:59:49 <frosch123> also happens in 0.6
19:00:49 <Alberth> in the original mapsize?
19:01:19 <frosch123> the screenshot is 1kx1k
19:01:33 <frosch123> it is less noticeable on 256x256
19:01:41 <frosch123> so, maybe it has always been like that
19:01:59 <frosch123> and it is just the idea of the mapgen to make half mountains, half flats
19:02:56 <FLHerne> Mmm. Does anyone know what would cause the Advanced Settings to crash, before I spend ages staring at the code? :P
19:03:07 <Alberth> or their initial block-size is very large (assuming they do rectangular up/down operations on the map)
19:03:22 <frosch123> and 0.3.5 does not seem to have bigger maps :p
19:03:28 <frosch123> even the minimap is not zoomable
19:03:36 <FLHerne> I seem to have managed it twice independently, so must be something easy to break :-)
19:03:45 <Alberth> FLHerne: look at the stack trace instead?
19:04:17 <frosch123> yay, looking at the configure patches window of 0.3.5 is awesome :p
19:04:27 <FLHerne> Alberth: I can see about where it breaks - it crashes while getting a setting description
19:04:52 <FLHerne> Returns a null pointer and asserts, so presumably I messed it up :P
19:05:12 <Alberth> frosch123: we should organize a "play 0.3.5" tournament or so :p
19:05:54 <frosch123> who manages to remote crash it first? :p
19:08:22 <frosch123> ok, code shows that it is obviously intentional :)
19:08:45 <frosch123> i probably never played a bigger map with orig mapgen in tropic or arctic :)
19:09:33 <LordAro> "<Alberth> I hope your distribution does not roll away :p" <-- i intend to change it sometime over the holidays, so it shouldn't matter too much :L
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19:18:40 <frosch123> it has a nice gradient with external light sources
19:19:35 <Alberth> LordAro: open a few more windows :p
19:21:44 <LordAro> it doesn't matter that i only see it when turning the computer on/off :P
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19:31:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24828 trunk/src/spritecache.cpp (2012-12-19 19:31:18 UTC)
19:31:25 <DorpsGek> -Change: For dedicated servers without blitter ignore the spritecache size setting and always use the minimum.
19:32:17 <frosch123> hi Wolf01 :) caught some juicy sheeps?
19:34:19 <Wolf01> I'm trying to get my coworkers to use a bugtracker to handle bugs and feature requests... "too much work" they said :(
19:35:18 <frosch123> if used incorrectly they indeed only cause more work :)
19:35:50 <frosch123> but also if used correctly, they cause more work due to less stuff being forgotten :p
19:36:51 <Wolf01> now they just use: email + google docs + paper to write down things, then they forget where they signed what has been done and what not, look for the original email, check the code, write down a new paper and then update the google document :)
19:38:24 <Wolf01> I'm using flyspray since March and I have everything under control
19:41:13 <frosch123> isn't trac the thing which need killing every 12 hours to reclaim leaked memory?
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19:45:55 <LordAro> the upgrade shut down my chrome window :(
19:47:58 <planetmaker> then use gold. It's a better conductor and thus faster ;-)
19:48:53 <LordAro> mercury's a good conductor?
19:50:23 <frosch123> silver > copper > gold > a
19:50:25 <planetmaker> only silver is better than copper
19:50:58 <frosch123> ... > iron > chrome > plum > mercury > silicon
19:51:08 <LordAro> i'm fairly sure i was taught that platinum was the best
19:51:21 <frosch123> (ok, silicon is unfair in that list :)
19:51:49 <LordAro> good that it is, actually :)
19:51:50 <frosch123> platinum is not in the list i am looking at
19:52:08 <LordAro> or i would not (easily) be able to talk to you :)
19:52:36 <LordAro> ... if, of course, you consider that to be a good thing :L
19:53:56 <frosch123> platinum is between iron and chrome
19:54:00 <frosch123> so, not good at all
19:54:17 <LordAro> school lied to me! D:
19:54:31 <Prof_Frink> Mercury should be faster than silver.
19:55:03 * LordAro would check himself, but can't because pgrades
19:55:06 <frosch123> wiki says 9.43 * 10**6 S/m for platinum
19:55:20 <frosch123> silver has 61, copper 58, iron 10, chrom 8.7
19:58:16 <frosch123> ah, wiki explcitly says silver is the best metal
19:58:46 <frosch123> though i am not sure whether it considers alloys
19:58:54 <frosch123> or whether they are generally worse
19:59:26 <Rubidium> then why would one get gold coated cables?
19:59:36 <Rubidium> just use the much cheaper silver ones ;)
19:59:44 <frosch123> that is about oxidation
19:59:48 <frosch123> not about conductivity
20:00:06 <LordAro> indeed - i thought copper is roughly as expensive as gold, and silver is cheaper than that
20:00:08 <frosch123> put silver at air and it will quickly look less shiny :)
20:00:29 <glx> but once it's plugged oxydation shouldn't matter
20:00:30 <planetmaker> hm, yes. Wiki gives that order. silver has lowest specific resistivity
20:00:45 <planetmaker> glx: it does. On contacts it always does
20:00:53 <planetmaker> or the contact will corrode or degenerate
20:01:29 <planetmaker> well. could. ever put a "bad" metal, say, into a metal sink by accident?
20:01:38 <planetmaker> and left it there for a bit
20:01:42 <Rubidium> LordAro: it's only a factor ~50 (40k vs 755)
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20:02:38 <Rubidium> but if you want to prevent oxidation and other stuff on your connectors, you should use teflon ;)
20:02:45 <glx> but using gold coated cable in non gold plug is useless
20:03:11 <LordAro> buy Monster HDMI Cables!
20:04:09 <glx> better use cable with a proper shield
20:05:21 <LordAro> how can you tell if a cable as one?
20:06:53 <glx> weight, brand and price I'd say :)
20:07:24 <Rubidium> wind some copper around the wire, add a current on that copper and see whether there's electricity flowing in the cable?
20:07:39 <frosch123> Rubidium: yeah, teflon cables :) even if they break, you won't notice a difference :p
20:08:52 <planetmaker> that's the future
20:09:09 <LordAro> especially not in my house
20:09:31 <Rubidium> LordAro: you could ultrasound the cable
20:09:46 <LordAro> its a struggle to get a wireless internet signal, let a lone powering the device as well
20:10:23 <LordAro> and ultrasound would be easily interrupted, probably
20:10:25 <frosch123> hmm... now that pm mentions it...
20:10:59 <frosch123> buying wireless boxes did not cross my mind, but they might fit my room
20:11:04 <Rubidium> LordAro: depending on where the signal returns (or not) you can determine whether there's a mantle/shielding or not
20:11:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: any recommendations?
20:11:37 <Rubidium> the problem with most wireless stuff is that they aren't really wireless... stupid power cables
20:11:44 <LordAro> Rubidium: oh, wait, you were still talking about cable shielding :L
20:12:04 <frosch123> Rubidium: i would definitely only buy stuff with powercables
20:12:15 <frosch123> they are always empty when i need them
20:12:47 <Rubidium> so you could use IEEE 1901
20:13:06 <Prof_Frink> Power-over-Avian-Carrier?
20:14:01 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: that'd be fun ;)
20:14:28 <Rubidium> LordAro: 500 Mbps is fast enough for most purposes
20:14:59 <LordAro> Megabirds per second?
20:17:16 * LordAro restarts computer to check it all still works
20:17:32 <LordAro> you'll be able to guess if it isn't :L
20:20:38 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
20:20:56 <LordAro> ah. excellent. still boots. :)
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20:23:19 <frosch123> LordAro: have you checked that you did not accidentially boot into an alternativ universum?
20:44:13 <drac_boy> is it just I'm not looking at an average sample or are trolley trailers always a bit smaller than the trolley themself? (eg seats 56 on trolley but only 44 on the trailer)
20:44:41 <frosch123> ok, it has no knobs
20:45:29 <frosch123> anyway, technical specs do not match the price
20:45:53 <Rubidium> frosch123: seems to be Apple-price-ish
20:46:01 <frosch123> though i believe they can be used in rain
20:55:01 <LordAro> why would you want that?
20:56:14 <frosch123> the rain god invocation?
21:01:46 <LordAro> oh, of course, sillly me :)
21:03:01 <frosch123> so, is the any hifi nerd in this channel?
21:04:04 <frosch123> are speakers with a frequency range 30hz to 11k total crap? or is that normal?
21:04:12 <frosch123> 11k sounds really low
21:04:27 <frosch123> others have 20hz to 20k
21:04:56 <Alberth> 20k sounds about right
21:04:57 <drac_boy> (if anyone's wondering about the chassis on the other hand, its a 1'B1' ...bit unusual but mm OBB had a number of these tho
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21:05:49 <y2000rtc> hi all, have a nice evening
21:06:39 <frosch123> yeah, most speakers seem to go to 20khz
21:07:03 <frosch123> though they only start around 80hz
21:07:37 <frosch123> though they are all 2-way
21:09:46 <LordAro> i believe your ears hear from around 20Hz - 20kHz (well, used to :P )
21:10:00 <LordAro> so the closer your speakers are to that, the better
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21:19:05 <drac_boy> hmmm have any one heard of kgf before? I assume thats short for 'kilogram force'?
21:20:02 <frosch123> yes, it's called "pond" in german :)
21:20:23 <frosch123> was used before 1978
21:21:08 <drac_boy> thanks, wanted to be sure. trying convert this japanese table into kN/etc that the game would had understood :->
21:22:54 <drac_boy> for a moment I was going to ask you frosch123 because for some reason web thinks 5kgf is below 0.1kN
21:23:40 <frosch123> well, 5kgf is way below 0.1 kN :)
21:23:54 <LordAro> drac_boy: what did you try? if wolfram alpha gets it wrong, i think it's a first :)
21:24:06 <drac_boy> oh hm wait frosch123 apparently the clipboard must had thought it was a dot not a comma
21:24:12 * drac_boy sighs at stupid computers
21:24:32 <valhallasw> frosch123: I don't think there's anyone who uses something else than g = 10 to go from kgf to N and vice versa ;-)
21:24:52 <drac_boy> its 5,175kgf .... lets see... thats 50.7kN then
21:25:25 <Zuu> The seamless mode of virtual box is quite cool. Having windows from Linux mix with windows from Windows.
21:25:54 <frosch123> valhallasw: i always use 9.81 (not 9.80665)
21:26:02 <frosch123> though argueably ottd uses 10 :)
21:26:18 <drac_boy> I guess for 656kW under dc wires .. 50.7kN isn't too bad
21:26:52 <Sturmi> speaking of virtual box, is there a way to load Machines from VMware Workstation into virtual box?
21:27:26 <valhallasw> that's the type of thing where I see kgf's, and they always use a factor 10, because, well, it doesn't matter if it's 10% off :-)
21:27:27 <Zuu> It has support for 3-4 different file types for disk files.
21:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: that's totally within the margin of error for these things
21:27:44 <Zuu> If it support VMWare files I don't know.
21:28:20 <frosch123> Sturmi: afaik virtualbox can read the disk images of vmware
21:28:25 <DorpsGek> drac_boy: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
21:28:40 <drac_boy> hm lets try without comma
21:28:40 <Supercheese> Does it not like commas?
21:28:52 <drac_boy> apparently not supercheese
21:29:09 <__ln___> DorpsGek: commas are the standard decimal separator you silly.
21:29:09 <frosch123> drac_boy: "," is totally stupid as thousand separator
21:29:10 <drac_boy> anyway now I know how to convert these numbers myself, cheers either way
21:29:21 <drac_boy> __ln___ yeah figures
21:29:24 <frosch123> the only acceptable thousand separator is a space
21:29:55 <frosch123> but dorpsgek likely won't understand spaces either :p
21:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___, drac_boy: i don't think it helps if you mix both ;)
21:30:06 <valhallasw> the only people who use thousand separators shouldn't care about four digits of precision in the first place
21:30:10 <frosch123> Supercheese: are you from a coutnry which uses fahrenheit?
21:30:32 <Supercheese> (don't say, "there's yer problem") :P
21:30:58 <__ln___> i guess you use Rankine as well then.
21:31:04 <frosch123> __ln___: don't confuse decimal and thousand separators
21:31:25 <Supercheese> I hadn't used Rankine until I took thermodynamics at college
21:31:31 <Supercheese> but yes, then I did
21:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a rankine?
21:31:51 <Supercheese> the absolute Fahrenheit
21:31:55 <frosch123> Supercheese: i already told this channel at least once this week that fahrenheit is by far the most stupid unit
21:32:06 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: like Kelvin, but the degrees are equal to fahrenheits.
21:32:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: rankine/fahrenheit is like celsius/kelvin
21:32:12 <Supercheese> Stupid it may indeed be, but I still cannot work well in Celsius
21:32:24 <valhallasw> frosch123: nononononono. try Shore hardness, or degrees Baumé
21:32:37 <frosch123> valhallasw: i am sure they are better than fahrenheit
21:32:47 <valhallasw> at least you can convert fahrenheits to something /sensible/
21:32:56 <frosch123> fahrenheit is the idea to draw a line through a single point
21:33:07 <frosch123> (hint: usually you need two)
21:33:11 <Supercheese> I agree, but we're stuck with it here
21:33:28 <Supercheese> I grew up with it and as such is easiest for me to work with
21:33:39 <Supercheese> the rest of the country too
21:33:58 <Supercheese> despite all protestations by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers
21:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it would only take one generation to adapt...
21:34:22 <Supercheese> sometime in the 1970s they said "the US *will* adopt the Metric system"
21:34:49 <Supercheese> I blame our terrible government schools
21:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> germany switched in the 1850s
21:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there wasn't even a germany at that point
21:35:11 <Supercheese> (although industry probably isnt helping much either)
21:35:27 <valhallasw> frosch123: Shore A is: 100 minus 'prod this material with a hardened steel rod 1.1 mm - 1.4 mm diameter, with a truncated 35° cone, 0.79 mm diameter, apply a mass of 822 grams for 15 seconds, measure the indentation and divide that by 2.54 mm, and multiply by 100'
21:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> just a bunch of individual states, no central government
21:36:02 <Prof_Frink> At least your country is consistent.
21:36:15 <Sturmi> i see inches and ounces in this shore explanation
21:36:44 <valhallasw> Sturmi: yeah, I copied most of it from wikipedia, which uses metric units
21:36:45 <LordAro> Prof_Frink: don't complain, it's awesome :)
21:37:37 <Supercheese> Lately though, it seems the 'football field' has become a standard unit of measure -_-
21:37:41 <valhallasw> oh, and degrees Baumé: "Baumé degrees (heavy) originally represented the percent by mass of sodium chloride in water at 60 °F (16 °C). Baumé degrees (light) was calibrated with 0°Bé (light) being the density of 10% NaCl in water by mass and 10°Bé (light) set to the density of water."
21:38:06 <__ln___> i'm disappointed that there is no imperial unit for e.g. volts or bytes.
21:38:16 <Prof_Frink> Supercheese: Not the Linguine?
21:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: a "long byte" and a "short byte"? :)
21:39:16 <frosch123> __ln___: dc power supply is the imperial voltage :p
21:39:49 <Sturmi> imo the difference between kB and kiB gives enough confusion
21:39:49 <Supercheese> 60Hz AC vs. whatever y'all use over there
21:39:55 <frosch123> oh, and big endian might be the imperial byte order
21:40:47 <__ln___> ah, 60Hz vs 50Hz is a difference.
21:40:54 <frosch123> Sturmi: interestingly kiB does not consist of 10-bit bytes :)
21:41:08 <Prof_Frink> __ln___: I'm disappointed there isn't a metric unit for time. I mean, why is a day 86.4ks long? That's just silly.
21:41:22 <valhallasw> frosch123: at least the French call them octets
21:41:48 <Sturmi> frosch: dont give the imperials new ideas :D
21:41:53 <frosch123> Supercheese: __ln___: nah, the real imperial power supply is dc, but i guess even the americany got rid of that :p
21:41:54 <__ln___> Prof_Frink: Swatch Internet Time, 1000 beats = 1 day
21:42:21 <Supercheese> Old Roman system of Hours and Watches
21:42:41 <Supercheese> Daytime subdivided different than nighttime
21:43:11 <Prof_Frink> Of course, the real mess is the reason Europe uses "230"V for electrickery.
21:43:18 <frosch123> Sturmi: there is a metric unit for time: second
21:43:43 <frosch123> there are no units for days or years, because their length is not constant relative to seconds
21:44:33 <Supercheese> Daylength is technically a function of seconds-since-universe-began or some such, no?
21:44:58 <Supercheese> Same with yearlength, etc
21:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: what is that reason? as a kid i learned it would be 220V, but it was changed somewhen inbetween
21:45:31 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: because the UK used 240
21:45:39 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: UK was 240V, mainland europe was 220V.
21:45:39 <frosch123> the only reasonable subunit of a day or year would be some rotation angle
21:45:45 <valhallasw> the UK slightly decreased the voltage, while mainland increased it
21:45:57 <frosch123> so, maybe the duration of days and years should be some "pi" unit
21:45:58 <Prof_Frink> Rather than change the actual value, they just made it 230V and widened the tolerance band.
21:46:13 <frosch123> or just fractional days :)
21:46:36 <Supercheese> Days measured in radians
21:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> a circle is 400 degrees :)
21:47:18 <Prof_Frink> Hours measured in radians (earth-based), days measured in radians (sun-based).
21:47:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: UK was 240V and the rest 220V so 230V was a nice number to standardise on
21:47:39 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: grad, not degree
21:48:15 <frosch123> @calc 400 / sqrt(3)
21:48:15 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 230.940107676
21:48:19 <Prof_Frink> frosch123: Unless it's in the oven, in which case it can be 400 degrees too.
21:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> a number that doesn't really make any more sense than 360
21:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so it'd be totally pointless to switch
21:48:51 <frosch123> so, i would go for 230.94 V :)
21:48:59 <Supercheese> I think we're stuck with 360 and other base-60 stuff from ancient Babylon or some such
21:49:08 <valhallasw> so any transformers that were outside 240+1.5% have been replaced by now
21:49:12 <Supercheese> however that happened
21:50:00 <frosch123> Prof_Frink: you are again stuck with silly units
21:50:12 <frosch123> don't bake stuff with more than 200°C
21:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: some french people picked up that system in early modern times
21:50:35 <Prof_Frink> frosch123: Ovens are in Gas Mark anyway.
21:50:55 <LordAro> does anyone want to help me with some binary file format decoding?
21:51:04 <Rubidium> "Gas mileage is measured in square meters" ;)
21:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, "liters per 100 km" is a silly unit really :)
21:52:11 <frosch123> Prof_Frink: i like how the wiki table classifies gas marks from "slow" to "hot" :)
21:52:18 <frosch123> so, it's also a speed unit :p
21:53:10 <Prof_Frink> My dad used to work in pharmaceuticals. He would regularly calculate doses in mg/lb.
21:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> a pound i suppose
21:53:46 <valhallasw> pound of body weight, I guess
21:54:28 <frosch123> oh, gram per pound ... yeah, that is indeed a nice unit :)
21:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the odd things in early physics lessons in school: expansion coefficients in 1/K
21:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of mm/(m*K)
21:56:20 <Prof_Frink> What I want to know is, when the Yanks landed on the moon, did they use pounds for calculating the required thrust?
21:56:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, earlier this day i had also some trouble with S/m for conductivity
21:56:33 <Prof_Frink> Because a pound doesn't weigh a pound on the moon.
21:56:38 <frosch123> when it is Sm/m^2 :)
21:58:03 <valhallasw> frosch123: same for ohm-meters, of course
21:58:59 <LordAro> Prof_Frink: they probably made up their own units, to confuse the ruskies :)
22:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: i only know that they lost a mars probe because one company used metric and the other imperial units, and they didn't properly handle conversion
22:00:26 <valhallasw> Prof_Frink: pound forces are the standard unit of force in foot-pound-second
22:01:04 <valhallasw> or poundals, apparently
22:01:08 <Sturmi> they even lost a complete prototype of the ariane 5 rocket due to imperial vs. SI
22:01:12 <valhallasw> which are just pound feet per square second
22:01:18 <Prof_Frink> valhallasw: Yes, but 1lbm only equals 1lbf at standard earth gravity.
22:02:20 <__ln___> a gallon is quite a nice unit
22:02:23 <valhallasw> Prof_Frink: as long as you're consistent with the subscripts ;-)
22:02:28 <valhallasw> __ln___: which of the two?
22:02:31 <Supercheese> British gallon or American gallon?
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22:04:17 <Prof_Frink> British and American Gallons are the same. Both eight pints.
22:04:28 <Prof_Frink> It's just that you guys get short-changed on your beer.
22:04:51 <__ln___> the american one is exactly 231 cubic inches according to wikipedia. what a nice round figure.
22:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: but do you really want a full pint of american beer? :p
22:05:53 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Good point, well made.
22:06:11 <Prof_Frink> But I've just looke up Pint on Wiki, and it's worse than that.
22:06:20 <Supercheese> "The imperial (UK) gallon was originally defined as the space occupied by 10 pounds (4.5 kg) of distilled water of density 0.998859 g/mL weighed in air of density 0.001217 g/mL against weights of density 8.136 g/mL."
22:06:48 <Prof_Frink> However, whereas the imperial pint is divided into 20 imperial fluid ounces, there are 16 US fluid ounces to the US liquid pint making the imperial fluid ounce slightly smaller than the US fluid ounce.
22:07:25 <Supercheese> And yes, you do not want any pint of American beer
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22:08:49 <Supercheese> every brewery here feels the need to completely ignore centuries of established brewing standards and think up some new variety of ale, 99% of which are terrible
22:09:07 <Supercheese> barely worthy of the title
22:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: a bad beer is called "plörre" over here :)
22:18:20 <drac_boy> short question, do you just call it platform or whats the name for that wide standing space on the front and rear of some earlier electric locomotives?
22:20:45 <Supercheese> Would I have to type "ploerre" since I don't have umlauted-vowel keys?
22:21:13 <Prof_Frink> Nah, just copypaste Eddi's umlautage.
22:21:13 <Supercheese> Older versions of MSWord had nice shortcuts for those kinds of things
22:21:32 <Supercheese> copy/paste is obvious, I meant if I had no access to copiable text
22:22:08 <Supercheese> Used to be able to press something like Shift+;+[vowel] for umlauts
22:22:35 <Supercheese> or was there a ctrl thrown in there
22:22:51 <Prof_Frink> I just use kcharselect. ☃
22:22:55 <Supercheese> Ctrl+shift+;+[vowel] sounds more like it
22:23:11 <Supercheese> which is more intuitive than some alt+code, IMO
22:23:56 <Prof_Frink> Compose key works something like that, but I've never poked around with it much.
22:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: yes, writing "oe" is allowed if you don't have an "ö"
22:24:26 * Supercheese wonders if there's an Autohotkey script out there to emulate that behavior
22:24:36 <Supercheese> I rather liked MSWord's style
22:25:03 <valhallasw> Supercheese: US international has dead keys, i.e. "o = ö
22:25:29 <valhallasw> and 'o is ó, `o is ò ^o is ô
22:26:12 <Prof_Frink> UK international has LOUD-ER AND SLOW-ER.
22:26:13 <__ln___> indeed, there's supposed to be the US International keyboard layout available in all windowses.
22:26:49 <valhallasw> it's called US International on windows, it's called US <something> with dead keys on ubuntu/debian
22:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also use a compose key or something
22:30:13 <Supercheese> "German Umlaute Convenience Script for Superior US English Keyboard Layouts"
22:31:25 <Supercheese> Wait, surely there are more vowels than that
22:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> some people prefer US layout for programming purposes (more easily accessible {[]} keys)
22:32:19 <valhallasw> on that subject, I'd like to ban ctrl-Q, or to ban azerty keyboards
22:32:37 <valhallasw> the amount of tabs I've closed while trying to select all >_<
22:33:22 <Supercheese> Oh, guess I was thinking of Swedish special vowels and stuff
22:33:50 <Supercheese> although I don't have cause to type those nearly as often
22:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: there are 5 vowels, but only 3 have umlaut-modifications
22:34:30 <Supercheese> German doesnt use that O with a slash through it, then, I suppose
22:34:39 <Supercheese> that's more of a Danish-etc. thing
22:34:40 <frosch123> ë and ï exist as well :)
22:34:42 <valhallasw> Supercheese: there's all the ó, ò, ô, õ, as well as the ðøöþåæ and µ which are not accessible with dead keys, but via alt-gr
22:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: no, that's danish
22:35:17 <Supercheese> umlauted e... how would that work
22:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ø in danish is the same as ö in german
22:35:42 <frosch123> ë and ï are not umlauts, but diphthong-breaking letters
22:36:11 <Prof_Frink> What about everyone's favourite - the umlauted n̈?
22:37:02 <frosch123> "ei" "au" "eu "ui" are diphthongs which can be split using ï or ë
22:37:16 <frosch123> they are also used to split ae oe ue
22:37:22 <frosch123> to avoid confusion with äöü
22:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an old thing there you put a - over an vowel (especially u) to make it sound longer, but it got out of fashion
22:37:57 <Supercheese> So theoretically, Neu "noy" vs. Nëu "Neh-ooh" ?
22:38:15 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: isn't there some script which uses an overline to distinguish u and m?
22:38:20 <frosch123> or something like that?
22:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Sütterlin script and stuff
22:40:39 <frosch123> ah, but sütterlin uses ŭ, so ū is still available :p
22:53:05 <Supercheese> Well, that autohotkey script seems to work quite well
23:04:15 <FLHerne> Daylength and TT-separation patches don't seem to mix well :-/
23:04:31 <FLHerne> Not that surprising, I quess
23:32:27 <drac_boy> I've been thinking about making my prices 'work' with daylength but well meh I still need to look into it a bit more :)
23:39:28 <drac_boy> btw not sure if this is maybe a bit too long question but whats the difference between dc and ac to a dual-voltage locomotive? (providing its not one of these kind that is built for heavy fast trains...which would be a lot of kWs' just on ac alone)
23:58:54 <Supercheese> Hmm, it seems that autohotkey script can simply be rewritten using hotstrings, making the code much, much simpler
continue to next day ⏵
