IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-09-09
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01:43:39 <Kylie> do feeder services count
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07:01:55 <Alberth> hi, early as always :)
07:02:43 <Terkhen> sadly, my natural alarm clock still wakes me up at 8 in weekends :P
07:03:00 <Terkhen> even when I had nearly no sleep
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09:46:49 <Zuu> good morning Alberth + andythenorth
09:52:13 * andythenorth was wondering how a GS could be bundled with grf presets
09:52:21 <andythenorth> for base costs etc
09:52:44 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley or NoCarGoal games usually have to be restarted a few times due to bad costs
09:53:25 <andythenorth> is new scenario format best solution to that?
09:55:11 <Alberth> Isn't it the same kind of problem of using a new GRF and restarting because you forgot something?
09:55:11 <Alberth> Also, different people want different challenges, so some experimentation will happen anyway
09:56:33 <Alberth> ie SP, "build 5 toy factories in 10 years", does n't seem realistic at all :p
09:57:35 <andythenorth> it's quite a faff though
09:58:02 <andythenorth> I'm wondering if FIRS could normalise industry costs for example
09:58:06 <andythenorth> to make it easier for GS
09:58:44 <andythenorth> costs are a mess anyway tbh
09:59:11 <andythenorth> for example rebalancing HEQS against default vehicles wouldn't work, because default vehicles have flawed costs
09:59:22 * andythenorth is thinking aloud
09:59:34 <Alberth> I am not sure changing industry costs solves anything
09:59:59 <Alberth> what are you trying to solve exactly?
10:00:22 <Alberth> ie alternatively, make a GS for 1 new industry instead of 3
10:00:42 <andythenorth> (1) it would be nice if setting up GS was less trial and error
10:00:48 <Alberth> is that less fun, or unwanted, or ???
10:01:02 <andythenorth> (2) I plan to rebalance costs in some of my grfs, but I think costs are a bit of a mess generally
10:01:35 <andythenorth> it would be interesting if a GS could set the default values of grf parameters
10:02:07 <Alberth> 2 is pretty simple I think. Make sure the set is consistent with itself, and perhaps some 'neighbour' sets
10:02:26 <andythenorth> neighbour sets are misleading :P
10:02:30 <andythenorth> that's how I got it wrong :)
10:03:25 <Alberth> selecting the right neighbours is the tricky part :p perhaps you didn't play neighboursAreImportant enough :)
10:03:57 <Alberth> 1 is more about us having little clue how much money you can make in say 10 years
10:04:36 <Alberth> and/or being unfamiliar with costs of used grfs
10:06:04 <Alberth> at least, I never even bothered to fund industries at any scale in my games. If I did, it was late in the game, where costs are irrelevant.
10:06:31 <andythenorth> vehicles lack the equivalent of "Mario in Standard Kart"
10:06:48 <andythenorth> Mario is the most balanced character in MK
10:07:02 <andythenorth> and the standard kart the most balanced
10:07:17 * Alberth has never played mario ;)
10:07:38 <andythenorth> it would be nice to have a reference vehicle
10:08:47 <Alberth> make one? a newgrf recommendation-like wiki page
10:09:03 <Alberth> but getting some form of agreement may be difficult
10:10:29 <Alberth> you'd have to compare various vehicle sets in some way
10:11:35 <andythenorth> essentially the measure is net profit per ton-mile
10:11:43 <andythenorth> but there are so many factors :P
10:11:51 * Alberth ponders about the costs of opengfx+
10:11:53 <andythenorth> and it's only a game :P
10:13:12 <andythenorth> essentially all I really care about is that there is a distortion favouring trains
10:13:22 <andythenorth> even over relatively short distances
10:14:09 <andythenorth> it's less interesting
10:14:18 <Alberth> how did you obtain truck costs?
10:14:36 <andythenorth> balanced against eGRVTS approximately
10:14:52 <Alberth> (assuming you mean trucks mostly and not ships)
10:15:04 <andythenorth> ships have same issues currently
10:15:17 <Alberth> perhaps balance them against trains?
10:15:35 <andythenorth> HEQS is a distorted comparison, because the trucks are slow
10:15:50 <andythenorth> in RL mining trucks are *very* expensive to operate over long distances
10:15:57 <andythenorth> the tyres explode :P
10:16:28 <andythenorth> but also in RL, freight train average speed was something like 30mph in the 1960s, not 100mph :P
10:16:29 <Alberth> no need for dynamite here,just drive the trucks around in the mine :p
10:17:45 <Alberth> but RL is non-relevant anyway :p
10:21:09 <Rubidium> luckily it's easily found
10:21:28 <andythenorth> no need to put it in water
10:26:35 <Rubidium> that tyre is still okay; I see no bubbles
10:27:13 <andythenorth> road falls into river
10:27:21 <andythenorth> rivers are under-loved in the game :(
10:27:24 <Rubidium> it's called flooding
10:27:27 <andythenorth> we should make them....interesting
10:27:52 <andythenorth> changing course?
10:28:59 <Rubidium> to don't care about any OpenTTD issue ;)
10:29:31 <Rubidium> silence is golden, especially in the suggestions threads
10:30:16 <Rubidium> mostly because each time you say no, with whatever reasoning, you're declared arrogant and so forth
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10:50:49 <andythenorth> I *am* arrogant :P
10:52:49 <frosch123> yay, i managed to forget that i did not know gdb hotkeys
10:52:56 <frosch123> so my fingers could take over again
10:53:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: just move to simuscape :p
10:57:21 <Zuu> Rubidium: turn that 'no' to 'maybe in the future' or 'the future will tell' :-p
10:58:43 <andythenorth> "I'll add it to the backlog"
10:59:09 <Rubidium> Zuu: but then the next question is: "is it done yet"?
10:59:28 <frosch123> just maintain a global todo list
10:59:33 <Zuu> and the response to that is not 'no', but 'maybe in the future' :-p
10:59:41 <frosch123> then you can link them to a list of 200 things :)
11:00:25 <Rubidium> that's called the issue tracker
11:02:10 <frosch123> so the answer should be "put it on the list"
11:02:46 <Alberth> that happens automagically already
11:08:20 <andythenorth> where's newgrf smoke on that list :P
11:08:32 <frosch123> ah, that's the reason it's not done yet
11:28:03 <andythenorth> in co-opetive GS, would it be interesting if different players had different vehicles?
11:31:16 <andythenorth> shame we can't have a private bananas for test grfs
11:31:27 <andythenorth> such as have openttd be a client for coop bundles server
11:31:41 <frosch123> just the the min version to nightly
11:37:24 <andythenorth> the main issue is savegame breakage
11:37:55 <Hirundo> How does that new supplies algorithm work? *curious*
11:38:57 <Alberth> different players different vehicle sets is not something specific for GS imho
11:38:58 <andythenorth> deliver n tonnes of supplies, get a boost for 3 months
11:42:14 <Alberth> andy: new test-victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hplayer !
11:44:38 <andythenorth> I think Yexo finished the patch for all primaries
11:44:48 <andythenorth> however the industry window text needs to change :)
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11:47:01 <andythenorth> I would look at it, but I'm clearing the ground floor of my house for building work
11:48:01 <andythenorth> and it takes so long to figure out the text stack :)
11:48:12 <andythenorth> and push everything around into the correct size variables
12:30:23 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You fixed the supplies? :-)
12:53:48 <FLHerne> From the brief description, it would appear to be for the better :-)
12:54:22 <frosch123> hmm, how to name my smurf account on the forums?
12:56:24 <frosch123> "fred" is already taken
13:01:57 <frosch123> nah, if we all name us fred, it becomes too obvious
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13:16:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: andythesouth?
13:18:39 <frosch123> well, maybe not posting is still the easiest solution
13:43:47 <Dans34> anyone know how i can stop a company from being removed , even if i have the option set in the config?
13:43:58 <Dans34> *stop a specific company
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15:01:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: for a short Silicon Valley game, how about increasing all primary industry production at map gen?
15:01:57 <frosch123> just play a different gs :p
15:02:02 <frosch123> or transport pax at start
15:02:09 <frosch123> yesterday we started really stupid
15:02:20 <andythenorth> we should have transported pax
15:02:27 <andythenorth> and built a rail spine route
15:02:36 <andythenorth> with lots of differerent cargos on it
15:02:45 <andythenorth> instead of an expensive elrail spaghetti network :D
15:03:25 <andythenorth> anyway, I might be close to having a patched FIRS supplies grf for testing, just sorting out industry window text
15:03:33 <andythenorth> maybe another game this evening? :)
15:03:48 <frosch123> we can also play nocargoal
15:03:56 <frosch123> that can be adjusted for shorter games :)
15:04:08 <andythenorth> might be a better test of supplies
15:04:10 <frosch123> but silicon is pointless for too short games
15:04:29 <andythenorth> it's nice how we've played it
15:04:37 <andythenorth> I think it's pretty well finished :)
15:06:08 <Snail> I have a question for the developers... would it be possible to add a way to count the vehicles from the last one towards the engine in RandomAction2 type 84?
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15:07:17 <frosch123> what is the german translation of "Goal" in gs context? :p
15:07:30 <frosch123> Snail: yes, it is possible
15:07:41 <frosch123> iirc it was excluded back then because it was hard for ttdp
15:07:53 <frosch123> but for ottd forward/backward makes no difference
15:08:24 <Snail> sounds great. Could we add it? It would be very useful for push-pull trains (and other stuff too)
15:09:02 <Dans34> is it posible for a server admin to give cash to a company ?
15:09:56 <frosch123> Dans34: you can save the game, load it as singleplayer, use the cheats, and load it again in multiplayer
15:11:34 <Hirundo> I'd be more in favor of making random bits available via var 61, though ofc one does not exclude the other
15:12:05 <frosch123> yeah, i think it was only forgotten for var 61 :)
15:12:24 <frosch123> it needs special handling, and instead of adding it, we only documented that it does not work :p
15:12:44 <Hirundo> Yes, currently var61 just calls VehicleGetVariable, IIRC
15:14:13 <Snail> Hirundo: that would be nice, however adding the counting from the last vehicle in RandomAction2 would be useful too
15:14:23 <Snail> it would allow to write symmetrical code :)
15:20:49 <Hirundo> While at it, 'count forward from last vehicle in vehid chain' (complement to 0x0C) should be added also
15:21:22 <andythenorth> this new supplies mechanic is *much* harder to explain
15:21:39 <andythenorth> but anyway, I have it showing in industry window text
15:21:58 <Hirundo> I'm not sure if randomact2 bits 4-5 were reserved for any specific purpose?
15:22:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What exactly is the new mechanic? :P
15:22:46 <Snail> Hirundo: what does the "in vehid chain" mean exactly? will it only count the vehicles with the same ID as the current one, skipping the others?
15:22:56 <andythenorth> deliver 30t over a 3 month period for a 2x production boost
15:23:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: don't explain it,let users find out by themselves :)
15:23:07 <andythenorth> deliver 120t over a 3 month period for a 4x production boost
15:23:10 <andythenorth> boost lasts 3 months
15:23:25 <andythenorth> ^ yexo's patch and mine together
15:23:29 <andythenorth> should compile ok
15:23:40 <Hirundo> Snail: It looks at the chain of consecutive vehicles with the same ID (see vehicle var 41 also)
15:23:46 <andythenorth> no translation support (don't translate, it's unfinished) :P
15:32:06 <frosch123> apparently i never typed "deutschland" into youtube before
15:32:18 <frosch123> should i sue them because of the search suggestions? :)
15:33:58 <Alberth> depends on how offended you are :)
15:34:32 <frosch123> i am just surprised, usually they filter nazi stuff
15:34:46 <frosch123> maybe its because of my english locale
15:34:54 <frosch123> sometimes stuff is only filter for german locals
15:35:07 <Hirundo> Using bit 5 might make most sense, to allow future extension of the 'count' to 0-31 bits (though I doubt there is a use-case for that)
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15:37:30 <Snail> Hirundo: what would extending it to 0-31 bits allow us to do? add more features?
15:37:50 <frosch123> Alberth: you mean too hard?
15:38:04 <Hirundo> err, it should be 5 bits, values 0-31
15:38:21 <frosch123> the explicit value only makes sense for small numbers
15:38:26 <frosch123> everything else can use reg 100
15:38:53 <frosch123> but using bit 5 before 4 is still better :)
15:39:11 <frosch123> just keep bits with same meaning consecutive
15:39:34 <Alberth> after 12 years I make about 3,000,000 a year, so I can built a fountain every 3 years or so. But 700,000 plastic is not something I see happening
15:39:59 <frosch123> ah, you are playing with a primary cargo
15:40:06 <frosch123> well, you have to use a basecost mod :)
15:40:24 <Alberth> the second industry is not really relevant imho
15:40:31 <frosch123> the readme suggests to set raw build cost to 1/64 or so
15:40:52 <Alberth> my problem is more the production than the funding cost
15:40:58 <frosch123> yeah, i never tested raw industries
15:41:30 <frosch123> maybe i should remove that :p
15:41:34 <frosch123> might not make a lot of sense
15:41:44 <andythenorth> might for masochists :P
15:41:56 <frosch123> but anyway, you can still set it to 20 industries, with a production of 2000 in total
15:42:48 <Alberth> yeah, I should have lowered the requirements
15:43:01 <andythenorth> deliver supplies :P
15:43:29 <frosch123> the readme still needs lots of suggestions
15:43:30 <Alberth> does firs work in toyland? :)
15:43:51 <frosch123> but i should at least remove the "both types" option
15:43:57 <frosch123> that does really not make any sense :)
15:44:29 <Alberth> hmm, I am not even allowed to read the readme file :p
15:51:57 * andythenorth wonders if openttd should gain a var for base industry prod level
15:52:14 <andythenorth> YetAnotherIndustryProductionFactor
15:52:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Late reply: That ought to help me dispose of those 100k units of supplies more easily :D
15:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r24515 /trunk/src/game/game_text.cpp: -Fix: GStexts were compied incompletely when containing certain string codes.
15:55:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r24516 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [GS] Support ##plural pragma in GS lang files.
16:03:12 <Alberth> frosch123: how often do you check number of industries?
16:04:31 <Alberth> it does not seem to pick up my 2nd fountain
16:04:52 <andythenorth> but we could play test for that later :P
16:05:05 <frosch123> Alberth: is it named after the town?
16:05:28 <Alberth> yep, and the local authority of the land information is correct
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16:05:55 <andythenorth> if I had control of that industry window, it could be made nicer
16:06:08 <andythenorth> "Cargo waiting to be processed" is redundant
16:06:14 <andythenorth> as is the amount of FMSP waiting
16:07:02 <frosch123> you checked the north tile with the landinfo window?
16:08:00 <Alberth> all 3 tiles :) the left one is new btw
16:09:06 <frosch123> would need debugging
16:11:07 <andythenorth> does GS have any way to measure average vehicle speed on a route? Or a proxy for that?
16:11:41 <frosch123> you can access vehicles, and i believe also orders
16:11:53 <frosch123> but esp. with transfers you are likele screwed
16:12:19 <frosch123> i guess dtnames.grf is not important
16:12:32 <frosch123> right mouse button?
16:12:52 <frosch123> not sure whether that is the answer to your question :)
16:13:00 <andythenorth> average travel time of a cargo packet between generation and acceptance?
16:13:27 <frosch123> Kylie: you can also inverse the scrolling direction in advanced settings, whatever suits you more
16:13:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: aka age of the cargo ;)
16:14:06 <frosch123> age of cargo would include the vehicle cargo aging factor
16:14:58 <frosch123> Alberth: it says 2/2 for me :p
16:15:04 <andythenorth> cargo aging might be valid
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16:15:07 <frosch123> did the gs maybe crash at your site?
16:15:12 <andythenorth> thinking of a GS based on travel times
16:15:17 <andythenorth> not sure how it would work yet
16:15:21 <frosch123> is the remaining time still updated?
16:15:42 <Alberth> remaining time seems ok
16:16:13 <frosch123> what version are you using?
16:16:26 <Alberth> my machine crashed, and I had to reload a save game, but that should not be a problem
16:17:55 <Alberth> remaining time is updated
16:19:07 <frosch123> well, if i remove the industry with magic bulldozer it reverts to 1/2
16:19:09 <Alberth> last quarter of total moved does not take the 2nd industry into account
16:19:14 <frosch123> rebuilding in same spots goes to 2/2 again
16:19:35 <frosch123> you can check the debug console for that
16:20:07 <frosch123> it should list the industries with amount > 0
16:21:07 <Alberth> deleting and rebuilding fixes the problem with cheat money :p
16:21:41 <Alberth> load of the save game also fixes it
16:26:17 <Alberth> seems to work correctly
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16:26:54 <frosch123> did you fund a town or something like that? :p
16:27:26 <frosch123> the gs has a cache from industries to town
16:27:37 <frosch123> let's see whether that one fails
16:27:53 <Alberth> that save game is broken in the sense that the dest station of the plastic is not reachable
16:28:19 <frosch123> hmm, i have an indea
16:28:37 <frosch123> i think if you fund the industry within the 5 day period after another industry closed
16:28:45 <frosch123> it does not detect that a industry was removed
16:28:52 <frosch123> and does not update the industry->town cache
16:31:35 <frosch123> yeah, that reproduces the effect :)
16:31:49 <frosch123> so, maybe i should rather cache the location to town mapping
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16:41:17 <andythenorth> maybe primary boost should be per quarter
16:41:24 <andythenorth> e.g. jan-mar, apr-july etc
16:41:31 <andythenorth> is that easier to explain?
16:41:47 <frosch123> it was easier for silicon :p
16:42:33 <andythenorth> "For a production boost in Apr, May and June, deliver 30t (2x) or 120t (4x) of supplies by Mar 31"
16:42:55 <andythenorth> the actual code doesn't work that way afaict
16:42:58 <andythenorth> think it's a moving average
16:43:05 <andythenorth> moving averages are insanely hard to explain
16:43:20 <Alberth> don't try to explain it exactly
16:43:45 <andythenorth> if I don't, players just invent and spread lies :P
16:43:48 <andythenorth> does that matter?
16:44:21 <Alberth> if in doubt, post the code :p
16:44:46 <Alberth> I would not be worried about that, but that's me :)
16:44:59 <andythenorth> I don't actually understand the code :)
16:45:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: you don't have to ;)
16:45:46 <andythenorth> test it later, NoCarGoal, short game, start around 2009, fast everything
16:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you should remove the "Deppenleerzeichen" Goldmedaille, etc.
17:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> same thing applies to whatever you choose for -valley... i don't really have a good idea for that, unfortunately
17:02:45 <frosch123> well, then it stays Valley
17:02:53 <frosch123> i don't change the gs name either :)
17:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> could just do "{CARGO}-Tal" then
17:06:06 <frosch123> would you recognize "Silizium-Tal"?
17:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you still have the GS name :)
17:06:52 <Rubidium> isn't that a valley with sand?
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17:07:18 <frosch123> it's no slicon-di-oxid-valley
17:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that would be a Silizium-Oxid valley
17:08:07 <frosch123> hmm, ok, google gives several hits for "Silizium-Tal" :p
17:08:16 <frosch123> i don't like it nevertheless :p
17:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> don't translate silicon valley, but "Silizium" won't likely be a real cargo in the game
17:10:03 <frosch123> ok, made it {CARGO_LIST}-Tal
17:10:51 <Rubidium> didn't know that one, do you?
17:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "Firmenspezifisch" sounds strange
17:12:04 <frosch123> Rubidium: now i do :p
17:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> are there "Wood Woods"?
17:13:29 <frosch123> what wood would ...
17:14:47 <frosch123> you are missing {P} stuff, aren't you?
17:15:35 <frosch123> it's also new in english, and in ottd trunk :p
17:16:42 <Alberth> hmm, that raises the question what P to use :p
17:19:40 <frosch123> special term for "one", rest the same
17:19:59 <frosch123> STR_QUANTITY_GOODS :{COMMA} krat{P "" ten} goederen
17:20:42 <Alberth> yeah, seems the best choice
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17:25:10 <Alberth> frosch123: file updated
17:31:24 <andythenorth> that should be the name of a GS
17:31:54 * andythenorth just had an idea
17:32:15 <andythenorth> town A wants a lot of cargo x delivered
17:32:24 <andythenorth> but towns B-Z don't want that cargo passing through
17:32:42 <andythenorth> and will fine you if you do transport too much through their territory
17:32:46 <frosch123> build a track from town a to b, every year the gs bulldozes the track, then you have to rebuild it. the same every year for 50 years?
17:34:02 <andythenorth> GS floods part of your map :P
17:35:08 <andythenorth> "Little Dutch Boy" scenario
17:35:14 <andythenorth> your entire map is below sea level
17:35:46 <andythenorth> deliver building materials to towns and they'll raise the land
17:35:54 <andythenorth> terraforming is disabled for player companies
17:39:49 * andythenorth tries to think up something involving smuggling
17:40:10 <andythenorth> probably using warplane-bomb disaster as punishment
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17:41:35 <frosch123> hmm, albert's lang file is rejected by ottd
17:41:39 <frosch123> and i don't see where
17:42:37 <frosch123> it complains about WHITE
17:42:49 <frosch123> dbg: [script] dutch:8: warning: STR_NUM_INDUSTRIES: template string and language string have a different # of commands
17:42:50 <frosch123> dbg: [script] dutch:8: warning: STR_NUM_INDUSTRIES: command 'WHITE' exists in template file but not in language file
17:43:20 <frosch123> oh, there is some {P in the middle
17:44:48 <Rubidium> that translation looks kinda horrid
17:45:07 <Rubidium> but then I always have that feeling with stuff translated to Dutch
17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24517 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt:
17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 23 changes by Eskymak
18:05:38 <andythenorth> connect A-B (opposite sides of map)
18:05:51 <andythenorth> deliver n amount of cargo to each
18:15:34 <Alberth> connecting two industries with each other, and deliver to both?
18:17:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: something like that
18:18:03 <andythenorth> probably cities though
18:18:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you posted that before :)
18:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i did :p
18:22:01 <andythenorth> my german is marginally worse than my C++ :)
18:22:49 <andythenorth> so frosch123 Alberth Hirundo Zuu planetmaker Terkhen et al - NoCarGoal game, test with FIRS nightly?
18:22:52 <andythenorth> maybe FISH nightly too?
18:22:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: MP? :)
18:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually do MP
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18:25:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: prepare a game
18:25:12 <andythenorth> I need a build of FIRS
18:25:31 <frosch123> you can't build it yourself? :p
18:25:32 <andythenorth> k I'll set some stuff up
18:25:37 <andythenorth> the makefile spins
18:25:44 <andythenorth> I can build but only with grfcodec
18:25:59 <andythenorth> the makefile just loops and uses up my battery
18:26:34 <Zuu> andythenorth: Not at the moment. Working on a patch.
18:29:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your buy menu patch isn't accepted yet is it? :)
18:29:21 <andythenorth> FISH looks horrible currently :)
18:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
18:31:59 <frosch123> damn, there is no testcase for {INDUSTRY} with genders :(
18:32:05 <frosch123> and i suspect it fails :p
18:32:21 <frosch123> (resp. the testcase which exists is not triggerable with default industries)
18:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in which context?
18:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it works fine in news messages
18:38:29 <frosch123> there is no such case
18:38:40 <frosch123> STR_NEWS_INDUSTRY_PRODUCTION_INCREASE_GENERAL :{BIG_FONT}{BLACK}{INDUSTRY} {G 0 erhöht erhöht erhöht erhöhen} die Produktion!
18:38:43 <frosch123> that's the only testcase
18:38:50 <frosch123> but it is not triggered for default industries
18:39:01 <frosch123> because only oil wells are plural, and they have a separate text
18:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the construction message? "<industry> opens at <X>"
18:39:30 <frosch123> that is not {INDUSTRY}, but <industry-type>
18:39:59 <frosch123> hmm, i should just add a fake-testcase :o
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18:51:25 <andythenorth> NoCarGoal? Or Silicon Valley?
18:52:15 <Supercheese> New supply algorithm?
18:52:26 <frosch123> there is a silly __MACOSX folder in your zip :p
18:53:13 <andythenorth> Supercheese: yes
18:53:26 <Supercheese> Yexo's from the devzone, yes?
18:53:36 <andythenorth> + industry text from me
18:53:43 <andythenorth> how do I make ships cheap?
18:53:53 <Supercheese> that's the r2873M?
18:53:59 <frosch123> add basecost mod newgrf
18:54:11 <frosch123> you have to set all parameters though
18:54:18 <frosch123> the default are screwed up :p
18:57:15 <Rubidium> so, is there a game starting 'soon'?
18:57:25 <frosch123> andy is preparing a ncg
18:58:01 <frosch123> since the start is usually slow, it seems unwise to wait for more players :)
18:58:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: how long / how much cargo?
18:58:23 <andythenorth> 25k is not enough
18:59:03 <frosch123> last time we had 40k milk in years
19:02:28 <andythenorth> takes a while to get a good map
19:03:40 <frosch123> also disable breakdowns
19:03:48 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 5239016509
19:03:53 <frosch123> else V will flame us again, in case he joins
19:04:06 <frosch123> though we can also change that in game
19:04:07 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: Invalid <number> for base 25: goodmap
19:04:08 <Supercheese> People play with breakdowns enabled??
19:04:32 <frosch123> Supercheese: people who never play but rather run testgames always have completely messed up settings
19:04:34 <Rubidium> people even played 0.3.5 for fun
19:04:49 <frosch123> whenever i want to play a real game i first have to revisit all settings
19:04:51 <Rubidium> as so many things you take for granted don't work
19:05:20 <Rubidium> what rev of OpenTTD are we going to use?
19:06:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: just take whatever map :)
19:06:55 <frosch123> don't wait for easy cargos :p
19:06:57 <andythenorth> I need one that is a test of supplies :P
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19:11:12 <frosch123> bah newgrf mismatch
19:11:40 <frosch123> ah, i forgot rescan
19:11:59 <andythenorth> Rubidium: you'll need patched FIRS posted above
19:12:28 <Rubidium> oh... I though that was a mature version ;)
19:14:22 <Rubidium> where do I get that aviators anniversary set?
19:14:50 <frosch123> that should be bananas
19:15:11 <frosch123> yeah, tb said yesterday he would fix it today
19:16:57 <TrueBrain> but I cant find it :(
19:17:17 <TrueBrain> ottd_content runs on IPv6, it is routed .. it should 'just work'
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19:19:41 <Bad_Brett> Hey... Can someone explain why these coast tiles aren't included in OpenTTD?
19:19:41 <Supercheese> Don't forget the TTD music, a game is never complete without it ;)
19:22:27 <Supercheese> Hah, random generator created a dairy straddling a river
19:22:40 <Supercheese> Just float the milk on barges
19:25:19 <FLHerne> Bad_Brett: Apparently it would break old savegames :P
19:26:41 <FLHerne> IIRC, the argument was that it would look inconsistent for water to flow down those gaps and not go somewhere at the other end, and if it did flow out the far end it might flood areas that were previously non-flooded. Or something. ;-)
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19:37:55 <FLHerne> Bad_Brett: Personally, I think that the inconsistency of water not flowing out of those channels would be less ugly (or at least occur less frequently) than the current situation of them staying dry... ;-)
19:43:08 <Bad_Brett> I agree. Such inconsistencies don't bother me at all. But I guess they want to keep the game 100% glitch-free. Too bad that I can't use the sprites I made, though.
19:53:27 <Supercheese> You can code them as object tiles
19:53:38 <Supercheese> So they don't go completely to waste
19:56:29 <Bad_Brett> Supercheese: Good idea. I didn't realise you could do that. Thanks!
19:56:40 <Supercheese> You're welcome :)
19:58:01 <Supercheese> btw, Eddi' had a good idea for smoother vehicle movement, at least in theory
19:58:38 <Supercheese> I don't know what variable this "subspeed" is in NML, though
19:59:11 <FLHerne> Doesn't exist yet? :P
19:59:33 <Supercheese> Perhaps, although his post sure made it seem like it existed
19:59:47 <Supercheese> oh, perhaps you meant not in NML
20:00:06 <Supercheese> yes, I expect it isn't a named variable there
20:01:21 <Supercheese> What kind of a "var[0x__, 0, 0x__]" would it be, to be more specific
20:01:51 <Supercheese> (as I don't really understand accessing non-named variables in NML too well)
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20:02:48 * FLHerne rereads the thread, and is no longer convinced either way :P
20:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought i made it clear that i have not checked whether it exists or no
20:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "36 B Fractional part of the current speed" <-- that might be it
20:07:45 <Supercheese> 1A, 1C, 1E, the X,Y, and Z locations were already mentioned, yes?
20:07:56 <Supercheese> I can't seem to find the post, but I recall a dev pointing them out
20:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was what said by Terkhen, i believe. but it probably did not make the split of the topic
20:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> note that 80 is added to these numbers, so it will be 9A, 9C and 9E. and B6 for the subspeed
20:10:11 <Supercheese> There it is, 'twas Hirundo, and they're
20:10:16 <Supercheese> yeah, 9A as was said
20:10:43 <Supercheese> The 80 coming from the vehicle array... size, I suppose?
20:11:17 <Bad_Brett> I can't say I understand what you're talking about, but I appreciate it :)
20:11:28 <Supercheese> TBH, I don't fully understand either :P
20:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> src/newgrf_engine.cpp:758: case 0x36: return v->subspeed;
20:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like it's the right value
20:11:50 <Supercheese> I'll have to make a test grf then
20:12:01 <Supercheese> do I add 80 to the 36?
20:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but don't give anything to my head-calculation skills :)
20:12:26 <Supercheese> right, missed that
20:12:41 <Supercheese> the calculator agrees
20:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i did once spot an error in the professor's slides, where his calculation said "A1 + 01 = A2", but "+" meant bitwise XOR in this context, so it should be "= A0"
20:15:03 <Supercheese> thank heavens for NML templates
20:15:11 <Hirundo> Supercheese: If there's any non-named variable you'd like to use in NML, feel free to request as adding variables is really trivial
20:15:45 <Supercheese> Well, I'm fairly certain this is the first time anyone's thought to use this variable, no?
20:16:09 <Supercheese> but I'll do that, if things pan out :)
20:16:47 <Hirundo> There are like 50 or so variables on the page you linked, most are completely useless for NewGRFs
20:17:52 <Hirundo> They only get added once someone (like you) finds a use-case
20:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, _I_ found the use case :)
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (with some inspiration from Rubidium)
20:19:15 <Supercheese> Have yet to see if it works, of course
20:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds right, yes
20:23:02 <Bad_Brett> If I understand this correctly... Does the vehicle move when speed in km/h + timer reaches 255?
20:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound quite right
20:29:50 <Bad_Brett> Haha. Ok, I'll read your post again. :)
20:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: it could mean what it really, is, but it is ambiguous enough that i don't quite want to say "yes"
20:33:14 <Supercheese> Let's* see if this compiles
20:33:18 <Supercheese> damn enter key and apostrophe
20:33:21 <Supercheese> so close to each other
20:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i do that quite frequently as well :)
20:33:53 <Supercheese> whoops, need to add more bluespace to sprites
20:34:17 <Supercheese> up to... looks like 12 pixels
20:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just flood-fill all white space and you should have enough blue :)
20:34:27 <Bad_Brett> I had a keyboard where they had moved ' to a different spot... I guess they had a good reason :)
20:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the #/' key used to be next to backspace on some older keyboards
20:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> has the drawback that backspace is a normal sized key
20:38:06 <Bad_Brett> I had it below enter, next to shift... worked pretty well
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20:42:25 <Supercheese> Ooh, successful compile
20:42:30 <Supercheese> now to see if it works
20:44:44 <Supercheese> Hmmm, hard to tell
20:44:50 <Supercheese> Everything looks the same so far
20:44:55 <Supercheese> maybe increase vehicle speed
20:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe make different colours for testing purposes
20:46:00 <Bad_Brett> Did you adjust the offsets?
20:46:15 <Bad_Brett> or did you try with different sprites?
20:46:25 <Supercheese> Templated offset adjustment
20:47:57 <Supercheese> Maybe I just did something terribly wrong
20:48:02 <Supercheese> which is entirely possible :P
20:48:59 <Bad_Brett> Or could it be that the sprites can only be drawn after certain events (such as movement or changing direction)?
20:49:11 <Supercheese> I dunno yet, hang on
20:49:52 <Bad_Brett> Ok! Thanks for your effort, I really appreciate it :)
20:51:10 <Supercheese> It doesn't seem to be cycling the spritesets
20:51:19 <Supercheese> perhaps the variables aren't returning correctly
20:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Bad_Brett> Or could it be that the sprites can only be drawn after certain events (such as movement or changing direction)? <-- i said something like that on the forum
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20:52:28 <Supercheese> Where's the documentation on NML's var[] stuff?
20:52:55 <Supercheese> accessing other variables
20:53:07 <Bad_Brett> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, you did. I give you full credit for my comment then. :)
20:53:53 * Supercheese has absolutely no idea what <shift> and <mask> mean
20:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> shift should be 0 most of the time, and mask 0xFF to 0xFFFFFFFF depending on the width of your variable
20:54:58 <Supercheese> Ok, what is a mask, then?
20:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> shift and mask are for sieving out bitstuffing
20:55:12 <Supercheese> not related ti bitmask()?
20:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> kinda the reverse
20:55:39 <Supercheese> extracting from an already masked?
20:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> like if a variable is of the form 0xAABBCCDD, then you can extract AA only by setting shift to 24 and mask to 0xFF
20:56:58 <Supercheese> That... kinda of makes sense
20:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want BBCC then you set shift to 8 and mask to 0xFFFF
20:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need any of that here
20:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a "clean" variable of byte size, so shift 0 and mask 0xFF
20:58:55 <Supercheese> I've just never really understood what those were, thanks for explaining :)
21:03:15 <Supercheese> Yeah, it doesn't appear to be changing spritesets at all
21:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what if you take a speed like 192?
21:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and test with differently coloured sprites, like i suggested
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21:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if it changes colour, then the basic variable works
21:05:01 <Supercheese> I'm using the sprite aligner to find sprite numbers, and they're not changing
21:05:15 <Supercheese> I figured they'd change if the sets were
21:05:28 <Supercheese> but colors is indeed more visible
21:08:09 <Rubidium> subspeed != progress
21:09:29 <Rubidium> that they are not the same, yes I'm quite sure of that
21:10:31 <Hirundo> Speed being equal to position would make little sense indeed
21:11:09 <Rubidium> subspeed and progress are similar though; both are the fractional part of some other (set of) variable(s)
21:12:01 <Bad_Brett> so what is subspeed then?
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21:13:50 <Rubidium> 1 subspeed is 1/256 speed
21:14:32 <Rubidium> you add accel to subspeed, the overflow; floor(subspeed / 256) is added to the speed, the remained becomes the new subspeed
21:14:55 <Rubidium> accel is either a constant or calculated by the physics code
21:15:29 <Rubidium> basically speed + subspeed is a 24 bit fixed point number
21:15:59 <Bad_Brett> So in other words, it can't be used to control animations? :(
21:16:21 <Supercheese> Well, the switch *is* working
21:16:28 <Supercheese> the new test has flashing colors
21:16:54 <Supercheese> Now I have to figure out why it apparently wasn't earlier
21:17:02 <Supercheese> and/or if these are just random flashes
21:17:10 <Hirundo> Problem is that AFAIK the graphics are only updated if the vehicle actually moves, which happens 16x per tile
21:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that is not how i remember subspeed being documented in the code, though
21:17:49 <Hirundo> Or less, if the vehicle moves more than one unit at the time (>128km/h-ish)
21:17:50 <Bad_Brett> Yep... that's what I was afraid of...
21:18:16 <Supercheese> Hmm, seems pretty jumpy still
21:18:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: which documentation, where?
21:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that was quite a while ago. and might have been "canonical documentation" :p
21:20:17 <Supercheese> So, apparently even if I have different offsets and the switch works, it still won't result in less jumpy movement, as the graphics can't be updated any faster
21:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: well, that might be worth a patch
21:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it should not be too difficult to invalidate the cache every tick
21:21:04 <Supercheese> patching OTTD is out of my league, unfortunately
21:21:20 <Rubidium> that kinda defaults the purpose of a cache though :(
21:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: shouldn't be more than 3 LOC
21:21:30 <Supercheese> although I suppose I should at least try before saying that definitively :P
21:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, it still helps with scrolling and stuff
21:21:43 <Supercheese> tortoiseSVN works for grabbing source, yes?
21:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> especially while paused
21:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and since most vehicles move every tick, unless they are standing still, it should not have such a big impact (imho)
21:23:53 <Supercheese> Oh right, I have to actually compile after grabbing source
21:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: yes, you can use tortoisesvn
21:23:59 <Supercheese> it doesn't magically put itself together :P
21:24:01 <Rubidium> IMHO you should only invalidate it when it makes sense to do so
21:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: there are compile guides on the wiki
21:24:19 <Rubidium> i.e. do not do it when the vehicle isn't moving
21:24:22 <Supercheese> I've just never bothered due to the complexity
21:24:27 <Supercheese> but time to buckle down and figure it out
21:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and "a variable that is exposed to NewGRFs changed" is not "making sense"?
21:25:17 <Rubidium> in that case we better just trash the cache
21:25:23 <Supercheese> How large is the source, couple hundred megabytes?
21:25:26 <Rubidium> as the date_fract changes every tick
21:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: dozen, i think
21:25:47 <Supercheese> shouldn't take too long then
21:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: the compiler setup however...
21:26:19 <Rubidium> Supercheese: depends on whether you checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk or just svn://svn.openttd.org
21:26:35 <Supercheese> checked out trunk, looks like 8.45 mbytes
21:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: note that the checkout itself may be significantly larger
21:27:20 <Supercheese> heh, ten times that on disk
21:27:29 <Supercheese> still, 80 mbytes is small
21:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> my trunk checkout is 555MB
21:32:13 <Supercheese> Yeah, this VC++ installation is gonna take a while
21:32:22 <Supercheese> good old Micro$oft
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21:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll retire.
21:44:28 <Supercheese> My sister about fell out of her chair laughing
21:44:42 <NGC3982> There is actually a lot of stuff in TNG+DS9 that resembles new technology.
21:44:48 <NGC3982> Like the information pads.
21:45:03 <NGC3982> Hm, i can't remember what episode that comes from.
21:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember that picture, but can't quite place the scene into context
21:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> episode titles say nothing to me
21:51:46 <Supercheese> oh sheesk which Platform SDK to download
21:54:44 <garogolun> I can't remember that I ever needed Platform SDK
21:54:57 <Supercheese> yeah, I'mma try without it first
21:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> since all the directmusic crap is just legacy code, newest SDK should be fine
21:56:35 <Supercheese> bleh, all sorts of stuff intercepted by my program execution defense
22:00:07 <Supercheese> Err, where's the error window...
22:00:27 <NGC3982> I miss Star Trek TNG.
22:00:42 <NGC3982> Im on DS9 now, and it's great. But it's not the same. :/
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22:10:17 <Supercheese> Well, hey look at that, OTTD compiled
22:10:22 <Supercheese> that was... rather easy, actually
22:11:21 <Supercheese> massive thanks to everyone who set up the project files
22:11:35 <Supercheese> basically turns compiling into a point and click process for downstream users :)
22:11:51 <Supercheese> oh, and the wiki editors
22:11:56 <Supercheese> quite helpful as well
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22:17:00 <Supercheese> Well, now I guess I should learn how to make patches
22:17:06 <Supercheese> now that stuff compiles
22:18:07 <BadBrett> How do you apply a patch? Can it be attached to a NewGRF or does it affect the entire game?
22:18:15 <Supercheese> You have to compile OTTD
22:18:18 <Supercheese> like I just got working
22:18:27 <Supercheese> it's not that hard at all, really
22:19:43 <BadBrett> So in order to get this to work, you need to download a patched version of the game?
22:19:58 <BadBrett> Or can the patch be downloaded seperately?
22:20:01 <Supercheese> If you want to use patches, you either download a precompiled, prepatched .exe
22:20:14 <Supercheese> or download the patch AND the source code and apply the patch and compile yourself
22:20:26 <Supercheese> the first option is waaaaaaaaaay easier
22:20:32 <Supercheese> but the second isn't that bad either
22:20:51 <Supercheese> what "this" are you wanting to work anyway?
22:21:46 <BadBrett> smooth movement, curved tracks, that kind of things
22:21:56 <Supercheese> well, someone has to write a patch for that first
22:22:07 <Supercheese> oh sweet, now I can up the max NewGRF limit in any revision
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22:22:34 <Zuu> Supercheese: And make your save games incompatible with trunk :-)
22:22:36 <Supercheese> now to find the ritght .cpp file
22:23:38 <BadBrett> The question is... can patches be used in multiplayer (if all players have the same patched version of the game that is)
22:23:52 <Supercheese> as long as the patch doesn't break multiplayer
22:24:11 <Supercheese> there's a very active multiplayer community using Chill's Patchpack
22:39:19 <BadBrett> this is quite the dilemma... ox carts moving 5 mph will look really stupid with the current version... on the other hand, patching the game means that it will be harder for people to actually try the mod
22:39:40 <Supercheese> c'est la bleeding edge
22:40:05 <Supercheese> boldly going where no OTTDer has yet gone
22:40:41 <Supercheese> do you have an ox cart rendered?
22:41:11 <Supercheese> well, I'm sure when you do it'll look awesome
22:41:16 <Supercheese> your graphics are really good :D
22:41:37 <BadBrett> i intend to make some for heavy freight
22:42:33 <BadBrett> i'm thinking of replacing the road depot with a stable or something like that
22:43:05 <Supercheese> yeah, that'd be neat
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22:47:43 <BadBrett> i see now that you have made some awesome eye-candy vehicles
22:48:51 <Supercheese> as credited in the readme, though, I use renders from models on Google 3D warehouse
22:48:59 <Supercheese> so I do not claim full credit for the base model
22:49:11 <Supercheese> just the adaptation to OTTD
22:49:35 <Supercheese> yay, 75 newgrfs loaded
22:49:40 <BadBrett> well they are really nice anyway
22:50:11 <BadBrett> i guess you still need an AI (or buy them manually) to make them work?
22:50:29 <Supercheese> They're designed to work with the excellent TownCars AI
22:50:39 <Zuu> BadBrett: While you have a point that it would look better if movement was smoth at 4x zoom, I'm sure your graphics will be stunning and look really great in most cases. And for game play, I'm sure at least I will not go to 4x level other than for looking at the details.
22:50:40 <Supercheese> Zuu did a smashing job with that :D
22:50:54 <Supercheese> (speak of the devil ;))
22:51:06 <Supercheese> didn't smiley correctly
22:51:49 <BadBrett> Cool! Does the AI build road depots?
22:51:59 <Supercheese> It must, in order to build RVs
22:52:38 <BadBrett> I wonder if it would be possible to change the look of their depots... you know, turn them into a parking garage/fire station etc.
22:53:09 <Supercheese> Hmm, depends on which variables are available when deciding graphics
22:54:22 <Zuu> TownCars does remove the depots after it have built the cars.
22:54:50 <Zuu> There is also a fork StreetTraffic that leave the road depots around to allow cars to service.
22:55:02 <Supercheese> The modern TTRS depots look kinda like emergency station depots though
22:55:14 <BadBrett> Zuu: Thanks a lot! I personally think that my scenario should be played on the 2x zoom level since everything moves more slowly than in the standard game. I think the biggest problem will be with ox carts and other very slow "vehicles".
22:56:31 <BadBrett> Zuu: I've got to try TownCars now
22:58:14 <Zuu> BadBrett: If your NewGRF have a callback thet is called every tick, and it knows the last tick when the vehicle was moved and the velocyty it had then, then you might be able to use a counter to keep moving in the same velocity as before? (having said that, I haven't written a single NewGRF so it might be that to do that, you need some additional values from OpenTTD)
22:58:36 <Supercheese> we've been discussing stuff like that
22:58:45 <Supercheese> it's quite the difficult subject...
22:59:08 <Zuu> That would need less storage than increesing the precision of the coordinate system, but will sure get messy :-)
22:59:31 <BadBrett> yep. my idea was to simply mess with the offsets, but obviously it was not that simple
23:02:56 <BadBrett> Hmm... I'm trying out TownCars but he doesn't seem to build any cars. Any idea why?
23:03:09 <Supercheese> What other GRFs do you have?
23:03:22 <Supercheese> Generic Cars? Eyecandy Vehicles?
23:03:48 <BadBrett> do i need them as well?
23:04:02 <BadBrett> stupid me... it's only an AI
23:04:17 <Supercheese> it can't build cars if you can't build them either ;)
23:07:07 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
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