IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-13
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03:23:12 <DanMacK> alot of talk on the droid version lately
03:28:57 <DanMacK> I downloaded it as soon as I got my phone
03:29:28 <DanMacK> Good way to test the grfs Im working on
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05:10:25 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Is there an upper limit on how much an industry can produce that's specific to each industry?
05:11:18 <hmmwhatsthisdo> I have 3 iron ore mines that are linked to a steel mill by rail - two produce 500-600 tons, but one has been hovering under 100 for quite some time and I can't figure out why.
05:11:30 <hmmwhatsthisdo> All have "Outstanding" ratings
05:14:16 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Also, is there a way to force-add a NewGRF to a save? (e.g. one that adds 32bpp trains)
05:15:41 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Oh, nvm about that last question.
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07:40:47 * andythenorth just remembered that his dream featured Eddi|zuHause
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07:46:07 <gynter> Hello, is it possible to keep the server console in foreground, but also log everything to a logfile?
07:46:55 <frosch123> hmm, or was it called differently
07:47:20 <__ln__> wearing a tie is a good idea, but would you like tee instead?
07:47:30 <gynter> sorry, need moar coffee
07:51:25 <planetmaker> black tee please ;-)
07:51:45 <Rubidium> sorry, I don't golf ;)
07:52:16 <planetmaker> ./openttd -D | tee -a file.log &
07:55:16 <gynter> hmm, but why aren't the "dbg:" lines being logged?
07:56:49 <frosch123> maybe they go to stderr, so "./openttd -D |& tee -a file.log"
07:57:26 <planetmaker> 2&>1 missing maybe
07:57:45 <planetmaker> didn't know that :-)
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08:00:56 <andythenorth> what does today hold?
08:02:05 <planetmaker> wrong window... still not focus for mouse-over enabled. It's getting me more often than nice :-)
08:04:24 <frosch123> yeah, interestingly "focus on mouse-over" is quite important for big screens
08:04:57 <frosch123> in the 90's that behaviour annoyed me a lot, and i always tried to disable it on weird unix machines
08:05:11 * andythenorth can't imagine this
08:05:19 <andythenorth> what are these 'big screens' you speak of? :o
08:05:22 <frosch123> that changes since having at least 2 monitors everywhere
08:05:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: those were you have to turn your head
08:05:56 * andythenorth has A4 paper-sized screen and is sticking with it
08:06:59 <andythenorth> things /me will be moaning about today include:
08:07:04 <frosch123> most impressive about 6 screens is the massive tripod (?) they are attached to :p
08:07:07 <andythenorth> - FIRS templates
08:07:19 <andythenorth> which of those can you help with? :o
08:07:23 <planetmaker> he, sounds impressive, frosch123
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08:11:59 <planetmaker> But good... now I found focuse for mouse-over :-) Much better
08:12:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I might have a little time... but I got a guest today evening, so not much
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08:20:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24587 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2012-10-13 08:20:40 UTC)
08:20:47 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Improve coding style (Juanjo)
08:23:43 <Alberth> planetmaker: a single file for nml_langcheck is becoming complicated, preferences on what to do (make a subdir in build-common, make a subdir in make-nml, make a new project, are the options I can see atm)?
08:24:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24588 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2012-10-13 08:24:28 UTC)
08:24:34 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: No need to intermingle reservation-checks with railroad checks. (Juanjo)
08:25:10 <planetmaker> Alberth, I've no problem, if you create a sub-dir
08:25:51 <Alberth> that would be the simplest, I agree :)
08:26:13 <planetmaker> if you prefer to have it a separate tool (and there's some reason for that, too), I've no issue with that, either. But it would not help *my* workflow :-P
08:34:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24589 trunk/src/window.cpp (2012-10-13 08:34:10 UTC)
08:34:16 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Return early in HandleAutoscroll() instead of nesting ifs.
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08:57:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: When are plastics plants meant to appear in-game?
08:58:22 <FLHerne> Must have popped up just now then and I missed it :P
08:58:59 <FLHerne> Was a bit surprised to find one in my 1920s-going-1930s game :-)
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09:16:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24590 /trunk/src (31 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-13 09:16:20 UTC)
09:16:27 <DorpsGek> -Feature: More options for the auto-scroll setting. (adf88)
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11:33:26 <andythenorth> why does the GUI for customising vehicle colours have pointless checkboxes?
11:33:29 <andythenorth> all they do is annoy
11:38:28 <Alberth> I'd have moved the word 'pointless' :p
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13:53:04 <BadBrett> 1) what file size do you think is a acceptable for 32bbp grf containing 1 industry? 2) in nml, if the same sprite is loaded twice or is unused, will it still affect the file size?
13:54:41 <Yexo> 1) it really depends on the industry, 1 tile without animations is completely different from 10 tiles with lots of animations
13:55:08 <BadBrett> but i'm using lots of animations
13:55:10 <Yexo> 2) unused spritesets shouldn't affect the filesize, but if you use only a single sprite out of a spriteset all of them will end up in the grf
13:55:34 <BadBrett> so the file size seems to get really big
13:55:43 <BadBrett> and i'm looking for ways to reduce it
13:56:08 <BadBrett> 4x4 industry, 3 animations frames, extra zoom levels and it's already at 8 mb
13:56:10 <Yexo> for using a sprite twice it depends on too many factors: do you use a spriteset two times or two different spritesets with the same sprites, can nml find a way to reuse the spriteset etc.
14:00:56 <Alberth> nml patch tracker seems to be outside the set of monitored entities :)
14:04:13 <BadBrett> ok... i meant, for example, if a spriteset contains duplicates of a certain sprite to make sure that it contains the same number of sprites as another spriteset... would it be better do add empty "dummy" sprites?
14:04:42 <Yexo> I think currently nml will add duplicate sprites to the newgrf in that case
14:04:59 <BadBrett> which should affect the file size i guess
14:05:12 <Yexo> there is a feature request on the issue tracker to change that, but it isn't implemented atm
14:05:51 <BadBrett> i guess a dirty solution would be to use a 1x1 blank png for these sprites
14:06:19 <BadBrett> to keep the size down
14:06:35 <Yexo> if you are sure those sprites are not referenced simply put [] in the spriteset
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14:10:13 <BadBrett> i'll try it right away
14:11:21 <BadBrett> another question... does animations and such affect the memory usage (when the animations aren't active)?
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14:13:34 <Yexo> openttd loads sprite up to sprite_cache_size in memory
14:14:16 <Yexo> so unused sprites are not actively loaded in memory, they might still be there if they are used previously
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14:26:28 <Alberth> a nice variant on the "you have news" news :)
14:30:15 <Yexo> why can't people adhere to a single coding style?
14:30:22 <Yexo> I don't care what style, as long as it's consistent
14:31:05 <Yexo> specific case: FS#5333. I really like the example, it's as simple as possible while still demonstrating the exact cause
14:31:13 <Yexo> but reading the code is a nightmare
14:31:24 <Yexo> andythenorth: it's one file with about 60 LOC
14:31:42 * andythenorth ponders what to do next
14:32:11 <andythenorth> sorting out FIRS snow is really unmotivating
14:36:02 <Alberth> Yexo: It's just like writing documents, you have to learn how to do it, and what not to do
14:36:27 <andythenorth> could a tool be written to migrate FIRS spritelayouts?
14:37:27 <Alberth> load them in NML, and examine the nodes?
14:38:00 <andythenorth> there are currently two main methods in use, one deprecated
14:38:08 <andythenorth> they need migrating from one to the other
14:38:25 <andythenorth> I have a real block about reading them for some reason
14:38:52 <andythenorth> every time I try to read this code I just see BLAH_BLAH_BLAH(BLAH)
14:39:08 <andythenorth> which is a bit silly :P
14:39:53 <andythenorth> they are commented and such
14:43:30 <andythenorth> SPRITELAYOUT_NORMAL(THIS_ID(spritelayout_2), THIS_ID(spriteset_ground), THIS_ID(spriteset_2), 48)
14:43:45 <andythenorth> probably not wrong
14:44:08 <andythenorth> an industry tile is probably pretty standard I reckon
14:44:22 <andythenorth> the kind of thing that could be represented by a class easily
14:45:16 <Alberth> hack/extend nml itself?
14:45:26 <andythenorth> I'm not a good enough programmer
14:46:09 <andythenorth> I think the inevtiable result here is that FIRS will get rewritten in python, at least for tiles
14:49:55 <andythenorth> standard rewrite fallacy :P
14:56:56 <Alberth> write a script to transform the old to the new
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15:01:25 * andythenorth tries to remember how python works
15:03:59 <Alberth> it just does what you tell it to do :p
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15:07:55 <andythenorth> so if I call a class, it will return whatever the return value from the default representation is
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15:08:30 * andythenorth is trying to avoid having an explicit render() method on a tile class
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15:12:34 <Alberth> making a class callable just to safe 7 characters makes no sense to me
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15:15:05 <andythenorth> this is why I ask you :)
15:17:27 <Alberth> just do what you know is the right thing to do ;)
15:19:00 <andythenorth> the right thing to do is learn how these CPP macros work
15:19:10 <andythenorth> instead of adding to the world's code mountain
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15:33:28 <andythenorth> I need some module like FIRS.common.py or such
15:33:38 <andythenorth> and each industry is just a .py file
15:33:54 <peter1138> Okay, so I missed Red Dwarf X. Can I watch it online?
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15:42:27 <Prof_Frink> Channel Dave has a catch-up service, but it didn't want to send me the activation email.
15:42:45 <Prof_Frink> So I just torrented it.
15:46:13 <andythenorth> if I provide a shebang, a .py file is executable right?
15:46:23 * andythenorth wonders if that works in the context of a CPP include
15:46:43 * andythenorth has invented a horrible way to mash python and CPP together for FIRS
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15:56:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Please, not even more hacky build processes... :P
15:58:36 <andythenorth> FLHerne: why not?
16:01:41 <FLHerne> It's just annoying :P
16:04:48 <andythenorth> anybody know if c preprocessor can include results of a script / executable
16:04:50 <FLHerne> Well, depends if it's hacky in a 'you need lots of seemingly unrelated utils' kind of way I guess
16:08:03 <andythenorth> no obvious mention in docs for including results of a script
16:29:34 <Alberth> (06:14:48 PM) andythenorth: anybody know if c preprocessor can include results of a script / executable <-- I know
16:30:47 <andythenorth> imagine how insane it would be if CPP could do that :P
16:30:56 <andythenorth> it's already hard enough to know what the output will be
16:31:20 <Alberth> your source is insane, mostly :)
16:31:47 <andythenorth> or just everybody's using CPP?
16:32:18 <Alberth> let's say all nml newgrf projects at devzone? :)
16:34:00 <Alberth> it is probably an overestimate, but I don't know a simpler criterium to reduce its size
16:34:32 <Alberth> supermop: ? it's not a nml newgrf project afaik :)
16:35:00 <supermop> i was deliberately misreading the abbreviation for c preprocessor
16:35:37 <supermop> as it would be very insane if chill's patch pack could include results of a script
16:35:54 <Alberth> supermop: use any newgrf :)
16:39:19 <andythenorth> need to add a python step to the makefil
16:39:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: what's the state of your changes in nml_langcheck/output.py ? I'd like to add some output
16:40:00 <andythenorth> I didn't make any changes
16:40:10 <andythenorth> I got blocked by not knowing what to put where ;)
16:41:24 <Alberth> as long as you didn't apply the Chameleon on the baby, it should be ok
16:41:50 <Alberth> what does the python step do ?
16:42:17 <Alberth> or do you know how to extend a Makefile ?
16:46:25 <andythenorth> I know how to extend the old makefile, using makefile.in
16:46:33 <andythenorth> I don't know how to extend the new, better makefile
16:50:13 <Alberth> oh, it's a horrible meta-Makefile :(
16:51:03 <Alberth> so what does the step do? create some file from some other file?
16:51:22 <andythenorth> yes, it runs a python build script to template some stuff
16:51:23 <Alberth> (06:49:20 PM) andythenorth: need to add a python step to the makefil <-- that step
16:51:32 <andythenorth> needs to run before the c preprocessor step
16:51:42 <andythenorth> I think planetmaker designed the new makefile to be more easily extended
16:53:58 <andythenorth> maybe I just extend scripts/Makefile_nml
16:55:44 <Alberth> note that the whitespace before 'python' is a tab character
16:57:19 <Alberth> and you may want to change several names
16:58:15 <andythenorth> outfile and infile? :)
16:58:21 <andythenorth> I'll keep blah.py
17:00:38 <Alberth> nicely consistent with foo.py and bar.py :)
17:01:35 <andythenorth> so if I have a *lot* of outfiles generated by my script, do I need to track them all?
17:01:57 <andythenorth> or can I do *.extension or something?
17:07:27 <Alberth> you can make a generic rule based on extension
17:10:25 <Alberth> oh, just one run produces everything? then you could use a timestamp file
17:10:44 <Alberth> or if the processing is fast, just run it always
17:11:22 <Alberth> if you want to run only processing for the outdated files, you'll need a list of course
17:11:51 <Alberth> although gnu make also has a * globbing macro to pull names from a directory
17:45:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24591 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-10-13 17:45:28 UTC)
17:45:40 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <DorpsGek> catalan - 6 changes by arnau
17:45:42 <DorpsGek> danish - 73 changes by Knogle
17:45:43 <DorpsGek> english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
17:45:44 <DorpsGek> finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
17:45:45 <DorpsGek> italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
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18:10:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: the processing should be fast, so how do I run it always?
18:13:06 <andythenorth> oh that's what a phony target is for :)
18:13:28 <Alberth> it means 'this is not a file at the disk'
18:14:07 <Alberth> otherwise it may skip building the target, depending on time stamps of that file
18:15:42 <andythenorth> missing separator
18:16:01 <Alberth> line 19 starts with a tab
18:16:13 <Alberth> as with all commands in a makefile
18:16:49 <andythenorth> it's reporting line 8 (the .PHONY)
18:17:13 <andythenorth> .PHONY takes a : according to docs
18:18:10 <andythenorth> for other grfs I wrote all the python, then had to figure the makefile out later
18:18:18 <andythenorth> this time, I thought I'd do it logically :)
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18:18:53 <Alberth> doing it in the same way every time is boring :)
18:21:20 <andythenorth> if this works...
18:21:33 <andythenorth> ...it will be interesting
18:22:07 <andythenorth> I can convert spritelayouts to cleaner templating, and leave all the production logic untouched
18:22:44 <andythenorth> and I can stop moaning about FIRS for a bit
18:24:13 <Alberth> I am sure you can find new things to moan about :)
18:24:13 <andythenorth> the file extension will be pypnml :P
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18:26:02 <GenCase> When writing a NML file, can one somehow refer to the preexisting base [orig windows grf/opengfx] graphics?
18:26:42 <andythenorth> can't remember how without looking
18:27:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm going to end up with 48 or so py files like catfood_factory.py all with 20 lines of imports at the top
18:27:16 <andythenorth> is there a better way?
18:27:24 <andythenorth> I could do the first 3 and worry about it later :P
18:28:05 <Alberth> why make a file for each type of industry?
18:28:21 <andythenorth> they're sufficiently complicated
18:28:34 <andythenorth> it won't be sane to try and do it with say .cfg files I think
18:28:49 <Alberth> I was thinking to put it all in one file
18:28:56 <andythenorth> it will be huge :)
18:29:08 <andythenorth> I could create an Industry Class and subclass it a lot :P
18:29:12 <andythenorth> but I fear spaghetti that way
18:29:19 <andythenorth> I'll just start coding, and then it can be figured out
18:29:41 <andythenorth> much easier to tell me what I've got wrong when I have actual code :P
18:32:43 <Alberth> except you have 40+ cases of wrong then ;)
18:41:30 <andythenorth> how do I do read() with codecs module
18:43:24 <Alberth> codecs.open?? let me see
18:44:28 <Alberth> handle = codecs.open(input_filename, 'r', 'utf-8')
18:44:43 <andythenorth> then call .read()
18:44:49 <andythenorth> I had a stupid path mistake :)
18:44:57 <Alberth> see also the nml source :p
18:44:58 <andythenorth> I will need some help to remove the dumb things :)
18:45:03 <Yexo> GenCase: in the spritelayout-block the "sprite" property can be set to a number in which case it refers to a baseset sprite
18:45:10 <andythenorth> but first I prove this works o_O
18:45:40 <Yexo> for vehicles there is some property to set to refer to an original vehicle's graphics
18:45:55 <Yexo> so how to do it depends on the exact feature you're working on
18:46:18 <andythenorth> ah, I can do this same as BANDIT, with some dispatcher thing wrapping simple .py files
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19:06:18 <andythenorth> let's see what devzone compiler does with FIRS now :P
19:09:30 <andythenorth> forgot to add files :P
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19:22:01 <Jensen1986> hi. Could somebody help my please?
19:24:19 <Jensen1986> hehe. This would not be the first place i've would ask. But can i use my org saved game from ttd in opentt
19:24:25 <FLHerne> Apparently it depends ;-)
19:25:36 <Jensen1986> Just found that page myself. and that was my problem that all my settetings in my saved game like more passengers pr car and amount of passenger/mail in buldings didn't transfer to openttd
19:26:05 <FLHerne> I don't think OTTD even has those settings :P
19:26:17 <FLHerne> We have newgrfs for that
19:26:27 <Jensen1986> and like i like to say... that sucks.
19:26:44 <Jensen1986> I love this game but dont wanna start all over in opentt
19:27:11 <GenCase> Don't worry, openttd gives you much more possibilities to cheat.
19:27:23 <FLHerne> Jensen1986: Are the things that break game-critical, or just annoyances?
19:28:06 <Jensen1986> There is noting to do but start all over.
19:28:45 <FLHerne> It *might* be safe to add a vehicle newgrf, which would allow passengers-per-car to be different
19:28:58 <FLHerne> Anyway, OTTD has loads of new features to play with :-)
19:29:10 <FLHerne> Might be worth starting over anyway ;-)
19:29:18 <Jensen1986> If you like this game how about capitalism 2?
19:29:51 <FLHerne> Dunno. Haven't played it :P
19:30:37 <Jensen1986> whaaat?? You gotta try it. Old game but still. Way more realistic than this one. But I confess that in the end I allways end up playing ttd
19:31:00 <FLHerne> Looks interesting. If I see a copy anywhere, I'll get it :-)
19:31:27 <FLHerne> There are some fairly realistic grfs for OTTD now though :P
19:31:43 <Jensen1986> Well im off starting all over in opentt thanks guys.
19:31:52 <Jensen1986> FIRS ? Whats that?
19:31:57 <FLHerne> Only adds 31 cargoes and several dozen industry types :P
19:32:19 <FLHerne> FIRS Industry Replacement Set, apparently ;-)
19:32:38 <Jensen1986> ok. Well im gonna try it not. See you
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19:48:57 <andythenorth> come back alberth :(
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21:48:19 <hmmwhatsthisdo> I have a Factory with two train stations connected to it. (One in, one out) - I forgot to set "unload and leave empty" on the inbound trains, and now my factory is putting goods in the inbound station as well as the outbound station. How can I fix it?
21:49:28 <hmmwhatsthisdo> I tried setting "unload and leave empty" on the inbound trains, but it's still hovering below 20% and putting goods in the inbound station
21:52:17 <Rubidium> the only way is removing the station completely
21:59:17 <hmmwhatsthisdo> ...and that would require me fixing all my trains, huh?
22:00:37 <FLHerne> hmmwhatsthisdo: As in, remove input station, make new one, tell your trains to go there instead
22:00:48 <hmmwhatsthisdo> yea, that's what I though
22:00:52 <FLHerne> If all your trains have shared orders, that's simple
22:01:01 <FLHerne> If they don't, they probably should :P
22:03:13 <hmmwhatsthisdo> it's just that I had it removed for maybe 2 days in-game and now my empty steel mill has 3500 units waiting
22:04:31 <FLHerne> hmmwhatsthisdo: Why? Just demolish it, put a new one on the same site, ctrl-clicking to stop it becoming the old one
22:04:37 <FLHerne> Or did I miss the problem?
22:04:56 <hmmwhatsthisdo> it just caused a little traffic jam is all
22:05:44 <FLHerne> Well, that happens :P
22:22:36 <hmmwhatsthisdo> If I have to use two bridges in tandem for train lines, am I doing something wrong?
22:24:11 <FLHerne> hmmwhatsthisdo: No, they're broken a bit :P
22:24:38 <FLHerne> There's a hacky patch to put signals on them, but it hasn't been trunked because of the 'hacky' part :P
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