IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-06
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07:30:31 <Rubidium> Alberth: hi, feels like "snertweer", right?
07:32:00 <Alberth> somewhat, although it is just a bit wet, but not raining much
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09:21:45 <DDR> General question: I have enjoyed playing OpenTTD and Maxis' SimCities. Can anyone recommend a new-ish game in the same vein, other than SimuTrans?
09:22:56 <Rubidium> (well, not really recommend as I never played it)
09:23:22 <Rubidium> nor do I know whether there's an actual release of it either
09:23:28 <Alberth> it will be a few years before that is finished, I think
09:23:38 <DDR> Looks like more or less what I want, but a bit *too* new.
09:23:44 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon?
09:24:03 <DDR> Played RailRoad Tycoon 2 Platinum into the ground.
09:24:21 <DDR> I actually was playing it just a month or two ago. :P
09:24:38 <Alberth> never played it though
09:25:14 <DDR> 6 years old, but I've never played it.
09:25:57 <DDR> In RRT2P, I actually found a song in the files I'd never heard before.
09:26:09 * Rubidium likes Caesar II/III and Pharaoh a lot as well
09:29:39 <DDR> And... ancient. :/ I was 8 when those came out, Caesar III at least.
09:30:21 <DDR> Thanks, Rubidium and andythenorth.
09:31:18 <andythenorth> DDR: railroad tycoon 3 is pretty addictive
09:32:11 <DDR> I've actually downloaded it, I'm just a bit nervous of starting it up... what if it ruins RRT2?
09:32:59 <andythenorth> it's a completely different gameplay
09:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried RRT2 for half an hour, and didn't quite see the point of it after playing RRT
09:37:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sure it has prettier graphics, but the gameplay took a turn for the worse and the UI was unintuitive/silly
09:37:57 <andythenorth> and it was...crashy
09:38:08 <_Terkhen> many games move in that direction lately :P
09:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i didn't get that far :p
09:38:28 <_Terkhen> "make it look nicer and dumb the whole thing down"
09:39:18 <andythenorth> more trains, more cargos, more industries
09:39:26 <andythenorth> option to build more things at stations
09:39:39 <andythenorth> definitely better, right?
09:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no "dispatcher operation"/signal towers
09:41:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: just like 32bpp? :)
09:41:44 <andythenorth> has map rotation!
09:41:48 <andythenorth> we definitely need that
09:42:49 <Markk> But I'm quite fine with the transparency option.
09:43:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: I have not asked zephyris about it, but if he modelled the backside too, the chances get a lot better
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09:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but for "3D graphics" the rotation is very limited
09:59:29 <andythenorth> iirc they're rasterised pixels
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10:28:35 <andythenorth> will there be a 32bpp FIRS?
10:29:00 <frosch123> will there be an extra zoom firs?
10:29:33 <frosch123> you know, extra zoom graphics are so huge that they are safe for small children
10:30:38 <frosch123> anyway, did anyone bother yet to draw extra zoom graphics without rendering?
10:30:53 <frosch123> i think there is nothing more boring that doing stuff 4 times
10:33:56 * frosch123 ponders shipping food
10:38:31 <frosch123> tram-ship-tram sounds nice, doesn't it?
10:38:56 <Industrial> Just hit the max on vehicles (500) the first time :-(
10:39:30 <frosch123> it's only for multiplayer issues
10:39:58 <Industrial> I can watch other people build :O? I'm not that good with rails :|
10:40:49 <frosch123> _Terkhen: building tram tracks is so much easier now :)
10:41:23 <Industrial> frosch123: I can't seem to join any game though. The button is greyed out.
10:41:50 <frosch123> you need to find a server which runs exactly the same version as you have
10:41:56 <frosch123> what version of ottd are you running?
10:42:39 <Industrial> 1.1.4 it seems (jeez slow downstream in ubuntu). I'll get the latest.
10:43:18 <frosch123> most servers run 1.2.2 :)
10:43:40 <_Terkhen> I have not played a test game but it felt more simpler in my tests
10:47:12 <frosch123> oh, looks like i build a wrong ship
10:47:26 <frosch123> why are ferries refittable to food? :s
10:49:01 <frosch123> i bought a paddle steamer because it was so fast and could carry 540 stuff
10:49:21 <frosch123> but turned out 540 meant pax, and only 112 food
10:54:28 <Zuu> _Terkhen: Indeed, that change with draging of road is very quick to become used to. When using 1.2 for whatever reason, it is easy to make silly mistakes. :-)
10:54:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: did they buy menu mention cargo capacity?
10:55:16 <frosch123> which i did not notice
10:55:28 <frosch123> since i assumed that no vehicle would refit between pax and cargo .)
10:56:10 <frosch123> now i use huge freighters instead
10:56:19 <frosch123> which are as big as the lake i made at the dock :)
10:56:28 <frosch123> i guess they are not exactly canal boats
10:57:02 <andythenorth> try building a dock on rivers or canals :P
10:57:34 <frosch123> my route is about 1/3 of each river, canal and sea
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11:21:59 <frosch123> hmm, are dump trucks appropiate for food?
11:24:01 <frosch123> oh, a tram just reversed where it should not reverse :o
11:24:57 <frosch123> they just reverse at the end of a downhill track
11:26:30 <andythenorth> try running them into the sea?
11:26:41 <andythenorth> dump trucks are appropriate for food :)
11:26:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: hey that's like the mockup we made :)
11:27:28 <Alberth> the left side doesn't look pretty to me at all
11:28:12 <frosch123> is that locomotion?
11:29:01 <andythenorth> the mockup I made is on devzone somewhere
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11:38:21 <Kylie> to canadians: happy thanksgiving weekend!
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11:45:54 <Kylie> andythenorth: why are ships so cheap
11:49:38 <Alberth> to be ablew to buy one in the start of the game, I think
11:57:00 <andythenorth> it's one way to reduce their total pointlessness
11:57:06 <andythenorth> there is very little point to ships
12:01:07 <andythenorth> openttd is a remarkably unbalanced game wrt different transport types
12:03:16 <andythenorth> compare something like Warcraft 1 where different kinds of units have very different roles in gameplay (peons, orcs, catapults) etc
12:04:05 <frosch123> he... trains, rv and ships are very useful in my current game
12:04:27 <frosch123> ships just only make sense if you have really lots of cargo
12:04:52 <frosch123> and rv only make sense on very short routes
12:05:07 <frosch123> you just play the wrong games :)
12:05:56 <frosch123> anyway, time to fund my fifth food plant
12:08:51 <Elukka> i think it's not a problem you can totally solve with the current economy
12:09:06 <Elukka> one obvious way to make ships useful would be to make rail bridges more expensive
12:09:12 <Elukka> but what does that matter when you have infinite money anyway?
12:09:41 <Alberth> Elukka: just make new land in the sea :p
12:09:47 <frosch123> rail bridges longer than 20 tiles are not really efficient :p
12:10:12 <Alberth> frosch123: depends on how many you have :p
12:10:20 <andythenorth> original TTD was a lot more balanced
12:10:22 <frosch123> anyway, preventing all kind of cheats is not exactly a good goal
12:10:37 <andythenorth> - ships were useless, RVs were useless, planes were too expensive and crashed a lot
12:10:39 <frosch123> just let the cheaters not have fun :p
12:10:54 <andythenorth> - signals were useless, and you could only fill so much map with "1 line per train"
12:11:08 <andythenorth> we fixed trains with PBS and all the other crap :P
12:11:32 <andythenorth> trains are now super-awesome and will win on every route
12:11:40 <Alberth> I played a lot with signals, they sort of work with simple RORO setups
12:11:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: you try to make all vehicles the same, which will turn ottd in totally boredom
12:12:33 <frosch123> it's not the point of ships and rv to be used for the same purpose as trains
12:12:57 <frosch123> rv are for short distances which just fail for trains because of space and loading times
12:13:23 <frosch123> ships are for lots of cargos which would need 10 tracks in parallel for a single point to point connection
12:13:48 <frosch123> try to transport 10k of food with trains
12:13:51 <andythenorth> I am overly influenced by recent GS games :P
12:14:00 <andythenorth> we had 10 or 12 tracks in parallel
12:14:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am just now playing a gs
12:14:09 <frosch123> but a long term gs, no 5 year short game
12:14:33 <frosch123> if the maximum amount of cargo you have is 1k in 3 months, yeah, ships are pretty pointless
12:14:38 <andythenorth> if 10-12 track maglev is optimum for a 5 year GS, why isn't it also optimum for 25 years?
12:15:15 <frosch123> if you want to make ships compete with maglev
12:15:24 <frosch123> well, then you need hydrofoil cargoships
12:15:34 <frosch123> which carry 1k cargo and go 70 km/h
12:15:46 <frosch123> or just play without maglev
12:15:50 <frosch123> maglev is only for pax
12:16:04 <frosch123> and ships are pointless for pax in general, except if you want to play golf
12:16:15 <frosch123> but who cares about pax?
12:16:25 <Alberth> disable cargoes for maglev?
12:16:44 <frosch123> i think i always played like that :)
12:16:57 <frosch123> though argueable i tend to play more 1920-1970
12:17:01 <Alberth> I mostly never reach maglev stage :)
12:28:48 <andythenorth> it's a shame that it's not possible to provide a cost baseline that would level grfs
12:28:59 <andythenorth> cost per unit hp-ton-speed
12:29:07 <Elukka> rail and road vehicles are balanced with better road vehicles and higher running costs for trains
12:29:17 <Elukka> which makes trains unfeasible for particularly short or low capacity routes
12:29:37 <Elukka> in vanilla and many grfs though it's pretty much better to just go with trains
12:30:01 <andythenorth> so all the MP games I played recently, trains were absolutely dominant
12:30:51 <frosch123> that is quite subjective
12:31:07 <frosch123> in the mp games i played with you, trams were equally often used
12:31:21 <frosch123> and in the supplies game, there were tons of aircraft
12:31:30 <andythenorth> the return on buying a train was much larger than on other types though
12:31:34 <frosch123> for ships we did not have enough industry output
12:31:46 <andythenorth> most of those games, a train would repay purchase cost in ~3 months
12:32:01 <frosch123> the game is about transporting stuff efficiently
12:32:05 <frosch123> and not about making money
12:32:34 <frosch123> else you can build the money maker at the start and be finished
12:33:01 <frosch123> the point of the gs was to force a maximum tranport percentage of cargo
12:33:16 <frosch123> not to force you to make the most money with the fewest vehicles
12:34:34 <frosch123> games with the goal of making money only work if there is a lot of micro management
12:34:42 <frosch123> else the income always grows exponential
12:35:05 <frosch123> and since ottd is luckily not about micro management, the money goal is completely useless
12:35:48 <andythenorth> ok, so...for those GS ships don't fit
12:36:04 <andythenorth> so what would be an interesting variation?
12:36:20 <frosch123> currently i am playing a 30 years sv game, with 10k goal
12:36:23 <andythenorth> other than the obvious like "build 500 ships" :P
12:36:34 <frosch123> i have to transport them accross half the map, because there are only 2 food shops
12:36:43 <frosch123> that's only feasible to do with ships
12:36:58 <frosch123> ofc i could spoil the game and just fund a food shop in my home town
12:37:06 <frosch123> but well, that would be stupid and make the game boring
12:37:24 <frosch123> planes? i hope you do not mean for the food?
12:38:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: add two new parameters to firs
12:38:30 <frosch123> multiplier for primary and secondary cargo production
12:38:55 <frosch123> if industries produce a lot more, ships become a lot more feasible
12:39:22 <frosch123> if they produce a lot less, rv become more feasible :p
12:39:42 <frosch123> but likely the roads will bankrupt you
12:39:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: I want to do that differently
12:40:07 <andythenorth> we should have a thing called NoConomy
12:40:19 <andythenorth> and it should offer player / GS more control over prod_level
12:41:19 <andythenorth> FIRS primaries would then use prod_level in their output calc (they currently don't(
12:42:07 <andythenorth> but they wouldn't set or modify prod_level, allowing player / openttd / GS to do it
13:24:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: in the absence of NoConomy, a FIRS parameter to set production would be trivial
13:24:35 <andythenorth> but I think it's stinky :P
13:37:13 <frosch123> trams need an unstuck button
13:37:17 <frosch123> to ignore other vehicles
13:38:19 <andythenorth> or when they reach the end of a tile with no loop back
13:38:49 <frosch123> but if trams are stuck in a circle
13:38:55 <frosch123> its annoying to wait for the timeout
13:38:56 <andythenorth> then they're very stuck :)
13:39:02 <frosch123> until you can redesign the track
13:39:05 <andythenorth> I have had that with loops + depots :)
13:39:44 <frosch123> i feel i have to abandon the tram usage
13:39:49 <frosch123> and instead drive ships uphill
13:43:58 <andythenorth> canal switchback for ships?
13:44:06 <andythenorth> we need boat lifts :P
13:44:24 <frosch123> mind that i don't want to stationwalk those 15 tiles :p
13:53:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: you only have to go up 3 levels :P
13:53:07 <andythenorth> I do that kind of thing all the time :P
13:53:39 <frosch123> i think i should try to not use any tram sections
13:53:50 <frosch123> and balance them to use the stops bidirectional
13:54:05 <frosch123> unfortunately there are neither tram signals
13:54:08 <andythenorth> long trams block very easily
13:54:10 <frosch123> nor tram oneway tracks
13:57:40 <andythenorth> I could implement them as trains :P
13:57:51 <andythenorth> defeats the point?
13:59:43 <frosch123> yeah, no dual track on single tile
14:01:49 <Alberth> such a nice and quiet town, and then a big tram network right next to it :)
14:02:28 <frosch123> well, they eat so much
14:06:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: no trucks?
14:06:46 <andythenorth> also which FISH version?
14:07:48 <frosch123> i think i started the game two weeks ago
14:08:02 <frosch123> no trucks available for some reason
14:08:07 <frosch123> only the small ogfx ones
14:08:25 <frosch123> or i disabled them :p
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17:30:01 <Matulla> hi all Question are the citisens numbers and down in some cases ?
17:30:31 <Matulla> im shure i had 680 but now after road building i got 560
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17:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> buildings can close down or be rebuilt into different buldings
17:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> then that building's population is removed from the town population
17:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it will be increased again when the bulding is finished
17:38:30 <TyrHeimdal> Is there a way to close an airport so that planes don't land? Useful whn upgrading airports.
17:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there is an old patch
17:42:31 <andythenorth> it's in nightly no?
17:42:46 <andythenorth> yeah, in nightlies
17:43:08 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is not dying" tm
17:43:21 <andythenorth> small stuff keeps turning up in nightlies :)
17:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i missed a bit in the last months
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19:21:37 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS snow sprites will be finished soon :P
19:21:50 <andythenorth> 5 or 6 industries left to draw snow for :|
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22:01:46 <Cyberworm> hi I'm trying to cross-compile version 1.2.2 and I encountered some problems with squirrel
23:19:04 <Yexo> Cyberworm: what problems did you encounter?
23:19:11 <Yexo> if you aren't more specific, we can't help you
23:23:47 <Cyberworm> when compiling sqbaselib.cpp I get error messages of that kind:
23:24:00 <Cyberworm> arm-none-linux-gnueabi/include/c++/4.6.1/cmath:975:11: error: '::acoshl' has not been declared
23:24:30 <Cyberworm> they are several messages like this
23:24:36 <Cyberworm> with different missing declarations
23:26:41 <glx> that should be provided by the compiler
23:31:23 <Cyberworm> glx: what do you mean?
23:32:49 <glx> cmath is a c++ include provided by the compiler
23:35:11 <Cyberworm> is that provided automatically?
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