IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-27
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00:42:55 <BadBrett> automation sure is fun when working with nml
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06:21:01 <andythenorth> what a long and tedious thread about economy
06:22:19 <Flygon> All you need to know about the economy: If it helped kill Soviet Russia, it can help kill anything
06:29:34 <andythenorth> In Soviet Russia, economy kills you
06:39:00 <roidal> if i start a multiplayer server is there a way to disable some vehicles?
06:39:45 <roidal> for example all monorails
06:41:44 <Flygon> I know that could be done with NewGRF's, but beyond that... can't really help more x:
06:45:13 <Flygon> What sort of NewGRF's are you using?
06:45:40 <Flygon> I know you could load the 2CC trainset and monorail gets replaced by Metro, but I doubt that's what you wannt
06:46:32 <roidal> until now i don't use newgrf's
06:47:01 <andythenorth> opengfx + trains might do it
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06:47:59 <roidal> andythenorth: which parameter?
06:48:10 <roidal> compile a ohne opengfx set?
06:51:54 <andythenorth> roidal: got 'opengfx+ trains' ?
06:52:06 <andythenorth> there are parameters, you set them in the newgrf window
06:52:24 <andythenorth> looks like it will do what you need
06:52:47 <roidal> sry, missunderstood you
07:11:45 * andythenorth considers a 'race' MP GS
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07:12:54 <andythenorth> every month, players have to connect two locations
07:13:07 <andythenorth> and 'race' a vehicle from A to B
07:13:21 <andythenorth> GS awards points to whoever gets there fastest
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08:22:58 <roidal> and gamesettings are not saved in the save-files?
08:23:14 <roidal> so if i change the settings in a singleplayer game and then load a multiplayer game
08:23:41 <roidal> they are changed in the multiplayergame too?
08:43:17 <andythenorth> most gamesettings travel with save
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08:57:01 <roidal> to give the client the rcon-password so i can change settings on the server from the client with the gui?
09:05:07 <andythenorth> in FIRS? Or irl? :P
09:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> where the pizza comes from
09:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i never order pizza)
09:08:35 <Flygon> Snow comes from a Pizzaria?
09:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm a "visualized vegetarian". i eat everything that i can visualize growing on trees. :p
09:10:31 <andythenorth> where is that picture about 'real life' with the guy looking out of the window?
09:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> on pics.nase-bohren.de ?
09:11:56 <andythenorth> couldn't find it there
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09:14:35 <Flygon> Reality sucks, the time aspect of it really needs patching
09:14:53 <Flygon> But we lost the source code sometime around the creation of matter
09:15:07 <Flygon> And it's proven difficult to disassemble manually
09:15:41 <andythenorth> so...FIRS economies
09:15:54 <andythenorth> depending on economy, some properties of an industry will vary
09:16:10 <andythenorth> is that an intrinsic property of each industry?
09:16:19 <andythenorth> or is it a configuration item from the environment?
09:16:42 <andythenorth> i.e. one economies.py file, with all industries?
09:16:51 <andythenorth> or each industry knows how to behave in economy x?
09:16:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth, every month is very quick. but yearly of every 6 months... maybe
09:17:11 <planetmaker> might be quite fun :-)
09:19:17 <andythenorth> the way I approach OO, I'd rather have the properties encapsulated in each industry
09:19:26 <andythenorth> then things are less likely to blow up, and it's more portable
09:19:29 <andythenorth> information hiding
09:19:49 <andythenorth> but it's more work with code, have to modify each industry instead of one giant table :P
09:20:15 <planetmaker> not sure that it is more work. Just more distributed
09:20:44 <andythenorth> it avoids 'everything is a giant ball of string' imo
09:20:57 <andythenorth> this might be bikeshedding, not sure
09:21:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about defining a "mode" for each industry
09:21:14 <planetmaker> this mode might involve production rates, acceptance and output
09:21:33 <planetmaker> and the economy.py relates the mode to the economy mode of each industry
09:21:55 <planetmaker> so the mode for a particular industry could be the same in different economies (where it need not behave different)
09:22:41 <andythenorth> yes default behaviour is what I had in mind too
09:22:53 <andythenorth> if there's no change, no code needed
09:23:09 <planetmaker> hm, indeed. Mode 0 = default then
09:23:16 <planetmaker> didn't even mean that :D
09:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "Ai Weiwei's 'Gangnam Style' video was censored."
09:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ",,, in Germany"
09:30:57 <Flygon> ...what did they censor?
09:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole video is blocked on youtube
09:35:20 <Flygon> What would possibly be offensive about Gangnam style?
09:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> for "copyright" reasons
09:35:49 <Flygon> I say if it's aired on nationwide Australian TV during primetime during 'The Project', I say it's suitable for Germany :U
09:36:42 <Flygon> (as well as a crapload of other TV shows)
09:37:20 <frosch123> every music video is blocked by default in germany
09:38:09 <__ln__> and germans never get annoyed by that?
09:38:18 <frosch123> the artist has to explicitly forbid the german usage rights authority to represent him
09:39:23 <frosch123> and the rights authority has not settled a deal with yt within 5 years or so
09:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: at least one GEMA-related petition passed the 50.000 petitors barrier
09:40:45 <andythenorth> ach, so I probably make some kind of 'EconomyConfig' class then
09:41:12 <Rubidium> the Belgian tv program Basta made a nice episode about the Belgian equivalent
09:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not that any petition ever changed anything...
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09:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i heard of this show before. but i don't remember if i actually watched it
09:49:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch
10:09:08 <andythenorth> economy code: explicit disable of industry, or explicit enable?
10:10:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth, enable
10:10:27 <andythenorth> I just voted disable :P
10:10:41 <andythenorth> enable means it's easy for me to screw up and break chains
10:10:44 <andythenorth> by forgetting an industry
10:11:16 <planetmaker> with disable it's easy to disable an industry which is crucial for a chain ;-)
10:11:38 <andythenorth> who is our tester? :P
10:11:44 <planetmaker> but yes, does really matter. bikeshedding fits it very well
10:11:57 <planetmaker> I want it painted red!
10:12:09 <planetmaker> then you can place the nuke in it
10:13:00 <andythenorth> is there a case for varying cargo at industries? I think not
10:13:12 <andythenorth> ottd handles pretty well if a cargo is present or not
10:13:25 <andythenorth> but FIRS production code and info strings don't :P
10:13:46 <planetmaker> strings don't. We'll need to adjust them
10:14:18 <planetmaker> But still, even if the cargo is not available, the industry will accept it
10:14:23 <planetmaker> that will be confusing
10:14:33 <planetmaker> or do I err that it won't show, if the cargo isn't defined?
10:14:46 <andythenorth> that's one of the smartest bits of industry_cmd.cpp :)
10:14:57 <andythenorth> lot's of it is bloody awful, but whoever did that gets a prize
10:19:20 <andythenorth> what else might *industries* want to vary in economies?
10:19:27 <andythenorth> cargos will be handled separately
10:19:57 <andythenorth> location code and production code are definitely out of scope imo
10:23:52 <planetmaker> production code is touched already by production amount. And should do so also for secondaries imho. But that's a 2nd step when this is done as you described
10:24:32 <planetmaker> and... could graphics vary (if you feel bold and like drawing)?
10:24:49 <planetmaker> or additional / less layouts available
10:25:18 <andythenorth> layouts could be conditional on an economy
10:25:52 <andythenorth> for example, in 'Holland' economy, all grain millls use windmill only :P
10:25:54 <planetmaker> that would even give us the option to modify looks however one would see fit
10:26:21 <planetmaker> or in a mars or future tech version, no wind mills or so
10:26:29 <andythenorth> grain mills on mars :P
10:26:45 <Rubidium> andythenorth: luckily you didn't say "Dutch" economy ;)
10:28:31 <Rubidium> although... to be fair, even in Holland not all mills were wind mills
10:29:06 <planetmaker> Holland 17th century: s/cotton farm/tulip farm/
10:29:19 <planetmaker> would be an interesting variation, too ;-)
10:29:32 <planetmaker> isn't that quite new, Rubidium ?
10:29:41 <andythenorth> there is a plan for watermill
10:29:48 <planetmaker> hm, no, seemingly
10:30:03 <andythenorth> not sure if I can detect river accurately enough
10:30:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: in stellar time frames it is
10:30:18 <andythenorth> if anyone wants to try writing tile location code for it, I'll draw graphics :P
10:30:26 <planetmaker> I'll write that code
10:30:46 <Rubidium> although... 5 decades might be relatively young for mills
10:31:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: might be worth looking how Yexo did the petrol station
10:31:23 <andythenorth> only locates next to roads
10:31:31 <planetmaker> yes... I wrote that code ;-)
10:31:32 <andythenorth> and chooses an appropriate layout to line up with road
10:31:59 <andythenorth> if we can't detect rivers, I suggest extend spec
10:32:06 <planetmaker> I guess both of us did at one time, him and me
10:32:14 <andythenorth> he wrote the nfo equivalent
10:32:41 <planetmaker> I wrote most of nml location code, I think, at least the last template version
10:33:04 <planetmaker> spent weeks on it
10:33:21 <Rubidium> hand mill: 3000 BC, water mill: 1200 BC, wind mill: 100 AD, ship mill: 600 AD, tide mill: 1500 AD
10:33:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: there were so many cases in the nfo to handle for locations :)
10:34:05 <andythenorth> I had ~2 years to think up all those ;)
10:34:16 <planetmaker> they're all still there
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10:34:35 <planetmaker> and it's good to have some decision paths there
10:34:40 <planetmaker> makes for a bit variety
10:34:41 <andythenorth> I read them all when I improved town industry locations
10:34:46 <andythenorth> they're all well documented too
10:35:35 <planetmaker> yes, I spent lots of time on that, too ;-)
10:35:49 <planetmaker> But I know from my own experience that I forget what I did... so just for myself :-P
10:44:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the tile location code is still the cpp templates, right?
10:46:26 <planetmaker> he, we already have a water class check on a tile basis. We would just need to employ it
10:46:39 <andythenorth> np plans to change the tile location code any time soon, no benefit
10:46:57 <planetmaker> TILE_CHECK_WATERCLASS(name, class, yes, no)
10:47:20 <andythenorth> does the class find rivers?
10:47:27 <andythenorth> or would it also find canals?
10:47:50 <planetmaker> coast is a separate check
10:48:20 <planetmaker> RIVER is a separate water class, though
10:48:29 <planetmaker> different from CANAL and SEA and NONE
10:49:01 <planetmaker> thus one would need make sure that tile is flat and class RIVER
10:49:13 <planetmaker> and possibly the adjacent tile, too (if it's a two-tile layout)
10:49:41 <planetmaker> thus I can only write the check when I know the layout :-)
10:50:07 <planetmaker> my idea for the layout is two-tile with building on land and the wheel on the water. so-to-speak
10:50:30 <andythenorth> will that block ships?
10:50:48 <andythenorth> I was thinking of a mill pond and mill channel to one side
10:50:51 <planetmaker> yes. it will become an industry tile
10:50:55 <andythenorth> put it on rapids :P
10:51:03 <planetmaker> that's another option
10:51:10 <planetmaker> but harder, much harder, to place
10:51:25 <planetmaker> the other option I'd place 2nd is to place it entirely next to the river
10:51:36 <planetmaker> with a river extension where the mill wheel turns
10:51:50 <planetmaker> then the river will remain navigable
10:54:11 <planetmaker> river extension only graphically, of course
10:54:41 <andythenorth> sprites overlapping the tile boundary?
10:55:02 <planetmaker> but I'd rather then put the wheel at the tile boundary
10:55:36 <planetmaker> hm... though yes, we have a problem with showing water... we might need to do that then... :S
10:55:48 <planetmaker> So... rather build on the river. Better looks
10:55:48 <andythenorth> put the tile on the N side :P
10:56:25 <planetmaker> he. In my mind I *always* placed it on the Western sides, either NW or SW.
10:57:32 <planetmaker> I would like a turning wheel :-)
10:58:32 * andythenorth tries to figure out how to link up a mill stream with main river graphics
10:58:39 <andythenorth> would need to cross the river bank graphics
10:59:22 <andythenorth> I don't want to do one of those weird graphical cheats which go out of the tile
10:59:42 <planetmaker> Then probably our option is only on the river
11:00:02 <planetmaker> if we don't want that, it need be on rapids. But... meh
11:00:20 <planetmaker> try on? or try graphical cheat? :D
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11:09:19 <andythenorth> rapids are too limiting
11:10:51 <planetmaker> you think it's bad to block the river?
11:10:59 <andythenorth> it is for ships :)
11:11:11 <andythenorth> but there are canals, right? :P
11:11:20 <planetmaker> we can also argue that a proper water mill needs a river block to generate some water drop. and ^^
11:11:43 <planetmaker> well. you don't need that on flat terrain ;-)
11:11:48 <andythenorth> just try it blocking the river
11:11:53 <andythenorth> see what happens :)
11:12:27 <andythenorth> actually, anything like drawing a mill stream is bad
11:12:35 <andythenorth> because it might not match river graphics anyway
11:12:48 <planetmaker> ok. It's also the easiest thing to do
11:12:49 <andythenorth> so definitely just build on river
11:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch <-- i'm fairly sure there were english subtitles available :p
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12:39:12 <roidal> how can i save the company-password?
12:39:21 <roidal> when i restart the server the passwords are disabled?
12:41:29 <Ammler> simply because you don't want to save the passwords in the game.sav
12:41:45 <Ammler> and that is about all infos you keep on restart
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12:44:24 <planetmaker> it's not even removed. It simply is and was never saved
12:44:40 <planetmaker> and saving it has problems with e.g. giving away savegames or so
12:45:21 <planetmaker> a viable solution, roidal, is to use admin scripts to automatically set passwords. And of course good administration to move people on request into their companies after a reload
12:48:18 <roidal> and what exactly is saved in the save-files?
12:48:41 <roidal> or only the map and companies?
12:48:42 <planetmaker> most settings are saved
12:49:00 <planetmaker> except network settings and gui-only ones
12:49:12 <planetmaker> look at your adv. settings. All but the ui section is saved
12:49:29 <roidal> so, if i create a new game and change difficulty or economic settings in the openttd.conf
12:49:40 <roidal> it doesnt affect already existing games?
12:50:25 <roidal> and how can i change it in the running game? i tried it with the console
12:50:48 <planetmaker> yes, via console you can. In single player of course also via the adv. settings UI
12:50:49 <roidal> i tried to change the construction_cost but it doesen't allow it
12:50:59 <planetmaker> yes, you can't change everything in MP games
12:51:05 <planetmaker> some things are fixed. And that's it
12:51:33 <planetmaker> it would be bad, if it were allowed. Clients would be kicked due to diverging game states
12:51:36 <roidal> and if a load the map as a singleplayer game, change it, and then load as multiplayer again?
12:51:52 <planetmaker> though... construction costs... not sure
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13:42:25 <andythenorth> how does the ternary operator work in nml?
13:42:48 <andythenorth> I want to return '3079 + (animation_frame / 4)' if animation_frame < 19
13:42:48 <planetmaker> x = y == 2 ? 5 : 3
13:43:08 <planetmaker> x = condition ? true : false
13:46:05 * andythenorth wonders if there's a number for an empty sprite in base set?
13:46:18 <andythenorth> 93-97 look empty
13:47:22 <frosch123> those are character sprites
13:47:28 <frosch123> you will trigger an error when using them in a spritelayout
13:47:29 <roidal> whats the "default company password" button?
13:47:58 <andythenorth> I currently have smoke that turns into a floating bus :)
13:48:20 <frosch123> roidal: it makes the entered password to be stored in your local openttd.cfg, and automatically applied whenever you start a new company on any server
13:48:30 <frosch123> (storage is unencrypted)
13:49:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: know of any other sprites that are blank? :P
13:49:14 <frosch123> doesn't it have a tooltip hint btw?
13:49:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: add one?
13:49:36 <andythenorth> needs to have a number from the base set
13:49:41 <frosch123> or even use the adv spritelayout stuff to make a sprite invisble
13:49:47 <planetmaker> uhm, I don't think there is one, andythenorth
13:49:54 <andythenorth> can't do that (right now)
13:50:02 <andythenorth> owing to I have to go to the toyshop o_O
13:50:21 <andythenorth> I'll add a special template for smoke sprites
14:00:56 <roidal> and there is again a question
14:01:05 <roidal> how can i remove a server from the list?
14:03:55 <roidal> i added a server in the client...which i don't need anymore
14:10:28 <planetmaker> select another server. the memory only holds one...
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14:54:01 <TrueBrain> building a new balancer (finally .. about freaking time, but okay):
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15:16:58 <andythenorth> all these lovely steam ships
15:17:04 <andythenorth> and no way to show smoke :o
15:20:20 <Flygon> Isn't there a steam-smoke flag?
15:20:56 <Flygon> I've seen it used in eGTRS 2.0
15:22:09 <andythenorth> yes there is a flag
15:22:14 <andythenorth> it was very kindly patched
15:22:37 <frosch123> extended generic roadvehicle and tram set
15:23:16 <andythenorth> there is even an option to offset smoke along the y axis :)
15:23:27 <andythenorth> but there is no option to offset z
15:23:38 <frosch123> you mean "along the vehicle"
15:24:36 <andythenorth> I read the code as y
15:24:57 <andythenorth> it's a long time since I read it :P
15:25:03 <andythenorth> when I last tried to patch this
15:25:09 <Rubidium> oh, in code... then I have no clue ;)
15:25:22 <Rubidium> only know the axis in measurement data ;)
15:25:31 <andythenorth> anyway this one is a social problem, not a code problem
15:26:03 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24631 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:25:57 UTC)
15:26:04 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add buttons to expand/collapse all to advanced settings GUI.
15:26:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24632 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:26:17 UTC)
15:26:24 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add text filtering to advanced settings.
15:26:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24633 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2012-10-27 15:26:34 UTC)
15:26:41 <DorpsGek> -Add: Autoexpand the adv. settings tree, if a filter term is entered immediately after opening the window without any manual expanding/collapsing.
15:27:27 <Rubidium> tss... lazy translators ;)
15:28:41 <andythenorth> what a nice steam ship
15:31:29 <Zuu> I though to do some minor tweaks to "Neighbours are important". One of those is to display a list of negihbour towns in the GUI. As town names sometimes can be quite long, I though it might be a good idea to have each town name on a line of its own. But then you need some sort of bullet list or indention. And that is my question, is there something better than dash-bullets?
15:33:20 <Rubidium> maybe the > arrow from the order list?
15:36:20 <Rubidium> does the * look okay?
15:41:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice boat :-)
15:42:24 <Zuu> In OpenGFX its a double arrow >> in the orders list. I guess its actually a sprite rather than something from the font, so it might be hard to get int into a GSText unless there is a {}-code for it that is not documented on the wiki.
15:42:35 <andythenorth> FLHerne: danmack drew it
15:43:33 <Zuu> planetmaker: which do you mean?
15:44:15 <planetmaker> sprite / thing you're "worried" about
15:44:59 <planetmaker> there's... a bullet character in the extra grf afaik
15:45:19 <planetmaker> but better... depends on how you want to display it
15:45:57 <Zuu> I was wondering if there is a bullet that can be added to english.txt that might be better visually than the dashes that I use in the screenshot.
15:47:41 <Zuu> I could try to indent the towns the same amount as the cargo requirements, but that indention seem to be hardcoded as pixles in the code rather than as spaces in a string. So I doubt I can get the same indention as that list above for any font setting.
15:48:17 <planetmaker> it's available in the sprite fonts
15:51:05 <Zuu> I guess I should add a space before the dot to get it to look a bit better.
15:52:12 <planetmaker> actually, it suffices to have no letter except a bit indentation
15:53:49 <Zuu> Yea, that is probably going to be the best.
15:54:22 <Zuu> Only expection is if a town name is soo long that it warps. But then there will be no indention for the warped part, so that should work too.
15:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if you had a GRF, i'd suggest just adding a sprite for the desired UTF-8 character...
15:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the word is "wrap", btw.
15:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> has nothing to do with startrek :)
15:56:37 <planetmaker> hm. Dots might look better after all :-)
15:56:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but... then that char should be part of the base sets
15:56:58 <frosch123> is the dot present in openttd.grf ogfx_extra.grf?
15:57:05 <frosch123> else you will have trouble with the sprite font
15:57:14 <planetmaker> I only suggested those I found there
15:57:36 <planetmaker> documentation there luckily is quite good :-)
15:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i was speaking in conditional for a reason
15:59:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (even though the grammar was probably wrong)
15:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i think the dots look fine
15:59:43 <planetmaker> I think it was right. But I still believe that NewGRFs are a bad place to introduce new characters...
16:10:49 <Zuu> Is it the dessert/snow status of the town tile that decide if the town is a dessert/snow town?
16:11:02 <Zuu> town tile = tile under town sign.
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16:18:18 <Zuu> Non-desert towns accept food right? Its just the water requirement that need to be removed (and instead increase the other requirements of those towns)
16:19:03 <planetmaker> food acceptance is a house property usually
16:19:22 <planetmaker> so every town will accept it, given proper houses + size
16:22:55 <Zuu> Good, then I'll add the 'water' requirement to food.
16:25:44 <Zuu> And in artic, food is accepted by towns both below and above snow line?
16:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, except when you load alpine.grf or something
16:26:42 <Zuu> So with default industries etc. the only real exception is that non-desert towns will not be able to accept water.
16:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just check acceptance nearby?
16:30:09 <planetmaker> I think that's right, Zuu. As water towers probably only are buildable in the desert
16:30:15 <planetmaker> but worth checking :-)
16:31:12 <Zuu> The wiki article about climates didn't contain much cover on these restrictions from this perspective.
16:31:43 <DanMacK> What are you guys up to now? Lol
16:32:03 <planetmaker> sounds like game scripts
16:32:10 * Zuu is looking over "Neighbours are important"
16:33:01 <Zuu> No fundamental news. Just a few improvements here and there within the limitations of what is possible within the 1.2.x API.
16:38:36 <supermop> is there a patch of either c-dist or yacd with a new enough nightly for GS?
16:38:59 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Might be an idea. I beleive the current limits of when goals kick in are somewhat safe, but checking actual cargo acceptance would solve things like alpine.grf as well as protecting against a town starting to require food before it is large enough to accept it.
16:39:35 <FLHerne> I don't think YACD's been updated for ages, but CDist's <100 revisions behind trunk
16:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: large towns tend to not accept food in the center, as a building can only accept either food or goods, not both
16:41:01 <Zuu> It may be that a such mechanism would cause trouble in more cases than it solves. Especially as I can't remember anyone complaining on this issue.
16:43:47 <Zuu> So I think I'll skip that for now.
16:45:22 <supermop> why did noone ever make a generic train set
16:49:20 <peter1138> it's called ukrs ;)
16:50:41 <supermop> thats what i've been using in its place
16:51:17 <supermop> something like the original trains but with more MUs would be nice
16:53:41 <supermop> just a few generations of trains a couple of choices, cheap vs powerful or something
16:54:27 <planetmaker> like opengfx+ trains?
16:54:58 <supermop> say instead of just the manley morel, there is a similar emu
16:55:35 <supermop> and so forth with the dash
16:56:36 <supermop> one or two older electrics and new diesels
16:56:49 <supermop> but still a generally low number of total trains
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17:11:45 <planetmaker> supermop, can you prepare a list of engines, their stats, including intro and decomissioning dates which would suit your needs?
17:19:41 <supermop> yes i suppose i could
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17:45:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24634 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-27 17:45:31 UTC)
17:45:43 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44 <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 69 changes by Oomjcv
17:45:45 <DorpsGek> catalan - 35 changes by arnau
17:45:46 <DorpsGek> english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:45:47 <DorpsGek> german - 8 changes by planetmaker
17:45:48 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:45:49 <DorpsGek> tamil - 25 changes by Rubidium, aswn
17:48:59 <supermop> how do i filter servers my version?
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17:49:36 <Guest3360> what exactly does "inflation" do? does all prises raisis (also the money you get for delivering)
17:49:42 <Guest3360> or only the prices of old engines?
17:50:26 <planetmaker> all prices rise. But expenses faster than income
17:51:29 *** Guest3360 is now known as roidal
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18:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the version you use is automatically on top
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18:35:24 <__ln__> is there netflix in germanland?
18:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never seen one
18:44:39 <__ln__> netflix started here last week, and it's seems to be very affordable and technically great service.
18:47:14 <Zuu> I think I saw on the news that they have started in England/UK and now scandinavia is their second market in europe.
18:50:55 <Zuu> IIRC it was said that they also plan to start up in Spain. Eventually they will probably get to Germany too.
18:51:12 <NGC3982> __ln__: It works really well around here, too
18:51:37 <NGC3982> I really like how services like this work
18:51:46 <NGC3982> Spotify + Netflix, for instance
18:52:23 <NGC3982> Monthly payments, "unlimited usage" and a fair amount of content.
18:54:21 * NGC3982 company used to be the CiC unit for Spotify
18:55:13 <NGC3982> The lack of customer credit and debt collection is quite effective.
18:55:18 <Zuu> Althrough it is kind of irritating when some CD that you have been listening on for a year suddenly vannish from Spotify and is impossible to buy on even Amazon.
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18:56:13 <NGC3982> Though, comparing what you pay for the premium service (with that risk) and a physical CD collection - It's quite unmatchable.
18:56:54 <NGC3982> At least now when they have added so much music
18:58:07 <Zuu> Though, for 1200 SEK (premium) or 600 SEK (new add-free plan), you can buy a few CDs a year.
18:59:49 <Zuu> Its indeed good, but especially when there was only the 1200 SEK plan, you could compare it to buying some 6-8 CDs a year.
19:00:24 <__ln__> i suppose that's the business idea behind Spotify and Netflix.. the vast majority of people spend more on the subscription than they would spend on CDs or rental movies per year.
19:04:17 * __ln__ spends 0€ per year on rental movies
19:05:30 <andythenorth> 13 industries left to migrate :P
19:05:48 * Zuu has used some on-demand retal services, but never reached a long term cost that reach the fee for netflix.
19:06:58 <Zuu> In order for netflex to "pay", I need to watch more than 2 movies in average per month.
19:12:26 <NGC3982> Zuu: According to Last.fm, i use roughly 100 hours of Spotify a month.
19:12:53 <NGC3982> That's worth every penny, for me at least :)
19:13:13 <NGC3982> __ln__: Of course, as you said with rental movies.
19:13:32 <NGC3982> It's a great way to reduce piracy and at the same time make people use the material.
19:13:56 <NGC3982> At least as far as i think.
19:14:01 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Great job, sport.
19:15:50 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Will you let us know when the SFIRS 0.0.1 is done?
19:16:00 <__ln__> considering how much e.g. Viasat would cost per month, and how crap it is (both technically and contentwise), 7,99€ for netflix is really cheap.
19:18:10 <Zuu> Indeed. I've ended my TV subscription and for that I can easily pay for the content that I want to see and still reduce the total cost.
19:18:18 <NGC3982> Spotify did, luckily.
19:18:40 <NGC3982> And a thing that i love is that you don't lock the fuck up on twelve month subscription crap ass-twat-faces.
19:22:26 <andythenorth> anyone added smoke yet?
19:24:34 <__ln__> viasat's movie thing costs 19,95€/month, and afaik it contains 1 HD channel and four or five bad-bitrate-SD channels.
19:27:54 <oskari89> andythenorth: Do you have cargo chart for SFIRS?
19:29:04 <NGC3982> ./topic Welcome to #OpenTTD - It's made out of people!"
19:29:19 <andythenorth> there are logs giving my view on further mention of soylent
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20:40:55 <TrueBrain> any math freak in the house?
20:42:58 <TrueBrain> meh, what a boring channel :(
21:02:45 <TrueBrain> I can now selectively mirror files
21:02:52 <TrueBrain> so .. you owe me a mirror for OpenTTD :P
21:03:23 <Warod> not unpossible, yes. :)
21:04:12 <Warod> do you do geoIP based mirror selection?
21:04:28 <Warod> so we could essentially provide mostly for .fi users?
21:04:46 <TrueBrain> mirrors offload to othermirrors if they get stressed
21:04:54 <TrueBrain> so during a release that wont really be the case
21:05:18 <TrueBrain> the next closest mirror is HU, so all surrounding countries would also be knocking on your door
21:05:21 <Warod> how much mbps are we talking about on releases?
21:05:37 <TrueBrain> no clue really .. never did the math
21:06:01 <Warod> how many downloads in a day all together?
21:06:11 <TrueBrain> loading our stats page .. lets see ...
21:06:21 <TrueBrain> Last day: 3131, Last Week: 25886
21:06:44 <TrueBrain> 1.2.2 was downloaded 185k times
21:06:49 <Warod> is that normal day or when was the release out?
21:06:59 <TrueBrain> that is today, so "normal"
21:07:47 <TrueBrain> the Yogcast caused 30k downloads a day
21:07:49 <Rubidium> there have been four days with more than 10k downloads
21:08:31 <TrueBrain> lets say 10M for a binary (over-estimated, but meh)
21:08:40 <TrueBrain> so that would be 300GB that day
21:08:45 <TrueBrain> which was a peak day
21:08:58 <Rubidium> and the only discernable peaks are beta1 (just before Christmas) and .0 (begin Q2)
21:09:04 <TrueBrain> you do make me wonder ... I could in theory implement bandwidth trottled mirrors
21:09:17 <TrueBrain> like: max N GB per day
21:09:22 * planetmaker donates an "h" to tb
21:09:24 <TrueBrain> I could also restrict to like: only from FI
21:09:37 <Warod> TrueBrain: well.. not that much of a traffic then. :)
21:09:52 <TrueBrain> then why are you bugging me getting those details
21:10:05 * TrueBrain slaps Warod .. making me work .. pffff
21:10:26 <Warod> You're ment to be coding! ;)
21:10:43 <TrueBrain> so, prep us a mirror :P I only need rsync access ;)
21:11:16 * krinn think TrueBrain need an excuse to slaps someone anyway
21:11:19 <planetmaker> and some bandwidth ;-)
21:11:20 <TrueBrain> 100GB, I always yell
21:11:32 <TrueBrain> but you only want a selective mirror, not?
21:11:38 <TrueBrain> so only release and latest nightly?
21:11:51 <Warod> yeah, that would be the most meaningful
21:12:14 <TrueBrain> so say 5GB, and I will be more than happy
21:12:19 <Warod> don't really see why we should keep the old stuff there.. that nobody downloads anyways. :)
21:12:45 <planetmaker> zbase will be 250MB. ogfx+trains 150MB
21:12:48 <TrueBrain> Warod: yeah, we will be downgrading all mirrors in what they serve
21:12:51 <planetmaker> so easily a few GB, TrueBrain
21:12:53 <TrueBrain> old content will just come from our own server, which is fine
21:13:03 <planetmaker> zbase WILL be popular
21:13:10 <TrueBrain> owh, yeah, forgot about 32bpp ...
21:13:16 <Warod> TrueBrain: Yeah. That kind of mirroring is much easier to come by. :)
21:13:19 <TrueBrain> euh ... I guess I will put the minimal requirement to 10GB then :P
21:13:41 <TrueBrain> Warod: yeah; we have a few people that dont mind hosting the 45k files we serve atm
21:13:46 <TrueBrain> but for most people it is unneeded :P
21:13:49 <Warod> TrueBrain: yeah. Not a prob. Even the 100 GB would not be the problem if I did this 'offically'. :P
21:14:07 <TrueBrain> well, it would be lovely if you can cook something up
21:14:12 <Warod> TrueBrain: We do mirror all the public map data of whole country...
21:14:21 <Ammler> does the new mirror script also autoskip temporarly unavailable hosts?
21:14:21 <Warod> TrueBrain: About 4 TB worth of data. :)
21:14:35 <TrueBrain> depends on your word "temporary"
21:14:41 <TrueBrain> it contains all the hosts to which it could rsync last
21:14:45 <TrueBrain> I might add http checks later
21:14:50 <Ammler> going offline without telling you :-)
21:15:18 <TrueBrain> atm it just replaces the current balancer
21:15:22 <TrueBrain> but is more reactive and more clever
21:15:36 <Ammler> like the issue with peters mirror lately
21:17:46 <TrueBrain> it doesnt have the intention to fix that atm
21:17:52 <TrueBrain> if it rsyncs, it assumes http works
21:17:54 * Rubidium finds it quite interesting that the average number of downloads on Monday and Tuesday are the same
21:17:57 <TrueBrain> so downtime can still be 24h
21:19:36 <Warod> you could do a poller which only fetches a header. :P
21:21:07 <Ammler> the issue might be that the balancer then prefers such hosts, because they don't produce traffic
21:23:28 <Warod> but I'll have to get some sleep. :S
21:23:29 <TrueBrain> in time I might add a check, which does a HEAD call to a mirror once every N minutes
21:23:35 <TrueBrain> but .. not today :)
21:23:38 <TrueBrain> sleep well Warod :)
21:24:09 <Warod> I definitely hope I do. ;D
21:24:46 <Warod> and the hotel sucked... days were too damn long. :P
21:25:03 <Ammler> depends how you sum the traffic for the balancer, it could be an issue
21:25:04 <Warod> was only one day at home last week really. :S
21:25:24 <TrueBrain> ugh; hotel life, its a bitch
21:25:33 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I dont understand what you try to say?
21:25:57 <Ammler> if a host is down, it doesn't produce traffic, so the balancer sends all request there
21:26:27 <TrueBrain> how do you think the balancer knows traffic?
21:26:37 <Warod> Ammler: When the host check is implemented it'll be dropped out of the pool in few minutes if it doesn't respond to the requests properly.
21:26:55 <TrueBrain> it is not like we measure how much the client is really using ;)
21:27:06 <TrueBrain> when I redirect a client to a mirror, I add the size of the file to its usage
21:27:10 <Ammler> so you simply count the "clicks"?
21:27:16 <TrueBrain> even if the client aborts, for al lI care, the bandwidth was used
21:27:44 <Ammler> ok, then it might be even a kind of solution for the host is down too
21:28:48 <TrueBrain> I mean, there is not really another way to measure 'traffic'
21:28:52 <TrueBrain> unless we instal shit on each mirror
21:28:56 <TrueBrain> which is a no-go for many of them :)
21:29:47 <Ammler> true, and if you could check, if it really worked, you could also disable it :-)
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21:55:46 <__ln__> yes it is, finally getting back the lost hour
21:56:16 <TrueBrain> where did you lose it?
21:56:54 <glx> it will be back in 3 hours
21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "where were you when you lost it, 6 months ago?"
21:59:03 <TrueBrain> Winter time only lasts for 5 months
22:00:00 <__ln__> the whole idea is absurd
22:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that never stopped anybody :p
22:00:38 <TrueBrain> hihi; that is funny because it is true :D
22:35:03 <TrueBrain> programmed for 10+ hours straight
22:35:09 <TrueBrain> and I wonder why I am tired :P
22:35:59 <planetmaker> :-) I guess you earned your sleep then
22:36:42 <TrueBrain> yeah; guess I delay launching the new balancer till tomorrow :P
22:36:56 <TrueBrain> the new stats page is AWESOME
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22:41:56 <TrueBrain> it tells exactly when the next sync will be
22:42:00 <TrueBrain> what mirrors are doing
22:42:07 <TrueBrain> if they are synced, broken, inactive, ...
22:42:28 <TrueBrain> and, and I really like that, the bandwidth in week and day
22:42:31 <TrueBrain> instead of: since startup
22:46:23 <TrueBrain> now you are supposed to say: wow, nice!
22:48:54 <planetmaker> yup, I can say that. Looks very nice :-)
22:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> bah 3 blue people talking always confuses me
22:53:51 <TrueBrain> 680 lines of code ...
22:54:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, is turquoise, tb pink and cb red
22:55:44 <TrueBrain> hint: never start inotify with ALL_EVENTS
22:55:51 <TrueBrain> when you start 3 rsyncs, it will complain :D
22:56:00 <TrueBrain> (it also triggers events for OPEN, CLOSE, READ ...)
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23:04:51 <TrueBrain> well, time for some sleep I guess; nn
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23:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i keep hitting the "keep me logged in" button in the forums, when it throws me outevery few days anyway?
23:21:04 <supermop> on opera at home, it never keeps me logged in
23:21:24 <supermop> on opera at work, it's kept me logged in for about 2 years
23:22:30 <supermop> will the town in the title game grow if you leave it on long enough?
23:23:27 <supermop> i've seen a plane crash
23:25:00 <planetmaker> it's a normal game, supermop
23:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> with a handful hacky exceptions
23:25:57 <supermop> timetabling anything without departureboards is so frustrating
23:27:01 <supermop> played a bit of mp with FLHerne_ though and that was fun!
23:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. so make the departure bords trunk-worthy!
23:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> timetables should be about macromanagement, not micromanagement
23:32:57 <supermop> i just enjoy timing trains so that flat junctions ans station throats are clear
continue to next day ⏵
