IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-09-16
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02:07:22 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
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02:31:10 <Kylie> i forgot k/b shortcut to makee buildings untransparent
03:14:32 <Simonn> man fellow openttd friends
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06:55:58 <Supercheese> You mean a mouse with a left/right scroll?
06:56:54 <Supercheese> I think anyhow, unless I'm terrible mistaken
06:57:01 <planetmaker> but do you have osx?
06:57:05 <Supercheese> I mean, mine does left/right scroll
06:57:09 <Supercheese> ah, that I do ont
06:57:25 <planetmaker> it needs an osx tester ;-)
06:57:44 <Supercheese> I can be of no help in that department :|
06:57:51 <__ln__> planetmaker: actually i do happen to have one, though it's not connected to a mac.
06:58:34 <planetmaker> might be feasible for testing purposes?
07:00:00 <__ln__> yes... but is it supposed to be any different than horizontal scrolling with a touchpad of a macbook/ibook?
07:00:22 <planetmaker> probably shouldn't
07:01:11 <planetmaker> I wonder whether I can hack-install an osx in a VM
07:01:40 <Supercheese> probably end up breaking your computer :)
07:02:24 <planetmaker> took me a few days to get everything setup... so I guess I know some more depths of what can go wrong than before ;-)
07:02:34 <__ln__> isn't that issue about implementing horizontal scrolling for platforms other than OS X?
07:02:59 <Supercheese> SAC drew some neat windsurfers in screenshots
07:03:16 <planetmaker> she drew a lot of neat stuff. Never released anything
07:03:48 <Supercheese> they look good enough to try and code as eyecandy vehicles, but I'll never get permission for sprites
07:03:50 <Supercheese> I already have most of her eyecandy buildings for personal use
07:03:52 <planetmaker> Several, including myself, have offered her help coding. To no avail
07:03:56 <Supercheese> can't distribute of course
07:04:30 <planetmaker> __ln__, that issue lists osx explicitly as target platform...?
07:05:11 <planetmaker> ah... no, you're right. I didn'th ave enough coffee
07:05:19 <planetmaker> looking at too many issues at once :D
07:05:33 <planetmaker> trallalalalala :-)
07:06:05 <planetmaker> instead of investing into a card reader (as suggested to "work around" my camera not being properly detected on debian), I rather buy such mouse :-)
07:07:05 <Supercheese> I recommend logitech G500 or comparable
07:07:05 <Supercheese> but of course personal preference can vary wildly
07:07:05 <__ln__> mine is Logitech RX250 and it costs ~10€
07:07:05 <__ln__> and it's a good mouse imho
07:07:30 * planetmaker has a logitec bj58. or whatever
07:07:45 <planetmaker> this mouse is not available anymore, I guess; it's ancient :D
07:08:10 <Supercheese> Logitech tends to put out new versions of stuff so fast, and then old versions aren't available any more
07:08:11 <planetmaker> I wonder... whether I get the apple mighty mouse via bluetooth to work on this machine... hm
07:08:23 <Supercheese> which is a shame, because IMNSHO the Logitech G15 is the best keyboard ever made
07:08:29 <Supercheese> and it's no longer available
07:08:42 <planetmaker> Supercheese, this mouse is > 5 years old ;-) I used it on my previous desktop. Which I shelved like 4 years ago ;-)
07:09:07 <planetmaker> was like a AMD K6 processor. So similar age
07:09:16 <Supercheese> my keyboard is at least 5 years old, and I'll use it until it breaks irreparably
07:09:50 <planetmaker> keyboard is the same age. And probably they might even have been bundled then. Dunno anymore
07:09:50 <planetmaker> But both work like a charm really
07:09:55 <Supercheese> Looks like mine, except mine's American not German
07:11:34 <Supercheese> The newer versions aren't nearly as good as the original version, sadly
07:11:39 <__ln__> the horizontal scroll feature seems to be quite rare on non-apple mice
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07:17:00 <Supercheese> well, I best sign off
07:17:09 <Supercheese> have to be awake again in 7 hours
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09:53:46 <Alberth> Zuu_: could you have a look at the PM for FS#5203 ?
09:55:06 <Zuu_> Ill have a look at fs#5203 soon.
09:55:34 <Zuu_> Pm as in pm on irc ir forums?
09:58:45 <Alberth> pm as a re-open request for the task
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10:20:27 <Zuu_> I've read it now and will taka deeper look later when I have my development environment.
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12:45:51 <Simonn> is there a way to put in all vehicles in a hangar
12:45:54 <Simonn> in the same group of vehicles?
12:48:00 <Alberth> if there is, it should be in the group window
12:48:41 <FLHerne> Simonn: Do you mean send all vehicles in the same group to a hangar, or put all vehicles in a hangar into one group?
12:48:55 <Simonn> I have a bunch of buses in a hangar
12:49:02 <Simonn> they are all withut a group
12:49:08 <Simonn> can I set them off into the same group by the push a button?
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12:51:23 <Yexo> (hangar is for aircraft only, for busses/trains it's called a depot)
12:53:29 <Simonn> how can a big tycoon like me be bothered by grouping these things
12:53:32 <Simonn> I should have staff for this
12:53:55 <Alberth> so don't group them, just let them run free :)
12:54:29 <Zuu__> That's when you write an AI to play for you :-)
12:55:22 <Simonn> when you own such a big company like mine that is not an option Alberth
12:55:25 <Simonn> shareholders demand statistics
12:55:49 <Simonn> I mean you might be able to run your single coal-hauling train on your own, but when you transport *Cough cough* trillions of passengers a year things can get hectic
12:55:49 <Zuu__> Everytime someone includes CluelessPlus in a game, I sort of play the game without any effort. :-p
12:56:15 <Alberth> Zuu__: too bad you cannot watch it :)
12:57:07 <Zuu__> Alberth: yeah. Although if I want to watch it I can start a game with CluelessPlus :-)
13:00:01 <Simonn> when you do shared oreders
13:00:04 <Simonn> and you want to edit em later
13:00:10 <Simonn> does it matter which vehicle you change it to?
13:00:20 <Alberth> no, they are shared :)
13:00:31 <frosch123> unless you click "unshare" :p
13:01:26 <Simonn> yeah I know thy are shared
13:01:31 <Simonn> but I wondered if it was like
13:01:35 <Yexo> Simonn: you can add all busses with shared orders to a group
13:01:37 <Simonn> or just all slave buses
13:01:51 <Simonn> please tell me I have been dragging shit over for hours
13:02:07 <Yexo> add one bus to the group, then select "add vehicles with shared orders" from the dropdown in the bottom right
13:02:17 <Alberth> Simonn: read more wiki :)
13:02:28 <Zuu__> this drop down is found in the group GUI
13:02:48 <Simonn> yeah yeah Alberth I've read all day but there is so many and my bus drivers can't cope without me
13:03:04 <Simonn> you know how it is with these unions
13:04:19 <frosch123> you can also use the send to depot from the list of shared vehicles
13:04:26 <frosch123> which you can open from the order gui
13:04:33 <frosch123> you only need real groups for autoreplace :)
13:04:47 <Simonn> yeah but it's nice to have a good list
13:04:50 <Simonn> I have so many buses man
13:05:31 <Alberth> you can get a list of visiting buses from each station they visit
13:05:36 <Zuu__> I seldom use the grouping feature. Shared orders is enough in most cases.
13:11:40 <frosch123> i only use them ad-hoc when i need to replace some vehicles
13:12:25 <Yexo> I generally use a single engine type throughout my network, then use replace all
13:12:54 <frosch123> play on mountainious then :)
13:13:23 <Yexo> make railways around the mountains
13:13:49 <frosch123> interestingly nuts provides just those engine classes i used to distinguish
13:13:59 <frosch123> Yexo: doesn't help if source/target are on hill/valley
13:19:56 *** Zuu___ is now known as Zuu_
13:40:23 <Simonn> can't buy road vehicle
13:41:02 <Simonn> I was grouping and cloning the vehicles
13:41:04 <FLHerne> Simonn: Vehicle not available any more? ;-)
13:41:08 <Simonn> maybe they have been taken out of production
13:41:10 <Simonn> does the game do that?
13:41:20 <Simonn> I didn't know that lol
13:41:42 <Zuu_> If you have auto renew enabled, and a vehicle is made obsolate, auto renew will fail with an error like that.
13:42:56 <Simonn> gotta max the service out of em rite
13:43:05 <Simonn> and good for environment
13:43:11 <Simonn> unless the new ones produce less CO2
13:43:23 <Simonn> how to check CO2 output of a vehicle? My company is greener than green
13:43:43 <FLHerne> Simonn: Not implemented yet :P
13:44:59 <Zuu_> Simonn: Neighbours are important have a congestion check which is probably the closest you get.
13:45:29 <Zuu_> Congested towns will grow slower or not at all.
13:45:43 <Zuu_> If you use that Game Script.
13:46:01 <Simonn> oo I have superfast growing enabled
13:46:08 <Simonn> and my network is superefficient
13:46:18 <FLHerne> Zuu_: Gamescripts can measure the number of vehicles? :-)
13:46:42 <Zuu_> FLHerne: Yes. They can get a list of all vehicles for any company.
13:47:11 <FLHerne> Zuu_: And where they are on the map?
13:47:15 <Zuu_> I've been thinking about a goal script that ask you to build one vehicle of each available engine.
13:48:07 <Zuu_> FLHerne: Yes, once you have a list of all vehicle IDs, you can use the vehicle ID to get information about them. Eg. GSVehicle.GetLocation.
13:52:11 <Zuu_> In general game scripts have access to the same information as AIs. Only that before using an API function to get information about company data, it have to select which company to get information about
13:52:46 <Zuu_> This allows for easy porting of some code between AIs and GSs.
13:54:03 <Zuu_> For example several libraries use the same code base and only a simple conversion script to generate one library version for AIs and one version for GSs.
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14:25:43 <Simonn> it's all about trains nowadays
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14:26:25 <Alberth> it is, I thought space flight was the future, such as scram jets
14:26:46 <Simonn> man god bless ur transport company
14:26:54 <Simonn> EVERYONE can see trains = the future
14:27:27 <Simonn> even Billy, my financial advisor, who HATES train travel agrees with the board
14:28:06 <Simonn> maybe I should stop playing this game for a while
15:06:32 <Snail> any ideas about when (and if?) we could expect to have additional counting ways added to randomaction2? :)
15:07:35 <frosch123> i already coded it for var 61
15:07:49 <frosch123> however, you can actually already do the stuff
15:08:02 <frosch123> using var 40, register 100 and random action 84 with count = 0
15:13:06 <Snail> ok... but var40 only gives us the position of the current vehicle in the consist... doesn't it?
15:14:41 <frosch123> it also gives yuo the length
15:16:19 <Snail> but how can I use it to figure out another vehicle's random bit?
15:17:42 <frosch123> get the length, subtract one, put it in var 100, and use random action 84 with count = 0
15:17:59 <frosch123> and "count from front" or so
15:19:14 <Snail> anyway irs in var61 too? so I could use randomaction2 type 80 through var61 to access another vehicle's random bit, right?
15:20:18 <frosch123> var 5f via var61 should be in next nightly
15:24:46 <Snail> but I couldn't find any... am I looking at the wrong page?
15:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's in the general varaction2 page
15:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i totally do not understand the explanation for var 7B on that page
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15:48:40 <Simonn> If I have two tracks coming in
15:48:43 <Simonn> and there are two platforms
15:48:56 <Simonn> which signaling do I use to make sure the train waits before the X
15:49:04 <Simonn> so it picks the first free coming platform
15:50:54 <Simonn> I know how to do it when 1 track becomes to
15:51:08 <Simonn> but what if there are two rails for two platforms, and an X before them
15:53:43 <peter1138> just use path signals, always
15:54:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: var7b[x] = x[acc]
15:56:43 <Simonn> path signals on both rails
15:56:56 <Simonn> - path x2 - X - station 2 platforms
15:59:52 <Simonn> yeaaah I have read that stuff like a hunderd times :p
16:01:38 <Simonn> I just want to be absolutely certain before I unpause and start my entire thing
16:02:05 <Simonn> and at the end of the platform, so that it unclears, just normal sigals rite?
16:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use path signals everywhere
16:02:44 <FLHerne> Simonn: You can use path signals for pretty much anything, anywhere
16:02:48 <fjb> Just put them before the crossing, not after it.
16:02:59 <Simonn> yeah but at the end of the platform too right?
16:03:12 <Zuu> Yes, that is usually before a crossing
16:03:23 <FLHerne> With the exception of weird OTTD-coop invented things ;-)
16:06:25 <Simonn> I think I made things a lil too complicated for a beginner first game
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16:29:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24527 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] Allow resolving var 5F via vehicle var 61.
16:31:52 <Kjetil> oh.. the famous var 61..
16:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24528 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix: [NewGRF] RandomAction 84 should interpret register 100 as signed.
16:59:52 <Leander> is there some kind of calculator to see with how many wagons a train loses speed and stuff?
17:00:49 <Leander> or a table or something
17:01:48 <Zuu> I think some people have made spreadsheets on that subject that have been posted on the forums.
17:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: 5F is random bits
17:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: with 5F you can access the random bits directly, instead of indirectly via randomaction2
17:05:50 <Zuu> So this makes it easier to randomize wagon appearance of a train?
17:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: e.g. in CETS i make a calculation based on date of last service + random number, to delay the repainting of the consist
17:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tested it, though
17:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the idea is that when a new livery comes out, the new vehicles are repainted immediately, but the old vehicles are only repainted after a randomized delay (up to 3 years currently)
17:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so in that time you get a mix between old and new liveries
17:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: simple appearance chances you can do easier with randomaction2
17:12:52 <Zuu> Ok, sounds interesting. I should perhaps try your CETS set in a game.
17:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> please do that. keep in mind that only the early prussian vehicles currently have real graphics
17:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so ca. 1880 to 1920
17:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but iirc the first graphics changes are after 1920
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17:35:57 <Leander> this is a correct usage of the path signs right?
17:35:59 *** Leander is now known as Simonn
17:36:07 <Simonn> it will work like this?
17:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks correct
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17:40:44 <Simonn> is there a way to place signals in tunnels?
17:40:55 <Simonn> so that there can be two trains in the tunnel at the same time
17:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> just a very hacky patch, which i would not recommend to anyone
17:42:22 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: It actually works quite reliably, barring a few quirks :-)
17:42:29 <BtbN> btw., is there an easy way to enable cheats on a dedicated server? My towns have grown a lot, and won't allow me some station fixes i want to make
17:42:41 <FLHerne> But yes, very hacky, and has quite a lot of those quirks :P
17:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "a few quirks" as in "does not work at all with path signals"?
17:43:44 <BtbN> why not just treat a tunnel as if there's a path signal every 2nd field?
17:44:14 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: ll you have to do is put a block signal before and after each tunnel :-)
17:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> BtbN: cheats are not multiplayer safe
17:44:45 <FLHerne> Anyway, it does sort-of work with path signals in some cases
17:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: which is already enough of a space restriction to make the patch completely useless (for me)
17:45:02 <BtbN> Eddi|zuHause: all i want is the remove everything cheat
17:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> BtbN: that still does not make it multiplayer safe
17:45:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24529 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt korean.txt latvian.txt):
17:45:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by yozi
17:45:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by telk5093
17:45:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
17:45:34 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I use it for valley-spanning bridges and mountain base tunnels. Space no issue :P
17:46:01 <BtbN> Eddi|zuHause: Why is it not safe to allow removing everything for a few minutes?
17:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> BtbN: you have to quit the multiplayer game, load it in single player, use the cheat, disable the cheat again (! important !), and reaload it in multiplayer
17:46:24 <FLHerne> Anyway, there are some situations where you can place a path signal directly after a tunnel :P
17:46:32 <BtbN> i still don't get how it can be not safe
17:46:37 <FLHerne> Can't remember exactly which then :P
17:46:44 <BtbN> sure, everybody could remove everything, but i'm ok with that
17:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: it is, if i have a junction and a station directly before/after the bridge
17:47:14 <Knogle> BtbN: so people could remove eachothers industries and what not.
17:47:29 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Move the junction/station along by one tile? :P
17:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's exactly why i say "too much"
17:48:07 <BtbN> Knogle: Sure, but it's a server just for me and some friends, and sending the savegame to all of them, so they can fix their stations and towns, is not an option.
17:48:47 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Since when has one tile mattered about anything? :o
17:48:47 <Knogle> well, it's not possible, afaik.
17:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: on my maps? i'm _always_ one tile short of anything
17:49:45 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: How do you manage that? Anyway, you'll waste more space with 10 parallel bridges... :P
17:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: imagine a "subway" in a large town, two tracks, stations need to be "surface", tunnels inbetween.
17:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: currently, you need ~3 tiles for the station, 2 tiles for signals, 2 tiles for tunnel entrances = 7 tiles
17:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you could reduce that to 5 tiles with the patch, by placing the singals on the tunnel entrances
17:51:06 <Eddi|zuHause> BUT you cannot do that at the end station, where you need a path signal
17:51:52 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: So? Most of the time you save space, and at the end you still need less space than merging 4 parallel tunnels :P
17:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: you also cannot have splits inbetween
17:53:48 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Again, that's still an improvement on anything you can do without the patch :P
17:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: another situation, you have a bridge over a valley, a junction, a station, another junction, and a tunnel entrance.
17:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot move the bridge end, neither the tunnel entrance, and the station needs a certain length
17:54:27 <FLHerne> Yes, a 'proper' patch would be better?
17:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need TWO!! additional tiles to place block signals
17:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not only not an improvement, but also makes it WORSE than without the patch
17:55:11 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: So at the moment, where would you place all the tiles to split/merge all the parallel bridges and tunnels?
17:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i rarely have the need to do parallel bridges
17:55:52 <FLHerne> It's impossible for the patch to make it 'worse', just don't build signals on bridges where you don't want them, and it behaves the same as trunk :P
17:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the few cases i do, they only need more width, not more length
17:56:44 <FLHerne> If you don't need parallel bridges, why would you want to put signals on them anyway?
17:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: so "just don't use it" means it's "useless"
17:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: to save space. i said that
17:57:26 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: No, it's extremely useful in many situations. In the ones where it isn't, don't use it...
17:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: if i could place the entrance signal of the junction on the last bridge tile, i could save 1 tile of space for the junction
17:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and with custombridgeheads, i could save another tile
17:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but for that to work, it must be a path signal on the bridge
18:08:54 <fjb> BtbN: Just make the towns happy by planting trees.
18:09:07 <BtbN> fjb: does not work forever.
18:10:03 <Simonn> is there a way to check delays at an airport?
18:10:40 <fjb> BtbN: Then serve the statios of the town well. It will keep your reputation high enough.
18:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> BtbN: it works for ~3 houses at a time, but can be repeated indefinitely
18:11:25 <BtbN> It would take years to finish it that way
18:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> or: create a company, remove 10 houses in each town, remove the company [repeat]
18:17:10 <Simonn> is there a setting that always "airport too close to another airport" to be overriden?
18:17:14 <Simonn> or changed to more permissive?
18:18:07 <fjb> Use only one airport per station.
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18:18:55 <Simonn> why only one airport per station?
18:18:59 <Simonn> I have everything linked together
18:19:14 <Simonn> 3 train stations, couple of bus/tram stops and an intercontinental airport
18:19:21 <Simonn> but i'm losing profit because the intercontinental airport can't handle the traffic
18:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: the game mechanics are currently unable to distribute the planes between the entry points of different airports
18:19:43 <Simonn> what does that mean exactly :p
18:20:15 <Simonn> so there is no way? :(
18:20:19 <fjb> The planes would find only one of the airports.
18:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the solution would be: implement it!
18:20:47 <Simonn> yeah but it'll become the same airport
18:21:21 <Simonn> but I even don't understand why it can't handle the traffic.. the parking spots are empty
18:21:22 <Zuu> To do that, you will need to implement some way for the planes do decide which airport to use.
18:21:27 <Simonn> just the runways are always occupied
18:21:29 <fjb> But they wouls only find one of the linked airports.
18:21:43 <Simonn> so even if I place a 2nd one, it won't be used?
18:21:46 <Simonn> is that what you are saying
18:22:31 <Simonn> Is there no way to overcome this problem?
18:22:35 <Simonn> an addon or trick or whatever?
18:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you write it, he will come
18:23:20 <Zuu> Simonn: It is possible to re-work the OpenTTD code so that there can be multiple airports in the same station. However that is a non-trivial task. I don't know of any published attempts to do that.
18:23:43 <Simonn> hmm i'm talking more about an ingame trick
18:23:57 <Simonn> what if I would place a railroad in between connecting the two intercontinental airports
18:24:00 <Simonn> would they share the traffic a bit?
18:24:04 <Zuu> Split the station and transfer cargo?
18:24:16 <Kjetil> Couldn't the entry points on airports be handled like presignals on a railway station ?
18:24:48 <Simonn> So I have airport A with all my railroads connected to it and what not
18:25:01 <Simonn> could I open Airport B and use a railroad with transfer the passengers to B
18:25:08 <Simonn> and link some planes to that to diminish traffic a lil?
18:25:29 <Zuu> You could make 50% of your aircraft use Airport B.
18:25:54 <Zuu> If Airport B accepts passengers, all you need is some trains that roughtly transport 50% of the passengers that A attracts to B.
18:25:55 <Simonn> and then a railroad in between?
18:26:18 <Simonn> so just a train that goes round and round and round and unloads, loads unloads loads
18:26:36 <Zuu> Just don't try to transport passengers in both directions using transfer orders.
18:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, on one side it loads, and on the other side it "transfer and leave emty"
18:26:52 <Zuu> The train going from A to B will load at A and transfer and leave empty at B.
18:27:07 <Simonn> yeah thats what I meant
18:27:16 <Simonn> but what about passengers arriving at B?
18:27:24 <Simonn> nvm they'll be picked up by other planes I guess?
18:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you must have enough houses nearby so the planes can directly unload
18:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the planes cannot transfer
18:27:47 <Simonn> The planes are just "go to" - "go to" between airports
18:28:14 <Simonn> will a plane delivering stuff to Airport B
18:28:15 <Zuu> And if B attract passengers from houses, they cannot be transported by train to A
18:28:27 <Simonn> take passengers from other planes
18:28:30 <Simonn> that arrived there previously?
18:28:31 <Zuu> (or you will end up transporting passengers back and fourth between A and B)
18:29:19 <Simonn> there are no houses nearby
18:29:34 <Simonn> this is kind of my situation
18:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: no, planes unloading for other planes will not work
18:29:49 <Simonn> then the passengers would be stranded forever lol
18:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: the airport must accept passengers
18:30:10 <Zuu> If there are now houses nearby B, then you need a two way transfer system where B is two airports B1 and B2 and have planes unload at B1, go empty to B2 and there load passengers.
18:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: both of them
18:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: use a bus station with Ctrl+build
18:30:40 <Simonn> and go around the city a lil bit?
18:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: just close enough that it accepts passengers. you do not want to take away too many passengers from the other airport
18:32:07 <Zuu> Ideally, B only covers a few houses. Enough that it will have a stable acceptance of passengers, but not take away passengers from A unnedlessly.
18:32:22 <Simonn> this stuff is complicated
18:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is. but there is currently no better solution
18:33:23 <Simonn> are there any plans to implement the thing that I am looking for?
18:33:30 <Simonn> like some smart guy workoing on this
18:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but they have not gone very far
18:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no ETAs whatsoever
18:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> never with opensource
18:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik nobody is actively working on it currently
18:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a side project of a much bigger issue, customisable airports via NewGRFs
18:34:41 <Zuu> afaik the last attempts to work on airport stuff was about a year ago.
18:36:35 <Simonn> you guys are so patient with me <333
18:36:46 <Simonn> do you think this coverage is enough
18:36:55 <Simonn> so it gets rid of the passengers?
18:36:58 <Zuu> One of the key items in your case is that when a vehicle is ordered to transfer cargo, it will be unloaded at a station as transfer cargo and not be accepted by the station even if the station accepts the cargo.
18:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: it should say "accepts: Passengers" in the station build window
18:37:36 <Simonn> but I thought it mattered
18:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> then that is enough
18:37:46 <Zuu> Once at the station, there is however not any way (for orders) to distingush between transfered cargo and cargo that have been accepted from nearby houses.
18:37:50 <Simonn> I thought it mattered how many houses were in the range
18:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: but only up to ~4 houses
18:38:26 <Zuu> You need >= 8 passenger units to accept passengers.
18:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> after that it is irrelevant
18:38:41 <Zuu> You can use the info tool to see how many units each house offers.
18:38:53 <Simonn> where cna I see units?
18:39:30 <Simonn> it has like 10 houses in range
18:39:42 <Simonn> so I assume it will accept everything the planes set there?
18:39:49 <Zuu> Though, in the GUI it shows 1/8 etc. and in that case a sum of 1,0 is enough.
18:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: yes, with 5/8, two houses are enough
18:40:32 <Zuu> Internally it however use integer values and therefore eg. AIs need to check for >= 8.
18:40:38 <Simonn> some say just "passengers"
18:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: yes, then 1 house is enough
18:41:05 <Simonn> I must have an ownage house
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18:41:10 <Simonn> I mean ownage HQ city*
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18:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the HQ accepts passengers as well, so if all else fails, place your HQ nearby :)
18:41:45 <Simonn> you can actually place an HQ?
18:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, from your company window
18:42:36 <Simonn> so technically I could go out into the open
18:42:39 <Simonn> and build all my airports there?
18:42:42 <Simonn> and placem my HQ in the middle?
18:42:46 <Simonn> and use that as my suberhub?
18:43:26 <Zuu> Then all those airports will accept passengers
18:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, bring the passengers by train from the nearby city, load them onto planes, fly them far away.
18:44:00 <Zuu> From far away, you can fly planes to this hub and the passengers will be accepted.
18:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that the train must run back empty
18:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can only have one HQ
18:44:29 <Simonn> well at the moment I do it like this
18:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so you cannot have two such places
18:44:36 <Simonn> every city has one, two, three Tram rings
18:44:46 <Zuu> Eg. you can either deliver passengers to your HQ or transfer them to allow an airplane (or train or any vehicle) pick them up.
18:44:46 <Simonn> and they go around in circles and 'unload and leave empty' at my Hubs
18:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> use "transfer and leave empty", not "unload and leave empty"
18:45:10 <Simonn> yeah thats what I mean
18:45:14 <Simonn> My hubs have trains running through them with 'go to' connecting them to all other hubs
18:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> important difference :)
18:45:19 <Simonn> and also planes with 'go to'
18:45:27 <Simonn> and they all go to the intercontintal airports
18:45:40 <Simonn> am I doing something wrong or is this setup nice?
18:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that'll probably work
18:46:06 <Simonn> so to recap. Half of my planes from the small hubs are send to my intercontinental 1 or 2
18:46:17 <Simonn> 1 transfers passengers coming from my trains & trams to 2, never in reverse
18:46:32 <Simonn> and 2 will unload the passengers coming from planes to the houses nearby, because they have 8/8 after that it doesn't matter
18:47:25 <Zuu> After having practiced this, you can also read up on two-way feeder systems on the wiki. However, I guess it is already enough new that it is better to practice this before reading about even more stuff.
18:47:43 <Simonn> well I already knew about one way feeder
18:47:50 <Simonn> I use the 'unload and leave empty' with my buses
18:47:55 <Simonn> who collect passengers from the city to my hubs
18:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> however, i predict if you try to load your game in CargoDist, your efficiency drops to near 0, because planes don't have nearly enough capactity to carry all the passengers that they have to :p
18:48:26 <Zuu> In that case you should be using 'transfer and leave empty' - not the 'unload an leave empty' order.
18:48:37 <Simonn> yeah damnit I always mix them up
18:50:09 <Simonn> hmm I just read that two way feeder service thing
18:50:12 <Simonn> won't that be better for me? :x
18:50:17 <Simonn> I think I could make it work
18:51:19 <Zuu> Utilzation of your aircrafts will drop, but allow transporting the passengers a little bit further by train.
18:51:34 <Simonn> hmm I don't want them to drop
18:51:37 <Simonn> maybe one way feeder is better then?
18:52:49 <Zuu> If aircraft are expansive to run, then the two way feeder is expansive as you will run the aircrafts empty for quite some time. If aircraft are cheap, then the two-way feeder may work.
18:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> two-way-feeder doesn't really make sense
18:53:16 <Zuu> The two-way feeder need more space
18:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not do it if i could avoid it
18:53:32 <Simonn> so Eddi|zuHause you would go with the one way
18:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the only case it makes sense is valuables
18:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> when you can't place your station near the bank
18:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets easier with cargo destinations
18:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you have different problems
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19:20:34 <Simonn> when destroying one train station
19:20:39 <Simonn> linked with other train stations
19:20:41 <Simonn> they are all destroyed
19:20:45 <Simonn> any way to unlink them first?
19:21:08 <Rubidium> use the bulldozer instead of dynamite
19:22:52 <Simonn> ah found it nvm thanks
19:28:42 <BtbN> Hm, i patched the openttd server, so i could enable the magic bulldozer via console. But it seems like the client decides what he's able to bulldoze
19:31:29 <Hirundo> Yes, client and server execute the same commands independently
19:31:45 <BtbN> ok, so i have to patch the client, too
19:32:24 <Hirundo> Commands (e.g. build X, bulldoze Y, change orders for vehicle Z) are sent across the net, but not their results, so if results differ, you get a desync error
19:33:13 <BtbN> yeah, so i have to watch out client and server are in the same state
19:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that is exactly what is meant with "cheats are not multiplayer safe"
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19:58:58 <BtbN> Eddi|zuHause: and what's the problem with synchronizing cheats state between client and server?
19:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> BtbN: nobody has ever looked at any
19:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> because it was never a design goal, it did not need checking
20:00:32 <BtbN> It's annoying as some cheats are very usefull
20:01:22 <BtbN> and sending the current cheats status to all clients when the status changed or a client connects, should not be that complicated
20:03:20 <Rubidium> unfair advantages, cache issues, ...
20:06:39 <BtbN> i don't see whats unfair, if some server admin abuses the cheats, that sucks, sure, but it's his problem
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21:18:26 <Simonn> is there any way to increase capacity of an airport?
21:18:46 <Simonn> I'm about the open up my third intercontinental one I don't know how longer I can keep this up lol
21:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the state machines are not properly optimised, the international airport may be slightly more efficient (someone did a test once)
21:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> my experience is that with careful timetabling you can squeeze out some further efficiency on the smaller airports
21:21:20 <Simonn> so international ones are more efficient than the intercontinental?
21:21:27 <Supercheese> yep, strange as it sounds
21:21:35 <Supercheese> lemme dig up the confirming evidence
21:21:48 <Simonn> because international ones don't look cewl
21:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but i did not have the patience to try handle timetables with so many planes for a large airport
21:21:57 <Simonn> and I don't use time tables
21:22:01 <Simonn> they just come and leave
21:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> timetables might not have such a big effect, because landing and taking off don't overlap on the large airports
21:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but e.g. on the commuter airport, it can almost double the capacity
21:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can interleave landing and starting properly
21:23:51 <Simonn> my runways are always full
21:23:59 <Simonn> planes are always circling
21:24:03 <Simonn> and it makes me lose money
21:24:07 <Simonn> because I guess they arrive later?
21:24:24 <Supercheese> if you've zillions of circling planes
21:24:26 <Supercheese> it is time for more airports
21:24:38 <Supercheese> and the International actually is better than intercontinental for throughput
21:24:46 <Supercheese> so more internationals
21:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if you used timetables, you could immediately see when you have too many planes
21:24:50 <Supercheese> bulldoze the intercontinentals
21:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but timetable management is fiddly
21:25:23 <Supercheese> if you want functionality, go international
21:25:29 <Supercheese> aesthetics, choose whatever floats yer boatr
21:25:54 <Simonn> I mean does it matter a lot?
21:26:08 <Supercheese> it's a small amount
21:26:13 <Supercheese> but slightly more efficient
21:26:19 <Supercheese> read the thread I linked
21:26:38 <Supercheese> reason I like internationals is in addition to being more efficient they take less space
21:27:02 <Supercheese> and I believe also have lower maintenance costs if you play with maintenance on
21:27:05 <Supercheese> win-win-win really
21:27:18 <Supercheese> but in the end it's yer choice
21:27:26 <Supercheese> don't let me dictate your games ;)
21:27:52 <Simonn> Eddi|zuHause: what we talked about earlier
21:27:55 <Simonn> with the transfering to airports
21:28:00 <Simonn> I could link as many as I want right?
21:28:08 <Simonn> just add another airport C, and do the transfers from A to C
21:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> adjust train length or amount, if passengers pile up too much on one airport
21:29:21 <Simonn> pff all my trains are 7 long
21:29:30 <Simonn> and there are always 3 in every direction
21:30:42 <Supercheese> You can add some "subways" to link the airports, they have great capacity (with standing-room parameter) ;)
21:30:52 <Supercheese> (which is default)
21:31:50 <Simonn> wait I'll show you what I have
21:31:53 <Simonn> I have been no lifing lol
21:32:11 <Simonn> Another question: implicit orders, I know what they are -> does the train standard get rid & get new passengers
21:49:49 <FLHerne> AARGH! HIDEOUS MAGLEVS! :P
21:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i would never build anything like that... but whatever floats your boat :p
21:50:16 * Supercheese is also not fond of 100% maglev networks
21:50:26 <Simonn> it's my first try :(((
21:50:33 <Supercheese> I don't mind when maglevs are used as a supplementary method of transport
21:50:43 <FLHerne> Simonn: Nothing, but I find maglevs ugly :P
21:51:06 <Simonn> this is standard commodity
21:51:09 <Supercheese> Yes, the train selections depend on which set you are using
21:51:19 <Supercheese> if default vehicles, then yeah maglevs are pretty much all ya got
21:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: you should move the signal, so it's not directly after the junction
21:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the one that's directly after the junction
21:52:17 <Supercheese> You have a city airport... why>
21:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> from the "south" airport
21:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the next signal after the train leaves the station
21:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> move that to directly before the depot
21:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and the one after that, move that to directly before the tunnel
21:53:52 <FLHerne> Totally inefficient, but nice-looking (to me, at least ;-) )
21:54:25 <Simonn> are you people like old school
21:54:28 <Simonn> i'm living in tha future
21:54:41 <Supercheese> Steam engines >>> all others ;)
21:54:46 <FLHerne> Well, I hate playing into the future :P
21:55:01 <Simonn> thats okay if you can't handle the fast lifestyle ;-)
21:55:05 * FLHerne starts in 1920, plays through to 2012, then starts a new game :-)
21:55:18 <FLHerne> If I'm really bored, I start in 1870 :P
21:55:24 <Simonn> I started in 2012 with big cities
21:55:35 <Supercheese> I tend to start a game, play until the game gets absurdly complex and cargo starts piling up at every station, then start over :P
21:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> my last game looked like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
21:55:59 <Supercheese> that usually happens rather fast, actually, since I build while paused and cheat myself loads of money
21:56:02 <Eddi|zuHause> started around 1920-ish
21:56:23 <Simonn> dude how do you make such a big screenshot
21:56:41 <Simonn> I did it with PRTSCR and aint
21:56:42 <Supercheese> Holy ships, Batman
21:57:02 <Supercheese> You've got more hydrofoils than you can stick a shake at
21:57:10 * FLHerne goes to screenshot his game
21:57:16 <Simonn> on the first part to load
21:57:27 <Supercheese> there's a "giant screenshot" option
21:57:34 <FLHerne> Whoops, wrong OTTD version installed :-(
21:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it has lots of black on the corners
21:57:44 <FLHerne> I'll have to do it another time :P
21:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the tram networks are the most fiddly, because they depend badly on timetables
21:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise they just bunch up and arrive all directly after each other, then nothing for half a year
22:01:12 <Simonn> that stuff won't load in my browser
22:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> also i timetabled the maglev line, because one stopping at the merge is a hopeless capacity reduction
22:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Simonn: right-click and save to disk?
22:02:04 <Simonn> and my tram net and stuff doesn't depend on tietables
22:02:20 <Simonn> my stations always have 500 passengers in them, it's a circle and there is always 1 tram at every station
22:02:25 <Simonn> as soon as the tram leaves, another one arrives
22:02:29 <Supercheese> vanilla timetables are absurdly fiddl
22:02:41 <Supercheese> auto vehicle separation patches worked well though
22:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> autoseparation has horrible side effects when you have a jam
22:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i always use manual separation
22:04:33 <Supercheese> I've given up on timetables (except to limit speeds)
22:05:03 <Supercheese> they tend to be TMWFTLB
22:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i dream of having a properly timetabled train network once...
22:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but they take too much time, and you can't do everything while paused
22:06:19 * Supercheese does most everything while paused
22:06:24 <Supercheese> esp. since it's no longer a cheat
22:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot let a train drive to measure the time, while paused.
22:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> attention when making giant screenshots: it takes _ages_ with large maps, and no known program can load the resulting file (because the programs will try to decompress the whole file in memory, which takes several GiB of RAM)
22:12:50 <peter1138> Supercheese, *almost
22:13:32 <Supercheese> Hmm, "most everything" not good enough?
22:14:01 <peter1138> most and almost are different words
22:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> does the al- mean it's derived from arabic? :p
22:14:53 <Supercheese> "the adverb most that is a shortening of almost has been attested in the language since the earli 17th century"
22:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: but you don't speak early 17th century english either.
22:16:16 <peter1138> i am aware that almost all american people get it wrong
22:16:23 <peter1138> but then they get tons of other stuff wrong too
22:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but you get that a lot when learning spanish, most words that start with al- are derived from arabic
22:16:44 <FLHerne> I certainly wouldn't recognise 'most' in that context as valid grammar :P
22:16:50 <Supercheese> I'd type the whole article I'm referencing but that'd take forever
22:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i also had to read over "most everything" twice to get what was meant...
22:17:25 <Supercheese> Seems to be an Americanism then
22:17:33 <Supercheese> or United Statesism?
22:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have english as a foreign language
22:21:26 <Supercheese> English /= American apparently
22:21:40 <Supercheese> (of course that's not news ;) )
22:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, the courses in school focused on british english, but there were a few things about american english as well. and generally it's accepted if you write stuff in american english in tests and essays (just do not mix styles)
22:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and of course the english have really weird dialects as well :)
22:26:18 <Simonn> I kind of did some wrong signaling
22:26:22 <Simonn> how do I get out of this situation
22:27:05 <Supercheese> you're in quite a pickle
22:27:16 <SpComb> replace one of the tracks with a depot
22:27:34 <Supercheese> yeah, blow up one signal and stick a depot there
22:27:43 <SpComb> your track-junctions are a little ..
22:28:03 <Supercheese> disabling 90 degree turns will help avoid this
22:28:18 <Supercheese> (and yeah, also better junctioning
22:29:19 <FLHerne> Simonn: Any junction that relies on 90 degree turns is seriously flawed :P
22:29:25 <Simonn> it isn't 90 degrees lol
22:29:28 <Simonn> but one track wasn't made
22:29:49 <Supercheese> maglev junctions are notoriously difficult to see
22:30:04 <Simonn> I have had this problem before
22:30:10 <Simonn> but the train just came along at the worst time possible
22:30:14 <FLHerne> How do trains exit the second platform from the right then?
22:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> remove the two signals with track, and make a loop
22:30:25 <FLHerne> Or is that the missing bit of track?
22:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> missing tracks are hard to see with maglev
22:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> try the "shanghai maglev inspired track set" (or so)
22:31:50 <Simonn> FLHerne: that was missing too
22:32:07 <Simonn> the train came out of the 2nd track, but couldn't turn right onto the junction
22:32:10 <Simonn> but I didn't see it with those tracks
22:32:20 <Simonn> so it turned right instead, the only way it could go
22:32:44 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Nice looking game.
22:32:54 <Simonn> i'm uberlucky that the train is like not 1 unit longer
22:32:57 <Simonn> or I couldn't build the depo
22:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: thanks. it's already a year old now
22:35:58 * Supercheese prefers TTD gfx over OpenGFX
22:36:27 * FLHerne prefers OGFX+ without the gridlines :P
22:36:35 * Supercheese likes the gridlines
22:36:42 <FLHerne> Both sets of default trees are hideous :-(
22:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i could live without the gridlines
22:36:56 <FLHerne> The gridlines are ugly too :D
22:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but OpenGFX has a very dark style
22:37:12 * fjb likes OpenGFX since the addition of hay bales.
22:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and some things are rendered really fuzzily
22:39:25 <FLHerne> Well, the only bit of OGFX I ever see is the trees :P
22:39:35 <FLHerne> s/trees/ground tiles/ :o
22:39:48 <FLHerne> Quite a major difference there...
22:40:10 <FLHerne> Oh, and a couple of the industries
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