IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-11-21
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07:32:44 <planetmaker> Supercheese, how do you use terminal bus stops to filter for articulated vehicles? You cannot send them there in the first place... Or do you mean manual filtering?
07:32:50 <planetmaker> good morning everyone
07:33:03 <Supercheese> No, in theory though
07:34:05 <Supercheese> oh, I mean filter out non-articulated
07:34:52 <Supercheese> what did I type...
07:35:11 <Supercheese> I typed what I meant
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07:45:04 <thegcat> a quick google didn't really yield a good answer: is it known that OpenTTD seems/is slow in Retina displays?
07:45:43 <Markk> Are you sure that it's the display that's the problem?
07:45:46 <thegcat> the speed it runs at feels slower on the retina display than on an external 1920x1080 display
07:46:05 <thegcat> (and yes, both cases with the discrete graphics card)
07:47:06 <thegcat> it even feels like OTTD stumbles forward "faster" when a window (like an OS notification) pops up over the OTTD window
07:47:39 <thegcat> anyway, I had also seen peter1138 was looking for people with a retina display, are you still looking for someone? if so ping me
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09:51:44 <zatricky> I'm looking for documentation on hosting an openttd ftp mirror. Could I get some pointers?
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09:58:31 <dihedral> Ammler is playing with a bouncer again? :-P
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10:04:11 <Ammler> well, finally we have done the migration so I could make th upgrade I wanted to do 2? months ago :-)
10:07:13 <Ammler> but next upgrade on bouncer will come soon, znc 1.0 :-)
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14:26:49 <NGC3982> Im playing a scenario that does not use any NewGRFs (temperate climate)
14:27:01 <NGC3982> Though, i'm not getting any trains to build.
14:28:05 <NGC3982> Since setting the amount of trains (max_trains) to 0 usually sets the icon to 0 (i guess)?
14:28:15 <NGC3982> I feel a bit befuddled.
14:29:28 <NGC3982> The 'design year' of the Kirby Paul Tank is 1925.
14:29:39 <NGC3982> Is that also the introduction year for players?
14:30:37 <lugo-> it varies a little i think?
14:30:59 <NGC3982> Note, 1950, no NewGRF's and ..no trains.
14:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: try going to the console and type "resetengines"
14:33:01 <NGC3982> Executable with rcon?
14:33:06 <planetmaker> introduction year varies by two years. Unless it's within the first two years after you started the map
14:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: you don't need rcon in single player
14:33:28 <NGC3982> It's not singleplayer.
14:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably can't do this in multiplayer
14:34:00 <NGC3982> Nope, t'was forbidden.
14:34:11 <NGC3982> I guess i'd need to restart the game.
14:35:08 <planetmaker> NGC3982, load in SP. resetengines there. load on server
14:35:15 <planetmaker> usual way to fix small errors :-)
14:35:27 <NGC3982> Oh, that fix will follow a save game?
14:37:54 <NGC3982> "Resetengines" did not have any effect.
14:40:24 <NGC3982> Ill try saving, loading a different scenario (without any GRF's) and see what happends.
14:40:43 <__ln__> if you're not ill, please use the apostrophe.
14:42:34 <NGC3982> __ln__: I was waiting for you to do that.
14:42:59 <NGC3982> __ln__: By the way, in of to Helsingfors in a few days.
14:44:11 <__ln__> nice. you can expect clouds and more clouds.
14:45:12 <NGC3982> Im for Kronoberg, i think i can take it.
15:11:35 <NGC3982> Look's like a translation thingy.
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15:15:20 <peter1138> It's changing the gearing of the locomotive.
15:15:33 * NGC3982 found a chatlog describing it.
15:15:35 <peter1138> To trade power for speed.
15:15:53 <NGC3982> planetmaker: From a Lime Quarry?
15:16:36 <peter1138> No, that's caused by using incompatible NewGRFs
15:16:56 <NGC3982> I see. It's the Southeast USA scenario.
15:17:10 <NGC3982> I notice from the chat log that PM and Eddi had the same problem, on the same map.
15:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure i had a "whole USA" map at that time
15:17:43 <peter1138> You don't expect people to test their stuff, do you?
15:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is ECS + NARS
15:18:01 <NGC3982> peter1138: Excuse me?
15:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> NARS is an "industry set" because of the regearing cargo, so it's incompatible with other industry sets
15:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but afair it had a switch to disable regearing
15:19:49 <michi_cc> FIRS is supposed to keep the regearing slot free, but ECS is probably defining all available cargo types.
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15:36:56 <Flygon> Wouldn't the solution to be to create more slots?
15:41:24 <NGC3982> I got quiet mad at this.
15:41:40 <NGC3982> Accidently turned of my server too.
15:41:45 <NGC3982> Fantastic evening, this.
15:50:04 <michi_cc> Flygon: Why do you think ECS (or any other GRF) wouldn't just fill these extra slots as well?
15:50:49 <Flygon> If a signed 16-bit integer can't handle this. God. Help us all.
15:51:29 <michi_cc> Cargoes are mostly used as sets and not just single cargoes, so you'd need a 32767-bit integer.
15:51:37 <Rubidium> only caveat is... cargo masks (which cargoes does a vehicle support)
15:51:50 <peter1138> 32767 bit integers :D
15:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> low number of slots is better from an engineering point of view... otherwise you get people who just shove 1000 vehicles into one grf :p
16:04:28 <Flygon> But look at it from a practical point of view
16:04:46 <Flygon> The only way someone will fill up 32767 slots is by feeding it garbage
16:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is a horrible misjudgement on your side :)
16:08:14 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, sorry about increasing that limit :-(
16:08:34 <NGC3982> I'll never play this game again.
16:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still lacking a same way to handle MUs with variable number of wagons... refitting is out of the question since i can't set length to 0, and multiple vehicles is awkward since it means multiple prototype offers at different times
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16:23:00 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with the trick mb uses?
16:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's crazy and totally AI-unfriendly
16:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and it has the problem that the wagons still need different lengths
16:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> MU middle wagons are often different length than MU end wagons, and i can't have a vehicle both dual-headed and articulated
16:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and if i use normal wagons, i need to shorten them to MU wagon length, or if i use special MU wagons i need a way to have them appear at the same time as the MU does
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16:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> currently my preferred system would be the different lengths being separate entries of the purchase list, but only one vehicle prototype
16:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> something vaguely related to MB's "views"
16:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> except MB wanted that to be graphical only, whereas i would vary the articulated vehicles callback based on it
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16:47:17 <peter1138> So has anyone coded that yet?
16:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> of course not :)
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17:10:13 <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> low number of slots is better from an engineering point of view... otherwise you get people who just shove 1000 vehicles into one grf :p <-- lol :-)
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18:33:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: FIRS is undefining the regearing cargo
18:33:27 <andythenorth> which causes NARS to explode a bit
18:36:02 <peter1138> Hmm, OpenTTD on raspbian is actually painful.
18:36:08 <peter1138> Works better under RISC OS
18:36:31 <andythenorth> open source clone?
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18:45:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24759 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2012-11-21 18:45:08 UTC)
18:45:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
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19:10:08 * andythenorth wonders what number cargo regearing is
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19:16:36 <Alberth> but more to the point, what numbers did you start to use between both revisions?
19:19:04 <andythenorth> re-enabling that means FIRS will have Fizzy Drinks in Toyland, incorrectly
19:19:08 <andythenorth> which is better?
19:19:45 <andythenorth> no Fizzy Drinks :P
19:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> check for "NARS present and not in toyland"?
19:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or simply check for "GEAR is present"?
19:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and put its value into a parameter for future use?
19:22:06 <Alberth> no FIRS in toyland is a 3rd option :)
19:23:20 <andythenorth> obviously anyone using Toyland has bugs of their own
19:23:20 <andythenorth> I can't support buggy users :P
19:25:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: allows 'unlock new territory' style challenges
19:32:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: how would 'recommended production level' be defined? As production multiplier value? Or abstraction?
19:33:26 <frosch123> as percentage of "normal production"; latter being define by the grf
19:34:07 <frosch123> i.e. just something approximation of "high" or "low", not a specific amount
19:35:02 <andythenorth> it's unrelated to regions, but I favour giving GS control of production multiplier
19:35:08 <andythenorth> can't justify it, just seems right
19:36:14 <frosch123> it's not the goal of gs to micromanage stuff
19:36:35 <frosch123> gs can handle "few" global things
19:36:42 <frosch123> they cannot properly control thousands of small things
19:37:07 <andythenorth> how about prod change is clamped / unclamped by regions?
19:37:11 <frosch123> gs should set the general "idea of the game"
19:37:16 <frosch123> newgrfs have to fill in the details
19:37:52 <andythenorth> I would rather newgrf did a bit less
19:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you CANNOT offload everything FIRS does onto a GS
19:40:32 <andythenorth> I don't propose that
19:41:00 <andythenorth> specifically I think it would be useful if newgrfs relinquished some control over:
19:41:08 <andythenorth> - production changes
19:41:11 <andythenorth> - industry opening
19:41:15 <andythenorth> - industry closing
19:41:33 <andythenorth> those seem to be the important things for GS
19:42:10 <andythenorth> those are all cbs or cb results handled by openttd anyway
19:42:29 <frosch123> but "production depending on supplies" is not a gs thing
19:43:05 <andythenorth> but it could be made compatible
19:43:24 <andythenorth> to production change
19:43:25 <andythenorth> I nearly did it already, but I need to ask y*xo some questions about current implementation
19:43:55 <frosch123> the idea behind the region approach is to allow asynchronous communication between newgrfs and gs
19:44:05 <frosch123> the gs sets some stuff, and newgrfs react to it
19:44:20 <andythenorth> which requires a set of abstractions...?
19:44:22 <frosch123> there is no direct callback - result thingie
19:45:39 <andythenorth> I'm well aware btw that GS should not be controlling things like production cb etc :)
19:46:11 <frosch123> it just needs telling often enough :p
19:46:34 <frosch123> else people start suggesting to control vehicle acceleration with scripts
19:46:51 <andythenorth> you know that I could rewrite 'regions' as 'NoConomy'? :P
19:47:00 <andythenorth> without anything really changing :P
19:47:30 <frosch123> well, people play with every crap
19:47:39 <frosch123> even manual industries is quite popular
19:47:40 <andythenorth> you could fake production by hacking 'cargo moved to station'
19:47:57 * andythenorth is not putting points in any order, just having ideas (annoying)
19:48:08 <andythenorth> I like this regions thing
19:48:28 <andythenorth> if you haven't got bored and gone away when I come back, I will try and make more sense
19:48:48 <frosch123> food always makes sense
19:49:12 <andythenorth> so the default number of regions is 0 or 1?
19:49:50 <frosch123> if it is 1, that one cannot be deleted :p
19:50:59 <andythenorth> GS could modify cargo payment rates?
19:51:04 <andythenorth> or is that a massive headache?
19:56:36 <frosch123> i am not sure whether this cb or the rating cb or both were on my list of newgrf features to trash and to replace with gs :p
20:01:13 <andythenorth> I find it very odd that FIRS modifies station ratings
20:01:21 <andythenorth> I want the effect
20:01:30 <andythenorth> but maybe I should have made it a separate grf :P
20:03:13 * NGC3982 has made soup for everyone.
20:08:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: so cb 47 (station rating) and cb 40 (custom profit) - trash?
20:09:09 <andythenorth> read the wrong number on the wiki
20:09:31 <andythenorth> and cb 145 (station rating)
20:09:32 <frosch123> i added the profit thingie to the page
20:09:43 <frosch123> just specified it as cumulativ
20:10:30 <frosch123> rating does not sound too useful for being a regional thing
20:10:53 <andythenorth> rating imho is almost justified as an openttd setting
20:11:04 <andythenorth> we have so many other settings which have zero gameplay benefit :P
20:11:55 <andythenorth> so industry construction - that makes my head hurt
20:12:19 <andythenorth> that would be a multiplier on the action 0 prop?
20:12:38 <andythenorth> what about cb22?
20:12:47 <andythenorth> it would modify the result of that?
20:12:50 <frosch123> well, multiplier to cb22 then
20:13:07 <frosch123> cb22 / a0 refer to map average
20:13:14 <frosch123> the gs would make the map inhomogenous
20:13:40 <frosch123> like firs farm clusters
20:13:41 <andythenorth> how would this relate to industry amount on map gen settings?
20:14:44 <frosch123> gs can fund industries themself if they really care about an exact number
20:15:02 <frosch123> this is just about influencing the randomness that exists
20:15:06 <andythenorth> I guess I've mentioned that I think the industry counts have issues? :P
20:15:18 <andythenorth> fixing that - if ever - is probably orthogonal
20:17:08 <V> hai, I have a question ... I want to put arrows which present the direction a train is facing. Is there a way to overlay the sprites with the arrow or do I need to make separate sprites with that arrow added to them?
20:17:59 <frosch123> you can only draw one sprite per vehicle
20:18:12 <frosch123> so, you have to add the arrow the vehicle image
20:18:25 <V> I thought eGRVTS did something like such overlaying
20:18:26 <frosch123> but ofc. you can use some scripted image processing to do so
20:18:38 <V> ahh, better not, that sounds evil :)
20:18:49 <V> I prefer the simple methods most of the time :P
20:19:40 <Alberth> depending on your experience, "simple" may vary :)
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20:31:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: incidentally I think FIRS clusters would be a problem with regions
20:31:23 <andythenorth> I could bin them ;)
20:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> don't touch that stuff... you have enough to fiddle already :)
20:31:52 <frosch123> i had a discussion with al*erth yesterday about industry densities
20:32:16 <frosch123> one requirement was that newgrfs have to specify whether a industry is meant to cluster or to spread out
20:35:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: so a 'locate near similar types' or such?
20:36:23 <frosch123> it was about "prevent appearance of 3 oilrigs in every small lake" vs. "still allow farms to cluster"
20:37:06 <andythenorth> did you have implementation ideas?
20:38:05 <andythenorth> min / max distance pair, assume same industry type?
20:38:38 <andythenorth> FIRS has to scale number of clusters by map size etc
20:39:01 <andythenorth> dunno if that should be in scope for regions
20:39:42 <andythenorth> I kind of think regions provide that, it's not a thing for newgrf
20:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "max distance" supposed to achieve? that'll cause "only one cluster per map" issues
20:44:31 <andythenorth> any clue what should handle number of clusters?
20:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> map size/difficulty settings
20:45:45 <andythenorth> so do same as FIRS then
20:45:58 <andythenorth> first generate n industries (n = number of clusters)
20:46:14 <andythenorth> then generate remaining industries using max distance to similar type
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21:04:19 <Alberth> tt-forums are very boring
21:08:26 <supermop> i had my work computer stolen yesterday
21:08:27 <andythenorth> troll the 'u mst w8nt moar pl8yz' thread
21:08:38 <andythenorth> forums are exciting for me
21:08:48 <andythenorth> DanMacK has been sending my epic pixels by pm
21:09:06 <supermop> with a good little 128x128 game going on it
21:09:33 <andythenorth> forums are also exciting because they eat my login cookie every 20 mins or so
21:09:35 <andythenorth> which causes rage
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21:42:31 <andythenorth> it all went quiet :P
21:45:31 <supermop> andy - my chips station glitch bug was fixed!
21:46:21 <andythenorth> I still have one :P
21:46:34 <supermop> the computer with the save on it was stolen
21:46:43 <supermop> so i am no longer experiencing the glitch
21:47:57 <andythenorth> I could solve the glitch by rm-ing the grf?
21:59:10 <Alberth> too complicated, you need the actual name. Better find it instead: find / -iname "*.grf" -exec rm "{}" ";"
21:59:39 <Alberth> it may have unfortunate side effects for other grf and grf-like files :p
22:04:12 <andythenorth> what does it transport?
22:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> a ship... or something :)
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22:24:32 <Nat_aS> andythenorth: when will BANDIT be done?
22:24:37 <Nat_aS> and will you make a buss set?
22:24:57 <Nat_aS> (I really hate the default RVs, and think the other RV sets are too excessive)
22:28:53 <andythenorth> BANDIT is on hold
22:30:17 <andythenorth> it's unlikely I'll pick it up any time soon
22:30:22 <andythenorth> I got bored of trying to make trucks work
22:41:00 <NGC3982> I can't find anything in the online content.
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23:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> afair there are two exceptions for the 90° turn rule, 1) a not-front vehicle will follow 90° turns, 2) a track reservation is always followed
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