IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-01
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00:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i have seen code that prevents "conflicting" industries nearby
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01:27:44 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Is it possible to link airports?
01:27:58 <hmmwhatsthisdo> (e.g. through control-click or putting them next to one another)
01:46:09 <Supercheese> yeah, would be nice, but not possible; same goes for docks
01:46:50 <hmmwhatsthisdo> yea... I currently have an intercontinental airport with planes flying in a holding pattern for... "weeks"
01:47:06 <Supercheese> International airport is technically more efficient than Intercontinental
01:47:08 <Supercheese> as strange as it sounds
01:47:21 <Supercheese> lemme dig up the proof
01:47:24 <planetmaker> I see the need for ports - for eye candy reasons. But for airports...? SC is right, yes
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02:41:59 <hmmwhatsthisdo> I'm finding a lot of stuff about modular airports, but all of it seems to be 3-4 years old. Did something happen with OpenTTD that stopped development of it all?
02:42:11 <Supercheese> I think development is just paused
02:42:56 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Is anyone even bothering with development anymore?
02:43:04 <Supercheese> with that specifically?
02:43:07 <Supercheese> in general? of course
02:46:09 <planetmaker> hmmwhatsthisdo, modular airports is a tricky issue with implications in many places. Especially the specs need to become sane...
02:46:35 <planetmaker> and sane specs for airports need still quite a bit of behind-the-scenes changes.
02:46:46 <planetmaker> It's not forgotten, not reject, but not yet done either
02:47:00 <hmmwhatsthisdo> yea, I read something about the system that would be needed to interact with the state machine (I'm guessing that's analogous to the Air Traffic Controller) would be diabolically hard
02:47:08 <planetmaker> and for what it's worth: it's a wanted feature
02:47:41 <planetmaker> well... kinda. airports have fixed movement patterns for how vehicles can move in them
02:48:13 <hmmwhatsthisdo> and the state machine makes those?
02:48:20 <planetmaker> or call it rules instead of pattern, if you want
02:48:27 <planetmaker> that *is* the state machine
02:49:20 <planetmaker> but the problem with that kind of airports is even more fundamental... they need access to more scopes than currently are available; they can't interact with that many related objects as they need to
02:50:19 <hmmwhatsthisdo> so, in essence it would require way more work than it might seem?
02:50:51 <planetmaker> in essence: yes. Not would. But does. At least for a nice solution ;-)
02:52:29 <planetmaker> But still... we *will* get this nice solution. But not this year
02:53:40 <planetmaker> we're still missing colums 3,4 and 5 ;-)
02:54:18 <planetmaker> (yes, very technical, I know)
02:54:30 <hmmwhatsthisdo> yea... it's a little bit difficult to read
02:55:41 <planetmaker> it's intended as memo to devs of what makes sense / is wanted and needed...
02:57:31 <planetmaker> in any case... airports likely won't get modular by this. They just will be possibly defined via NewGRF. Thus many different ones become possible
02:58:05 <planetmaker> in the same way like you now can define industries, houses or vehicles via newgrf
02:58:10 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Wasn't there a feature in RCT2 that allowed people to prefab rollercoasters then use them in-game?
02:58:43 <planetmaker> I don't know. Nor does it really matter ;-)
02:59:49 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Well, maybe instead of having truly modular airports that are built on-the-fly, there should be a method to prefab airports, have all the complicated stuff done beforehand, then save and use them in-game
03:00:17 <Supercheese> that's essentially what NewAirport grfs would do
03:00:31 <planetmaker> The method to come is to allow add-on authors define their own airports
03:00:47 <planetmaker> ingame by the players... not so likely
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04:43:03 <Supercheese> was working a thermodynamics problem
04:43:31 <Supercheese> involving geothermal power plants; flash evaporator pressures vs. turbine power outputs
04:56:02 <supermop> sounds like a good use of time
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09:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a way to insert an action 0C in nml?
10:15:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that option doesn't exist. Also it will be very hard to do as you cannot define a place really
10:16:31 <planetmaker> nml ordering need not refer to nml ordering except the things which absolutely need be in order
10:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt it would really be hard
10:17:14 <planetmaker> not hard to add. but difficult to decide what it should refer to.
10:17:48 <planetmaker> i.e. it will be hard to do it in a way that produces the results which you might expect
10:18:01 <planetmaker> (and why do you need action 0x0C?
10:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well let's call it "debugging symbols"
10:18:53 <planetmaker> care to elaborate?
10:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, the idea was that i take each vehicle gnml and individually compile it to nfo/grf, then throw out everything to a "this is where headers end" marker, and combine that to a complete grf
10:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid shoving the entire nml into nmlc, which it kinda barfs on
10:21:28 <planetmaker> I see. Shouldn't it rather be fixed to not barf on the entire NML? what happens if you comment in (or out) single vehicle files?
10:21:42 <planetmaker> (I know you want to use it to fix the entire thing)
10:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the sheer size of the parse tree that currently makes it close to unhandle-able
10:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> python is not very memory efficient
10:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you could probably reduce it by factor 100-ish by implementing it in C++
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11:26:31 <Pinkbeast> Dear Railworks / Train Simulator 2013, why why is getting the HUD right for steam engines so hard?
11:35:20 <dada_> anyone know if there's a way to remove/delete companies from a single player savegame? console tells me that those commands are only available in a network game.
11:35:49 <Pinkbeast> Would it suffice to take them over with the cheat commands and bankrupt them?
11:35:57 <dada_> I guess I could do that.
11:36:52 <dada_> hm, this one has 200 million euros
11:37:13 <Pinkbeast> Nope; raise and lower land in and out of the sea. You can chew up any amount of cash quickly.
11:37:45 <Pinkbeast> ... ISTR, no promises, that demolishing sea into land which then floods is also an efficient way to waste money.
11:38:52 <dada_> if you have money to burn that might be a nice way to bully your opponent's ships
11:40:36 <Pinkbeast> If you're going in for thank kind of cheese, stompifying his RVs is a lot less hassle. :-)
11:43:32 <planetmaker> good that there are even AI which detect that kind of sabotage ;-)
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11:47:04 <dada_> ok, maximum loan, no income, no funds. guess it's just a matter of waiting now.
11:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> dada_: there are two ways. if it's an AI company, use the stop_ai command, if it's a human company, save the game, start a multiplayer game (without anyone else joining) and use the multiplayer-only commands.
11:53:57 <dada_> I just got asked if I want to take over the company, so I guess I'm making progress (said no)
11:54:12 <dada_> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I've gone the hackish way of bankrupting them instead
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15:08:44 <andythenorth> autorefit on vehicles in a grf: "essential" or "nice to have" or "meh" ?
15:09:32 <Pinkbeast> ... in practice I find autorefit tricky to make use of.
15:09:49 <Pinkbeast> I might even incline to meh
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15:19:20 <andythenorth> your views count!
15:19:28 <andythenorth> people died for your right to vote!
15:22:46 <supermop> it's really hard to motivate myself to draw anything again
15:23:26 <supermop> yet when i try to play ottd about twice a year, i am too unsatisfied that the things i want in my game are not there
15:23:30 <andythenorth> draw some blooody ships :P
15:23:43 <supermop> so i think i am drifting away from the game as a result
15:23:52 <andythenorth> no game lasts for ever
15:24:07 <andythenorth> played any GS games?
15:24:32 <andythenorth> total saviour of the game for me
15:24:49 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd have had to do the big flouncy "I'm leaving" thing
15:25:54 <supermop> saw a building in chinatown last night that would both be easy to draw and look good in game
15:26:25 <supermop> and match the general style of other buildings I have drawn
15:26:38 <andythenorth> with challenge GS all the 'game needs xyz' stuff disappears :)
15:26:49 <andythenorth> you're too focussed on meeting the goal to look at graphics ;)
15:27:04 <supermop> i like looking at little buildings
15:27:15 <supermop> i see the game as a metabolism simulator
15:27:31 <Pinkbeast> I realised I'd be vexed if it broke HEQS tram refitting, so I think there's no denying I'm "meh" about it.
15:28:15 <supermop> about a year ago i was so pumped at planning out how to build the capsule tower in legos
15:28:27 <supermop> then i saw someone had already done it
15:29:30 <supermop> then whenever i start thinking about making toy buildings
15:29:46 <supermop> i remember i am an architect in a career rut
15:29:58 <supermop> and i should do something about that instead
15:30:59 <supermop> or i get side tracked by other hobbies like food coffee or records
15:31:27 <andythenorth> I wanted to be an architect
15:31:30 <andythenorth> then I didn't :)
15:31:41 <supermop> most of us are out of work
15:31:56 <supermop> and at least in the us woefully underpaid
15:32:05 <andythenorth> I got really into Calatrava's stuff for a bit
15:32:17 <supermop> he's actually a civil engineer
15:32:48 <andythenorth> well he did both degrees
15:32:52 <andythenorth> I was studying C Eng.
15:32:57 <andythenorth> but that sucked so I stopped
15:33:14 <andythenorth> I was going to do C. Eng then architecture degrees
15:33:26 <andythenorth> but that would have been 8 years + 4 years to get chartered
15:33:34 <andythenorth> education is over-rated :p
15:34:30 <supermop> i'd stay in school forever if i could afford it
15:34:57 <supermop> speaking of getting sidetracked,
15:34:58 <Jake> University education certainly is, though, at least when it comes to finding a job.
15:35:03 <supermop> are you good with plants?
15:35:27 <supermop> i need to repot my jade
15:35:49 <supermop> living in chinatown there is no dirt on the ground so i have to go buy some
15:37:10 <Jake> I'm sure the Parks & Rec department wouldn't mind you borrowing some if you'd rather not find a garden centre.
15:51:33 <FLHerne> Heightmaps don't do rivers, do they?
15:55:34 <Elukka> that'd make them a million times easier to do
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15:59:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, don't you think you should ask your autorefit question in general openttd?
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16:11:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: maybe
16:11:10 <andythenorth> I thought it was newgrf specific
16:11:14 <andythenorth> feel free to move it
16:11:36 <planetmaker> there are arguments for either forum. Your choice. I just wonder
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16:20:42 <andythenorth> 'meh' is winning for autorefit so far
16:20:45 <andythenorth> small sample size though
16:21:07 <planetmaker> that's why I was asking: exposure is small in that subforum compared to general
16:21:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: move the post ;)
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16:23:40 <andythenorth> I do wonder if autorefit is over-rated for gameplay
16:23:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, done.
16:23:52 <andythenorth> especially, we have no partial load orders etc
16:24:07 <andythenorth> and the cases where there is a useful backload may be limited
16:24:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, autorefit available will load different cargos concurrently
16:24:20 <andythenorth> I have only used it a bit with UKRS 2
16:24:30 <planetmaker> which is helpful in some stations
16:24:40 <andythenorth> autorefit + YACD would have been significantly awesome
16:24:53 <andythenorth> different cargos concurrently is no use for ships or RVs or planes though ;)
16:25:19 <planetmaker> but still, like "load available" will take the most common cargo which can be good
16:25:26 <planetmaker> and ensure good rating for all of them
16:26:26 <andythenorth> would be more useful if ships had n holds :)
16:26:43 <planetmaker> would make sense from that perspective, yes.
16:27:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: autorefit is far more suitable for trains
16:27:53 <frosch123> not so much for other vehicles
16:28:13 <frosch123> ah, andy said that already
16:28:21 <planetmaker> And I fully agree
16:28:53 <frosch123> though it should also work for small rv
16:29:03 <frosch123> i.e. when you have many of them
16:29:12 <planetmaker> well, it does, doesn't it?
16:29:35 <frosch123> in the only usecase i had for autorefit, i played nuts, and was not allowed to :p
16:29:52 <andythenorth> it's odd though, to have it for small rv, but not large :P
16:30:11 <frosch123> well, large rv are specialised
16:30:15 <frosch123> sell it as game balance
16:30:20 <frosch123> either big cheap stuff
16:30:48 <frosch123> might give small vehicles some use :)
16:32:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Autorefit is awesome :D
16:33:17 <FLHerne> Now I can transport every mineral cargo in FIRS on one set of trains :p
16:37:03 <Nat_aS> I don't care as much about auto-refit, as the ability to mix cargos
16:37:09 <Nat_aS> esp on cargo planes to remote islands with farms
16:37:23 <Nat_aS> two planes won't make a profit, but there are two types of cargo
16:37:38 <Nat_aS> one plane would make a profit if it could hold both cargos
16:37:48 <Nat_aS> and then transport a mixture of food and goods back to the island.
16:38:14 <FLHerne> Nat_aS: Multi-cargo things without autorefit don't work properly :P
16:38:46 <Nat_aS> well that's why I want auto-refit then
16:39:09 <Nat_aS> because airplanes have really tight cargo margins, that are suposed to be made up for by there superior flexibility
16:39:35 <Nat_aS> but they are less flexible because a train can cary more than one cargo, and a plane can't
16:39:45 <FLHerne> Well, they work but they never balance properly. So all you get is full load of one thing, and lots of space on the other side :-(
16:39:51 <FLHerne> 'planes can carry mail :P
16:40:09 <Nat_aS> adding empty cars to a train does little to reduce efficancy
16:40:28 <Nat_aS> so if you have long stations you can make a train that's half full both ways, but carrying two kinds of cargo
16:40:38 <Nat_aS> it's less of a problem than airplanes.
16:40:48 <FLHerne> Same happens for planes though. And that *is* inefficient :P
16:41:16 <FLHerne> Why would you make one train for two cargos? Why not just two separate ones of half the length?
16:41:21 <Nat_aS> less inefficant than having to buy a second airplane just to carry grain AND livestock
16:41:35 <Nat_aS> I really like the C130 in AV8 though
16:41:44 <Nat_aS> it's perfect for diamonds
16:42:50 * FLHerne hasn't tried airfreight much :P
16:52:07 <NGC3982> I so want to build a NewGRF with warpdrive
17:05:17 * FLHerne complains about error priority
17:06:41 <FLHerne> If I try to play a scenario containing no towns, it complains about GUI sprites (nightly) instead of mentioning the actually-serious issue
17:11:59 <planetmaker> FLHerne, as the missing gui sprites will be an issue in every game (update your opengfx)
17:13:00 <FLHerne> planetmaker: I have :P
17:13:20 <FLHerne> But a few missing gui sprites don't stop me playing :P
17:14:13 <planetmaker> FLHerne, the current bananas release of opengfx gives you that?!
17:15:44 <FLHerne> Also, how come rivers can be overbuilt with canals, but not the opposite?
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17:26:21 <frosch123> open the bottle before trying to drink
17:26:25 <frosch123> that's how it works
17:31:07 <andythenorth> can you start a newsletter about that?
17:31:52 <andythenorth> so I await poll results
17:32:00 <andythenorth> but I would bet that autorefit is 'meh'
17:32:10 <frosch123> you mean something like a list of nak codes your mouth can send, and what they mean?
17:32:10 <andythenorth> and that will make BANDIT / HEQS so much easier
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17:34:36 <andythenorth> child fell over in the bath :P
17:34:44 <andythenorth> every time I mix irc and bathtime, something bad happens :P
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17:38:30 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get a waterproof tablet :P
17:40:19 <andythenorth> bad for the child
17:40:24 <andythenorth> laptop, don't care about :P
17:40:52 <FLHerne> Keyboards are hard to make waterproof ;-)
17:42:19 <andythenorth> would that improve gameplay?
17:42:29 <andythenorth> or is it lots more tedious clicking?
17:44:09 <frosch123> so...tile based airports
17:44:14 <frosch123> would that improve gameplay?
17:44:19 <frosch123> or is it lots more tedious clicking?
17:45:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The former yes, dunno about the latter
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24563 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt welsh.txt) (2012-10-01 17:45:14 UTC)
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 8 changes by RunisLabs
17:45:25 <DorpsGek> welsh - 13 changes by kazzie
17:45:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: my or was OR not XOR
17:45:41 <FLHerne> I'd prefer the current airport system, but with newgrf-definable ones :P
17:46:15 <FLHerne> RV-wagons would be very good for trams :-)
17:46:36 <andythenorth> trams should just be a railtype
17:46:56 * andythenorth thinks everything should be a railtype
17:47:00 <andythenorth> it's a train game anyway
17:47:14 <andythenorth> if we remove the other types, that will improve performance right?
17:47:25 <andythenorth> and developers can spend time on codes for trains
17:47:28 <andythenorth> more effficient :P
17:47:43 <frosch123> i thought everything was a cargo :p
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17:48:50 <andythenorth> I thought you were working on that in a branch?
17:50:01 <andythenorth> using tile based airports, can I create 'roads' ?
17:50:11 <andythenorth> and a 'truck' that flies at 0 feet
18:00:53 <frosch123> but they cannot have trailers
18:01:05 <andythenorth> can't I abuse the shadow?
18:16:14 <frosch123> hmm, someone knows whether the inflation is reset when starting a scenario?
18:24:12 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2147483648
18:53:57 <BadBrett> i'm beginning to hate FIRS... everytime i come up with a new idea, it's already there :p
18:54:42 <BadBrett> at least i have 2-3 exclusive industries :p
18:54:59 <andythenorth> FIRS is just a copy of Railroad Tycoon
18:55:54 <BadBrett> well... that explains a lot... because i use RRT as inspiration as well
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19:12:17 <andythenorth> so what does autorefit do with subtypes?
19:12:26 <andythenorth> preserve current?
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19:18:48 <andythenorth> I guess the code knows :P
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19:21:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: New crazy idea? :P
19:22:01 <FLHerne> Just got back, the extractor fan was shorting everything out :-(
19:29:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24564 /trunk/src (economy.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp) (2012-10-01 19:29:31 UTC)
19:29:39 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5312] (r17433): Limiting the inflation did not quite work.
19:32:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24565 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-01 19:31:55 UTC)
19:32:02 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Stop both price and payment inflation if either of them has reached MAX_INFLATION.
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19:33:34 <Kitty> I wish there was a way to merge two stations...
19:33:52 <frosch123> upon construction or later?
19:38:14 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24566 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2012-10-01 19:38:08 UTC)
19:38:15 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Reorder some code more intuitively. (Juanjo)
19:39:03 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24567 trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp (2012-10-01 19:38:57 UTC)
19:39:04 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5261]: Non-train vehicle lists were not resorted when vehicles were renamed. (Juanjo)
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19:40:17 <andythenorth> where is autorefit in src?
19:42:25 <andythenorth> some stuff there yes
19:43:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24568 trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp (2012-10-01 19:43:10 UTC)
19:43:17 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: No need to resort the group GUI when toggling the autoreplace protection. (Juanjo)
19:43:27 <andythenorth> if I read it correctly, autorefit does try to use the subtype specified in orders
19:46:39 <andythenorth> could the station refit menu gain a new cb?
19:46:44 <frosch123> subtype in orders makes no sense
19:47:04 <frosch123> is broken, and probably needs removal for fs#3764
19:47:18 <frosch123> it only stores the numerical subtype index
19:47:28 <frosch123> which can mean totally different things for different vehicles
19:48:22 <frosch123> so it kind of only works for non-trains and when all vehicles are of the same engine
19:49:06 <frosch123> for fs#3764 i would anticipate that the subtype is dropped from the refit-order gui
19:49:19 <frosch123> and every vehicle tries to refit to the cargo while keeping the subtype
19:50:28 <frosch123> really setting a subtype in the refit order gui, would need some method to store the text it addresses in some way
19:50:32 <frosch123> i have not found such a way :p
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19:50:51 <andythenorth> how about this idea?
19:50:55 <andythenorth> "subtypes are broken" :P
19:52:05 <andythenorth> therefore rm them
19:52:34 * andythenorth is probably being too extreme, again
19:56:25 <andythenorth> we haven't pissed off enough newgrf authors recently
19:56:35 <andythenorth> they have it too easy, what with this new fangled nml thing and such
19:56:44 <frosch123> did you manage to get banned from simuscape? :p
19:56:58 <andythenorth> I am happy with simuscape
19:57:12 <frosch123> ah, i thought you tried to piss them off, and was banned
19:57:14 <andythenorth> they're happy, we're happy, everyone's happy
19:57:32 <andythenorth> I thought better about being an idiot :P
19:57:49 <andythenorth> and there were apologies all round too
20:08:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: we should Overton Window the newgrf spec ;)
20:09:08 <andythenorth> we propose a totally unacceptable change to newgrf spec
20:09:22 <andythenorth> newgrf authors then declare sky is falling
20:09:33 <andythenorth> then we announce we only change a small section of spec
20:09:43 <andythenorth> newgrf authors have small celebration party
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20:11:30 <frosch123> aren't we more used to the door-in-the-face technique? which is linked from that page :p
20:13:17 <andythenorth> I have tried door-in-the-face on ottd devs, doesn't bloody work :P
20:13:22 <andythenorth> door goes in my face :)
20:14:00 <frosch123> yeah, you have to know the articulations
20:15:47 <Knogle> hm, whats 'industry_platform = 1' in openttd.cfg, its not mention in the wiki
20:16:05 <frosch123> i would guess it is about terraforming
20:16:17 <frosch123> when a industry is build it sometimes tries to level some land
20:16:43 <frosch123> maybe it levels industry_platform moretiles to make it look less weird
20:23:23 <supermop> haha "foot in the face" method
20:23:45 * andythenorth uses "foot in mouth" method too often :P
20:24:12 <frosch123> i try to get food in mouth every day
20:24:33 <andythenorth> better than feet
20:25:37 <frosch123> likely more legs than feet, not sure about the anatomy
20:26:43 <supermop> i can get either here in chinatown
20:26:54 <dada_> you can eat the chicken's feet too
20:27:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: I dare you to remove subtypes ;)
20:27:56 <andythenorth> see what happens
20:28:25 <andythenorth> it's probably wise that andythenorth has no openttd commit rights
20:28:53 <frosch123> yeah, it already scared me that you got voice :p
20:29:29 <frosch123> i expected you would be able to flood #openttd, dev and devzone :)
20:30:55 <frosch123> i don't get the foot-in-face method
20:32:18 <frosch123> they say foot in face causes less harm than door in face though :)
20:32:55 <andythenorth> I don't want to test that :P
20:33:47 <frosch123> are there any rumours about the world ending when the 113th element spawns?
20:34:16 <andythenorth> there are rumours about world ending for so many things :P
20:34:24 <andythenorth> individually each one makes me quite worried
20:34:37 <andythenorth> taken together, worrying seems quite silly :P
20:34:51 <supermop> world ends when nml supports bridges
20:35:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: it would have the advantage that we no longer have to care about subtypes
20:35:36 <andythenorth> and all tickets would be closed by default
20:35:44 <andythenorth> or at least "won't fix"
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