IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-11-04
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00:42:12 <drac_boy> what doing then anyway flygon?
00:42:36 <Flygon> Prolly gonna take a shower, then work on comissions
00:42:47 <Flygon> Well, commision, anyway
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00:52:45 * drac_boy gives flygon a paintbrush
00:55:26 <Flygon> Actually, I cel-shade :p
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08:04:35 <andythenorth> sorted the python madness
08:05:17 <andythenorth> register cargos automatically into a list in the cargos module
08:05:35 <andythenorth> via cargos/__init__.py
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09:01:31 <peter1138> hmm, my cpu cores keep switching between 6x and 9x multiplier
09:01:37 <peter1138> and power saving is, in theory, turned off
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09:17:19 <andythenorth> I could import these industry and cargo classes into a WSGI app
09:19:00 <andythenorth> Alberth: I fixed most of last night's madness :)
09:19:04 <andythenorth> there's a bit of auto-magic
09:20:14 <Alberth> moin andythenorth, planetmaker
09:22:35 <andythenorth> shall we put the band back together? :P
09:25:02 <andythenorth> is it worth cleaning up FIRS repo structure?
09:25:06 <andythenorth> some of the names are a bit wrong
09:25:15 <andythenorth> e.g. 'sprites/' instead of 'src/'
09:26:46 <planetmaker> a simple hg mv should do the trick. the makefile would need telling about it, though
09:27:31 <andythenorth> I like tidiness :)
09:27:46 <V453000> order for the weak! :P
09:28:02 <planetmaker> Makefile.config:12 is the line
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09:30:43 <Alberth> I never understood the "sprites" directory for storing source code
09:31:20 <planetmaker> grfcodec -d file.grf
09:31:30 <andythenorth> turns out there are a few uses of 'sprites' in the python code
09:31:36 <Alberth> grfcodec is soo 90's man :p
09:31:38 <andythenorth> it should probably get some var from makefile
09:32:10 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, I consider grfcodec seriously broken in that respect
09:32:43 <planetmaker> so grfcodec should de-compile to src instead of sprites?
09:33:48 <Alberth> it should give me the choice of where I want to put things, instead of forcing "sprites/*"
09:36:19 * andythenorth has made the src/ change
09:37:40 <planetmaker> I changed it for OpenGFX like 12 months ago or so. It works... but needs care with paths so that building and relative inclusion doesn't break
09:37:55 <andythenorth> let's see if bundles breaks
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10:03:55 <LordAro> hey Zuu and Terkhen :-)
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10:31:28 * LordAro is unhappy with his distro again...
10:31:39 <LordAro> what distros do you chaps run?
10:31:47 * andythenorth runs the stupid one
10:32:37 * Zuu run debian but only without X
10:32:44 <andythenorth> the fun part for andythenorth is, having no choice eliminates any possibility of having to spend time choosing
10:32:56 <LordAro> gonna need some real names :P (apart from andy, that's obvious :P)
10:33:49 * Eddi|zuHause runs the german one
10:34:19 <andythenorth> make your life easier
10:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually stupid, because it's only like 500km
10:36:29 <peter1138> yeah that's not that far
10:36:48 <andythenorth> political correctness ftw
10:36:52 <peter1138> unless they're saying the car's a tank
10:37:43 <peter1138> guess it's a war 'joke'
10:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's pretty fair to assume :)
10:38:31 <andythenorth> visit stalingrad; it's lovely in winter
10:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the worst one i know: "My grandfather died in Auschwitz!" ... "He tripped and fell from the guard tower!"
10:42:58 <LordAro> it's surprisingly awkward when Germans make War jokes... :L
10:51:07 <Flygon> When an Australian makes a war joke, nothing special happens
10:53:31 <Flygon> I can think of no good war jokes
10:53:42 <Flygon> I can kill IRC channels, however :B
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11:00:28 <NGC3982> LordAro: Seriosly, they named it after Toy Story characters?
11:01:28 <Rubidium> only for the last like two decades
11:01:36 <peter1138> thought everyone knew that
11:02:08 <LordAro> Debian really is ancient
11:02:30 <Rubidium> s/ancient/well matured/
11:03:00 <Rubidium> or... so bleeding edge that it has patches for years that gcc hasn't accepted yet
11:03:06 <NGC3982> Peter: I rarely use Linux at all.
11:03:25 <planetmaker> Rubidium, how that?
11:03:52 <Rubidium> Linux is only a the kernel
11:04:12 <NGC3982> I was for a long time under the impression that BSD was a distro, like Ubuntu or Fedora or something.
11:04:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: multiarch; installing multiple architectures of the same package and (basically) natively cross-compiling
11:04:45 <Rubidium> NGC3982: for Debian you can choose for a Linux, BSD or Hurd kernel
11:05:04 <planetmaker> ah, interesting. thanks
11:05:22 <NGC3982> Rubidium: I need to learn the correct terminology.
11:05:34 <NGC3982> I only use Linux when i IRC (on the shell).
11:06:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'd argue if you replace OSX with Windows it still holds
11:06:59 <planetmaker> I'll not argue against ;-)
11:07:21 <planetmaker> I don't expect an empty set with linux either
11:12:53 <Ammler> LordAro: which distro do you use now and why are you unhappy with?
11:13:24 <NGC3982> My girlfriend works in the train business, here in Sweden.
11:13:56 <NGC3982> One of the new drivers had just started working after his year long education
11:14:14 <NGC3982> And yesterday, hit a suicide candidate after two weeks at work
11:14:20 <NGC3982> And cannot work again for six months.
11:15:26 <Ammler> LordAro: instead switching to another, you could also help to improve the current
11:26:12 <xand> is there a way to tell buses to not avoid (by detouring) stations that aren't on their Orders list?
11:26:27 <xand> other than specifically telling them to go there
11:27:23 <planetmaker> that's difficult, if there are other ways which have a lower pathfinder cost
11:27:40 <planetmaker> but if you know they should visit station XY, you could as well tell them, no?
11:28:16 <xand> going through the station is the most direct route... and given vehicle can have "implicit" orders I wonder why it avoids the stations to take a longer route?
11:28:44 <planetmaker> xand, but stations themselves as other vehicles are a penalty in the route
11:28:59 <planetmaker> (stations can be blocked. other vehicles are blocks)
11:29:29 <xand> it needs a GPS system to know where the other vehicles are ;)
11:30:32 <xand> then it should know there's no blockage
11:31:34 <planetmaker> station itself is a penalty. As going through could mean blocking other vehicles who want to go there ;-)
11:32:02 <Zuu> xand: Do you have 'go-non-stop to' orders?
11:32:38 <xand> Zuu: they stop there if it's the only route, but otherwise drive round
11:32:48 <LordAro> Ammler: Linux Mint Debian Edition, not updated quick enough, and no, takes too much effort :P
11:32:51 <Zuu> If the other path is just one other way, you could put a extra stop there and using go-non-stop to avoid it stopping at any of the stations that it pass by.
11:33:21 <Zuu> Eg. by penaltizing both ways equal
11:35:04 <Zuu> If there are two options and one have an unwanted penalty that you can't remove, you can add an equal penalty to the other option. Just make sure there isn't a third or fourth option that traffic will spill over to.
11:36:47 <xand> I could do that but I don't like the idea of unused stations ;)
11:36:55 <xand> I think I'll stick to building mostly trams :D
11:44:15 <planetmaker> or order it to visit the station or go via the station
11:45:04 <Ammler> LordAro: then that sounds like you should use a bleeding edge distro...
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11:48:47 <LordAro> Ammler: i did run debian unstable for a while, but i got bored without a graphics driver for about a month, so i switched to this :L
11:53:42 <LordAro> i thought perhaps going back to ubuntu, but xubuntu to avoid unity
11:57:05 <planetmaker> *without* graphics driver?
11:58:51 <Ammler> maybe you should try a rpm distro :-)
11:59:21 <LordAro> planetmaker: fglrx had dependency issues
12:00:09 <planetmaker> maybe you should use rather testing than unstable ;-)
12:01:17 <kero> Try Archlinux. It's cool.
12:06:10 <LordAro> i recently installed arch on my raspberry pi, seems fun
12:07:39 <Ammler> except that is is a stupid name
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12:08:27 <kero> Actually, I like it better as "ubuntu", or "fedora" :)
12:08:58 <kero> but the real cool thing, is that it's a rolling release
12:10:14 <kero> (speaking of which, I just noticed that version 1.2.3 of openttd just arrived in repositories)
12:12:21 <LordAro> except i'm going to have to relearn how to install stuff (apt-get -> pacman)
12:13:12 <Flygon> I'm the lamest person here, I go "New Task", 'explorer.exe' :B
12:13:36 * andythenorth types 'macports blah'
12:14:01 <andythenorth> and is then somewhere between rage and disappointment
12:19:05 <NGC3982> We coulnd't find a cartridge suitable for the SNES.
12:19:10 <kero> planetmaker : have you seen the patch I posted ?
12:19:35 <andythenorth> can we make a mariokart grf?
12:19:46 <Flygon> I'd rather a Mega Drive
12:20:41 <Flygon> Easier to use it's VDP as a psudo-framebuffer, and audio in/out lines on the cart slot :B
12:21:11 <andythenorth> I didn't mean reimplement the entire console on the map
12:21:35 <andythenorth> which might be possible :P
12:23:44 <planetmaker> hm, where, kero ?
12:33:06 <LordAro> hmm. arch install seems a bit complicated...
12:34:22 <kero> it's easy if your experienced in linux. Otherwise, It's not the better solution
12:38:29 <LordAro> been using linux for about 2 years now
12:39:02 <LordAro> seems reasonable enough, but i think i'd like to print off the 'installation guide' wiki page :L
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12:59:05 * drac_boy pokes flygon with a broken valve handle
12:59:51 <Flygon> andy is getting preemptive
13:00:03 * Flygon pokes drac_boy with YouTube
13:00:04 * drac_boy pokes andythenorth with a little 20x4 pixels locomotive
13:55:30 <K4T> im here to say thank you for developers :P
14:14:07 <andythenorth> is there a better way to get an index number from the iterator?
14:14:54 <andythenorth> I could do this trivially in chameleon, but it seems overkill for the size of the result :P
14:14:58 <Alberth> for i, x in enumerate(list)
14:15:50 <Alberth> if self.economy_variations[economy].disabled == False: <-- if not self.economy_variations[economy].disabled:
14:16:11 <andythenorth> seen the obvious logical flaw in my loop?
14:16:38 <andythenorth> what's max number of items will ever be in enabled_economies list?
14:17:56 <Alberth> not really, but I am glad you spotted it :)
14:21:53 <Yexo> andythenorth: ' || '.join(['economy==' + str(count) for count,economy in global_constants.economies if not economy.disabled])
14:22:11 <andythenorth> one line python game :)
14:22:15 <Yexo> and should be "enumerate(global_constants.economies)" isntead of "global_constants.economies"
14:23:02 * andythenorth is changing nappies :P
14:23:33 <Yexo> nah, your current code is easier to read
14:23:45 <andythenorth> that's problem with map
14:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i prefer map(., .) over [ . for . ]
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15:18:21 <LordAro> that's where i was going wrong - i was trying to install the base files onto the .iso, rather than the virtualbox machine :L
15:20:05 <xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: map vs for both have their uses
15:20:28 <xaroth> [x.func() for x in y] should always be used over map(cls.func, y)
15:20:42 <xaroth> also, map() will behave differently between python 2 and 3
15:20:52 <xaroth> in python 3 it returns a generator
15:21:58 <xaroth> you use map to apply a function to all items of the array, else, for is the recommended wayt to go
15:22:21 <xaroth> so Yexo's line was accurate
15:25:31 <andythenorth> should I bother writing a validator for FIRS economies?
15:25:59 <andythenorth> i.e. check that industries have all required cargos (or at least one cargo where cargos are optional)
15:26:15 <andythenorth> sounds like a fun challenge...for someone else o_O
15:27:56 <andythenorth> it's probably some kind of link graph
15:28:23 <andythenorth> any node with no links is a problem
15:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you want to validate
15:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you could autogenerate industry graphs :)
15:30:07 <andythenorth> I have all objects sanely in scope now
15:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i try graphviz i get annoyed because i don't have enough direct control
15:30:50 <andythenorth> or I could just rely on playtesters :)
15:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember already doing a graph for some early FIRS version
15:31:11 <andythenorth> hmm generating cargo charts from source is now possible, didn't think of that :)
15:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> back then i had to parse the html page or something
15:33:14 <andythenorth> I'm going to auto-generate docs
15:33:21 <andythenorth> charts...not me :)
15:33:59 <andythenorth> ${someone} should implement a FIRS economy
15:34:01 <andythenorth> all the hooks are there
15:34:24 <andythenorth> then we could play a game with it using the new version of NoCarGoal
15:35:33 <Rubidium> andythenorth: use dot
15:37:09 <Rubidium> that at least draws a graph for you ;)
15:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that misses a few accents
15:49:19 <V453000> that is why I prefer "hi bitches"
15:51:07 <Rubidium> interesting way to say "good bye"
15:58:05 <K4T> how can I check if town is metropolis?
15:59:09 <Zuu> Ask in or check the thread for the GS that you run.
15:59:26 <Zuu> Unless you mean that you want to know if a town is 'city'
16:00:36 <Zuu> Or at the bottom of the town window. GSs can attach a message there if they want.
16:01:07 <Zuu> 'metropolis' is not a state of a town in standard OpenTTD
16:01:18 <Zuu> So I assumed you were running eg. City Builder.
16:02:40 <Zuu> Standard OpenTTD can load Game Scripts. However, if you don't have any GS loaded, the only property I can think of is if it is 'city' or not.
16:03:09 <Zuu> IIRC cities have their name capitalized in some place in the GUI while non-city towns dont.
16:05:06 <Zuu> Just checked and couldn't find this capitalized thingy. But in the title bar of the town window there is a extra lable saying City attached to the town name.
16:05:23 <Zuu> So check the title bar of the town window of a town to check if it is 'city' or not.
16:05:31 <K4T> I wanna be sure that town which I choose to develop can be city later in my game
16:06:06 <LordAro> Zuu/KT4: Cities are defined by their townname in the town information window being "<townname> (City)"
16:06:30 <Zuu> LordAro: Exactly, just that paranthesis lock my control key so I avoid them until I restart my computer.
16:07:55 <LordAro> not sticky keys, i assume?
16:14:20 <Zuu> It occurs if I type a char that requires AltGr, then Ctrl get locked until I cycle keyboard layouts to unstick it. Or better reboot to get away with the issue until some weeks or months later.
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16:25:30 <andythenorth> not sure of best place to keep docs templates / src
16:25:45 <andythenorth> FISH has them in the /docs dir, which is frequently confusing
16:26:04 <andythenorth> src/docs_templates?
16:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> src/doc_templates?
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16:53:47 <andythenorth> python step is gettign slow
16:53:50 <andythenorth> need it to be faster :P
16:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe CETS' python step is so fast becaause i don't deal in objects?
16:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or because almost all steps are O(n) in the length of the tracking table?
16:58:05 <andythenorth> I should turn off the IO and see if it makes a difference
17:06:54 <andythenorth> meh, it's the templating
17:08:49 <andythenorth> probably just the IO on opening files
17:12:45 <andythenorth> some industries are opening 4 or 5 template files
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17:13:01 <andythenorth> and they're being opened by each module
17:13:12 <andythenorth> so there's IO every time
17:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but the files should be cached?
17:18:01 <andythenorth> they should be, chameleon is usually good at this
17:18:19 <andythenorth> it's not writing the files that's slow
17:18:37 <andythenorth> I doubt that optimising it is going to lead to a net time-saving :)
17:18:54 <andythenorth> it's annoying to wait 5s, but I think it will take me a couple of hours to improve :P
17:19:19 <andythenorth> @calc (2 * 60*60) / 5
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17:32:20 <andythenorth> dicts don't return sensibly :)
17:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> dict.items().sorted()
17:33:26 <andythenorth> I was using iteritems(), can I sort that?
17:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the slowest thing about CETS' python step is sorting the engine list
17:34:51 <andythenorth> if anyone wants to give me a schema for an economy I'll try implementing it
17:35:13 <andythenorth> within reason, I'll include any economy that's coherent
17:56:45 * andythenorth attempts a basic economy
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18:45:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24662 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-04 18:45:20 UTC)
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:31 <DorpsGek> german - 6 changes by planetmaker
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> spanish - 6 changes by Terkhen
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19:22:34 <andythenorth> action 14 caching :P
19:22:40 <andythenorth> even across 'rescan grfs' :)
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19:35:00 <andythenorth> clay pit could probably go, as could paper mill and brickworks
19:35:08 <andythenorth> and there's only one farm and one farm cargo
19:37:05 <andythenorth> anyway, don't all shout at once
19:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> whoever put a "SBB RABe 512" into the CETS tracking table, i can't find any evidence of such a vehicle ever existing... i'll take it out...
19:39:42 <andythenorth> is CETS done yet :)
19:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to turn the green boxes into coloured boxes before making an alpha release
19:40:25 <andythenorth> I know the feeling :)
19:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but i haven't gotten around to it
19:41:14 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: might it be the 521?
19:41:26 <andythenorth> MP NoCarGoal with FIRS Basic economy?
19:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there's a separate entry for 521-524
19:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's older, and exists as well
19:44:40 <Rubidium> mystery train; 511? Otherwise I guess you're right there isn't much proof of it
19:44:55 <Rubidium> though I've seen some mentions of it, just nothing really concrete
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20:08:23 <Rubidium> hmm, might the 511-514 range be equivalent to the 521-524 range?
20:08:39 <michi_cc> There's no proper type label visible though, so a 512 might be the same type as a 511
20:11:52 <michi_cc> Hmm, can't be either, Wikipedia says RABe 511 are bilevel units, and the photo is definitely not a bilevel unit.
20:18:53 <Rubidium> but the 511 on that photo page aren't bilevel either
20:24:22 <__ln__> every F1 car has a spoiler
20:26:08 <michi_cc> Rubidium: Do you know if there were any MediaWiki, LDAP or similar updates on the server in the last months? It seems the wiki login for usernames with a _ that TB fixed once somehow got unfixed.
20:27:38 <Rubidium> michi_cc: I'm not aware of any, though that doesn't prove or disprove it having happened
20:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: the 511 and 512 on this page are vehicle numbers, not vehicle class numbers
20:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a RABe xxx-511 and RABe xxx-512
20:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> where xxx is ommitted because the railway has only one type
20:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "or something" :p
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