IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-19
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00:06:20 <dar11808> hello fellow tycoons
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06:09:42 <andythenorth> FIRS has a very useful looking SLOPE_AWARE_SPRITELAYOUT, but no industries seem to use it
06:09:49 <andythenorth> Terkhen planetmaker any recollection of that? :)
06:14:24 <Rubidium> can't that be meant for a forest-type industry that you removed?
06:16:21 <andythenorth> I think it's intended for farms
06:16:31 <andythenorth> which currently use foundations for farm fields
06:18:00 * andythenorth wonders how fences work
06:18:13 <andythenorth> probably just a conditional hide sprite, based on neighbouring tile type
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06:58:57 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IIRC it was for forests and/or farms
07:08:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'll figure out what it does and update it for python :)
07:08:52 <andythenorth> might finally get used :)
07:10:19 <andythenorth> maybe I should document the new methods :P
07:10:24 <NGC3982> Is there a possibility to construct a NewGRF that alter industry production (or type of production) based on what kind of station-tile i build next to it?
07:10:28 <andythenorth> dunno if anyone else has time to help me anyway though :P
07:10:31 <andythenorth> NGC3982: not really
07:10:50 <NGC3982> I had this dream about "build your own industry"-GRF
07:10:54 <andythenorth> could change production based on 'station or not station'
07:11:00 <andythenorth> it would require shenanigans
07:11:47 <NGC3982> I feel somewhat inspired after using FIRS or ECS with the industry station renewal set.
07:20:56 <TyrHeimdal> I started playing a single-player game with FIRS this week...
07:21:12 <TyrHeimdal> man, that is complex and time consuming to build for alone
07:21:45 <NGC3982> FIRS is nothing compared to ECS in my book
07:22:00 <NGC3982> That maximum delivery cap is hard as stone.
07:22:12 <TyrHeimdal> haven't seen ECS, checking it out now
07:22:28 <NGC3982> TyrHeimdal: Im actually running an early FIRS game on my server if you want to try it out. :)
07:23:00 <andythenorth> TyrHeimdal: when I'm done recoding FIRS, there'll be an option for simpler versions (fewer industries)
07:23:14 <TyrHeimdal> andythenorth: cool
07:23:42 <NGC3982> andythenorth: No! Make moar! mooaaar! *on knees*
07:24:10 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'll check that when I'm back home, a phone is not a great tool for reviewing... those objectified industries look nice, though :)
07:24:33 <TyrHeimdal> making a screenshot of my current map now
07:25:01 <NGC3982> TyrHeimdal: Otherwise, ttd.dndr.se :-)
07:25:10 <TyrHeimdal> I have learned a lot already, building better and better. Started rather horribly I must say.
07:26:22 <TyrHeimdal> hmmm...saving a giant screen shot on 2kx2k sort of made openttd non-responsive ^^
07:26:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: thanks :)
07:26:55 <andythenorth> NGC3982: exactly how can you add MOAR to FIRS? o_O
07:27:03 <andythenorth> it's already pretty much MOAR to the max
07:27:36 <NGC3982> Well, i do love cargo chaining.
07:29:24 <andythenorth> it's pretty much at the cargo limit
07:30:04 <NGC3982> Well, the number of cargos are fine, that's not it.
07:30:19 <NGC3982> Or well, nothing is "it", ECS and FIRS are fantastic
07:30:30 <NGC3982> But because they are grand and allows absurd builds
07:34:50 <TyrHeimdal> hmmm... a giant screenshot of a huge map....didn't expect that sort of filesize ^^
07:38:13 <Rubidium> try opening it in your favourite image editor
07:38:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, the slope awareness was for farms and forests and alike. But never really used
07:38:43 <TyrHeimdal> it stopped on 1186Mb
07:38:48 <Rubidium> hallihallo planetmaker
07:39:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll rectify that soon :)
07:40:07 <planetmaker> did I read correctly that firs has no forests anymore?
07:42:38 <andythenorth> I'm done making big changes to industries and cargos
07:42:54 <andythenorth> I'm working to get snow sprites done, then economies
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07:47:00 <Terkhen> andythenorth: feel free to steal as much industry chain code from OpenGFX+ Industries as you need... it might not be directly useful because of the "language" change, but it may still show how we solved the problems with industry customization via parameter
07:50:40 <andythenorth> Terkhen: does it use a lot of action 6 and such?
07:51:21 <Terkhen> no idea, it is nml... I barely remember nfo :P
07:52:22 <Terkhen> lots of if elses with complex condions based on parameters and relationship within industries and cargos
07:53:23 <andythenorth> I'll have a look
08:05:10 <TyrHeimdal> hmmm, seems windows picture viewer has some trouble opening this 1.2Gb png...
08:06:43 <NGC3982> Afaik, it has to load everything into your RAM
08:07:11 <NGC3982> And that can lead to trouble.
08:07:20 <TyrHeimdal> well, it crashed after 5-6 minutes
08:07:29 <TyrHeimdal> photoshop opend it in under a minute
08:07:58 <TyrHeimdal> and reserved 1.9Gb RAM
08:08:11 <TyrHeimdal> so i call bad code from MS
08:08:23 <Warod> Waay back then I kind of figured out why NASA shared few huge photos in uncompressed format... I decided back then that .jpg would be much more space efficient and handy so I compressed the 3 GB image as 70 MB JPG with my quite new, powerfull 350 MHz machine. It turned out to be a bad idea. The compressed image was never viewable again with any rig back then. ;)
08:09:32 <Warod> hmm.. it would be very nice to find the jpg though.. and see how bad it'll be on current hardware. ;)
08:15:59 <TyrHeimdal> hmmm, will the screenshot look very weird if I rotated the image 45 degrees?
08:16:19 <TyrHeimdal> it would save a lot of uneeded pixels
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08:27:14 <andythenorth> NGC3982: tried it with CHIPS?
08:27:52 <NGC3982> I know i have CHIPS downloaded, but i can't remembed what it does..
08:29:03 <NGC3982> Yes, i should have used that on the server aswell
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08:52:41 <Alberth> or you are just happy to see me? :)
08:54:05 <NGC3982> "Is that a rabbit in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"
08:55:11 <NGC3982> I have a train that loads both Man.supplies and Goods
08:55:20 <NGC3982> I want it to go to location B filled with both
08:55:34 <NGC3982> The industry at location B accepts Man.supplies, but not goods.
08:55:48 <NGC3982> I wich to unload the Man.supplies to the industry, but transfer the goods to the station.
08:56:45 <Alberth> technically yes, but not in a simple way, I think
08:57:01 <Alberth> ie one solution that should work is to visit the station twice
08:58:10 <NGC3982> Yes, ive already tried that
08:58:16 <NGC3982> But that's not ..right.
08:58:44 <Alberth> I agree it is not optimal :)
08:59:19 <Alberth> since automagic refit, people are inventing more crazy cargo loading/unloading schemes all the time :)
08:59:52 <Alberth> the order window needs to be extended, but attempts I have seen so far are very complicated
09:00:24 <Alberth> which is partly understandable, as the amount of settings is just staggering
09:00:33 <dihedral> i was just saying hello in my own weird way
09:02:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: we just need magic cargo routing :P
09:03:18 <Alberth> that may be the better solution in the end, as it makes most of the order window obsolete :p
09:03:52 <Alberth> except there is no nice magic algorithm yet :(
09:04:23 <Alberth> peter1138: yacd++ probably :)
09:05:12 <andythenorth> cargo destination generation layer
09:05:27 <Alberth> it needs a cheaper routing algorithm, which in my view is in spreading the calculation in time
09:05:48 <andythenorth> I liked the 'just go downhill on the link graph' idea :P
09:05:58 <andythenorth> give each node an elevation
09:06:02 <andythenorth> cargo always follows gravity
09:06:15 <Alberth> peter1138: something in that direction may work
09:06:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: it just shifts the problem to finding out where the hill is supposed to be
09:07:31 <andythenorth> a programmer does that bit right?
09:07:37 <andythenorth> I'm just the ideas person
09:08:08 <andythenorth> I'll give you 50% equity in my idea, but you have to make it all
09:08:18 <andythenorth> I'll keep 50% for having the idea
09:08:56 <Rubidium> but with gravity all cargo goes to a (few) sinkholes
09:09:15 <andythenorth> not with destinations :P
09:09:28 <andythenorth> you need a linkgraph for each destination-cargotype pair
09:09:31 <andythenorth> might suck for PAX
09:09:36 <Alberth> if your idea includes a properly working solution at algorithmic level, you can have the 50% :p
09:09:37 <andythenorth> works for industries I think
09:09:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: I don't have it yet, but you can add your email address to our mailing list
09:10:06 <andythenorth> I'll let you know when it's released for beta :P
09:16:30 <Alberth> you can tell santa.claus@northpole.org and it will arrive at my doorstep somewher in December
09:17:00 <NGC3982> That mail actually seems to exist.
09:17:26 <Alberth> NGC3982: of course it does!
09:22:24 <Rubidium> just sent a letter to Belugas (or any other Canadian) which they can post to Santa Claus, North Pole H0H 0H0, Cananda (interestingly... the first H is for Metropolitan Montreal)
09:22:40 <Rubidium> so by deduction, Montreal is on the North Pole
09:22:58 <planetmaker> maybe Santa Claus is a relative of belugas? ;-)
09:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> just one problem... most of us are actually closer to the north pole than he is :p
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09:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the south border of canada is about the same latitude as south germany
09:30:44 <NGC3982> I guess im in level with northern canada or something.
09:30:49 <NGC3982> Yes, but that's Canada
09:30:54 <NGC3982> It's bloody humongous.
09:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but most of the population lives at the south border
09:31:36 <NGC3982> Afaik, im on the same coordinates as the most southern tip of Greenland
09:32:14 <NGC3982> Sorry, on the same latitude.
09:33:11 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the southern most Canadian border is more like north Spain
09:33:38 <NGC3982> The tips is a 60.09, im at 58.
09:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Montréal: 45°30'N. Bordeaux: 44°50'N. Zürich: 47°22'N
09:36:22 <Rubidium> I reckon if you 'draw' a line 100 km north of Montreal you already have covered the majority of Canadian citizens
09:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that would put only Terkhen [and the odd person from the USA or brazil] more southern than Belugas
09:40:23 <Rubidium> the 3 northern 'provinces' (more than 1/3 of area, less than 1/300 of population)
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10:35:16 <Noldo> And everybody knows that Santa lives in Finland
10:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> to the average american, finland is basically the same as north pole :p
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10:50:39 <drac_boy> any of you know of any sites a bit like dbtrains.com but for other types of german passenger trains instead?
10:50:40 <Rubidium> for the average American, Santa lives in Alaska
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11:14:19 <l403> is there a way to show stations coverage when its alrady built?
11:15:00 <Alberth> simplest solution is to open the build station window, select the same size, and hover on top of the existing one
11:16:18 <lugo> there's a patch for that
11:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the patch was kinda abandoned when it turned out that catchment area didn't work the same way as the patch author expected
11:30:19 <planetmaker> the interesting question also is: what do you want: catchment (as in delivered to station by industry) or delivery (as in delivered from station to industry)
11:31:06 <planetmaker> that those two are not the same is IMHO one of the really obscure things and very hard to communicate and certainly not intuitive
11:31:56 <drac_boy> don't forget also that just because an industry is within the catchment does not mean the actual cargo tile is touched too. thats one rather annoying thing I don't even like about the game industries tbh
11:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> a weird inconsistency is that the station builder shows both incoming and accepted cargo, but the station window only the accepted, not the incoming
11:32:47 <planetmaker> doesn't help there, yes
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11:33:32 <planetmaker> maybe that's an easy change, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
11:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have time for easy changes, though :)
11:35:23 <TyrHeimdal> that's something I've been wondering. Must the station coveer the entire industry, or is one tile enough?
11:35:26 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause it might be because to send a train to pick up something, you already can see it waiting there but to drop something off...theres no indicator of that hence why it shows that in the dialog
11:36:00 <TyrHeimdal> like, will it deliver the full ammount to the station even if the industry isn't completly covered?
11:36:06 <drac_boy> TyrHeimdal some industries are any tiles other have very specific tiles (eg oil refinery only accepts oil on like 1/4 of its footprint but other like coal mine can use any tiles)
11:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but you don't see anything before you send a wagon to pick it up
11:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (depending on your settings)
11:36:51 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause probably because you actually enabled an extra option
11:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is enabled by default
11:37:02 <drac_boy> I usually leave that one off as it was meant from default. to our own
11:38:32 <planetmaker> TyrHeimdal, for delivery of cargo FROM industry TO station: one tile is sufficient. For acceptance of cargo from station to industry, you might need to cover the tile which accepts the cargo
11:39:16 <planetmaker> by default no cargo is delivered TO a station. As such you don't know what you could in principle pick-up on an existing station
11:39:25 <planetmaker> only the cargos it'd accept
11:40:47 <drac_boy> bt OT but I always find it too funny to see a player that always uses 'always unload' even for custom industries like PBI and you wonder why they got a lot of cargos waiting at the station and less profits
11:45:20 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Does bringing food and alcohol to a hotel increase the output of passengers?
11:45:57 <TyrHeimdal> planetmaker: ok, thanks
11:46:36 <TyrHeimdal> I made a screenshot of my enitre 2kx2k map in hopes of getting some pointers on improvements. Soon figured out it would be... inpractical :P
11:47:11 <planetmaker> agreed. 2k^2k maps are impractical
11:48:50 <Markk> I like to play on quite huge maps or really small, not really anything in between.
11:49:09 <planetmaker> I prefer the possibility to play the map for several hundret game years over much unused space :-)
11:50:45 <TyrHeimdal> how do you combat engine brake downs on long ML best?
11:51:12 * drac_boy usually do 1920-2050 on 128x256 through 512x512 maps
11:51:31 <Markk> I bloody hate break downs.
11:51:45 <TyrHeimdal> is it possible to turn them off after game start?
11:52:11 <dihedral> why do java developers wear glasses?
11:52:19 <Markk> Under the Settings icon.
11:52:26 <TyrHeimdal> to prevent them from scratching out their own eyes?
11:52:29 <dihedral> because they don't see sharp
12:01:40 <andythenorth> NGC3982: hotel just produces PAX at a constant rate
12:13:43 <TyrHeimdal> what's the best way to get rid of goods?
12:13:58 <TyrHeimdal> a few small-ish trains to a lot of towns?
12:14:28 <NGC3982> It's one of the most profitable products of the game
12:14:56 <NGC3982> I usually use big trains and longer distances
12:14:56 <TyrHeimdal> what's the best way to get awsome income from goods?
12:15:36 <TyrHeimdal> yeah, but a town will stop accepting goods if it gets to much delivered, right?
12:16:29 <TyrHeimdal> but it used to, right?
12:16:40 <TyrHeimdal> or have I been dreaming..?
12:16:42 <NGC3982> Towns that stop accepting goods is based on rating, and what houses exist in the vicinity of the station.
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12:18:08 <NGC3982> Keeping a good rating will also keep your town accepting goods, if they did when you first started shipping it.
12:18:22 <TyrHeimdal> so if the towns are set to not grow, and a station accepts goods, then it will allways accept it?
12:18:25 <TyrHeimdal> since it won't change?
12:35:50 <BadBrett> i'm getting the weirdest results now... when i added a second tilelayout to a industry, that uses different spritelayouts and spritesets... it's like the second tilelayout overwrites the data from the first one, because the first tilelayouts contains spritelayouts from the second tilelayout... but i've double checked and everything seems to have unique names
12:55:43 <planetmaker> if you did what you say, would see what you'd expect ;-)
13:07:50 <BadBrett> i'll check again then
13:08:44 <planetmaker> generally: make it easy to help you. Your question doesn't make it easy. It makes it as difficult to help you nearly as it can be
13:09:03 <planetmaker> but it's you who wants the help
13:09:26 <planetmaker> debugging doesn't work without the (complete) code which you try to debug
13:09:51 <planetmaker> thus minimally working examples which don't do what you expect to do are the best thing to ask questions about
13:10:12 <planetmaker> (thus include code+lang+required graphics which just need throwing nml at it to test results)
13:11:07 <BadBrett> yeah i know, but the code is so long that i would have to rewrite it... i'm pretty sure i've made a mistake somewhere, i just wanted to ask first if this was a common problem :)
13:11:13 <planetmaker> 2nd best (but much easier for the author, thus you) is the full source
13:12:02 <BadBrett> if i don't get it to work, i'm gonna post the code on the forums
13:12:28 <BadBrett> like i did with my non-working animations :)
13:12:56 <planetmaker> that's not a "minimally working example"
13:13:01 <planetmaker> nor any working example
13:13:42 <BadBrett> i'm doing my best :)
13:14:07 <planetmaker> and honestly, that's why I read it and thought "oh well, too complicated to test as I need to write a whole grf around it to check"
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14:18:45 <TyrHeimdal> FIRS...: when a stockyard states 3t pr 8t manufactoring supplies delivered and 5t pr 8t livestock delivered. 8t pr 8t when both are delivered withing a month of each other.
14:19:19 <TyrHeimdal> does that requre 3t and 5t respectvily, or will 1 unit + 5t do the trick?
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14:26:31 <Terkhen> 1t and 1t each month will cause a 8t->8t for both cargos IIRC
14:27:56 <TyrHeimdal> that makes everything a bit simpler
14:28:20 <TyrHeimdal> Terkhen: thank you :)
14:28:58 <planetmaker> yes. each cargo needs to be supplied 1t per month. Then conversion will be 1:1
14:29:06 <planetmaker> for all other tons
14:29:09 <planetmaker> of whatever cargo
14:29:19 <TyrHeimdal> sounds more like a bug then a feature, really :)
14:29:37 <TyrHeimdal> don't get me wrong, I'm glad it works like that :)
14:29:52 <planetmaker> requiring exact cargo ratios is a very very very very very very very big PITA for gameplay
14:32:20 <TyrHeimdal> I set up trains for that in my game currently
14:32:45 <TyrHeimdal> approximations to number of cargo cars of each to get as close as possbile
14:33:01 <TyrHeimdal> on the same engine that is
14:38:27 <Alberth> now hope each car has the same amount of cargo loaded :p
14:42:12 <TyrHeimdal> I did the calculations in a spreadsheet and calculated how many tons a car held of each type, then set up the train with as close to the ratio as possible :)
14:42:28 <TyrHeimdal> then did a full load all at a central pick-up-point
14:42:36 <planetmaker> full load all or any?
14:43:05 <TyrHeimdal> no point if "any" :)
14:43:20 <TyrHeimdal> but, like I said, this makes it a lot easier
14:45:04 <TyrHeimdal> example: milk delivery - 5 cars * 30t milk + 3 cars * 25 crates of manufactoring supplies = a ratio of 0.595238. The optimal ratio was 0.6.
14:46:26 <TyrHeimdal> Guess I'll go for some sort of "hack" now. Just found the delivery truck trick
14:46:31 <Alberth> I never make such calculations :)
14:47:02 <TyrHeimdal> well, I guess that's becouse their not needed :P
14:47:55 <TyrHeimdal> I stand by my first choice :P
14:48:44 <planetmaker> TyrHeimdal, the (IMHO) easier way to balance this is to use trains with one cargo only. And send different amounts of trains with the two required cargo to the respective station. But for low amounts your approach might be better
14:51:27 <TyrHeimdal> planetmaker: but it's no point in balancing it, is it?
14:51:43 <TyrHeimdal> so I'll remove the crate cars from my milk trains
14:51:55 <TyrHeimdal> and deliver the minimum ammount by other means
14:54:14 <planetmaker> TyrHeimdal, as long as you make sure that at least one vehicle per cargo arrives each month there's no point with FIRS to balance it
14:54:56 <planetmaker> the advantage of a mixed train is that you can be 100% sure that each cargo arrives each month
14:55:20 <TyrHeimdal> could ofc just down scale it to 1 car + the main delivery
14:55:21 <planetmaker> so it might be a good thing. Maybe I'd make trains such that they have one wagon of the other cargo :-)
14:56:07 <planetmaker> then you can ship the amounts of cargo you want of each type but at the same time make sure always to have both delivered
14:56:07 <TyrHeimdal> Do you use vehicle groupings normaly?
14:56:18 <planetmaker> well. shared orders
14:56:22 <planetmaker> grouping ... often
14:56:33 <TyrHeimdal> Yeah, I use shared orders
14:56:53 <planetmaker> to quickly look at all wood trains for instance
14:57:10 <planetmaker> e.g. to replace also their engines only
14:57:11 <TyrHeimdal> so you group by type of cargo
14:57:11 <efess> and to quickly replace all wood tranis
14:57:36 <planetmaker> grouping criteria depend on the game. On my goals, TyrHeimdal
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15:58:19 <andythenorth> is that a model train scale?
15:59:12 <Rubidium> nope, a postal code in Canada
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16:29:12 <planetmaker> yes... but easily jamming for moderate to heavy traffic
16:32:48 <Terkhen> andythenorth: WRT oil_wells.py, it looks understandable to me
16:33:18 <Terkhen> besides maybe a general description at the beginning of the file, IMO you don't need many more comments, otherwise you will end up writing a comment for each spritelayout and industry layout
16:33:44 <NGC3982> peter1138: Where does it jam?
16:33:53 <andythenorth> Terkhen: also the comments age badly :)
16:34:04 <NGC3982> Im actually increasing the number of trains
16:34:14 <NGC3982> So, i guess im up for a treat.
16:34:24 <andythenorth> I think you have to know nml well to be able to use this python stuff
16:34:44 <andythenorth> I'm not trying to make a general newgrf framework that hides nml
16:35:03 <NGC3982> peter1138: Im sorry, i keep hilighting you.
16:35:11 <NGC3982> planetmaker: Where can it jam?
16:35:54 <planetmaker> only pickup trains in the stations and another pickup train waiting
16:36:29 <NGC3982> The only pickup trains are in the Export Management station.
16:49:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: now that you mention that, maybe I understood it because the code is quite close to our pnml templates, although it looks nicer
16:50:05 <andythenorth> Terkhen: the code is a near-exact python implementation of your templates :)
16:50:14 <andythenorth> I literally took the pnml and swapped out cpp for chameleon
16:50:21 <andythenorth> it pretty much worked straight away :)
16:50:46 <Terkhen> writing the same comments about how to code an industry at every industry file would serve no purpose, though... maybe the documentation should go into a central file? I don't know if you have a "template definition" file with that new thingie :)
16:51:01 <andythenorth> the normal route for python people would be to go read the classes
16:51:08 <andythenorth> same as other languages I guess
16:51:13 <andythenorth> and I should document the classes better
16:56:53 <Nat_aS> NGC3982 would that be the postal code for the north pole
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17:17:17 <TyrHeimdal> any tips on merging lines into a mainline?
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17:45:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24614 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-10-19 17:45:09 UTC)
17:45:17 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18 <DorpsGek> latvian - 17 changes by Parastais
17:45:44 <TyrHeimdal> ok, next question: Is there a way to "pack" the main lines?
17:46:14 <TyrHeimdal> "pack trains" I should say
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17:51:47 <TyrHeimdal> or to get trains to start accelerating from a complete stop and fit into a slot on the main line?
17:52:01 <TyrHeimdal> (from a side track)
17:54:09 <NGC3982> Nat_aS: Oh, were you talking about my nick?
17:56:08 * andythenorth needs to do industry fences next
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17:57:53 <andythenorth> we want to be able to have different styles of fence for industries right?
17:58:09 <andythenorth> ach nvm, I'll duck tape it
17:58:38 <andythenorth> something odd just happened
17:59:02 <andythenorth> I visited suggestions forum and I am neither confused nor angry
18:00:04 <Prof_Frink> I go with gaffer, just to avoid that argument.
18:00:06 <NGC3982> Duct- or duck tape seems to be the samething.
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18:07:08 <efess> Duck is the brand, duct is the product :D
18:12:47 <Chris_Booth> that sound quackers
18:19:40 <andythenorth> fences fences fences
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18:21:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker Terkhen Yexo which of you did the current FIRS fences? :)
18:21:40 <Yexo> or at least I did some work on it
18:21:52 <andythenorth> I thought it was simple, but now I find it's not :)
18:22:02 <planetmaker> I believe I worked on that (too)
18:22:05 <Yexo> it's just a few varaction2's
18:22:49 <Yexo> anyway, what do you want to change/add?
18:23:19 <andythenorth> I want to replicate it 1:1 in my new templating
18:23:34 <andythenorth> I'm just trying to understand which parts are handled in the layout, and which in the varact 2 chain
18:23:52 <andythenorth> e.g. FENCES_EXCLUDE_BY_CLASS is varact 2 chain afaict
18:24:45 <planetmaker> the way I remember: you include a template for each side which could have fences
18:24:55 <planetmaker> there's also a template which does it for all 4 sides at once
18:25:05 <Yexo> FENCE_NE/SW/NW/SE are part of the layout
18:25:05 <planetmaker> and a fence is drawn if the adjacent tile does not belong to the same industry
18:25:17 <andythenorth> yup, the layout part I think I understand, it seems easy
18:25:29 <andythenorth> the varact 2 point is just filling registers?
18:26:00 <planetmaker> well... you hide the sprite, if the adjecent tile is not of the industry. simple tile query
18:26:07 <Yexo> and it has become significantly more complicated since the last time I looked at it
18:26:16 <Yexo> it didn't support sloped fences before
18:26:26 <andythenorth> sloped fences would be shiny
18:26:26 <planetmaker> so we worked both on it :-)
18:26:34 <andythenorth> slopes not actually used yet
18:26:42 <planetmaker> indeed the slope check made it complicated. You have to store the sprite to draw in a register
18:26:47 <andythenorth> I have no need or desire to change the nml logic here, just how it's setup
18:27:17 <planetmaker> similar decision path as for snowyness. Just that slope is the argument to check for instead of height
18:27:24 <planetmaker> and there's 19 slopes and only 4 heights ;-)
18:27:30 <planetmaker> *height differences
18:27:40 <andythenorth> I may leave most of these templates untouched for now
18:27:59 <andythenorth> the pnml step still works
18:28:38 * andythenorth will try some things, thanks
18:29:04 <andythenorth> Yexo: once again, having real python objects in scope makes nml way more useful to me ;)
18:29:09 <andythenorth> same as BANDIT and FISH
18:29:23 <andythenorth> dunno if that's something nml should attempt though
18:29:32 <Yexo> are you writing nml code from python?
18:29:39 <Yexo> or interfacing directly with the nmlc python code?
18:29:57 <andythenorth> writing nml code from python
18:30:04 <andythenorth> strictly, I'm writing pnml with CPP in it
18:30:17 <andythenorth> which is baroque, but works excellently
18:36:24 <andythenorth> there is _some_ magic in there, but hopefully not too much :)
18:37:41 <Yexo> does it matter to you if I rewrite the ADD_FENCES and related defines?
18:37:49 <Yexo> they can work more efficiently
18:38:26 <andythenorth> it only matters if I then go on to destroy your work :)
18:38:36 <andythenorth> I need to put fences into my spritelayout template
18:38:49 <andythenorth> which is spritelayouts.pynml
18:39:08 <andythenorth> the varact 2 stuff I won't touch, only the spritelayout part
18:40:12 <Yexo> I'm doing a few (probably small) changes in tile_fences.pnml
18:40:14 <andythenorth> Yexo: my plan is to have the industry *.py modules define which fences to use and where, but I can template that in to whatever / however you do it
18:40:31 <Yexo> no changes to the interface
18:40:32 <andythenorth> I'll do nothing until you commit ;)
18:42:17 <andythenorth> yeah that won't touch what I'm doing ;)
18:44:06 <andythenorth> oh Yexo one thing....FIRS trunk won't compile now without chameleon (sorry, but I figured another dep is not hard for most FIRS devs)
18:44:50 <Yexo> seems I already have that
18:45:09 <andythenorth> FISH and BANDIT use it
18:45:37 <Yexo> isn't it also time to remove the old nfo code from the repo?
18:45:56 <andythenorth> it's no longer a useful reference point
18:46:00 <andythenorth> do it as r3k? :P
18:47:30 <Yexo> ok, pushed the fences change as r2996
18:47:35 <Yexo> will leave the rest up to you
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19:08:09 <Yexo> planetmaker: ah, I just found a (very old) firs_fences.diff containing nfo code
19:08:15 <Yexo> that's why it looks so different :p
19:10:33 <planetmaker> oh oh :-) that is indeed old
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19:56:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> - you pay tripple interests on a negative bank balance, thus to collect interests on a negative cash value in the monthly loop additionally to the interest collected on the loan in the quarterly loop. The reason herein lies that this avoids the cheat to not pay interests on negative money and not go bancrupt either.
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19:56:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> trying to get that in
19:57:43 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx, interests on loan remains unchainged. Interest on negative cash is newly introduced. And should be quite a bit higher than interest on loan
19:57:48 <planetmaker> that's one way to implement it
19:58:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill paste something, just tell me if it looks ok :P
19:59:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> line 1 is original code for the charge of interest on loan
19:59:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> line 2-5 are my suggested lines for charging negatives
19:59:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> and 6 is the so far unchanged loan-formulas backtracing it to a monthly fee
20:01:24 <frosch123> instead of multiplying the interest for negative cache, you can also subtract it more often
20:01:31 <frosch123> i.e. monthly instead of quarterly
20:01:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 step at a time frosch
20:01:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know basic java programming
20:01:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i do stuff in small steps
20:02:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> step 1 was implementing the different condition
20:02:02 <frosch123> monthly interest with the same rate also results in 3x the interest of the loan (neglecting interests to interests)
20:02:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> step2 is the charging on negatives
20:02:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> and step 3 is to make it count on a monthly or even daily basis or whatever :P
20:02:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> still wondering why the hell SubtractMoneyFromCompany(CommandCost(EXPENSES_OTHER, _price[PR_STATION_VALUE] >> 2));
20:02:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> is in the interest function
20:03:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> for me its a piece of random unrelated code that is put there for "we didnt put it elsewhere" reasons
20:04:09 <frosch123> it something that is paid quarterly :)
20:05:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> currently economy is checked quarterly
20:05:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> same for bankrupcy
20:05:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> its checked on quarterly basis
20:05:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> i already wrote a change of condition as suggested
20:05:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> so now im just checking if ^^ that paste seems ok for adding a charge-fee on negative cash (whenever i guess)
20:06:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> check economy.cpp
20:07:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> and search for CompaniesPayInterest() function
20:07:15 <frosch123> are you using hg or svn?
20:07:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> i still dont see why stationshit is there
20:07:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> i use git on trinitycore
20:07:27 <frosch123> i.e. can you post diffs instead :)
20:07:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah i can post a diff
20:07:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> the first change is posted as diff
20:07:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i didnt edit function yet
20:08:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> just open un-editted one and read the last line of that function, maybe you know why the fuck its there
20:08:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> the comment is pretty clear, and function name indicates its loan/interest related
20:08:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> but the stationshit is putting me off
20:08:50 <frosch123> oh, so the interest stuff is actually run monthly
20:08:58 <frosch123> i remembered that incorrectly
20:09:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> didnt check where it was called, just checking the function for now :P
20:10:30 <frosch123> so, it might just be a "if (c->money < 0) yearly_fee += -c->money * (3*_economy.interest_rate) / 100;"
20:10:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> meh i was just thinking something like that
20:11:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> mine lacked a way to quickly add it to the yearly fee
20:11:34 <frosch123> the 3 is now completely arbitrary though :)
20:11:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> true planet said tripple interest
20:11:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> you can make it a difficulty setting/variable
20:12:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> but then again im new so i want to keep it basic codewise etc
20:12:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> small changes a time :)
20:12:24 <frosch123> the idea behind the 3 was the assumption that loan interest would only have been quartely, so balance interest coulr be the same amount but monthly
20:12:36 <frosch123> but as it turns out, the loan interest is also monthyl
20:13:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> so 3 can be removed
20:13:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> unless you want a parameter there for difficulty settings?
20:13:35 <frosch123> it can be any number that suits gameplay :)
20:13:49 <frosch123> there is no specific number that just appears useful :)
20:14:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> fair enough then ill just make it 1x interest on negatives
20:14:17 <frosch123> < 1 is not useful, 1 would be boring, so, something > 1 :)
20:14:43 <frosch123> no idea how big the impact is on gameplay
20:14:52 <frosch123> whether 2, 3, 4, or 8 would hurt :p
20:15:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> as i said, is it hard to make it a parameter that can be set?
20:15:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> and/or follows the preset difficulty settings?
20:16:02 <frosch123> just grep for "interest_rate"
20:16:07 <frosch123> and duplicate everything related to it :p
20:16:31 <frosch123> only 5 hits in total
20:17:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> im on a wintendo and i hate grep shit
20:17:31 <frosch123> well, just use whatever file search
20:17:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> by making the param 1 you just charge same interest on negatives as on loan
20:17:47 <Rubidium> ... except windows' search
20:17:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> so if you have -500k its the same as having 500k loan
20:17:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> sounds fair enough to me
20:18:05 <Rubidium> that has an amazing ability to not find stuff
20:18:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> no need to punish the mechanic even harder, for bankrupcy it doesnt matter
20:18:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> and Rubidium is right, if you wanna find something on your wintendo, you better keep your mental-map in shape
20:18:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> and/or use good file structures for yourself
20:18:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> downloads folder is my personal hellhole to find shit in
20:19:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> specially with those nice and lovely generic download names as 19013121931_018231 etc
20:19:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill keep it on 1 and post the diff, on to next step in the process
20:19:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> making the bankrupcy check a monthly one rather then a quarterly one
20:21:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> as .patch (diff format i guess)
20:22:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz making bankrupcy a monthly check seems more invasive :P
20:26:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think if i move it up/out of the bitcheck it is monthly
20:26:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> but that means ill have to alter more i think
20:27:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> also Eddi around?
20:27:48 <frosch123> he is always at home
20:28:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think that moving it to a monthly check is a bit more work then i can do myself XD, not that beserking :P
20:28:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> the actual function call is in a quarterly part
20:28:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> so moving it out there would make it monthly
20:28:59 <frosch123> quarters_of_bankruptcy also only used in 7 places :)
20:29:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> but then im interested to see how i can make it check bankrupcy before maintenance
20:29:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> simple change to months_of_bankruptcy i know
20:29:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> the point is that the function call has to be moved
20:29:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> so my suggestion would be to move the bankrupcy check to the very beginning of the tick, so effectively you are marked as bankrupt if you were negative at the end of the previous quarter, not at the beginning of this quarter
20:30:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> thats eddi's suggestion
20:30:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> now the point is where to move that bankrupt-check so it suffices that condition
20:33:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> * Monthly update of the economic data (of the companies as well as economic fluctuations).
20:33:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> void CompaniesMonthlyLoop()
20:33:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> sounds like a fair location
20:33:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> in the monthly loop
20:33:59 <frosch123> just take a look where CompanyCheckBankrupt is called
20:34:19 <frosch123> just 10 lines above that call is the check for the quarters
20:34:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> in companiesgenstatistics
20:34:31 <frosch123> while CompaniesGenStatistics is called monthly itself
20:34:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> the if(hasbit right)
20:35:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> but on eddis suggestion, if i move it out of companiesgenstatistics
20:35:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> or just up in it
20:35:27 <frosch123> well, if you do the checks monthly, is there any need for eddis suggestion?
20:35:37 <frosch123> i think it's a weird suggestion :p
20:36:01 <frosch123> bankrupcy is exactly when you cannot pay your loans :)
20:36:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> you need to check bankrupcy over what you did LAST month (aka check status @ 31 or 30th that month) not how you do beginning the next (1st)
20:37:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway so id have to move it up
20:37:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> to just above if(hasbit) ?
20:37:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i think the update rating and value has to be done in order for bankrupcy to be handled correctly
20:37:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> and by moving them out of the quarterly loop, it might end up with more calculations?
20:38:23 <frosch123> i don't think CompanyCheckBankrupt has to be in order of any of the other checks
20:38:41 <frosch123> except you have to abort the loop if it closes the company
20:38:53 <frosch123> so it must either be the last thing in a FOR_ALL_COMPANIES loop
20:39:07 <frosch123> you need a separate loop, or you have to break in some way
20:39:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think it needs the company values updated
20:40:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> specially in the case2 (multiple months/quarters flagged) it will ask other companies to take it over based on value
20:40:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah nvm it calcs value inside
20:41:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> i could ninjaplace it in the improved infra-cost function just like the weird stationshit is in interest funct
20:41:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i prefer a clean/new loop
20:42:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> that or make the bankrupcycheck function preform the loop and put the shit after interest payment
20:42:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> weird lol we do make them pay maintenance but we will ignore interest on bankrupcy check
20:48:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> now lets see where that quarterlybankrupt is at
20:48:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> you grepped it right?
20:48:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> all in economy.cpp or also in other files?
20:50:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> i found 3 in economy.cpp
20:51:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> means 0 rolls into 1 rolls into break right
20:51:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> so just editting the numbers to 3,6,9 will make the checks the same
20:52:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> as long as i add case 2,4,5,7,8 as empty's
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20:55:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> can you grep where the other 2 calls to quarters_of_bankrupcy are located?
20:59:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> found one in company_base.h
21:04:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> nvm notepad++ found them for me
21:08:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> for some reason i feel it need a declare somewhere
21:09:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> c-> is a pointer, but i cant find its define unless i replaced it already
21:09:34 <Chris_Booth> is gb not getting the latest nightly?
21:16:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a way to move my topic from suggestions to patch/fix section?
21:17:49 <Ammler> I guess, peter1138 already mentioned about issues on his mirror
21:18:10 <Yexo> <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a way to move my topic from suggestions to patch/fix section? <- sure
21:18:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think that those 3 patches implement most of the requested features
21:19:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> i didnt compile/check them yet, but since they arent that invasive i think it works as they are :P
21:20:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> _part1 is the suggested change for condition _part2 is the charging interest over negative balance and _part4 is to make the bankruptcy check a monthly check
21:20:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe i need to add part3 but i believe part4 included that
21:22:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz maybe _part4 contains everything lolz
21:25:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz another question
21:25:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a way in svn to generate a diff against previous revision?
21:25:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka i now have 3-4 diffs that i want to merge
21:26:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> but its the same as creating a diff against revision x (or x-1)
21:27:31 <Chris_Booth> oh okay just mean the silly auto update fails for me now
21:27:39 <Chris_Booth> and other uk users
21:35:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> keeps stopiing on network bs
21:36:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think _part4 is the full patch actually :P
21:40:45 <planetmaker> confiremed, Chris_Booth
21:41:21 <Chris_Booth> is it possible to temp redirect to another mirror planetmaker?
21:41:37 <planetmaker> the mirror was taken from usage
21:41:49 <planetmaker> until it is fixed
21:42:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> planetmaker that _part4 is full patch i think
21:42:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> should include all suggestions you made
21:43:35 <Chris_Booth> you are the best planetmaker
21:44:00 <Chris_Booth> or who ever removed it temp <3
21:46:28 <planetmaker> thank TB, Chris_Booth ;-)
21:46:56 <Chris_Booth> thanks TrueBrain!
21:47:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> anyone willing to check if my patch will build/compile for me?
21:47:43 <planetmaker> whether it will build for you only you can decide
21:48:11 <planetmaker> I can only check whether it compiles for me ;-)
21:48:26 <planetmaker> but... didn't you test that?
21:49:00 * planetmaker takes a look... but too late to judge anything properly today
21:50:10 <planetmaker> what about part3, ZxBiohazardZx ?
21:50:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> dunno i lost it :P
21:50:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think part 1 and 2 are actually lose
21:50:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> part 4 just ended up being the merge of all changes for some reason
21:50:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i indended 3 to be that too
21:51:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> but because i went back and changed lines from quarter to monthly 3 became 4 became all-included if im not mistaken
21:51:41 <planetmaker> so... part3 doesn't depend on part2 or part1?
21:52:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> no but it changes lines that are altered in part 1 and 2 :P
21:52:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> hence the changeset 3 became the all inclusive
21:52:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> let me try to explain
21:53:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> changes if (c->money - c->current_loan >= - _economy.max_loan) {
21:53:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah i can create a diff for 3
21:53:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> it just screwed up and generated 4 :P
21:54:09 <planetmaker> + // to prevent cheating or abuse, make companies pay interest over negative balances as well! <-- doesn't follow coding style
21:54:24 <planetmaker> /* for separate lines */
21:54:46 <planetmaker> company_months = 5 // start with an arbitrary comment in the same line
21:54:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah i see why 3 hates it
21:55:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> its because the line that is editted follows upon an editted line
21:55:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> so instead of making it a seperate change, it grabs both lines
21:56:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> editted 3 in so you can check
21:56:21 <planetmaker> use hg or git for patch queues ;-)
21:56:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> case 6: { preferred
21:56:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> or is { on newline fine?
21:57:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> we have a git?:O
21:57:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> good lemmy trash this damn svn
21:57:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> and get the git
22:02:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> Cloning into D:/Sourcecodes/OTTD/git.openttd.org...
22:03:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> wrong params? wrong location?
22:04:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> does it matter that much (aka cant you clone whole git?)
22:04:56 <frosch123> there are multiple gits there
22:04:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> apparently it does :P
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