IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-13
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01:05:01 <V453000> does anyone have an idea what is "full power only under 25kV" supposed to mean in dutch train set?
01:46:21 <Pinkbeast> V453: different electriciation schemes?
01:47:00 <V453000> there is only one el rail
01:47:14 <V453000> or is it related to the engines anyhow?
01:56:53 <Pinkbeast> There's multiple electrification schemes in some track newgrfs: or it could be an electric with a small diesel engine - there's one in UKRS2
01:57:23 <V453000> I assume that is to come with dutch trackset
01:57:24 <michi_cc> V453000: You're supposed to use the dutch track set as well.
01:57:51 <V453000> why isnt it in the train set if it is required ..
01:58:02 <V453000> if you basically cant use the train set alone
01:59:34 <michi_cc> If they coded it sanely, plain elrail will count for maximum power.
02:00:28 <V453000> in a game without d. track set trains have reduced power ... the 25kV trains that is
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05:56:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I had the idea that industry grfs might also ship a metadata file
05:56:48 <andythenorth> config file format or such, providing each industry's labour requirement, type of industry etc
05:56:59 <andythenorth> *not* in the grf, by design
05:57:31 <andythenorth> GS would be able to use it. GS authors would also be able to substitute a modified metadata file
05:58:14 <andythenorth> might be a stinky idea, don't know. But I think some kind of indirection is needed to do anything interesting.
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07:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what would a meta-file achieve that a newgrf property can't?
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07:14:42 <NGC3982> Morning, people and aliens.
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07:44:22 <TrueBrain> how did you know I was an alien?
07:44:30 <TrueBrain> that is suppose to be a secret dammit
07:46:13 * NGC3982 actually refered to PM but thanks for the new information.
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07:52:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: GS author / scenario author can't modify the newgrf to suit their purposes
07:52:30 <andythenorth> doesn't require maintaining the newgrf tools to understand new props?
07:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea
07:55:48 <__ln__> good morning all and the swedes
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09:40:30 <Terkhen> hi peter1138 and telanus1
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10:11:52 <szaman> let me guess, he doesn't have facebook account? :]
10:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a facebook account...
10:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid of facebook
10:17:20 <szaman> and you're not afraid of CIA?
10:18:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm more afraid of facebook than of CIA
10:18:44 <Markk> Because we don't live in the US and A.
10:18:58 <szaman> we're all americans today
10:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, the CIA can't get active within the USA, only outside
10:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what they have FBI and NSA for
10:19:50 <Markk> And they collect a huge amount of data about us anyway, don't they?
10:19:52 <szaman> facebook is active worldwide, so CIA
10:20:10 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly, through NSA.
10:21:50 <drush> I already have enough automated telemarketers calling me during work hours
10:22:11 <drush> I don't need Turdenberg to sell my dox to anyone more
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10:34:58 <drush> pretty good, advancing the build, but not there yet
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10:44:36 <drac_boy> thinking about maybe working a bit on the grf this week but will have to see
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11:21:32 <NGC3982> What kind of country still allows automated telemarketing?
11:25:35 <__ln__> in what way automated?
11:25:59 <szaman> in poland sometimes phone rings, you answer, and then you wait for caller, i don't know anyone who waited enough to hear the caller :P
11:31:33 <peter1138> Got to love IO wait. Got an 8 core 8GB machine crawling due to an rsync...
11:34:28 <peter1138> Network doesn't block other stuff.
11:35:05 <szaman> there must be something wrong with the driver
11:35:51 <szaman> or, you use 2.x linux kernel :]
11:36:20 <peter1138> No, it's just slow disks.
11:36:34 <Warod> why do you use slow disks!? ;P
11:36:46 <szaman> maybe this is rsync to tapes :]
11:36:47 <peter1138> While having a huge block of data to write, it'll be slower loading data off it, of course.
11:38:28 <peter1138> Warod, because they're 2TB drives, and, if they exist, 15k SAS versions of those will be $lots.
11:39:19 <Warod> Well, if you're using slow drives on purpose, I see no point complaining about it. ;)
11:39:34 <NGC3982> __ln__: I don't know, but i guess drush refered to autodialer systems.
11:40:09 <Warod> I suffer from small HDD space on my laptop on purpose.. Because I can live with 120 GB of HDD on my laptop. But NOT with waiting stuff to happen all the time.
11:40:11 <peter1138> Just idly mentioning.
11:40:16 <szaman> Warod: it wasn't complaining, it was expresing love :]
11:40:28 <peter1138> FWIW, the machine is overspecced CPU & RAM wise as that's what I had available...
11:40:59 <peter1138> Warod, then you want SSD?
11:41:19 <Warod> Windows VM boots in like... 10 seconds. :>
11:41:38 <peter1138> And yeah, I know having the OS on the 2TB drives as well as the data is a bit silly, but, hey, there are only 2 drive slots.
11:41:58 <peter1138> Normally you'd have a couple of small fast drives for the OS and delegate the rest to a SAN.
11:42:32 <Warod> If this MBP was my own, I'd throw out the optical drive and put second HDD in.
11:42:54 <Warod> But that'd ruin the warranty, so...
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14:37:47 <agaran> hello, i patched 1.2.1 with acs patch (with some effort it applied), but now it complains that savefiles are broken, how i can figure why as patch itself didnt added anything to savefiles at least not from looking into sources unless settings.ini changes change savefiles
14:38:45 <agaran> s/acs/atc/ one letting second train to slowdown to speed of first train to eliminate bad looking start/stop sequence when faster train follow slow one
14:38:51 <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: is that possible to fix it somehow?
14:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make it load your old savegames, but savegames you make with this version will (probably) never work in a newer version with or without the patch
14:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> to do that, you have to increase SAVEGAME_VERSION (in saveload.cpp or so) and put that new version in the "from" field of the added setting
14:40:43 <agaran> i see, blah, so in order to get anything useable in future i need to get patch put to release somehow or forget
14:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it is theoretically possible to make this more flexible, so with some work you can update the version without losing your savegames, but this is way more complicated
14:42:53 <agaran> so any patch that causes changes in settings.ini ruins this?
14:43:41 <agaran> so whole point of patching goes /dev/null for me then, unless local copy for toying moment or two.. bad
14:44:24 <agaran> anyway that train slow to speed of previous one works fine on release (plus/minus patch aplying by hand when necesary)
14:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, the whole setting system is only prepared for linear development
14:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not optimal, but it's what we got
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14:46:34 <agaran> just hoped there is workaround for that
14:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why my level crossing patch has no setting change intentionally
14:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> even though it could use one
14:48:22 <agaran> i see, so forcing it always-on fixes problem by eliminating settings?
14:48:35 <agaran> setting is used to enable/disable this feature
14:49:23 <agaran> ok, thats way to go then for me :-)
14:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also make the setting "not stored in savegames"
14:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it'S one of the flags
14:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's in the config file only
14:50:02 <agaran> hmm, that plus making it on by config file is fine as well
14:50:32 * Rubidium hopes agaran doesn't use public multiplayer servers with that build
14:50:47 <agaran> Rubidium: how i can append something to version to get mismatch?
14:51:13 <agaran> hmm, right, i need 2 compilations with different directory names/binary names
14:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it does that automatically for trunk checkouts, but i don't know for releases
14:51:51 <Rubidium> it'll probably work for a proper tag checkout
14:52:13 <agaran> ised tarball since i had it locally, easier to modify .spec and add %patch10 -p1 ...
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15:02:51 <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE :-)
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15:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> agaran: there's also a "in network save only" flag, that may be a little safer :)
15:08:30 <agaran> i dont play over network yet, wanted to try some patches i like, mostly because i wanted to find way to sort trains by reachable speed, but seems there is no patch for that
15:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a very ancient speed signs patch
15:09:00 <agaran> and using tracks and signals you can sort by length, but not speed to my knowledge, unless one make ff from logic train and speed detector etc
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15:09:33 <agaran> i rather wanted to direct fast trains (ie empty not necesarly short) to one way of 2x2 lane, and rest to second
15:11:34 <agaran> another one patch i just tested is signals on bridge heads/tunel heads
15:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the one that doesn't work with path signals and thus is totally useless (for me)?
15:12:52 <agaran> yes, it dont work, and yes, i use patch signals, but it at least is move in good direction isn't?
15:13:01 <agaran> is there any other one?
15:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but that one definitely changes savegames...
15:13:30 <agaran> well, its settings doesnt
15:13:49 <agaran> i just wanted to try them with my saves, not to save with them then load back in not patched
15:24:03 <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: found solution (few years old) to my problem, route markers..
15:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i did say ancient :p
15:25:52 <agaran> well, but at least from description it looks like what i want, i can toy with making cpu from trains, but not when i want trains not cpu.. i can solder cpu from ttl chips on my workbench instead, or write one in verilog..
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15:40:30 <agaran> hmm if in forum thread is more updated version of patch than attached in flyspray?
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15:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> agaran: do you trust that someone who updated the patch?
15:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you moved southwards?
15:45:47 <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: well no idea
15:54:02 <keyy> im trying to make my dedicated server
15:54:32 <keyy> and im wondering how to make goals and scripts for !cv !goal etc...
15:54:48 <keyy> can anyone give me some clues?
16:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> those scripts are an external program that listens to the chat
16:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> search for "autopilot"
16:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (does not include goals)
16:01:47 <__ln__> keyy: yes, free clue: please use apostrophes.
16:02:50 <keyy> thank you, im going to look for autopilot, and about goals what should i look 4?
16:15:19 <TrueBrain> this is not texting .. you can type 'for' .. it are not that many letters ;)
16:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "it are" doesn't really work either :)
16:17:07 <TrueBrain> that is merely a Dutch person wanting to type english; so stfu :P
16:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just strategically unwise to make mistakes while correcting others :)
16:20:08 <keyy> funny someone using "stfu" is against me using 4 :)
16:20:12 <TrueBrain> well, mister smartypants, if you bothered to read what I complained about, you would know it is not about the correct spelling and usage of english ;)
16:21:10 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: see it as purposely showing the spelling is not important; the lazyness is ;) (hehe, I wonder if I can talk myself out of it .. :P)
16:21:38 <keyy> not sure about that m8 :P
16:21:43 <TrueBrain> keyy: seriously, last warning
16:21:54 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: wtf r u tlkng 8bout, do u e4n no english?
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16:22:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you do understand I now have to kick you, else I am considered 'unfair' and 'biased', right?
16:22:24 * andythenorth needs a shower anyway
16:22:33 <andythenorth> kick me, I have stuff to do :P
16:22:41 <andythenorth> you'll be helping me out ;)
16:22:44 <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth have a nice shower :D
16:22:44 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (have a nice shower :D)
16:23:49 <keyy> sorry i was wrong it is not openttd channel, it is english learning channel
16:24:25 <TrueBrain> no, this is IRC, not a texting service where everything has to fit in 160 chars; but take it how ever you like, I don't really care :)
16:25:05 <keyy> so explain me what is the difference between using "4" and "stfu"?
16:26:17 <KenjiE20> stfu is an acronym, 4 is a numbe
16:27:02 <keyy> i used "4" not as a number
16:27:16 <keyy> so i dont take your answer :)
16:27:46 <keyy> it is like saying "stfu" is four letters
16:33:49 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
16:34:04 <TrueBrain> owh, someone already did that, how cute :)
16:34:28 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r24464 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt slovak.txt) (2012-08-12 17:45:13 UTC)
16:34:29 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
16:34:30 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
16:34:31 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: slovak - 19 changes by klingacik
16:35:18 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
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17:00:17 <andythenorth> are there older changelogs online?
17:00:26 <andythenorth> for stable releases?
17:00:57 <andythenorth> can't find them :P
17:02:50 <TrueBrain> we kinda keep everything :P
17:05:11 <frosch123> you can also check the wiki
17:05:43 <frosch123> users filter the changelog there for what they consider noteable :p
17:06:44 * Rubidium ponders going through the wiki and marking most if not all pages with: is this notable? [source needed] and such
17:06:51 <frosch123> anyway, trunk changelog contains everything
17:07:18 <frosch123> hmm, actually... 1.2 branch changelog might be better
17:07:27 <Rubidium> so does changelog.txt of your stable release for the releases before that
17:10:07 <frosch123> "- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
17:45:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24465 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt slovak.txt turkish.txt):
17:45:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:45:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: slovak - 5 changes by klingacik
17:45:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: turkish - 78 changes by otrkmen
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18:13:59 <andythenorth> did anyone figure out New Economy while I was in la la land?
18:15:55 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:15:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:16:07 <andythenorth> Alberth has joined us
18:16:09 <TrueBrain> and good morning Alberth
18:16:17 <TrueBrain> those 2 remarks have no relation btw, just for the record
18:16:19 <andythenorth> Alberth probably went to la la land too
18:16:43 <Alberth> hi TrueBrain, andythenorth
18:17:05 <Alberth> if 'work' is part of la la land, yep
18:17:14 <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: you asked if i trust one who updated patch, it was Vaulter who updated to r24376, and nobody in forum thread complained about it ;)
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18:21:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: sorry, have not seen any of them
18:22:33 <Alberth> I did have a thought about bypassing the slow increment stuff as suggested by Eddi yesterday; what if the missing industry type appears to be unbuildable?
18:26:25 <andythenorth> define unbuildable? :)
18:28:55 <Alberth> trying to build an instance fails?
18:29:37 <andythenorth> it's valid if it happens once
18:29:43 <andythenorth> if it happens n times?
18:30:11 <andythenorth> I'm tempted to say that newgrf author has screwed up in that cae
18:30:23 <andythenorth> but map congestion could cause that issue
18:30:26 <andythenorth> what's the cost / risk?
18:33:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: you might have missed the discussion about cb for total number of industries a grf thinks should be on map
18:35:03 <Alberth> the risk is that the system only tries to build that missing industry
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18:38:01 <andythenorth> does similar happen if I return a very high probability to cb22?
18:38:02 <agaran> are there some intro/FAQ question about patch submision/including to trunk rules?
18:38:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: we seem to have had some discussion about total number of industries about 12 hours - 30 minutes ago
18:39:05 <andythenorth> proposal was a 'global' cb to the newgrf
18:39:11 <Alberth> trunk has a back-off mechanism that progressively makes the industry less available for trying to build
18:39:33 <andythenorth> also you were here for most of industry number discussion iirc
18:39:56 <Alberth> depends on what you discussed in the last 12 hours :p
18:40:24 <Alberth> agaran: there is a code style page if that's what you mean
18:41:14 <Yexo> agaran: basically: coding style has to be perfect (see wiki page for that), patch has to have clear goal, has to be easy enough to review
18:41:53 <Yexo> if it fixes a bug, it's very easy to get in, new features a bit harder because you might get a discussion whether or not the feature fits OpenTTD
18:42:25 <agaran> i rather was refering to abandoned patches, but seems its not very good time investment to try to make them running
18:42:58 <Yexo> might be, depends on the patch
18:43:04 <Alberth> agaran: many patches are tooooooo big and/or too unfocussed
18:43:26 <Yexo> sometimes it really pays of to simply restart instead of trying to update the old patch
18:43:32 <agaran> Alberth: ones i tried today (for first time patching ottd itself) are rather short ones
18:43:51 <agaran> (like automated train control speed limit patch, which is like few kb whole diff size)
18:44:29 <Yexo> but that's probably (not sure, have never looked at it) a very difficult one to test
18:44:36 <Alberth> agaran: iirc that one does look ahead by itself?
18:44:44 <Yexo> ie make sure it always works properly, has no unexpected behavior, etc.
18:45:23 <agaran> so all code on trunk has same quality, ie, is always verified and perfect if you require all patches to meet that level?
18:45:37 <Yexo> of course it isn't perfect, but we try to make it so ;)
18:46:03 <Yexo> and then there is old code of dubious quality, but again we try to update it
18:46:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: at 20.07 in the log we talked a bit more about cb
18:46:28 <andythenorth> then about town effect industries
18:47:00 <andythenorth> then it was time for sleep :P
18:47:20 <Alberth> did anything of interest arise from that?
18:48:14 <Alberth> agaran: there are also patches filled with "// XXX fixme" comments. Somewhere you have to draw a line
18:48:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: the usual :)
18:48:24 <andythenorth> I had silly ideas
18:48:28 <agaran> Alberth: of course, i understand that
18:49:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24466 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_content.cpp core/tcp_content.h network_content.cpp): -Codechange [FS#5236]: add general function for ContentType -> Subdirectory conversion (LordAro)
18:50:52 <agaran> Yexo: from code all i can see, is in worst case not working speed limiting, so not worse than no patch at all, but i dont know internals to check if how stuff is used is correct.
18:50:57 * andythenorth kind of wonders 'less talk, more code' wrt NoCo :P
18:51:03 <andythenorth> but two things fail for that
18:51:19 <andythenorth> (1) andythenorth's coding ability (2) not a good way to design interfaces / spec
18:51:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: branch or patch, then test tweaks to industry generation?
18:51:58 <Alberth> 2 needs a NFO spec at least
18:51:59 <andythenorth> I don't have much free time, but I can test patches and such
18:52:19 <andythenorth> how about we see what we can improve without (re)inventing spec?
18:52:42 * andythenorth can even write patches if it's simple :P
18:52:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24467 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange [FS#5236]: make textfile window class slightly more general (LordAro)
18:53:01 <Yexo> agaran: if you already update it, give me a link and I'll take a quick look
18:53:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: do you have a battle plan?
18:53:42 <andythenorth> test the possible one line fix l2666 or such?
18:54:04 <andythenorth> apply it to my current game, as I am about to enter a period where industries need to open
18:54:06 <Alberth> what one-line fix for l2666?
18:54:07 <agaran> Yexo: not posted updated version yet, besides conflict at settings.ini it just applied (and settings.ini i fixed with help of #openttd)
18:54:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: one you and Eddi|zuHause seemed to suggest / agree on? Forcing new types to get built if I understood correctly (possibly not)
18:54:58 <Alberth> I see the need, but no solution yet
18:55:10 <agaran> Yexo: i am recompiling again, if i get something that adhere more to coding-style on wiki, i'll let you know on channel or something
18:55:47 <agaran> also i dig on release not trunk, so probably need fix that part too
18:55:54 <Alberth> also, I am not convinced it's worth the effort at this time, as it just moves the problem from 0 to 1 industries
18:56:38 <andythenorth> something like Alu. chain needs > 1 bauxite mine to make sense
18:56:46 <Yexo> agaran: yes, when you want a patch included always make sure the diff is against trunk
18:57:27 <andythenorth> having the grf return the number of industries needed is ok-ish, at least it's clean
18:57:28 <agaran> Yexo: sure, that not sophisticated requirement unless commits per seconds are too big number
18:57:32 <andythenorth> it puts work on the newgrf author
18:57:44 <andythenorth> and leaves no flexibility in future for GS authors
18:58:02 <Yexo> agaran: a few revisions old doesn't matter, as long as it still applies cleanly
18:58:16 <agaran> Yexo: i smiled of course, i understand
18:58:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: we can't teach game details of an industry set...but could we teach it about chains?
18:58:36 <andythenorth> in abstract, i.e. build this set of industry types in ratio xyz
18:58:55 <Alberth> andythenorth: one industry produces X, another one needs X, seems fine to me
18:59:26 <andythenorth> ach the newgrf can solve this anyway with var 67 and cb22
18:59:27 <Kjetil> also needs a concept of the worth of X
19:01:28 * Kjetil just assumed that the point of teaching game details was to add new industrial chains without changing the source
19:04:19 * andythenorth is going to the pub in a bit to work
19:05:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: this problem starts out looking very simple
19:06:10 <andythenorth> 3 connected problems
19:06:21 <andythenorth> (1) newgrf can do nearly everything it needs to wrt closing, but has no global overview of the state of industries etc, game needs to do that
19:06:47 <andythenorth> (2) newgrf can't influence opening very much (only cb22 probability), so chains aren't completed / new types not built
19:07:27 <andythenorth> (3) game's fixed numbers of industries (per setting in map gen) are for default industries; don't match well to large industry newgrfs
19:07:40 <andythenorth> that's got to be solvable in isolation :P
19:08:13 <andythenorth> it only gets horribly complicated when I try to find a useful interface between GS and newgrf, without breaking too much of what we have
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19:13:28 <Alberth> have GS control the game mechanisms instead?
19:13:50 <drac_boy> still talking about industries again?
19:14:44 <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, having GS control the game mechanisms is a big +lots from me
19:14:56 <andythenorth> but then how much do you change newgrf spec to permit that?
19:15:17 <andythenorth> anyway, I can't solve it, and soon the crowd will start throwing peanuts
19:15:27 <andythenorth> if we could solve 1, 2, 3 above, I'd go away and be quiet :P
19:16:03 <andythenorth> users are quick to suggest features, but then when spec is being worked out, they throw peanuts
19:16:07 <andythenorth> it's kind of tiresome :P
19:17:02 <agaran> is --prefix-dir=... sufficient to get all trunk compiled installed there?
19:17:37 <Alberth> I never bother to install
19:17:47 <agaran> Alberth: o, thats even better
19:18:08 <agaran> TrueBrain: i have read to find --prefix-dir in place of usual --prefix by autoconf..
19:18:21 <TrueBrain> well, the text behind it says exactly what it does :)
19:18:30 <agaran> andythenorth: thank you
19:18:40 <agaran> TrueBrain: didnt worked as i expeted from reading help thus asked here..
19:18:55 <andythenorth> agaran: I didn't answer your question :)
19:18:56 <Alberth> agaran: make the data files findable by all installs, and then just "cd bin ; ./openttd" or "make run"
19:19:00 <andythenorth> just suggested an alternative
19:19:07 <TrueBrain> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
19:19:12 <agaran> andythenorth: you gave usefull alternative, thats handy
19:19:22 <TrueBrain> your question and the help do not give any room for an answer ..
19:19:40 <agaran> TrueBrain: yup, and make install failed at impossibility to create //<somedirs> where it was compiled with prefix-dir set to ~/opt/openttd-trunk/
19:20:14 <Alberth> agaran: ~ is a shell thing, use $HOME instead
19:20:16 <TrueBrain> so your question was jus tunrelated to your problem, great :)
19:20:35 <agaran> TrueBrain: you always are so kind or just that especially for me?
19:20:49 <TrueBrain> lately we have a lot of people who ask that was it clearly documented
19:21:03 <TrueBrain> if you just said your issue from the start, this conversation would never have happened :)
19:21:12 <agaran> Alberth: i know, some apps cope with ~ well
19:22:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: 1,2, 3 seems like a good goal to me
19:22:27 <agaran> TrueBrain: yes, will remember to not ask you
19:22:30 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24468 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Add [FS#5219]: API compatibility scripts for Goal Scripts (Hirundo)
19:22:37 <TrueBrain> @kban agaran 300 now you are rude
19:22:37 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~agaran@static-78-8-120-176.ssp.dialog.net.pl
19:22:38 *** agaran was kicked by DorpsGek (now you are rude)
19:23:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: before patching any game I could just try returning highest value for probability to cb22
19:23:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: for random suggestions, smooth economy for ind newgrfs?
19:23:49 <andythenorth> you mean, use that setting? Or change something?
19:24:16 <Alberth> make newgrfs aware of it was my intention :)
19:24:29 <andythenorth> they kind of are via monthly prod. change cb
19:24:30 <Alberth> but likely it is complicated :p
19:25:06 <andythenorth> frosch123 would know better than me, but I thought smooth economy was primarily 'use monthly not random', and then adjust values to suit
19:25:54 <andythenorth> I'll try the cb22 probability adjustment in FIRS soon
19:26:26 <Alberth> I doubt that using high cb22 values has much effect; new industries already have it due to not having any instance at the map
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19:27:19 *** Yexo sets mode: -b *!~agaran@static-78-8-120-176.ssp.dialog.net.pl
19:27:33 <TrueBrain> Yexo: 2 seconds before DorpsGek would? :P
19:27:50 <TrueBrain> what do you think? :P
19:27:54 <Yexo> nvm, not sure what I was thinking :p
19:28:24 <andythenorth> so I have a 512x512 map with 218 industries
19:28:33 <andythenorth> and the default for 'normal' at 256 would be 55
19:28:48 <andythenorth> so I basically have 2 slots, if I've guessed the scaling factor correctly
19:29:21 <andythenorth> and I have 11 types that have 0 instances, due to not being available yet
19:29:48 <andythenorth> and to get meaningful production amounts, ~20 new industries need to be added to the map
19:29:57 <andythenorth> most within next 50 years
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19:30:46 <frosch123> smooth economy is a dead end
19:31:09 <frosch123> it's a hack which modifies production multipliers instead of rate
19:31:32 <andythenorth> scale the rate of changes
19:31:35 <frosch123> you can expose the setting, but you cannot make the code of it useful
19:32:12 <andythenorth> so I only test FIRS with smooth economy enabled, but does that make any real difference?
19:32:27 <frosch123> i would hope some day we can remove that setting, and replace it with a newgrf
19:32:55 <Alberth> frosch123: for my understanding, 10% increase is just keeping production where it is, but multiplying the output with 1.1 ?
19:33:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: smooth economy is disabled if you enable the production callback, or any of the production change callbacks
19:33:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24469 /trunk/bin/game/ (. compat_1.2.nut compat_1.3.nut): -Fix (r24468): forgot to svn add the new files
19:33:35 <TrueBrain> Yexo: owh you fixed that? Awesome :)
19:34:10 <frosch123> "-Feature: Compatibility scripts for windows" ?
19:34:11 <Yexo> my first commits in 5 months
19:34:20 <TrueBrain> and welcome back :P
19:34:33 <TrueBrain> hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail
19:34:36 <frosch123> Alberth: no idea, what you wanted to tell me :)
19:35:45 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you and your features :P We really will see all your commits as Feature now, don't we?
19:36:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: take a look at the 0.1.1 changelog and what was considered a feature back then :p
19:36:13 <Alberth> frosch123: I was asking a question to get a better understanding of what you said about smooth economy being hack-ish, I read it but lack context
19:36:16 <Yexo> <TrueBrain> hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail <- in which way?
19:36:27 <TrueBrain> Yexo: check what is before compat_1.2.nut
19:36:38 <TrueBrain> not sure ... it looks odd
19:36:47 <TrueBrain> frosch123: features ar ein the eye of the beholder
19:37:11 <frosch123> [19:10] <frosch123> "- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
19:37:12 <Yexo> I think that dot is because of "svn add bin/game/"
19:37:26 <TrueBrain> never seen it before :D
19:38:02 * andythenorth explores ChangeIndustryProduction once again
19:38:20 <andythenorth> when I mention that industry_cmd.cpp is full of madness, I do mean this function, amongst others
19:38:31 <andythenorth> so many fricking conditional clauses
19:38:51 <frosch123> Alberth: smooth economy making smaller production changes is one thing; but the problem is that it changes the production of multiple output cargos independently and abuses production multipliers in a way, that makes it completely incompatible with newgrf
19:39:20 <frosch123> maybe we should change smooth economy so that it changes the production multiplier
19:39:32 <andythenorth> or maybe there should just be one economy
19:39:33 <frosch123> gah, and we need better terms than production multipleirs and rates
19:39:44 <frosch123> i messed them up, so i made no sense :p
19:40:06 <TrueBrain> -Feature: better terms for production multipliers and rates
19:40:17 <Alberth> "production multiplier" means absolutely nothing to me :)
19:40:28 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you win the prize for abuse of -Feature
19:40:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: thank you thank you
19:40:52 <andythenorth> frosch123 ideal: we have one economy, but ChangeIndustryProduction is called more or less often. We bin a lot of that conditional code
19:40:55 <frosch123> Alberth: Industry::production_rate vs. prod_level
19:41:03 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it was only on frosch123's request to use it more liberal
19:41:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: 'output' would have made more sense for one of those vars
19:41:48 <andythenorth> prod. multiplier makes complete sense when we use it
19:41:53 <andythenorth> shame the code doesn't use it too :P
19:42:44 <andythenorth> fancy an industry_cmd.cpp refactor?
19:43:08 <Alberth> only if it is a feature :p
19:43:28 <andythenorth> -Feature: removed madness
19:43:35 <andythenorth> -Feature: reduced confusion
19:43:37 <Yexo> -Feature: better code due to a refactor
19:43:51 <TrueBrain> hmm ... map-rewrite ....
19:43:52 <andythenorth> -Feature: used less confusion to agree spec; added new madness
19:45:17 <andythenorth> if (smooth_economy) { [boring silly code] }
19:45:47 <andythenorth> -Feature: rm-ed all code for fewer bugs
19:46:04 <andythenorth> I taught our work irc bot to swear btw
19:46:09 <andythenorth> definitely good use of time
19:46:09 <TrueBrain> I once made a patch for peter, which fixed all bugs
19:46:13 <TrueBrain> he didn't appreciate the patch
19:46:18 <TrueBrain> (it removed everything)
19:46:35 <andythenorth> didn't you once get rid of all the bugs in the repo?
19:46:42 <andythenorth> the repo was bug free for a time?
19:47:13 <andythenorth> where did smooth economy come from?
19:47:16 <Yexo> it certainly wasn't possible to get buggy code out of the repo :p
19:47:45 <andythenorth> does smooth economy do anything that couldn't be substituted by something else, like newgrf?
19:47:58 <andythenorth> or a better way of getting similar result
19:51:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: seems it needs more understanding first :)
19:52:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe it's the place to start for any kind of fixing
19:52:25 <andythenorth> seems we're unhappy with it
19:52:45 <andythenorth> every time I go into industry_cmd.cpp it makes me die a little inside :)
19:53:26 <Alberth> to be sure rip the disk out of your machine, and burn it
19:53:40 <andythenorth> burning doesn't destroy
19:53:46 <andythenorth> need to vaporise the platters
19:54:34 <andythenorth> anyway, I know high loc count can be due to very well-finished code, handling edge cases
19:54:47 <andythenorth> but smooth economy has ~50 loc, and non-smooth has ~3 loc :P
19:55:07 <frosch123> TrueBrain: your patch was way too big to review
19:55:11 <andythenorth> yet we know the results of smooth economy are problematic :P
19:55:52 <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha, it was :D
19:55:56 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anjoy
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20:05:13 <lilleman> Anyone knows of any problems with see through (or actually the lack of) buildings etc on Linux?
20:05:31 <lilleman> Or is it just me that cant handle the GUI well enough? :)
20:05:50 <lilleman> My cities gets huge, and I cant find my bus depots :p
20:07:21 <TrueBrain> X normally makes stuff transparent
20:07:26 <TrueBrain> not OS depending if it works or not
20:07:40 <TrueBrain> so what is the problem exactly?
20:08:16 <lilleman> The buildings just... dont get see through
20:08:57 <lilleman> and make sure "Transparent buildings" are checked
20:09:00 <lilleman> but nothing happends
20:09:08 <TrueBrain> did you enable transparency itself?
20:09:12 <TrueBrain> dunno if that matters tbh
20:09:25 <lilleman> Just because I went into this channel, it works now
20:09:36 <TrueBrain> well, this channel happen to do that
20:09:36 <frosch123> lilleman: press ctrl+x
20:09:42 <TrueBrain> its a magic channel
20:09:52 <lilleman> Thanks for the magic :)
20:18:57 <TrueBrain> okay, I just tried Minecraft 1.3
20:20:41 <lilleman> And, is it possible to clear houses in a city? Or will the authorities always refuse this?
20:21:08 <lilleman> If that is the case, how is one supposed to develope larger city terminals?
20:22:19 <frosch123> lilleman: plant trees to make them happy
20:22:45 <Kjetil> then destroy the trees to punish them!
20:22:55 <frosch123> or provide good service
20:24:49 <Alberth> or build them early in the game
20:27:45 <drac_boy> I've always had Outstanding rating in a short time ... except for sometimes having Good or Poor rating that sticks at small villages I simply had to bypass
20:34:38 <lilleman> Is it possible to see how happy the authorities are?
20:36:31 <drac_boy> lilleman open the dialog for the town ... it'll tell you right there
20:37:54 <drac_boy> usually it starts with Good (which is not shown atm) .. but destroy more than a few small things and it'll drop ... if you get down to Poor you pretty much can't do any constructions anymore within town perimeters
20:38:20 <drac_boy> sometimes you need a higher rating than Good to be able to blow up certain bigger buildings tho (the Stadium sometimes does that too)
20:38:25 <TrueBrain> this game will make you a tree hugger
20:38:32 <TrueBrain> it is our way to promote green
20:40:10 <drac_boy> well I'm already a tree hugger.. I don't build excessive multiply lines and keep locomotives for as long as I can? :P
20:41:52 <TrueBrain> so you use old dirty engines for a long time?
20:41:59 <TrueBrain> over replacing them for a better env-friendly version?
20:42:27 <frosch123> TrueBrain: he's still using horses
20:42:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: their poop is bad for the env
20:43:06 <frosch123> everyone with a garden is hunting after horses to collect their stuff
20:43:10 <drac_boy> frosch123 even real railroads have this problem ... 17 years old class of electric locomotives being replaced by a similar new class .. except that the latter has more thermal problems during winter
20:43:18 <drac_boy> sometimes newer doesn't always mean better
20:44:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: just compare yourself with today's youth
20:44:08 <frosch123> are they better? :p
20:44:22 <TrueBrain> I often want to replace for a newer model
20:44:50 <TrueBrain> (I mean in a legal sense, ofc)
20:46:44 <drac_boy> on the other hand theres diesel re-powering in certain cases both in usa and europe ... eg the EMD SW600 may be a rather old design but to find one still running around with fresh new two 370hp gensets under its hood just goes to show otherwise
20:46:49 <TrueBrain> should I take it as a sign that that page gives me a timeout?
20:46:55 <TrueBrain> which is ironic, given its domain
20:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: ever seen that How I Met Your Mother episode when they asked "what is your newest whisky?" :p
20:47:07 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen them all, but I cannot remember :s
20:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it was exactly about this argument: "Newer is always better"
20:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "so the new star wars films, are they better than the old ones?"
20:48:12 <TrueBrain> PING ping-timeout.de(shell08.ping-timeout.de) 56 data bytes
20:48:13 <frosch123> anyway, replacing tb with a girl sounds like a nice plan
20:48:15 <TrueBrain> --- ping-timeout.de ping statistics ---
20:48:16 <TrueBrain> 5 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 3999ms
20:48:38 <TrueBrain> (IPv6 fails, but they have AAAA record)
20:48:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am all in for that
20:49:04 <TrueBrain> any females who want to volunteer?
20:52:46 <TrueBrain> well, that concludes that quest
20:54:00 <Kjetil> Could probably rent one from bride.ru
20:54:41 <TrueBrain> my roommate was dating a polish girl .. the jokes made ... the jokes made ...
21:02:54 <TrueBrain> I have to write a bot for frosch
21:02:57 <TrueBrain> when he says night, that it replies
21:03:00 <TrueBrain> as ... damn, he is fast
21:03:45 <NGC3982> Someone said bride.ru.
21:03:57 <TrueBrain> you have a highlight there?
21:04:02 <TrueBrain> that is just sick, sorry, but, really?
21:04:12 <NGC3982> Definetly not the channel i first thought of.
21:05:45 <NGC3982> People can complain a lot on my telemarketing business, but selling people is for some reason ok.
21:06:07 <TrueBrain> you own a telemarketing business?
21:06:12 <TrueBrain> you and I need to hav ea talk ....
21:06:26 <TrueBrain> your ... hav eyou ever watched the Seventy show?
21:07:06 <NGC3982> That Seventees show, yes. the Seventy show? Nietskij, comrade.
21:07:34 <NGC3982> (I actually thought you ment something else :P)
21:07:41 <NGC3982> But yes, i have. Lot's of it.
21:07:46 <TrueBrain> I just didn't want to say what I wanted to say :P
21:07:56 <TrueBrain> as it is not really polite to do :P
21:08:57 <NGC3982> Oh, yes. The telemarketing business is greatly strucken by prejudice and "Oh that means you want my dead sons money".
21:09:27 <TrueBrain> all I can think about are the annoying calls
21:09:30 <NGC3982> When it's basicly the word used to define almost everything done by phone.
21:09:48 <TrueBrain> I hate to be called at some off hour to ask me if I want something
21:09:52 <Kjetil> *shoves NGC3982 down the stairs and mumbles something about bringing out the gimp*
21:09:55 <TrueBrain> if I want something, I will come to you, not the other way around :)
21:19:36 <TrueBrain> but no worries NGC3982, we love you no matter what your job is :)
21:20:54 <TrueBrain> and with we I mean I
21:21:18 <TrueBrain> I am waiting for my statis period to end, and it nowhere tells me when exactly
21:30:58 <Rubidium> is Adam online as well?
21:38:16 <NGC3982> I think im going to make a salute hymn to tardigrades.
21:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not parse
21:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never ever had a situation where perl helped me :p
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