IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-02
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00:54:18 <Supercheese_> "local_authority_impact | 0 ... 65525 | amount of happiness increase of the city council, if the building is destroyed "
00:54:27 <Supercheese_> Shouldn't that be DEcrease, not increase?
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03:44:04 <Supercheese> Hehe, test version of WIRES.grf functional!
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04:50:58 <Supercheese> Hmm, what do y'all think the price_factor for electricity should be w.r.t. the other cargos?
04:51:38 <Supercheese> FIRS has stuff from the 70s-100s
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07:32:27 <NGC3982> Bah, ignore on modes, nicks, parts and quits can be annoying.
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08:06:03 <planetmaker> dihedral, how's actually progress with joan and grapes? :-)
08:06:28 <NGC3982> Im about to make first first intraweb site. Any rules i should consider while giving it a version number?
08:06:58 <planetmaker> whatever rule suits you, I'd say
08:07:02 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker :)
08:08:19 <NGC3982> planetmaker: Ah, so there are no particular settings for standard programming?
08:08:43 <planetmaker> do the standards matter if they make you unhappy? ;-)
08:10:35 <Terkhen> major.minor.release works fine, but I don't know any other numbering schemes :P
08:11:48 <NGC3982> x.x.x allows 729 changes, right?
08:11:59 <planetmaker> Terkhen, in that case openttd does it wrong. As major and minor are about the same meaning ;-)
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08:12:30 <Terkhen> but we have 0.x.x and 1.x.x
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08:12:50 <planetmaker> but what will constitute 2.x.y?
08:12:51 <NGC3982> im not planning on using major or minor updates.
08:12:56 <Terkhen> NGC3982: you can of course do stuff like 0.1.10
08:13:05 <NGC3982> im simply going to add one after every update.
08:13:10 <planetmaker> 0.1.A for geeks ;-)
08:13:18 <NGC3982> after 0.9.9 comes 1.0.0, etc.
08:13:25 <Terkhen> if you don't plan to use them, just use the X numbering scheme that stuff like firefox or ICU uses
08:13:35 <planetmaker> NGC3982, in that case you could simply do a sequential numbering
08:13:51 <Terkhen> planetmaker: ask those guys in the general subforum, they seem to know what 2.x.x should include
08:14:31 <Terkhen> personally the only big thing I'm missing is destinations
08:14:31 <NGC3982> planetmaker: number.date or something
08:14:37 <NGC3982> where date is the last update
08:14:56 <NGC3982> version 119.2012-08-01
08:14:59 <NGC3982> or something like that.
08:15:03 <NGC3982> and a changelog on the site
08:15:19 <NGC3982> I keep forgetting using capital letters, though.
08:15:50 <planetmaker> apropos... Terkhen, we can get the commit time from hg. Would it make sense to display that in the grf name for releases?
08:16:05 <planetmaker> the commit time doesn't depend on build time, so it would remain the same
08:16:37 <planetmaker> Like "Swedish Rails 1.0.0 (2012-08-16)"
08:18:45 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that time would need to be localized... most average users don't know the YYYY/MM/DD ISO format, and depending on country we would need to use DD/MM/YYYY or MM/DD/YYYY
08:37:14 <NGC3982> Ammler: I have already decided.
08:37:17 <NGC3982> Ammler: But thanks. :)
08:49:23 <planetmaker> Terkhen, "16 Aug 2012" should then be clear, right?
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09:41:50 <Elukka> curiosity's landing on sunday
09:53:20 <peter1138> Elukka, assuming it works...
09:53:34 <Elukka> well, something's gonna hit the ground in some way :P
09:54:36 <Elukka> though if it had no atmosphere at all it'd be even harder
09:54:43 <Elukka> well, not necessarily harder but a lot more expensive
09:57:41 <Ammler> yyyy-mm-dd is also clear, or does yyyy-dd-mm exist?
10:01:46 <TinoDidriksen> yyyy-dd-mm does not exist.
10:05:13 <planetmaker> mm-dd-yyyy and dd-mm-yyyy exist though
10:05:24 <planetmaker> anyway, I like the written month for clarity better, too
10:05:43 <planetmaker> hg tip --template='{date|rfc822date}\n' | cut -d\ -f2-4
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10:13:06 <NGC3982> As a swede, anything else but yyyy-mm-dd sounds incredibly weird.
10:13:31 <planetmaker> welcome to the real world
10:16:36 <__ln__> happy 08/01/12 everyone
10:25:47 <peter1138> Happy second day of the eighth month of the two thousand and twelfth year of our lord.
10:26:16 <peter1138> (Twelfth has entirely too many consonants.)
10:32:26 <NGC3982> Im sorry, but you are not correct.
10:33:35 <NGC3982> Afaik, the Gregorian calendar was altered and subtracted with 11 days, anno 1752.
10:33:43 <NGC3982> Thus, Christmas is a blasphemy.
10:34:28 <NGC3982> planetmaker: The word "twelfth" is the American English version of Engelbrekt Humperdink.
10:37:15 <peter1138> I'm still not planetmaker.
10:37:39 <NGC3982> For god sake, i'm sorry.
11:15:28 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause2: By the way, im way late with this. Regarding our discussion about the expanding universe, there is a lecture with Lawrence Krauss ("A universe from nothing") where most of the experiments are explained without the advanced mathematics.
11:15:40 <NGC3982> It's also a fun lecture, and i highly recommend it.
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12:12:16 <peter1138> They've been busy...
12:18:28 <blathijs> peter1138: Don't you mean beesy?
12:31:35 <Dany0> looks like it's from sketchup
12:31:42 <Dany0> ( judging by the colours )
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12:36:33 <Dany0> also, how do I expand/move/create a rainforest in-game in sub-tropical climate?
12:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that can only be done in scenario editor
12:38:41 <Dany0> I'm a bazillionillionillionaire now, are you sure there's no way? :(
12:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, once you started a game, desert is desert
12:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it would be too easy to get around the food/water requirement of towms, just convert the town square
12:40:13 <Dany0> I just want a lumber mill
12:40:19 <Dany0> can they not cut down cactuses? :D
12:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for your expensive cactus furniture?
12:41:27 <Dany0> see I have this big loading station that has still some place around it and I'd like to increase my company performance rating
12:44:27 <Ammler> lumber will works with cactuses afaik
12:45:48 <Dany0> Ammler nope only rainforests
12:48:15 <NGC3982> What on earth is that
12:48:24 <NGC3982> Some kind of ancient elf language?
13:00:03 <Dany0> oh right I just have to look at the history
13:00:41 <NGC3982> For odd stuff in the wiki, i suggest you adress it publicly.
13:00:51 <NGC3982> Since the wiki is outdated.
13:09:40 <peter1138> and i don't think i do
13:10:32 <peter1138> how is it a great example for easy voxel editing? heh
13:13:00 <Dany0> peter1138 I don't know how to explain it...
13:16:40 <Dany0> peter1138 basically, I tried making tiles in a voxel editor, but I failed miserably because I couldn't get the proportions right
13:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, allegedly The Hobbit had so much overtime that they needed only like 20 more minutes to split the 2 films into 3
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14:23:07 <Dany0> peter1138 could you share that model?
15:15:46 <V453000> hi, is it possible that if I make a clean map with only 1 town and a "neighbours are important script" and fund new towns in the game - that the new towns which I funded are not influenced by the script?
15:19:44 <Dany0> V453000 contact the author of the script
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15:42:12 <andythenorth> FISH and an 1870 start date :|
15:42:17 <andythenorth> not sure how to solve that one
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16:16:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Make the start date earlier? :D
16:17:10 <andythenorth> I don't want to play games before 1870
16:17:24 <andythenorth> I don't want to add ships for pre-1870 either :P
16:19:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What do you have against pre-1870ists? :P
16:19:46 <andythenorth> makes sets too big and complicated, and hard to finish
16:20:02 <andythenorth> FIRS is worse for trying to support ~2,000 years of history
16:20:45 <Pinkbeast> Send 'em a pointer to the old Sailing Ships grf.
16:21:12 <andythenorth> feature request for newgrf: pointer to another grf
16:21:16 <andythenorth> just includes it :P
16:22:05 <Pinkbeast> The thing that's really missing there is horse-drawn canal boats.
16:22:43 <andythenorth> should be in egrvts [canal as a road type]
16:23:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Quit suggesting everything as a subtype of something else. It makes my head spin... :P
16:28:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Anyway, big and complicated is good. It allows games to be prolonged more :-)
16:32:04 <Pinkbeast> Certainly canals as something other than the current astronomically-expensive implementation might not hurt.
16:39:10 <Maya> Are people actually using canals for something else than just eye candy?
16:41:27 <FLHerne> Old FISH nigtlies which can reduce the costs help
16:41:30 <Maya> With standard ships or only in combination with a newgrf?
16:41:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have you done that with the NML yet?
16:42:06 <FLHerne> Maya: FISH, Sailing Ships, NewShips
16:42:18 <andythenorth> nml FISH will reduce some water construction costs
16:42:31 <FLHerne> andythenorth: :-) I'll have to upgrade to FISH 2 then...
16:42:34 <Maya> That's a whole lot of ships. ;)
16:42:41 <Pinkbeast> Maya: I did it with Sailing Ships (which looks ridiculous) in a pre-locomotive game, so I had ships and horse EGRVTS vehicles.
16:42:55 <andythenorth> FLHerne: FISH 2 should now be getting built by the bundle server
16:43:01 <andythenorth> and needs play testing
16:43:14 <FLHerne> Maya: I like variety :-) You should see my RV list :P
16:43:26 <andythenorth> maybe it's failing to build
16:43:56 <Maya> That sounds to strange if you're used to play with diesel engines @Pinkbeast XD
16:44:15 <Pinkbeast> Coughs and sneezles spread diseasels, you know.
16:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> sailing ships should probably be scaled down a notch
16:44:31 * FLHerne gets alarmed by apt-get output - it wants to remove Opera :o
16:44:38 * andythenorth seeks help with bundle server :)
16:44:46 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: It's fine, just keep them away from bridges :P
16:44:47 <andythenorth> anyone else want to try building FISH 2?
16:45:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: How convoluted is it?
16:45:12 <Maya> Just remove pything or perl FLHerne - You won't care about opera anymore (can't remember which language apt-get uses).
16:45:19 <andythenorth> FISH 2 has some python deps
16:45:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Which sort of Python?
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16:46:01 <andythenorth> FLHerne: I'm building with 2.6
16:46:10 <andythenorth> and it needs the chameleon templating library
16:46:15 * FLHerne gets confused by the apparent lack of forward or backward compatiblity :P
16:46:31 <andythenorth> also nml + nml deps are needed :P
16:46:41 <FLHerne> Can I expect 2.7 to work?
16:49:08 <FLHerne> andythenorth: So do I want src, then build_fish.py? Or is it more complicated than that?
16:49:24 <andythenorth> clone, install deps, make
16:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a list of deps?
16:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or, like, a configure script?
16:52:17 * FLHerne waits for KDE to finish updating first
16:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it fails to check out...
16:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "Abbruch: vorzeitiges Ende des Stroms (193971 Byte erhalten, 530940 erwartet)"
16:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it deletes everything it downloaded
16:57:15 <frosch123> you can download the big repos only via ssh
16:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried "hg clone --pull" now, that seems to have worked
16:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, where is the list of deps?
17:00:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you probably have them all anyway, except perhaps chameleon
17:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that one i figured out :)
17:00:40 <andythenorth> the rest are just nml deps
17:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "no rule to make fish.grf. Stop"
17:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> seems to have made fish.nml fine, though
17:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you should put this list in a readme.txt
17:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did you make modifications to the makefile or something?
17:04:29 <andythenorth> I switched it to a copy of the one that works for BANDIT
17:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because it fails to call nmlc
17:04:42 <andythenorth> that's interesting
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17:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and the grf is 1.9MB :)
17:06:11 <Matulla> hi st there a sheet where i can see the mmod of all citys
17:06:15 <FLHerne> That's handy, they just added hg support to Dolphin :-D
17:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's called "FISH FISH r886". is that intended? :)
17:07:13 <andythenorth> code says yes :P
17:07:18 <andythenorth> I should change the code :P
17:07:42 <andythenorth> maybe I have make file stuff in .hgignore
17:07:51 <andythenorth> not sure why else it wouldn't be in the repo
17:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the ship list looks odd with my patch applied :)
17:09:22 <andythenorth> finish the patch :)
17:10:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so did it make, or did you call nmlc yourself?
17:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i called nmlc myself
17:10:56 <Maya> I've been experimenting on how to reduce the impact of broken down trains on the network by having frequent lane switches (L_L_R_R ML) is there anything else i could do? I was thinking about having some kind of "back signaling" but somehow i doubt it's worth the effort.
17:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you seem to be missing scripts/Makefile.nml
17:12:50 <andythenorth> that's what *.nml in a .hgignore will do :P
17:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that's not what it should do. **.nml would do that
17:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but *.nml should only ignore nml files in the base directory
17:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (or i remember wrong)
17:14:12 <andythenorth> well the file is now in the repo :)
17:14:20 <andythenorth> I have syntax: glob
17:14:24 <andythenorth> if that makes a difference
17:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it makes a difference, but that's already what i expected :)
17:14:44 <Pinkbeast> Maya: The trouble with lane switches is that trains will break down on them with distressing regularity
17:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: seems to build fine now
17:15:57 <Maya> Hmm. *sigh* On to new ways to load balance my lines. :D The only other thing i can think of (at the moment) to reduce the impact of breakdowns.
17:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Maya: usually removing the switchovers will increase efficiency
17:16:55 <Pinkbeast> Mmm. Absent switches, at least a dead train can only block half the mainline.
17:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Maya: because trains cannot detect whether the train ahead is broken down or not, they will switch in unwanted places as well
17:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that reduces efficiency in all cases where a train is not broken down
17:18:57 <Pinkbeast> Frankly, Maya, I suggest you recognise that breakdowns don't work at present, and give up on them. :-(
17:19:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: FISH 2 now builds on bundle server
17:19:36 <Maya> I've been experimenting with adding them but haven't yet come to a conclusion. The problem is my trains usually prefer one of the lines which means (as time passes) (nearly) all trains are on the 50% which are blocked. But I guess thats why i should check my LB again. ... or come up with a way to do it for a start.
17:20:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I'll fiddle with building it anyway :P
17:20:31 <Maya> Hmmm might be an option too, to disable breakdowns. :S But first i'll give load balancing a chance (or multiplexing or whatever the heck you wanna call it).
17:20:50 <Pinkbeast> progsigs can make reasonable load balancers without the entirely artifical tricks that used to be done.
17:22:31 <Pinkbeast> Although what would be really nice (he says with the gay abandon of someone not proposing to write it) would be prototypical caution aspects which the pathfinder would naturally avoid.
17:33:40 <andythenorth> went in the suggestion forum :P
17:45:24 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24456 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt hungarian.txt):
17:45:25 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 2 changes by telanus
17:45:25 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 32 changes by IPG
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18:02:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FISH building fails :-(
18:02:50 <FLHerne> Error in language file "lang/dutch.lng": "lang/dutch.lng", line 1: Invalid grflangid
18:02:50 <FLHerne> nmlc: "input", line 341: Unknown property name: cargo_allow_refit
18:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: is your nml up to date?
18:03:48 <FLHerne> Ah, that might be it. I only have stable atm
18:10:56 <Varazir> is there a way to change default save folder ?
18:11:49 <Varazir> I have 2 computers and using dropbox to shares saves
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19:01:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I know I've asked before, but what's the limit on the number of industries? (as opposed to cargoes)
19:01:51 <FLHerne> How many does FIRS have currently?
19:03:08 <FLHerne> Ah. So what's the last cargo going to be? :P
19:04:01 * FLHerne starts game with new FISH
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19:04:40 <andythenorth> FLHerne: last cargo slot is empty
19:04:55 <FLHerne> Or maybe not - is FISH still savegame compatible?
19:05:00 <andythenorth> approximately yes
19:05:11 <andythenorth> someone might need it
19:05:17 <andythenorth> like NARS 2 does
19:06:09 <FLHerne> Is new FISH autorefittable?
19:06:21 <andythenorth> try it and see ;)
19:06:47 <FLHerne> I'll use it in my current game then, I can have more mega-transfer stations :P
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20:14:06 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why did you remove the sand platforms from CHIPS? Now I haven't got anything to use with quarries :-(
20:14:27 <andythenorth> use the mud platforms
20:15:28 <andythenorth> and use a recent FIRS, the quarries have mud
20:15:52 <FLHerne> I have 0.7.5 atm. Do you mean nightlies?
20:16:50 <andythenorth> nightly FIRS has a number of improvements
20:17:23 <andythenorth> actually 0.7.5 has most of them
20:18:03 <FLHerne> Also, is it save-compatible with 0.7.5 currently?
20:20:17 <andythenorth> probably save compatible
20:23:06 <FLHerne> Aw, you fixed the hotels :-(
20:24:14 <FLHerne> Could you give those a parameter or something? They're great for making small towns/islands/whatever economically serveable :P
20:24:28 <andythenorth> reported as a bug; now fixed
20:24:39 <andythenorth> code your own if you want that feature
20:24:53 <andythenorth> you coded newobjects right?
20:25:15 <FLHerne> Almost got the m4 sorted now :P
20:25:53 <FLHerne> Perhaps a mini-hotel with 1/4 the production and 1/10 the price? :P
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20:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: shouldn't it be the other way around?
20:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: otherwise you could just place 4 mini-thingies and have the same production for less than half the price
21:08:14 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: No. It should be assumed that the user won't cheat unless they want to :P
21:44:30 <FLHerne> Random bug report: Choosing a different 'fixed' autorefit cargo changes the order from 'full load any' to 'full load'. Anyone else have this?
21:54:40 <Supercheese> Confirmed on my end as well, r23495
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