IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-17
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00:18:27 *** Progman has joined #openttd
00:26:19 <drac_boy> oh hi flygon finally :p
00:27:19 <drac_boy> mm thanks haven't seen latter yet I think
00:29:56 <drac_boy> how're you still flygon?
00:30:40 <Flygon> We had a VERY similar steeplecab design
00:30:45 <Flygon> One of the E-class locomotives used it
00:30:59 <Flygon> E-class is probably one of the few without a fixed visual design
00:31:32 <drac_boy> well steeplecabs were probably a reasonable decent low-cost design .. plus the sloped-down nose probably make it easier to always see the ground shunting crewmember or something too
00:32:15 <drac_boy> did not have much to put under the hood in first place....sand...maybe a small folding toilet...some tools....the transformer if needed (small tho)..etc
00:34:51 <drac_boy> already plan to have 2 or 3 choices in my list already :->
00:36:45 <drac_boy> flygon btw did you know that the uk Deltic was supposed to have a more sculptured nose but there was some arguement and so the 'cleaned up' version was used instead even although it had a minor visual design fault with it?
00:36:54 <drac_boy> still at least it looked nice :)
00:39:29 <Flygon> Both were built to the same specs. Mostly used for interurban goods
00:39:59 <Flygon> But lacked the horsepower for acceptable passenger use by the 1950s, so they got obsoleted by the L-class
00:41:04 <Flygon> Victorian Railways wanted to electricy every single mainline by 1960. They ran out of money doing just one line. Probably because they did the toughest one first. >_>"
00:41:13 <Flygon> Doesn't help they used 1500V DC...
00:42:54 <drac_boy> well flygon interestingly enough I have some low-power locomotives for different years
00:43:18 <drac_boy> mainly to be cheap ... nothing like having a single short rail link with a 700hp engine running slowly back n forth
00:43:34 <Flygon> Victorian Railways were HUGE fans of that :p
00:43:38 <drac_boy> (next to a 2500hp drag locomotive waiting at the other station)
00:43:57 <drac_boy> in usa maps you kinda do the same thing by using the EMD SW locomotives
00:44:05 <drac_boy> eg SW600 which meant it had 600hp
00:44:23 <drac_boy> yeah .. the emd names were interesting...
00:44:36 <drac_boy> SW is switcher ... sometimes could be found shunting coaches in stations tho...
00:44:46 <drac_boy> GP is .. duh .. General Purpose .. freights or passengers whatever
00:45:03 <drac_boy> and SD I never could figure out but basically 6 axles instead of 4 ... heavier freights
00:45:37 <drac_boy> there were also early diesels labelled TR .. short to TRansfer .. basically moving freights back n forth .. sometimes being only a yard-to-yard locomotive even
00:45:48 <drac_boy> thats all I know of anyhow ^^
00:46:40 <Flygon> Here, you memorize letters and hope for the best
00:46:59 <drac_boy> japan had a bit more or less similar system although not always used...
00:47:24 <drac_boy> EF would meant Electric Freight ... EP you can figure that out ... DE being Diesel-Electric I recall .. etc
00:47:26 <Flygon> Not that it isn't unusual to have a Shunter Diesel and High Speed Steam Loco coupled together... and used for long distance rail
00:48:02 <drac_boy> uk may not have names but they have numbers .... single digit more than often is a shunter (that goes for the 09 Gronks too)
00:48:21 <drac_boy> and 20-40s are .. well .. earlier mainline diesels .... I don't know much about the higher numbers
00:48:27 <Flygon> I never really liked the UK system
00:48:39 <drac_boy> of course anything thats 1xx is a one-car or 2-car mu set
00:48:42 <Flygon> And also New South Wales adopted it. And NSW is mortal enemy. :B
00:48:47 <drac_boy> including the original 10x bouncy ones
00:50:13 <Flygon> NSWGR: Unintentionally making 3801 memetic since 193something @_@
00:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> these things went in lots of cities. they're called trams...
00:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's driving on the left
00:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so italy kinda drops out :)
00:54:08 <Flygon> Eddi: I never notice driving on the left issues. I'm Australian. :p
00:54:24 <Flygon> Point is, mirror the photograph, fix the text, boom, instant Italy
00:54:35 <Flygon> And trams died out nearly everywhere by 1971 :p
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00:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not around here :)
00:55:34 <Flygon> That explains a fair bit :)
00:56:45 <Flygon> From around Melbourne, here. Trams never exactly so much died as they... lingered. The MMTB (?) head was a huge fan of trams, and probably the only reason the network didn't get disassembled (He successfully argued that the network is so large, it'd cheaper to keep running trams)
00:57:47 <Flygon> I'm a tad surprised they died out at all, in France, given how much the country likes it's historical image...
00:58:02 <Flygon> In Australia, we lack historicalness. So we build historicalness and claim it's historical :B
00:58:27 <glx> they disapeared because cars usage was growing
00:58:31 <Flygon> Well, European style historicalness
00:58:42 <Flygon> Nobody ever remembers the aborigines :(
00:58:48 <glx> but now municipalities tend to try to reduce cars usage
00:58:54 <Flygon> Yeah, same reason almost every other Australian city lost trams
00:59:22 <glx> and when you create a tram line you reduce space for cars
00:59:23 <Flygon> The only real holdouts were Melbourne... with Bendigo, Adelaide being a distant second, and Ballarat being a faaar third
00:59:46 <Flygon> Yeah, that's why the trams got removed from Sydney. Despite Sydney having the largest tram network EVER
00:59:51 <Flygon> Their streets are narrow
01:00:30 <Flygon> (similar reason they got removed from Brisbane. Along with Government corruption permitting 'accidental' fires of the rollingstock)
01:00:53 <Flygon> Melbourne's lucky, in that it has wide streets, and Adelaide's network, if you call it that, is mostly on it's own RoW
01:01:36 <Flygon> But, yeah, here's hoping they can build the lines again. This time, with 5+ car lengths in mind...
01:02:08 <Flygon> Melbourne's kinda screwed. We have a 19th centery archiatecture, with 20th centery running style, with 21st centery trams
01:02:31 <Flygon> They're terrified of running the 3 and 5 car trams outside of certain lines, because the curve raidus may induce derailing
01:03:06 <Flygon> I knew I was spelling that wrong
01:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he meant center-y, as in inbetween left-y and right-y
01:10:32 <drac_boy> whats the most common ac electrification voltage? (excluding the recent highspeed-only lines which isn't what I quite had in mind)
01:11:25 * __ln___ has used trams in 9 countries, on 2 continents
01:12:49 <drac_boy> for dc I think it was 1500V wasn't it?
01:12:58 <drac_boy> Flygon ac not dc you silly aussie :P
01:14:14 <glx> 15kV 16 2/3 Hz and 25Kv 50Hz here
01:14:29 <Flygon> AC voltage in Australia?
01:14:57 <Flygon> But the only place AC is actually used is Queensland and South Australia
01:15:03 <drac_boy> hmm had thought it may had been 25 ... thanks
01:15:18 <drac_boy> so I guess thats it.. 1500vdc or 25000vac in tracking table then
01:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 15kV AC is used in germany, switzerland, austria and sweden
01:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> 25kV AC in the rest of the world
01:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (in the places that don't use DC)
01:17:14 <glx> many trains can run with more than 1 voltage
01:17:23 <drac_boy> japan had 20kV for some reason too tho
01:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the 15kV system is the older one
01:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is not so much the voltage, but rather the frequency
01:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 16 2/3 Hz vs. 50 Hz
01:20:27 <Flygon> It's kind of hilarious how Australia has a more unified Voltage than it does Rail Gauge :p
01:21:17 <glx> oh I though we had 15kV too, but we have not
01:21:31 <glx> it's just some trains can use it like Thalys
01:22:47 <__ln___> so while sweden/norway and germany have 15kV, the smart danes in between have chosen 25kV...
01:23:15 <Flygon> Sure sure, Thalys can do voltage change, but can it do a gauge change and solve Australia's problems? :D
01:23:42 <Flygon> C'mooooon Talgo, strut your stuff here someday...
01:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: interesting about the left/right track usage in france is that the switchover is (still) at the border of 1871
01:25:37 <glx> Flygon: why change gauge when almost all europe use standard gauge ?
01:25:47 <Flygon> Because Spain uses a different gauge :p
01:25:54 <glx> well except the silly spanish ;)
01:26:05 <Flygon> And Russia, if you consider then European :p
01:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there are multi-gauge trains in europe
01:26:34 <Flygon> ...and if I really feel like extrapolating, Australia's sorta European... you guys certainly colonized the hell out of Australia :D
01:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> mostly to russia, but some also to spain (before they re-gauged their main lines)
01:27:00 <glx> was not a colony at the begining
01:27:31 <Flygon> glx: A Prison Colony is still a Colony
01:27:44 <Flygon> It just means that it's got more Irishmen than anything else
01:28:51 <Flygon> But, yeah, Eddi, didn't the Spanish end up implementing an on-the-go gauge switch system?
01:29:13 <drac_boy> glx interesting link and btw the 'DC advantage' page shows exactly why I actually liked it oddly
01:29:46 <drac_boy> 'simple technology' and 'suitable for lines with relatively short trains'
01:29:53 <drac_boy> or in another word: cheap
01:30:30 <Flygon> It's not cheap when you start electrifying long lines :p
01:30:40 <__ln___> what if Russia is using the (almost) standard gauge and the rest of Europe is non-standard?
01:30:46 <drac_boy> flygon one another thing tho is...
01:31:18 <drac_boy> with dc you can let substations join together anytime .. with ac you have to insulate each block or go into expensive sine-matching circuits
01:32:21 <drac_boy> flygon...beside think about this...
01:32:24 <Flygon> __ln___: Funny story about that. 1600mm was suppose to be standard gauge in Australia. But New South Wales went to 1435mm and told nobody else
01:32:44 <Flygon> Queensland's exempt from criticism because they used 1067mm gauge... which makes dual gauge rail trivial
01:32:55 <Flygon> glx: This is back in the 1840s and 1850s
01:33:17 <drac_boy> if the ac substation A was timed at 27ms after each minute ... and substation B was timed at 41ms after each minute ... that means the two waves would clash with each others..maybe shorten out
01:33:27 <drac_boy> but with dc ... two lines touch each other .. nothing happens
01:33:36 <drac_boy> sorry if that sound a bit dumbed down way to explain it
01:33:44 <Flygon> And what about high voltage DC? How practical is that?
01:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: 700.000 km vs. 200.000 km tells different :)
01:34:01 <Flygon> Would 25kV DC get rid of some of the attenuation issues?
01:34:28 <Flygon> That's the huge issue with DC here. Attenuation as hell.
01:34:44 <Flygon> To the point where lines are actually having capacity issues from substation load, not signalling
01:35:33 <Flygon> And to replace all the remaining 1500V DC trains with 25kV trains is... well
01:35:37 <__ln___> We have 1524mm (5 ft). Not sure if it's used anywhere else anymore, as Soviet Union chose 1520mm.
01:35:41 <Flygon> You'd be replacing more than 50% of the network
01:35:54 <Flygon> Er, 50% of the rollingstoc
01:36:19 <drac_boy> flygon don't know if I had told you before but anyway...
01:36:36 <drac_boy> one of the interesting thing about city-only (or close) low-voltage dc electrification is....
01:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: 4mm is usually within the allowed margins anyway
01:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: typically, the faster you go, the wider the track should be
01:37:12 <drac_boy> sometimes they simply take the third rail voltage .. feed it through a surge protection .. then directly to the controller n traction motor ... no need for any stepdown at all
01:37:32 <glx> soviet trains were fast ?
01:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. 1435mm could also be 1440mm on high speed lines
01:37:47 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, the two gauges are fully compatible in practice.
01:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: no, the other way around :)
01:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: i have heard of some wagons which were sold from a 750mm line to a 760mm line, and ran there without modifications
01:40:18 <drac_boy> Flygon btw any particular NG australia locomotive I should look at?
01:40:38 <Flygon> The entirety of Queensland
01:40:48 <Flygon> Worlds LARGEST 1067mm network
01:41:24 <Flygon> They've perfected parts of it to the point where they 1-up Japan easily
01:41:53 <Flygon> And I imagine they have good relations with South Africa :p
01:43:09 <drac_boy> well....no they didn't one-up japan sorry :P
01:43:27 <Flygon> I've yet to see a Japanese NG train beat 210km/h
01:43:42 <drac_boy> is it everyday service at that speed?
01:43:57 <Flygon> No, it caps between 160km/h to 177km/h @_@
01:44:02 <Flygon> Same as the rest of Australia
01:44:13 <Flygon> But, still, technically, fastest Australian train
01:44:36 <Flygon> (can't wait til V/Line upgrade some BG track and break QLD's record :p)
01:44:59 <drac_boy> heh well 160 .... japan got a little bit over 140 in the 1960s so I don't think I want to comment :P
01:45:21 <Flygon> Dunno what QLD got then
01:45:33 <Flygon> Their history isn't as well documented as the rest of the country
01:46:41 <Flygon> Can't imagine them getting 140 though
01:47:16 <Flygon> Vic and NSW getting over 160km/h was considered a miracle back then...
01:47:38 <Flygon> While QLD was still using rather old Steam Locos for actual services until the mid/late-70s
01:47:57 <Flygon> Which really really didn't help the perception that QLD is backwards as hell
01:48:10 <Flygon> As much as the Steam Loco themselves were probably pretty good
01:48:46 <Flygon> In fact, the first train to break 160km/h in Queensland wasn't a NG train
01:49:03 <drac_boy> flygon don't forget that japan had extended steam life .. only because they did not go into diesels much so non-electric lines for obvious reason had nothing else to use till the eventual DD15 etc finally
01:49:10 <Flygon> It was an SG branchline from New South Wales, using the XPT (a variant of the BR Intercity 125 train)
01:49:40 <Flygon> Japan has much shorter lines, compared to USA and Australia. I imagine the costs of steam was less expensive to Japan.
01:49:41 <drac_boy> even then passenger services at least had the KiHA which was a dmu
01:50:03 <Flygon> Meanwhile, Queensland has some of Austalia's longest lines @_@
01:50:28 <Flygon> Though, iirc, they did import some Diesels from Western Australia (who also use a large Narrow Gauge network, but mostly around Perth)
01:50:33 <drac_boy> flygon well you could count the number of japan diesel locomotives on a single short piece of paper .. seriously
01:50:42 <drac_boy> compared to a longer list for steam and several pages for electrics
01:50:59 <drac_boy> no wonder japan had steam for as long as they did
01:51:15 <Flygon> We won't show the Japanese lists of American, Australian, or Soviet Diesels, then :p
01:51:30 <drac_boy> flygon actually here's the funny thing...
01:51:51 <drac_boy> some of the early steam locomotives were direct american designs
01:52:04 <drac_boy> even the cowcatcher is....a bit too familiar
01:52:11 <Flygon> Isn't that because they got help from the Americans to build their early lines?
01:53:11 <drac_boy> so why was it gauged to something not 4'8? ;)
01:53:29 <Flygon> Because it was cheaper
01:53:40 <drac_boy> actually it wasn't quite that
01:53:45 <Flygon> Japan wanted to put a line through a mountainious region
01:53:54 <drac_boy> it was british who shipped the initial rolling stocks
01:53:54 <Flygon> Same reason Victoria used NG lines. Despite being historically BG crazy.
01:54:05 <drac_boy> and strangely enough these colony wagons were narrow gauge
01:54:17 <Dr_Tan> probably for the same reason
01:54:25 <Dr_Tan> easier to deploy in the mounitans
01:54:34 <drac_boy> dr_tan it may have been different had british shipped some of their own actual wagons over :)
01:54:41 <drac_boy> but who would know anymore :P
01:55:41 <Flygon> Perhaps they timetraveled to the future and saw Puffing Billy as the epitome of railways :p
01:57:06 <drac_boy> flygon but anyway by the time the 1950s was rolling on ... traffic was getting a bit bottlenecked ... and eventually after arguements including some personal ones the bullet design was eventually started .. and before you know it it eventually mushroomed to run all way north-south .. leaving the original rails for shorter distance trains alone instead
01:57:46 <Flygon> If they wanted a bullet train, they'd contact NSWGR and ask for the design specs of 3801 :p
01:59:20 <Flygon> The HSR that the Government wants to build here, probably wouldn't be independant rails all the way through
01:59:44 <Flygon> Apperantly it'll be cheaper to upgrade some existing rails along the route... good luck, they'll have to realign 90% of the route. :p
02:00:07 <drac_boy> here's another thing flygon...
02:00:34 <drac_boy> japan may have been slow with diesels but these days they may have some of the most advanced diesel in certain categories
02:00:56 <drac_boy> including tilting express dmu trains (for the hokoi island up north .. little electrification at all there)
02:01:15 <Flygon> Tilting Express Diesels, eh?
02:02:01 <drac_boy> yeah....since they couldn't upper the track speed for safety reason (sighting mainly) they simply made the curves "less curvy" hence higher average speed over the entire route nevertheless
02:02:19 <drac_boy> thats one of the good thing about tilting ... but japan sometimes was a bit too good at it
02:03:06 <drac_boy> flygon don't forget about that time uk tried it and found one "error" they should had not put there in first place....
02:03:16 <drac_boy> it tilted "a bit too well" that people got seasick :->
02:03:18 <Flygon> (also, Queensland actually bodged the Diesel and Electric Tilt Trains design a bit. Sure, it can go 210km/h+... but they used air for the tilt mechanism, to save money. It's apperantly uncomfortable)
02:03:44 <drac_boy> apparently you're not supposed to fully compensate (for lack of wording) the curvation ... only partially
02:03:54 <Flygon> Britian was still experimenting with the tilt mechanisms, they didn't know it'd happen like that
02:04:00 <Flygon> APT was a great concept
02:04:14 <Flygon> Would have worked great in Australia, especially New South Wales
02:04:55 <Flygon> The XPT in NSW is gimped by Victorian era curves... so it ends up @ 50-60km/h instead of 160km/h+
02:05:17 <Flygon> It's topped 193km/h (it's got lower gearing than the BR125)
02:05:35 <drac_boy> btw flygon canada had a bit of "spotty" history mainly from the government level (what else is new?) ...
02:06:15 <Flygon> (at least when Victoria decided to go for 160km/h+... they actually upgraded the damn tracks, and realigned them. :p)
02:06:55 <drac_boy> there was the TurboTrain that was quite reliable later on and quite fast but before it had been 100% ironed out the gov told VIA to look elsewhere .... at the taxpayer's cost ... and thats how the LRC came .. but soon it was found out that their mechanical cable-worked tilting was faulty a lot of the times so the train was rebuilt to never tilt ... and well meh ... don't ask what replaced the LRC after only a short time again
02:07:36 <Flygon> The Turbotrain had the potential for brilliance...
02:07:39 <Flygon> Shame it never happened
02:08:15 <drac_boy> even then the current EMD F40PH powered (diesel-electric) locomotive trains don't exactly have any worthy records ... it takes about the same time as a nonstopping car to travel between any two cities ... meaning about 100-120km/h average speed :|
02:09:09 <drac_boy> flygon the funny thing tho is that at least the canadian turbotrain fared better than the usa ones .. amtrak basically 'drove them into the ground' mainly over not understanding their higher maintenance needs
02:09:22 <Flygon> Don't more Canadians use coaches anyway? Partially due to how bad the train system is?
02:09:38 <drac_boy> when amtrak tried to sell the few trainsets they had left to canada ... all the 2 canada people found were basically "rusty scraps" with nothing that could be even salvaged at all
02:09:53 <drac_boy> so they didn't get anything except some small spare parts (chains, etc)
02:10:14 <Flygon> I can't believe it got THAT bad
02:11:33 <drac_boy> flygon btw the french-designed (as I think it was) RoHR turbine trains on amtrak were ok but they got sidelined for various reasons .. and mostly scrapped eventually just as well
02:12:29 <Flygon> Amtrak don't seem to handle high speed diesel/turbine trains well >_>"
02:12:58 <glx> I don't think it's better for low speed ;)
02:13:07 <drac_boy> flygon a bit funny thing tho is... the Acela electric locomotives? originally they were going to be of the push-pull kind .. but no fra stepped in saying no way to the cab control cars ... and so thats how they had to order double the locomotives in an expensive top-and-tail short train
02:13:27 <drac_boy> only in the last few years have they finally been deciding to spare money to add more coaches to these trains .. making it finally more or less worthy it
02:13:30 <Flygon> Both locos don't work at once?
02:13:40 <drac_boy> nothing like having two 8000HP engines with only like maybe five coaches etc
02:13:42 <Flygon> Or do they both push and pull?
02:13:56 <drac_boy> should had been just one 8000HP either pushing or pulling the coaches
02:14:07 <Flygon> I honestly thing you're better off with push-pulling anyway
02:14:17 <Flygon> More wheels driving the traction :p
02:14:21 <drac_boy> flygon tell that to the fra .... X_X
02:14:37 <Flygon> As in, push-pull here means, a loco on each end
02:15:38 <drac_boy> at least interestingly enough the GO commuter system in toronto (canada) fell past the fra radar or something me think
02:15:53 <drac_boy> they have one single locomotive dealing with up to 12 bilevel cars in both directions :)
02:16:15 <Flygon> Interestingly, the H-sets would have had just 1 loco, with the other end being cab controlled
02:16:24 <drac_boy> a few trains on occassional do get two locomotives but thats only due to crunching HEP loads (eg 16 coaches to power&heat)
02:16:29 <Flygon> But the unions found that disgraceful
02:16:40 <Flygon> And threatened to shut down the entire network unless there was a loco on each end
02:16:59 <Flygon> Or, at least, not drive that specific train :p
02:17:19 <Flygon> Mind: We have a LOT of level crossings here
02:24:14 <drac_boy> Flygon about that Class Y picture I found before...
02:24:23 <drac_boy> there was something a little alike to that in canada for a few years
02:25:11 <drac_boy> narrow gauge diesel locomotive .. even although it had been built specifically for that it still got the nickname "mutant geep" because it did resemble a standard GP with wide overhangs over its track :)
02:25:40 <Flygon> That wouldn't surprise me
02:25:57 <Flygon> The push-pull locomotives in the pic I just show, are native 1600mm ones...
02:26:03 <Flygon> But have been built on 1067mm too
02:26:17 <Flygon> Luckily, loading gauge was the sam
02:26:27 <drac_boy> and yes the axles do look like they are "tucked under"
02:26:49 <Flygon> Can barely see the wheels O_O
02:27:02 <drac_boy> yeah the running boards extended out wider :)
02:28:20 <drac_boy> flygon and its not just that one ... you know of the PCC trams?
02:28:46 <Flygon> We tested a PCC design here
02:28:55 <Flygon> It wasn't successful. Only one cab :(
02:29:29 <drac_boy> in at least one usa city .. they were ordered to standard or wide body .... on 3'6 trucks .. giving it a strange "hovering" effect because unless you shine a low light directly at it you can not even see anything in the dark black wheel wells :)
02:29:35 <drac_boy> let me see if I can find that one
02:31:50 <drac_boy> most other ppc trams had it visible as it was only 1-2 inches far from the skirt due to standard gauge tracks
02:32:06 <drac_boy> but these green ones.... normal body + narrow gauge = eh
02:32:16 <Flygon> It really does hover O_o
02:32:46 <drac_boy> flygon also as you noticed..they were ordered with the extra-long body too...hence the middle doors
02:33:19 <drac_boy> normally its only two doors on the standard length ones after all
02:33:59 <Flygon> I don't think Melbourne ever got unarticulated 3 door trams
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02:34:39 <drac_boy> flygon btw aside to the "green hornet" for their unusual narrow gauge take ... there were also a few PCC that were actually ordered with MU controls .. even if not all of them actually got used in pairs
02:34:56 <drac_boy> I assume they were 2-crew worked by then .. one driver and one ticket-only conductor
02:35:16 <drac_boy> (after all someone had to still staff the second one)
02:35:47 <Flygon> Melbourne never had MU trams
02:36:08 <Flygon> Adelaide does, however
02:36:47 <Flygon> Though, trams in Melbourne can tow... but it's not true MU, obviously
02:40:05 <Flygon> The Gleneng MU trams can operate in MU in Melbourne, however
02:46:56 <drac_boy> so flygon what are you doing now anyway? :)
02:52:51 <drac_boy> me I'm a bit busy trying to figure out some suggestive locomotive specs while talking on irc :)
02:53:07 <drac_boy> especially trying to balance the few 40-50kph ones
02:53:32 <drac_boy> I'm still wondering if 50kph should be the minimum or 40 is ok
02:53:42 <Flygon> Depends on the freight
02:53:56 <Flygon> Le Belge is nearly useless, though
02:54:34 <Flygon> Though, Australia's first locos are British imports...
02:54:35 <drac_boy> this is 1920 and upward mind you :)
02:55:59 <Flygon> OpenTTD needs a more variatous Victorian era game
02:57:54 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd
03:04:45 <drac_boy> btw I finally thought of what I wanted to do with the third track type..but its hmm a bit of surprise so I'll wait for the public version of tracking table first :P
03:05:30 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
03:05:49 <drac_boy> not sure if theres anyone here for a newgrf question again but hmm anyway....
03:07:08 <drac_boy> can you only have a fixed or variable train consist or is a mix of both somewhat plausible? say you buy what is a 4-car MU set but it still allows you to add more individual coaches to make it longer than 4 if needed ... you just can't remove it to <4
03:09:22 <Flygon> Can you have two motor cars in an EMU
03:09:43 <Flygon> And specify if trailers are motored or not?
03:10:01 <Flygon> Comeng/Hitachi trains are... interesting :p
03:11:19 <drac_boy> actually someone mentioned it before..use the wagon callback I think?
03:11:36 <drac_boy> or was it a loco callback for wagons? either way it should be under action0 or callbacks I think
03:13:59 <drac_boy> hmmm whats another word to use for 'passengers' .. something shorter maybe :s
03:18:19 <drac_boy> nevermind...might be better tomorrow..going to sleep now -_-
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11:59:45 <Bad_Brett> what are you up to?
12:00:53 <drac_boy> thinking about locomotives a bit, you?
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12:06:43 * drac_boy could like some bridges but sees thats on the bottom of the todo list tho :p
12:08:25 <Bad_Brett> what project are you working on again?
12:11:30 <drac_boy> more or less a 'generic country' grf set? :->
12:13:11 <Bad_Brett> cool, do you have a developement thread at the forums?
12:15:23 <drac_boy> no...may have a small website up when the table's ready for public tho
12:22:09 <Bad_Brett> i seldom stick to the toto list... it's so boring :)
12:22:21 <Bad_Brett> toto list? that doesn't sound good...
12:23:25 <peter1138> could be worse, could be the tutu list
12:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> *must*get*picture*out*of*head*
12:33:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, I should see to making an improved world map heightmap, aswell as one for africa, and at least two polar projection square world height maps
12:34:11 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use one of the projections that produce a rectangle standing on its edge. use one that fits better in a rectangle standing on the corner
12:35:35 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't follow
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12:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> most projections out there try to map the world onto a sheet of paper
12:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that necessarily means that the northern and southern regions are stretched out
12:38:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> yes, I know about map distortions
12:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you have an OTTD world, the map stands on a corner, so you need to draw the northern and southern regions together
12:38:37 <InducTrackerOTTD> "stands on a corner" I have no idea what yo mean
12:39:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't see how it matters, in which direciton the grid is rotated
12:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the OTTD map is narrow at the top and bottom, the "sheet of paper" is not
12:39:59 <Flygon> OpenTTD could really use a map system where you can go left and right
12:40:07 <Flygon> Like in Civilization/SMACX
12:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have completely different goals of a projection
12:40:13 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: you can rotate a world map you know
12:40:31 <InducTrackerOTTD> I do not have different goals, from projecting the sphere to a flat plane
12:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: but then north is not north anymore
12:40:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: so what?
12:40:57 <InducTrackerOTTD> I can put north to bottom+right if I wish, you know =)
12:41:08 <InducTrackerOTTD> also, north is north whichever way you rotate a map
12:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: it's a problem a lot of "heightmaps" have, because they stupidly and senselessly rotate the map by 45° (to make it easier)
12:41:29 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: I don't see any "stupidity" or "lack of sense" in such a practice
12:41:46 <InducTrackerOTTD> Well, you apply that to your own heightmap designs, will ya? =)
12:41:49 <Flygon> Depends on the hightmap
12:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i apply that to all my heightmaps :)
12:42:20 <InducTrackerOTTD> PS: you might be into pseudocylindrical projections if you go experimenting with rhomboid maps
12:44:28 <Flygon> I tried rotating my own heightmap by 45 degrees, but got unwanted distortions
12:45:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: altho I will have to agree that with polar-centered azimuthal equidistant projection ... the orientation, in one sense becomes agnostic to our dispute =D
12:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: civ-y maps have their own problems
12:49:52 <InducTrackerOTTD> I love me some hex based civ maps
12:49:59 <Flygon> Such as that they can't go all directions...
12:50:07 <Flygon> Only Up-Down or Left-Right
12:50:24 <Flygon> Unless you have a literal flat earth :p
12:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: civ4 can go toroidal as well (at least in the space mod)
12:50:38 <Flygon> I've only played CivII and SMACX
12:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a SMAC mod for Civ4 :)
12:51:02 <Flygon> Reverse engineering the SMACX heightmap method would be cool
12:51:26 <Flygon> Use OpenTTD heightmaps in SMACX :D
12:52:34 <Flygon> Civ4 lacks an altitude system
12:52:46 <Flygon> But the issue is... SMACX heightmaps are more complex than OpenTTD
12:52:51 <Flygon> Due to having oceanic depth
12:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the SMAC mod uses a simplified height mechanism (basically only 2 height levels above sea)
12:54:28 <Flygon> SMACX had any altitude from -3500 to 3500 :p
12:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> low, medium and high
12:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> where you can't go from low to high with normal units
12:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (only helicopters and formers)
12:59:53 <drac_boy> theres no way to tell if vehiclepool is on or off from grf or is there?
13:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: checked the global patch flags?
13:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> | ((_settings_game.vehicle.dynamic_engines ? 1 : 0) << 0x18) // dynamic engines
13:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: PS: the "vehlicle pool" is always on
13:07:34 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause so you mean ottd doesn't care if two incompactibe classes clashes together or does it at least disable one of two grf when that happens?
13:07:47 <drac_boy> just wondering re that
13:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a) you have a complete misunderstanding what the "vehicle pool" is, and b) openttd separates the two engines if "dynamic engines" [aka "allow multiple vehicle sets"] is set, otherwise one just overwrites the other
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13:12:42 <drac_boy> oh hm overwrite sounds a bit better...sorry for asking
13:21:47 <drac_boy> going for a bit now..have too much to type on my own now anyway :p
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14:53:05 <Belugas> sir maker :) glad to salute you back!
14:53:30 <Belugas> heading for a party of Doom Day friday?
14:54:46 <planetmaker> :-) I haven't yet planned for that, admittedly :-)
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15:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> where does one get DOOM from nowadays?
15:16:54 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: FOUR MORE DAYS AND WE ARE ALL DOOMED! THE END IS NIGH!
15:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> my steam doesn't work :/
15:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that bad when it works...
15:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but it suddenly stopped logging in
15:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> some kind of networking problem
15:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't isolate it
15:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody else has that problem :/
15:21:55 <Bad_Brett> i don't like the idea that they can shut down my account, with all my games, without a warning
15:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that is indeed a problem of the "cloud" times
15:23:27 <Bad_Brett> yep... you don't really buy games from steam, you rent them... i think it's a dirty business
15:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you _can_ use steam in offline mode...
15:35:10 <Pinkbeas1> Or, more to the point, shut it down because they assert the right to vary the T&Cs as they please and want to bring in a change to your disadvantage.
15:35:32 *** Pinkbeas1 is now known as Pinkbeast
15:35:55 <Pinkbeast> ... which is flagrantly unenforcable under EU law, but what are you going to do, sue them?
15:36:11 <Pinkbeast> And which has happened already with the changes to class action law in the US.
15:36:41 <Pinkbeast> I honestly trusted Valve to have got digital distribution right. Apparently, I'm a mug. I don't want to live in a world where RMS is always right in the end, but I do.
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16:13:57 <Bad_Brett> great, thanks for asking!
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16:14:13 <Bad_Brett> let me have your opinion on something
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16:16:55 <Bad_Brett> i made a bold move and decided to try to add shadows to my bridges, which is kind of impossible...
16:17:16 <Bad_Brett> so the question is: do you think it looks weird?
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16:23:41 <LordAro> and probably completely impossible to do well for all situations
16:23:55 <LordAro> but, like all other things you do, looks awesome :)
16:30:44 <Bad_Brett> yeah i know... the problem is that this requires some overlapping
16:31:03 <Bad_Brett> which means that the shadows will be darker on higher bridges
16:31:23 <peter1138> that does look fucking awesome
16:31:33 <peter1138> if only our bridge heights weren't so wacky :-(
16:34:49 <Bad_Brett> but it's quite fun to try to get around the limitations
16:46:59 <drac_boy> I always did wonder about "max bridge height limit" but it seem impossible to possibly code something like that in :/
16:47:08 <drac_boy> at least max bridge length works for whats needed of it
16:49:29 <drac_boy> nothing like making a bridge be only buildable one single height level high I guess :->
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16:52:19 <Bad_Brett> my feeling is that very few players build high bridges
16:52:38 <LordAro> that would probably be true
16:52:48 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett well there are certain bridge sprites that shouldn't be built so high up .. they look weird with skinny tall piers you know?
16:53:08 <peter1138> i was refering to bridges being 8 pixels higher than the ground, and vehicles being 12-14 pixels tall (at standard zoom)
16:53:32 <drac_boy> did anyone actually build a bricks viaduct that was more than 2km high up up there? I doubt the bricks themself were made for that were they?
16:54:11 <peter1138> a 2km high viaduct? no, i don't think such a thing exists ;p
16:54:57 <Bad_Brett> that would be insane
16:55:29 <drac_boy> well Bad_Brett thats what it looks like in arctic maps tbh
16:55:36 <drac_boy> even if its scale isn't quite perfect
16:56:56 <peter1138> that is a pretty impressive viaduct though
16:56:57 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett and then theres a lot of bridges that would be perfect if they were limited to only 1 tiles height ... especially the ones used by real railroads to cross wet lands a few feet high up
16:57:33 <peter1138> the road deck is 270 metres above the base of the valley
16:57:50 <Bad_Brett> hopefully bridges will get implemented in nml in the future
16:58:04 <Bad_Brett> heh, i just googled that one as well :)
16:58:17 <drac_boy> its only one horizontal beam .. and some cheap vertical woods ... not very stable but for a low height it didn't matter
16:58:22 <peter1138> that's basically what the wood bridge is for, heh
16:58:47 <drac_boy> peter1138 then where's one rated for 100kph yet? :)
16:59:07 <peter1138> crazy, that thing could snap any time ;p
16:59:50 <drac_boy> well they were common across usa .. even with modern Dash-CW units running across them
16:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: unpassable bridges like this might be possible as "objects with statemachine"
16:59:55 <Bad_Brett> that one kinda looks like my bridge
17:00:13 <drac_boy> and believe it or not but a Dash-CW is kinda heavy n fast ;)
17:00:47 <drac_boy> its only standard wood framed trestles that are often removed for metal version because they're too old and/or light
17:00:58 <drac_boy> but the low-marsh bridges often stay for a very long time
17:02:12 <drac_boy> could work for higher heights too tho..just make the piers thicker
17:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i'm fairly sure the more-heightlevels-patch has a maximum bridge height
17:03:03 <peter1138> hmm, best to avoid the london tube on 13th jan
17:03:10 <peter1138> they're gonna run a steam train on it
17:03:12 <drac_boy> mm sounds good. I was just throwing comments around tho. I don't really understand in-game bridges that much anyway
17:03:36 <drac_boy> what do any of you think about concrete bridges btw?
17:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> concrete in opposition to abstract?
17:04:23 <drac_boy> as in compared to steel I guess
17:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> or as in made of cement mixture
17:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's there to think about?
17:05:10 <peter1138> it better be reinforced
17:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the german word is "Spannbeton"
17:05:40 <drac_boy> meh .. anyway for me I like them both small and large providing the top is insulated in some way (ballast or rubber layer on top etc) re vibratation reduction
17:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea how to translate that
17:05:59 <drac_boy> doesn't have rust issue unlike steel .. although cheap sand or water can be an issue
17:06:28 <drac_boy> one of the major bridge built to replace a twisty steep rail route in usa ... is still there in original condition more than 50 years later
17:06:31 <Bad_Brett> this would be a cool disaster in OpenTTD:
17:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> concrete has the problem of lower lifetime
17:07:44 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett I doubt they really could do it anymore nowaday especially with regulations and unions red tapes all over the place but ....
17:08:50 <drac_boy> used to be if a major link bridge fell either due to accident or really bad weather ... the military could help .. and pretty much put a "temporary" steel bridge in in only a few weeks or less. sometimes in some case it was sturdy enough to be left there for permament instead
17:09:04 <drac_boy> 1920-1950's is where I recall reading a lot of stories about these
17:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: bridge washouts was certainly one of the most annoying parts of railroad tycoon
17:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (next to the station limit)
17:09:44 <drac_boy> in one case the route was through a mountain that had lot of snowslide problems ... after rescuing the derailed train from the valley ... the military put a new bridge up in only 9 days against all the snow swalls
17:09:47 <Bad_Brett> you just have to build stone bridges
17:10:03 <drac_boy> I mean .. think about it .. a remote location high up in mountain .. and NINE DAYS for a full bridge?!
17:10:08 <drac_boy> they sure could work fast
17:10:21 <Bad_Brett> nine days? sounds insane
17:10:30 <drac_boy> aye...the old days sure were different eh?
17:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, during the last phase of WWII, the nazis destroyed pretty much every bridge on their retreat
17:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so bridge building skills would surely come in handy for the allied army
17:12:55 <drac_boy> theres that too yeah
17:13:04 <drac_boy> also on both sides they sometimes had to do regauging too
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17:22:13 <drac_boy> anyway need to figure out lunch as usual -_-
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18:45:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24824 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-17 18:45:40 UTC)
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:53 <DorpsGek> korean - 83 changes by telk5093
18:45:54 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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19:00:34 <Terkhen> how are things going? :)
19:01:10 <andythenorth> I could use more time :P
19:01:22 <andythenorth> apart from students, who have an abundance of the stuff
19:01:41 <andythenorth> even my kids want more time to play
19:01:47 <Terkhen> since I'm not a student anymore, my time is quite scarce
19:01:47 <andythenorth> bath time comes far too early for them
19:02:46 <Terkhen> lately I only have time for a single task each evening before dinner :P
19:03:02 <andythenorth> dinner is the task :P
19:03:14 <andythenorth> except when my wife kindly makes it (most days) :P
19:03:59 <Terkhen> if I cooked real food I would have even less time :P
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20:22:00 <andythenorth> this is a 4,000hp locomotive
20:22:17 <andythenorth> this appears to be common in former soviet union
20:22:35 <andythenorth> or some guys really like taking pictures of single coach trains with 4,000hp locomotives
20:22:57 <Alberth> it doesn't look that way :)
20:25:46 <Alberth> not exciting at all :)
20:26:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are they a little short on electrification?
20:27:21 <andythenorth> they apparently are short on 1,000hp railcars :P
20:27:32 <FLHerne> No-one's built any diesels much more powerful than a Deltic here, because we have 5000hp electrics :-)
20:27:43 <FLHerne> Although your second one is an electric :P
20:28:20 * FLHerne appears to have entirely missed the point on the first attempt :P
20:28:33 <FLHerne> Nice single-car loco-hauled trains :-)
20:29:19 <andythenorth> the new UK ugly things are 3,690hp
20:32:56 <FLHerne> Both are hideous, just a choice between 'nasty smoothed boxy lumps' or 'weirdly blobby' :P
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21:11:12 <InducTrackerOTTD> Them soviet stile locos sure look familiar there, andythenorth =)
21:11:36 <InducTrackerOTTD> Not the single coach chaining, but the loco
21:12:58 <InducTrackerOTTD> Also, shortage of electrification is present, FLHerne =(
21:15:08 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Thought so :P
21:15:48 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm pretty sure those carriages are trailing there for ferry run crew comfort/safety or whatever
21:15:57 <FLHerne> Is that rumour that many Soviet diesels are quite direct descendants of 'Kestrel' true?
21:16:01 <InducTrackerOTTD> or is that called transit
21:16:04 <Alberth> drac_boy: found a new bug in Mercurial :p
21:16:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> I have no idea what a Kestrel is, also, I'm not educated in locomotive geneaolgy
21:16:41 <InducTrackerOTTD> Mercurial still > than Git, right?
21:18:16 <FLHerne> Built as a state-of-the-art demonstrator loco for BR, then sold to the USSR in 1971 for some reason :P
21:18:58 <Alberth> drac_boy: basically, it keeps track of the changes that you make in your files (at the moment you want). You can later look at them, search them, give them to others, etc
21:19:32 <Alberth> very useful for writing patches of a certain transport simulation game :p
21:19:44 <FLHerne> Some people insist that some/many Soviet loco designs are derived from it in some way ;-)
21:21:00 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: I do know a quite different tipe of propulsion engine by the name of Kestrel tho =D
21:21:18 * drac_boy rather go with git thank you
21:22:02 <drac_boy> flherne mm btw when I was talking with someone (brett or flygon..I forgot) the mention of BR APT came up ... I thought I recall that almost all problems with it were solved but they sold the technology to another country instead?
21:22:53 <drac_boy> FLHerne now now...don't ask about politicians and rails in north america....or you'll get badly torched ;)
21:23:50 <FLHerne> Same happened to TSR-2, and the early peroxide rockets, and far too many other things :-(
21:24:20 <drac_boy> VIA - turbotrain was a bit hard at first but slowly became very reliable ... but gov told them to look elsewhere and they got the troublesome LRC instead (its tilting was eventually removed) ...
21:24:43 <drac_boy> and don't ask about amtrak's several "quits" on highspeed trains till they finally got these overpriced underused (at the time) Acela locomotives
21:25:14 <drac_boy> I still wonder about the few days an ICE-1 train actually ran in northeast usa :p
21:26:15 <FLHerne> We still don't have domestic HSR here :-(
21:27:23 <FLHerne> We do have a lot more >100mph running than in the US, IIRC, but nothing >125mph except the Eurostars...
21:27:52 <FLHerne> Annoyingly, there are three train fleets designed for 140mph but not permitted to run that fast
21:28:11 <FLHerne> And of course APT was built for 155mph in the 80s :-(
21:29:55 * Rubidium wonders why every country reinvents the high speed train with all its initial faults
21:30:38 <Rubidium> e.g. the V250 which, after four years of testing, manages to arrive at the destination in a whopping 3 out of 4 times
21:35:29 <andythenorth> the brakes smell funny
21:35:37 <InducTrackerOTTD> I wonder how long until turbine-electric hybrid locos replace diesle-electrics =D
21:35:40 <andythenorth> and they arsed about with APT for years before HST
21:35:56 <andythenorth> UK runs some of the fastest point-point passenger trains in the world
21:37:04 <andythenorth> we don't have the track for them :P
21:37:16 <Rubidium> mostly because they are known to run on the track where the V250 runs
21:37:19 <andythenorth> we run insanely fast on existing lines, mostly built around 1840-1850 :P
21:37:58 <Rubidium> (since those Thalyses are already running there)
21:38:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I seem to remember, somewhere, that in the UK the fastest (timetabled) trains ran on steam
21:38:53 <andythenorth> maybe once upon a time :P
21:39:03 <Rubidium> maybe now the Eurostar beats them, but that might not be quite true
21:39:10 <Rubidium> since they are *slow* in the tunnel
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22:15:54 <drac_boy> that reminds me, are turbines only good for nonstop express trains or probably theres other uses too?
22:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> turbines are probably rather one of the total oddities
22:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you have an engine that produces 8000hp, and needs 6000hp of it to keep running, the other 2000hp are useful for traction etc.
22:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> only few of these entered service throughout europe
22:23:00 <drac_boy> I know there were a few turbine trainsets too .. can't imagine how having a turbine located several inches underneath the seats must had been like tho?
22:23:11 <drac_boy> french one for example as I recall ^
22:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g some of the german TEE trains (Trans Europ Express) were refitted with turbines, to get more power
22:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and some diesel engines as well, but those had technical troubles so they stopped using the turbine
22:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and ran only with the remaining conventional engine
22:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. with half power than originally)
22:24:52 <Kjetil> I'm still waiting for the Umbrella corp. nuclear powered train
22:25:09 <drac_boy> reminds me of one site about early uk locomotives for industrial lines...
22:25:55 <drac_boy> apparently the petrol/diesel engines they used were sometimes weak on power that at least one company sold a boiler+diesel locomotive that used steam to get moving then diesel to keep it going .. but it did not quite work so well tho
22:26:21 <drac_boy> at least a few more years later the engines were strong enogh that the varying 0-4-0T's finally looked like they would be 'old' for good
22:28:56 <drac_boy> Kjetil that would have a lot of problem in real life .. but in-game .. why not? ;)
22:30:50 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: hence why they are a perfect match for electric-hybrid, rather than e-direct drive
22:31:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> only turning them over for max power, for however long charging the storage takes
22:31:35 <drac_boy> electric should be straight electric silly
22:31:57 <InducTrackerOTTD> drac_boy: I'm not talking about electric electric, but a transmission technology for IC locos
22:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: german engines tend to be diesel-hydraulic
22:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not diesel-electric
22:32:29 <InducTrackerOTTD> yeah well, diesels are known for having a wider tolerable working speed range
22:32:53 <InducTrackerOTTD> hybrid, my emphasis was on hybrid, obviously
22:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is why the fastest trains were electric ones?
22:33:20 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm not even talking about speed here
22:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: you are not making any sense
22:33:41 <InducTrackerOTTD> freighters seem to be the most frequent applications for non-grid powered locos
22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> please start your thought from the beginning
22:34:24 <InducTrackerOTTD> There's no beginning to something endless =)
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22:36:38 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm saying, with the way tech is developing, I'm hoping it's soon that turbines start giving some competition to diesel locos again
22:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a dead technology
22:37:59 <drac_boy> yeah .. turbines were only good for long non-stop trains .. which is exactly where HS electrficiation already leaves us at anyway
22:38:51 <drac_boy> you have to admit UP for running a few different types for as long as they did till Bunker C finally wasn't a cheap "waste" from refineries
22:39:35 <drac_boy> hm by HS I meant High Speed ... tgv, ice, take your name
22:40:15 <michi_cc> Indeed. All the modern advancements of turbine efficiency are mostly only usable for constant (high) power output. Trains don't need constant high power. They need a big peak to accelerate and then almost idle to hold speed.
22:40:23 <InducTrackerOTTD> That's only ture because historical turbine locos were forced to power the loco on turbine power continuously, with electric hybrid transmission technology applied to locos that is no longer the case. turbine only runs at max efficiency to generate electricity when the charge is low enough, not directly propelling the train
22:41:20 <drac_boy> michi_cc interestingly enough thats why GM has been pushing diesel/battery-drive buses to certain locations ... after all for example the 200hp engine is always on to provide cruising speed and climate loads while the battery more or less deals with accerlations
22:41:23 <InducTrackerOTTD> energy storage technologies that would've enabled duty cycling a turbine like that didn't exist
22:41:39 <drac_boy> better than a 420hp engine thats working full time at accerlation but then has little use when already moving basically
22:41:58 <InducTrackerOTTD> which is where electric drive comes to help out
22:42:22 <InducTrackerOTTD> turbine doesn't even need to deliver the peak power, the storage pack and drive motors do
22:43:21 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Duty cycling a turbine is the easiest way to prematurely break it. High fuel efficiency means high burning temperature. Alternating between high temperatures and low temperatures for idle will break every material very fast.
22:44:05 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: you forget that pre-heating technologies in automotive products are proving themselves right now
22:44:09 <drac_boy> michi_cc indeed ... I can't imagine even modern steel being able to deal with going between 100C and 500C many times a day without getting brittle or something
22:44:43 <InducTrackerOTTD> designing a turbine with external heating in mind should be a trivial matter, compared to designing a wide power range turbine
22:44:43 <michi_cc> And a turbine/battery hybrid doesn't make economic sense. For a few hp's diesel engines will simply be a lot cheaper.
22:45:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> except that's not true, diesels are only cheaper due to scale of manufacturing
22:45:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> inherently turbines are simpler mechanically, and should be cheaper and more reliable
22:46:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> Certanly, as you mentioned, high temperatures bring their own problems to material's technology. Still, I'd place my bet on that, rather than the hundreds or thousand sof moving/reciprocating parts
22:48:17 <michi_cc> drac_boy: We're not talking about 500°C, modern engines have flame temperatures in excess of 2200°C at full load. Not exactly a good target for pre-heating.
22:49:10 <InducTrackerOTTD> Yeah well, I'm sure the flame-heads will think of something, induction heating or what have you =)
22:49:34 <drac_boy> michi_cc mm yeah I was just using a random number to remark about wide temperature changes
22:50:03 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm pretty hopeful about a few years of automotive experiments in marketing the same will re-ignite interest in locomotive research into that. I was recently reminded that the former is still only just an idea on paper =\
22:50:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> So there goes my turbine exhaust pipe dream for now =D
22:50:42 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Uselessly heating something to 2200°C is somewhat incompatible with energy efficient. Better skip the turbine and use the energy directly for propulsion.
22:51:47 <InducTrackerOTTD> How do you figure really? AFAIK turbines would use recuperators, so within the best of our ability exhaust heat is recaptured into the inputs again
22:51:54 <Sturmi> preheating to 2k C quite incompatible to steel too ;)
22:52:13 <InducTrackerOTTD> high temp turbines ain't your garden variety steel anyway
22:52:16 <InducTrackerOTTD> hot zone stuff
22:52:34 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: it's also not just heat for heat's sake, it's all for expanding gas =)
22:54:05 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
22:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: i think you're missing the point. the problem was keeping the heat while the turbine is idle, to prevent excessive wear on the material
22:56:45 <drac_boy> that does remind me michi_cc do you think diesel is the 'best' fuel for a small 1.4L 4-inline engine? something like say a light industrial railway locomotive or mm yeah
22:57:32 <InducTrackerOTTD> Grah, linux headaches
22:58:21 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: What sort?
22:58:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause, michi_cc: also, bearings are doubtfully at combustion chamber temperatures, and Eddi, as I was arguing with michi, in the case we're viewing, there's no need to maintain idling
22:58:34 * FLHerne has been having them today too :-(
22:58:53 <InducTrackerOTTD> dunno, over-extended firefox or flash(unlikely) fudged up my window manager, FLHerne
22:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: kwin --replace
22:59:11 <InducTrackerOTTD> terminating FF in tty did the trick
22:59:40 <michi_cc> Diesel has the most energy per volume among the easily usable fuels, so diesel engines will generally use less fuel. It's definitely not the best for pollution though.
22:59:45 <InducTrackerOTTD> But now my handicapped WM is steering me to reboot
23:00:04 <InducTrackerOTTD> burning diesel fuel in a turbine would improve on that =P
23:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it would produce more pollution for sure ;)
23:00:45 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Use a less handicapped WM :P
23:00:48 <drac_boy> michi_cc NOx or something else was it?
23:00:58 <drac_boy> I think I was suppose to remember but I'm not sure
23:01:03 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: it's only handicapped after it gets shelled D=
23:01:16 <FLHerne> Restart the WM, then?
23:01:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> It would produce less pollution for certain ;)
23:01:32 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: what's the point, my xorg dependent apps are hooked on it
23:01:45 <michi_cc> Big oil turbines need to employ things like water injection to manage somewhat sane pollution levels.
23:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: since when do xorg apps "depend" on a window manager?
23:02:17 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Nope, restarting the WM shouldn't be a problem
23:02:26 <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, got some educational reading on that topic, that you can recall, michi_cc?
23:02:55 <FLHerne> If doing stuff to the WM affects an app, that app is being very unusual :-/
23:03:09 <michi_cc> drac_boy: Everything really. The longer the hydrocarbon molecules, the harder it is to get a clean reaction. It's all downhill starting from methane.
23:03:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: I've argued that in my distro's troll cave enough already, it takes unmanageable hours of educating little me to figure out the relevant processes, I don't even screen my IRC or anything
23:03:58 <FLHerne> openbox --replace is my usual response to WM failure :P
23:04:14 <drac_boy> methane......can you say......farting? (seriously I have seem some weird tv shows about the danger of farting gas especially when lighting up a pipe in the bathroom)
23:04:35 <FLHerne> Or just killall kwin;kwin
23:05:07 <FLHerne> If I still want to keep the shinyness for some reason
23:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: how large are the chances he actually meant the desktop environment instead of the window manager?
23:05:35 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: No idea. I don't know him or his competence level
23:05:43 <InducTrackerOTTD> Doesn't seem like --replace is something my Awesome (not so much?) mentions
23:05:53 * FLHerne assumes people are competent until proven otherwise :-)
23:06:14 <InducTrackerOTTD> Save yourself some time and assume nothing? =p
23:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: dunno, some of the last sentences made me doubt :)
23:06:26 <drac_boy> anyway one little thing I had been wondering about....
23:06:37 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Section R of the Dubbel or the my old turbomachinery script. The prof used to develop turbines at Siemens. But unless you know German it won't really help you :)
23:07:11 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: There's no point asking someone if they're competent :P
23:07:25 <FLHerne> If they aren't, they don't know :P
23:07:32 <drac_boy> I know that high speed trains slow down at curve unless they can compensate with tilting....but the question is...if it was a freight-only train (mails, crated goods, whatever) could the nontilting train still take curve faster because its only the cab crew that have to mind their likely-padded seat but noone else
23:07:34 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: I think it would be a semi-nice motivation to refresh my german skills =D
23:07:41 <FLHerne> So it's necessary to assume something
23:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and if they are, they're too smart to admit it :)
23:08:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> No I'm not suggesting flat out asking first, that would be a waste of time, but I'm suggesting not assuming as a first step, and always deriving the answer to whether or not on the go
23:08:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> This... sounds like me needing some sleep
23:09:02 <KenjiE20> drac_boy: don't mail trains have sorting offices on them.. so they would probably have to abide the same way pax would
23:09:41 <drac_boy> KenjiE20 mm I was assuming it was only stored bags ... already processed before it got to the station
23:10:12 <KenjiE20> I know our overnight stuff have(had) sorting in transit
23:10:47 <michi_cc> Not my script obviously, but I except a lot of it ended up in that book.
23:11:06 <drac_boy> heh well KenjiE20 I guess I should mention 'uncrewed freights' then perhaps?
23:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but then you'd have to define a timetable variable based on the cargo
23:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a horrible nightmare
23:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and freight trains aren't optimised for speed anyway
23:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a total waste of everybodys time
23:13:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: thanks
23:15:02 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause then why are a lot of things airfreighted even although theres no route that can't be paralleled by a high speed line? maybe I shouldn't bother trying understand that :)
23:15:24 <drac_boy> sea airfreight I can understand since ships don't have any means to go really fast at reasonable cost
23:15:45 <KenjiE20> drac_boy: rail networks are often far too full of pax to squeeze a cargo in
23:16:45 <drac_boy> KenjiE20 tell that to the yellow tgv trainsets? and even although its not exactly normal freight .. what about the vehicles on eurostar especially loaded lorries
23:16:51 <InducTrackerOTTD> You know, I was pondering ekranoplan ships for openttd the other day
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23:26:02 <drac_boy> hm anyway for now I guess I'll go with slight higher speeds for non-pax
23:26:20 <literal> has the option to anchor the landscaping tools to the railway tools been removed? I can't find it
23:33:31 <glx> drac_boy: yellow tgv is postal service
23:35:04 <drac_boy> glx my point...its freight technically
23:35:21 <glx> but only runs during night
23:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it also runs on lines that don't really have speed-limiting curves
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23:48:23 <drac_boy> slightly on another topic - sometimes I wonder if andy and/or george ever run into the problem of trying not to make too-long industry chains
23:49:25 <drac_boy> one I could imagine would be oil > refined oil > chemicals (+wood) > paper > goods > [town] ... would be quite a network just to get that one cargo done with
23:49:57 <drac_boy> at least theres a lot of simple ones like coal>powerplant or even oil>fuel>town
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23:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> long chains are not necessarily more difficult than heavily interconnected chains
23:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> if you find a sane design, you can run it past andy for an "economy"
23:52:24 <drac_boy> true I guess it depends on what kind of network style you like
23:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> or make an own set
23:52:47 <drac_boy> heh yeah that I keep thinking about ... trains and cargos first tho :)
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