IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-31
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09:45:31 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I won for just a minute :P
09:46:46 <planetmaker> and still you were more elaborate :-)
09:52:00 <NGC3982> thunder killed the entire office today morning.
09:53:00 <NGC3982> when everything started up again i realized that i havent logged in on my statistics computers since february 2011
09:53:13 <NGC3982> the passwords? no frekkin' idea..
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11:17:41 <agaran> hello, is any easy way to prevent city expanding roads trough tracks creating jams in turn besides making tunnels/bridges or adding signals every square?
11:20:09 <FLHerne> agaran: There's a setting to prevent towns from building LCs, IIRC
11:22:32 * FLHerne can't find it on the wiki though
11:24:08 <FLHerne> Perhaps that was some random patch I was using. :-(
11:24:57 <agaran> i see, i rather would expect to not letting city build road trough track since company owns that ground but well
11:26:11 <planetmaker> there's a setting which disallows towns to build road on their own
11:26:45 <FLHerne> planetmaker: That's a pain though, you have to go round building roads for all your towns :-(
11:26:46 <planetmaker> but it will influence *all* road building of towns
11:27:21 <planetmaker> if it's just about roads going over tracks: build a signal on the tile in front of roads. It's really not that much effort
11:27:40 <FLHerne> I know the version I'm using can block town/competitor LCs, but I can't remember which patch did that :P
11:27:48 <agaran> planetmaker: sure but looks ugly and changes spacing between signals so when signal density returns to normal it might cause jams etc, right?
11:28:05 <planetmaker> and indeed, there's a special setting (dis)allowing towns to build level crossings
11:29:36 <planetmaker> he... the level crossings are not there yet in my zbase version. Looks funny :-)
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11:34:59 <FLHerne> planetmaker: In trunk/stable? I couldn't find it on the wiki...
11:36:39 <FLHerne> Yes, but I didn't know if it actually existed in trunk at all :P
11:36:40 <planetmaker> FLHerne: the best place to look is in the adv. settings ingame. It's garanteed to be up to date ;-)
11:36:58 <planetmaker> or alternatively look at the openttd.cfg
11:37:11 <planetmaker> the var names usually are pretty good
11:37:48 <FLHerne> planetmaker: On my PC, it's also guarranteed to be full of stuff borrowed from the dev forum that isn't in trunk :P
11:38:05 <FLHerne> That is, if opening it doesn't cause a segfault :P
11:38:40 <planetmaker> then ... checking ingame helps ;-)
11:38:47 <planetmaker> and yes, it's a wiki :-)
11:39:47 <FLHerne> planetmaker: But then I still don't know if it's in trunk, or just some random patch :P
11:41:11 <planetmaker> yes, you will know... unless you want to tell me that you don't know what programme you start by using a random programme start button ;-)
11:42:01 <planetmaker> (don'T you have separate dirs for your different patched and unpatched versions?)
11:42:04 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Well, all my .desktop files are randomly screwed up... ;-)
11:42:30 <FLHerne> For some reason, I never actually keep binaries of stable versions :P
11:42:47 <FLHerne> I have trunk source for patching, of course
11:44:42 <planetmaker> it's worth to keep them. Just for fun sometimes :-)
11:45:47 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Maybe I should :-)
11:46:32 <planetmaker> and considering that 1 openttd install = 2 mp3 files when comparing size, it has no big hdd footprint either
11:47:23 <agaran> planetmaker: depends on bitrate and length ;-) and you need something to prevent different versions share .openttd too
11:47:44 <planetmaker> agaran: no, you don't need that
11:47:59 <agaran> to have separate configs for stable and trunk for example?
11:48:03 <planetmaker> and what's "bitrate and length" and what depends on it?
11:48:12 <agaran> planetmaker: mp3 size to compare with ;)
11:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> 3-5 minutes and 128-256kbit :=)
11:49:03 <planetmaker> agaran: why do you need different configs for stable and nightly? And even then... you just need to place the config file locally then...
11:49:26 <agaran> planetmaker: i didnt knew it scan current dir before diggin in ~/.openttd
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11:49:45 <planetmaker> see. Learnt something new ;-)
11:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "touch openttd.cfg"
11:50:22 <planetmaker> but unless you run servers my personal POV is to just use one cfg in ~/.openttd
11:50:33 <planetmaker> after all you change things anyway from game to game
11:50:51 <planetmaker> and that doesn't really depend on version, but rather "what do I want now"
11:51:25 <Terkhen> I always use the same config, both for trunk and stable
11:52:08 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then you haven't updated zbase yet ;) that's many hours of music
11:52:45 <planetmaker> indeed I haven't. It's still building :-)
11:53:31 <Ammler> openttd is going to become cd size :-)
11:54:22 <planetmaker> with zbase: sure. It's finished way less than 50% and already 150MB :-)
11:55:10 <planetmaker> hm... 41% according to highscore.py :-)
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11:55:51 <planetmaker> which is a very nice amount of "done" given the short time :-)
11:55:57 <Rubidium> and even less according to my highscore script which uses the nfo and not the nml, and as such takes the extra grf into account
11:56:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the highscore.py also counts extra/*
11:56:35 <planetmaker> or at least it says so :-)
11:56:38 <Rubidium> I really wonder/hope we can use OGFX+Train's trains (almost) verbatim. That's a few hundred extra
11:56:54 <planetmaker> hm... no. 0 of 0. That's not sensible
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11:56:58 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and you don't find it odd most of them are finished with 0 finished?
11:57:07 <planetmaker> yup :-) Just realized
11:57:11 <Ammler> does bananas already support those grfs?
11:57:18 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes, I think we can use ogfx+trains nearly verbatim
11:57:23 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes and no
11:57:33 <Rubidium> the replacenew and sprite replacements aren't checked AFAIK
11:57:36 <michi_cc> OGFX+ seems to use a different lighting setup, doesn't it? No idea how complicated that would be to change with blender.
11:57:41 <planetmaker> software yes, hardware (temp size) no
11:58:03 <planetmaker> michi_cc: my understanding is to just use the other light template and re-render
11:58:12 <Ammler> planetmaker: means it does but the filesize will fail?
11:58:16 <planetmaker> but not sure how much "just" that is :-)
11:58:40 <planetmaker> limit is about... 20? 30? MB or so
11:59:10 <michi_cc> I'd expect Zeph already has some kind of template for vehicles from his 32bpp eGRVTs.
11:59:14 <Ammler> well, our server might become slow as we have no mirrors
12:00:03 <Ammler> current dlspeed is 50kb, usually I have around 2.5mb
12:01:56 <planetmaker> I mean... that slow?
12:02:34 <Ammler> hmm, rised again to 1.5mb, maybe was slow on my side...
12:02:43 <planetmaker> yes, zeph certainly has some vehicle templates. But might not have for trains. The light setup should be the same for every sprite, though
12:02:59 <michi_cc> Ammler: I can offer you about 750GB/month transfer, but only ~1GB storage space or so.
12:04:23 <Ammler> well, I would asume, a future goal is to support big files via bananas?
12:06:45 <planetmaker> michi_cc: thanks :-) We'll watch the traffic I guess and if it gets really bad we'd mirror the latest builds of zbase and ogfx-trains?
12:07:09 <planetmaker> but having openttd's bananas support of course would be better :-)
12:08:21 <planetmaker> Ammler: that unfortunately means touching the VM setup(s) :-)
12:11:07 <Rubidium> how many actually download opengfx 'stable' from the openttdcoop site?
12:27:29 <Snail> some time ago, var61 was extended to a few more callbacks (one of the was the recoloring callback) because we found out it couldn't generate circular references
12:28:15 <Snail> my question now is, could that be extended to the power effects callback too (steam, diesel smoke etc.)? I believe it would behave similarly to the recoloring one, i.e. there would be no issues with circular references eiter
12:28:50 <Snail> and that would be quite useful, for instance when coding push-pull trains when the last vehicle could be a powered one (so needing smoke or bolts) or just a driving trailer (not needing any effects)
12:29:39 <Snail> it would be easy by accessing var61 with respect to the last wagon and then decide the power effects
12:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is: can you read the power effect via var61?
12:35:28 <Snail> well, there's var FE/00/05 , which tells you if it's powered. But I don't know if it refers to the *power effects*
12:36:33 <Snail> since a powered wagon can be powered, but have no power effects (and vice-versa)
12:38:47 <planetmaker> var 61 must not be able to use callback 10
12:39:00 <planetmaker> or you get exactly this circularity which must not occur
12:39:03 <NGC3982> dude, var and callback?
12:39:11 * NGC3982 notices how the channel turns in to a callcenter.
12:39:41 <planetmaker> si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses
12:39:55 * NGC3982 notices how the channel turns in to a linksys support callcenter.
12:40:27 <Snail> I see, what would the circular reference triggered by?
12:40:53 <planetmaker> the colour callback is *only* called during drawing
12:41:02 <planetmaker> callback 10 e.g. is called for speed / power changes
12:41:24 <planetmaker> e.g. when changing railtype
12:43:04 <Snail> or to have more steam when it climbs a hill?
12:43:04 <michi_cc> Snail: The big problem with cb 10 is that it controls powered wagons, which is also readable via var FE -> circular reference.
12:43:13 <planetmaker> thus CB 1B, 2D, 31 and 32 do not change the running vehicle (except the colour during drawing exclusively for 2D) on the tracks
12:44:00 <Snail> ok, so I guess I'll have to find another way around this. I'll probably use the userbits instead :p
12:44:28 <planetmaker> I'd hope for an openttd implementation of push-pull ;-)
12:44:44 <planetmaker> with a simple misc-flag :-P
12:45:41 <Snail> that would mean I could throw lots of code I just wrote down the toilet :p
12:45:47 <planetmaker> the lengths newgrfs must go to support it - are HUGE. And even then only a limited support can be added
12:46:16 <planetmaker> yup. But to my knowledge no such patch attempt exists yet. So it's not (yet) wasted
12:46:27 <planetmaker> only the thought of "would make sense"
12:47:01 <Snail> yeah... one big impossible (as of now) thing is that we can't change vehicle lengths on the fly
12:47:02 <planetmaker> at least I have it since I wrote that for ogfx+trains 2 years ago ;-) And then discarded the newgrf approach as "tmwftlb"
12:47:16 <Snail> so swapping vehicles must always have the same length, which is somewhat limiting
12:47:31 <planetmaker> and it also implies you cannot combine trainsets
12:47:49 <Snail> true, push-pull must be embedded in one trainset
12:47:50 <planetmaker> and are limited to exactly known wagon graphics etc
12:47:58 <planetmaker> thus it will also break with an override newgrf
12:48:27 <planetmaker> and has many loose edges with, like you said, lengths, ... you know it probably better than me already :-)
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12:50:01 <planetmaker> an openttd implementation unfortunately was not as straight forward either as I hoped ;-)
12:50:32 <Snail> guess so... even a "home-made" implementation is a pain in the butt ;)
12:51:06 <Snail> especially if you want to have various different graphics for the intermediate wagons (like a train with wagons of different ages, hence liveries)
12:51:16 <planetmaker> still I guess the openttd side implementation would be a lot easier
12:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <Snail> that would mean I could throw lots of code I just wrote down the toilet :p <-- that's why i'm not even trying to write that code
12:52:48 <Snail> question is, will there be a push-pull implementation ever?
12:52:56 <Snail> maybe we just have to push the developers ;)
12:53:31 <planetmaker> nah. You know... cookies work better ;-)
12:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what i could use is ctrl+click in depot to turn around articulated vehicles
12:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> for things like ICE2, which usually connect back-to-back
12:54:28 <planetmaker> Snail: "ever" is a long time. So I'll say 'yes'. But when? No idea :-)
12:54:43 <Snail> planetmaker: I get what you mean :)
12:55:22 <Snail> eddi|zuHause: oh, that's not possible? I thought you could do it with allowing flipping and then exchanging graphics between the two ends if the vehicle is flipped...
12:55:31 <Snail> but then again, I never tried it myself, so I might be wrong
12:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: no, only single vehicles can be flipped
12:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> at least last time i checked
12:56:43 <planetmaker> that didn't change yet, Eddi|zuHause
12:56:54 <planetmaker> at least not the last time I checked ;-)
12:57:05 <planetmaker> (like a few days ago)
12:57:31 <planetmaker> it's one of the reasons I want tenders for steam engines an option via newgrf parameter :-)
12:57:43 <Snail> thanks guys, have a great day
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13:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what would be the use of that?
13:07:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: of the parameter? you have then the option to decide "steam engines could also be flipped = default behaviour)" and "steam engines cannot be flipped"
13:07:55 <planetmaker> in the first case you have no tenders drawn
13:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said previously, engines with tenders are usually not flipped
13:08:20 <planetmaker> might be a speciality for ogfx+trains... or that I simply cannot decide to throw away default behaviour easily
13:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> as they can only do very low speeds backwardsw
13:08:35 <planetmaker> "realistically" :-)
13:08:58 <planetmaker> that's what you have the parameter for. Maybe it could be generalized to "realistic" and "gameplay" as choices :-)
13:08:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no real reason to allow thme, then
13:09:26 <planetmaker> there is. Many people like steam engines with tenders
13:09:39 <planetmaker> it does look good :-)
13:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> then include ones with tenders and others without. then only the ones without can be flipped
13:13:09 <Pinkbeast> I don't think at the scale of OTTD it makes any sense to get into locomotive reversing issues.
13:16:06 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: why not? It would make much sense imho
13:16:10 <planetmaker> seher: does it matter?
13:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if that feature was introduced, i would specifically disable it for steam engines, except a select few
13:28:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I understand that :-)
13:28:27 <planetmaker> and indeed - didn't think of mixing it yet. Might be interesting. But will mean to change the code :-)
13:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, reversing a consist and push-pull are probably related features
13:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with push-pull is that there are several ways how a train could be reversed. the whole consist drives backwards, the engine moves to the other end and wagons stay the same, the engine gets turned around and moves to the other end, ...
13:33:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I see push-pull as simply going the other direction
13:34:09 <planetmaker> sure the others are valid scenarios... but that's somewhat the same as we have now: just reversing
13:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but you can count the distance between the implementation of that and the feature request for the other variants in days :(
13:35:43 <planetmaker> that might be true
13:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> need shunting! :)
13:53:52 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Because the stations are so huge relative to towns, it feels like there are abstracted-out turntables/wyes etc already; because an OTTD locomotive already runs 24/7, representing the operation of many trains and multiple locomotives.
13:54:13 <Pinkbeast> An explicit reversing facility would be huge, and consume huge quantities of time.
13:55:14 <Pinkbeast> In the same way that I don't worry that a train "8 tiles" long can be accomodated in a 1-tile depot.
13:55:16 <planetmaker> oh, you mean along the lines of depot? then it's one tile :-P
13:56:56 <Pinkbeast> Certainly I'd regard it as a giant own goal if explicit locomotive reversing just meant depots everywhere.
14:02:33 <FLHerne> It should require run-round loops at all termini :P
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14:03:47 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth :-)
14:07:58 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Afternoon :-)
14:17:12 <NGC3982> FLHerne: i usually make that happend, even if i dont have to
14:17:21 <NGC3982> i like building small turnaround systems
14:21:45 <FLHerne> NGC3982: Surely they're not possible without coupling?
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14:31:46 <FLHerne> NGC3982: A run-round loop without the ability to uncouple locos would be rather pointless :P
14:32:58 * FLHerne experiments with Quassel
14:33:51 <NGC3982> FLHerne: uhm, what. i want to turn the full train around. just turn and return to the original track?
14:35:30 <FLHerne> Ah. Different definitions for 'run-round loop' then :P
14:53:05 <NGC3982> FLHerne: ah, yes. i was literaly speaking.
14:53:14 <NGC3982> i have no idea of the actual terminology
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15:29:40 <Maya> Hi everyone! :) Does anyone know which setting or NewGRF displays Houses as colored squares (Greenish and red)?
15:30:41 <planetmaker> in transparent mode that will be TAI (Towns and Industries) by Pikka
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15:31:51 <Maya> Cool, thanks for the super quick reply! It did look interesting but i missed to lookup which GRFs were used in that particular multiplayer game.
15:33:58 * telanus thinks it's crazily cold
15:35:11 <planetmaker> Maya: if you have the savegame (maybe from autosave), you can always load it in SP and look then :-)
15:35:33 <planetmaker> or just save it when you find an interesting setup and then you have it for future reference :-)
15:36:44 <Maya> it's a about 20°C here so I guess you're nowhere near me or you are a reptile, telanus.
15:37:34 <Maya> I didn't save the game (Though i wonder why ...) but thanks for the hint!
15:45:38 <FLHerne> Someone (r) should add NML syntax highlighting to KATE :P
15:45:56 <FLHerne> Does anyone here know what the best option is for the moment?
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15:50:22 <planetmaker> the best option imho is if you provide us with that highlighting now. I will happily make use of it :-)
15:50:55 <lilleman> I have a dedicated server running, I can connect with telnet from my client, but in the GUI off the game it says "SERVER OFFLINE". Any ideas?
15:51:42 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:51:53 <planetmaker> ^^ configured properly on box and router?
15:52:45 <lilleman> Ah, I have only opened TCP, not UDP
15:53:35 <planetmaker> at least you know that you need to configure it :-)
15:53:57 <planetmaker> and even how to do that :-)
15:54:47 <lilleman> Seems my configs for server name and stuff didnt work though *restarting and fixing*
15:55:29 <lilleman> Do you know how much CPU/RAM this game requires? I have it running on my company dev-server.... and it kinda need to work. :)
15:55:35 <lilleman> I had 700MB free RAM when I started it
15:56:09 <planetmaker> we run a game server on a VM with 512 MB ram without issues
15:56:18 <planetmaker> 256 worked mostly but not in the endgame phases
15:56:31 <planetmaker> Typical map sizes there were 512^2 with 2k vehicles
15:56:42 <planetmaker> you should be fine
15:56:47 <planetmaker> if you run dedicated
15:58:05 <planetmaker> cpu ... just a little *less* than the clients
15:58:29 <lilleman> Its a VM actually, but on a private Essex cloud
15:59:01 <FLHerne> lilleman: I've run it on a machine with 32MB RAM (GUI version) :P :D
15:59:20 <FLHerne> It's hardly playable though :P
15:59:35 <lilleman> On the VM there is _NO_ SWAP though
15:59:41 <lilleman> and I have 2GB RAM there
16:00:03 <lilleman> Only running some PHP and Django dev-sites though.... should be ok :)
16:07:57 <lilleman> oh, is there a way to have more autosaves than once/month?
16:08:11 <planetmaker> once a month = every 5 minutes...
16:08:25 <planetmaker> every 1.5 minutes
16:08:59 <planetmaker> a game year is 14 minutes approx
16:09:28 <planetmaker> what *might* be interesting, though, lilleman, is to increase the number of autosaves which are kept
16:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought more like 12 minutes
16:09:58 <planetmaker> @calc 74*0.03 * 30
16:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there is a patch that allows also weekly and daily autosave, for use with daylength patches
16:10:04 <planetmaker> @calc 74*0.03 * 365
16:10:07 <planetmaker> @calc 74*0.03 * 365 / 60
16:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what is REALLY necessary sometimes is to make autosaves also while the date is not progressing
16:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. longer paused periods (with build while paused) or the scenario editor
16:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 minutes/5minutes/15minutes
16:20:10 <planetmaker> and 1 hour or so :-)
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16:42:23 <NGC3982> are most of the NewGRF's made under the creative commons license?
16:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> creative commons isn't really the best choice for anything containing code
16:43:37 <NGC3982> it looks like ECS is.
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17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24450 /trunk/src/lang/ (lithuanian.txt luxembourgish.txt romanian.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 14 changes by Phreeze
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: romanian - 5 changes by tonny
17:57:21 <Maya> I've never seen a "double ML" is there anything i should watch out for?
17:58:01 <frosch123> have enough space :p
18:00:25 <planetmaker> (or tripple or quadruple :-P )
18:01:14 <Maya> frosch123 IMO 0 Spacing is plenty! >)
18:02:14 <planetmaker> that's what you say now ;-)
18:03:16 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's perfectly fine for the ML to have no space around it
18:03:28 <Rubidium> any junctions in the main line will be a whole different story
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18:04:49 * Supercheese starts making a Powerlines "railtype"
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18:05:05 <agaran> Supercheese: powerlines as for electricity?
18:05:29 <Supercheese> grabbing some sparks from the base set to use as vehicles
18:05:50 <planetmaker> and catenary as "tracks"? :-P
18:05:51 <Supercheese> To start I'll just use the default catenary/pylons
18:05:53 <Rubidium> a powerline railtype is really easy graphics wise
18:05:56 <Supercheese> to see how it looks
18:06:22 <Supercheese> Stations not in NML yet though :(
18:06:22 <Rubidium> but it's so unreal...
18:06:42 <Rubidium> ... someone told me that then goods have to be transported instantaniously
18:06:46 <agaran> is possible to change where signals are placed, ie left/right side of track for given direction?
18:06:58 <Rubidium> and you're never going to get that with any rail derived thing
18:07:21 <Supercheese> Eh, I figure blazing fast speed roughly equivalent to "instantly" is fine
18:07:54 <Supercheese> Anyhow, still have a lot to do
18:08:02 <Rubidium> it would add a new scale to the game though
18:09:51 <FLHerne> Was it SAC who drew some really nice-looking pylons?
18:10:08 <andythenorth> ask on Simuscape
18:10:25 <Supercheese> Problem is they don't have rotations for NSEW
18:11:33 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
18:12:48 <Supercheese> Ooh, gotta vote for SotM
18:14:26 <Supercheese> Sheesh, so many good ones to choose from
18:17:57 <Supercheese> Hm I see FooBar has some strategic checks in his NML for OTTD versions, and enables/disables features accordingly
18:18:03 <Supercheese> Good for compatibility, I suppose
18:18:18 * Supercheese does the same for Powerlines
18:19:41 <andythenorth> railtype madness ftw!
18:19:51 <andythenorth> someone do 'narrow canals' as railtype :P
18:19:56 <Supercheese> Well, since we don't have RoadTypes
18:20:02 <andythenorth> also industrial gondolas
18:20:07 <Supercheese> (not that I'd do powerlines as roadtypes)
18:20:25 <Supercheese> Canals as railtypes, eh?
18:20:44 <Supercheese> We're limited to 16, unfortunately... :(
18:24:14 <frosch123> we should turn ottd into a text adventure
18:24:46 <Supercheese> You can't place ye train!
18:24:49 <Rubidium> we should turn OpenTTD into the matrix. Then they got realism!
18:24:50 <peter1138> Pfft, when I were a lad, we were limited to 3!
18:26:06 <Rubidium> yes, all blame Celestar!
18:28:19 <andythenorth> Error in language file "lang/afrikaans.lng":
18:28:25 <andythenorth> can nml be more explicit?
18:28:44 <peter1138> Can I not just blame myself?
18:29:36 <andythenorth> seems reasonable
18:29:45 <andythenorth> who do we blame for roadtypes? :)
18:29:47 <NGC3982> Rubidium: don't joke about the matrix.
18:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. celestar increased it to 4 :p
18:30:09 <NGC3982> what if i told you, the red pill was that ginzy a4 you bought a few years ago.
18:33:22 <Supercheese> Multiple colons in BUY_MENU_TEXT? Is that a problem?
18:34:20 <andythenorth> unlikely, but nice try :)
18:34:40 * andythenorth has found the issue
18:34:46 <NGC3982> you have a deep error in the human grids
18:34:46 <andythenorth> pasted into the generated file, not the source :P
18:34:53 <NGC3982> i have sent for sentinels to take care of it
18:35:29 <Hirundo> andythenorth: that's quite un-specific, can you paste the language file somewhere?
18:35:55 <Hirundo> nvm, forgot to scroll down a bit
18:35:56 <andythenorth> Hirundo: it's resolved, stupid mistake by me
18:36:15 <andythenorth> however the error output could have a useful line number or such?
18:36:23 <Hirundo> what was the mistake?
18:36:43 <andythenorth> pasted into the generated file, not the source file
18:37:18 <andythenorth> separately, the makefile doesn't understand my lang files
18:37:30 <andythenorth> which slightly masked the errror
18:38:08 <andythenorth> telanus: FISH updated
18:38:39 <telanus> andythenorh: the scary part that I found out is that our language has no word for Hydrofoil
18:40:07 * NGC3982 made a system upgrade.
18:41:00 <frosch123> telanus: so "vleuel boten" is nonsense?
18:42:05 <NGC3982> frosch123: You mean; Vleugelboot?
18:42:38 <frosch123> i don't mean draagvleugelboot
18:42:54 <NGC3982> I think i am in love with that word.
18:43:46 <frosch123> NGC3982: up to now i failed in convincing them that dutch and afrikaans is the same
18:43:47 <NGC3982> You dutch people are de bijen knien.
18:44:01 <telanus> frosch123: That's Dutch, Boten = Boot
18:44:42 <frosch123> google says taht "vleuel boten" is afrikaans, and "draagvleugelboot" is dutch
18:44:46 <Supercheese> And now for something unrelated to powerlines: is SOUND_EVENT_TOUCHDOWN available for helicopters or just aircraft?
18:45:09 <frosch123> NGC3982: none of the participicants in the discussion was dutch
18:45:23 <NGC3982> frosch123: Who cares. It's fantastic!
18:46:24 <Maya> First my ML decides to start a band (it's been jamming like hell) and now all of a sudden most of the trains are idle. Sometimes i really feel what's the advantage of actually planing your network.
18:46:30 <NGC3982> frosch123: Note that the only thing i know about dutch is that it's verbally the same thing as swedish (or scandinavian).
18:47:02 * NGC3982 is starting to feel good about using capitol letters.
18:47:42 <frosch123> i have no heard dutch talk about smørebrød or tysen tak
18:47:57 <NGC3982> frosch123: Note; Verbally.
18:48:24 <telanus> frosch123: I've seen that translation, and think google is horribly wrong, in afrikaans we don't have "boten" anymore. One could translate google's translation as Vleuelboot, but translating it back to English it's a "Winged boat"
18:48:54 <frosch123> telanus: does not sound so wrong
18:49:03 <NGC3982> You people are messed up. Don't throw something as fantastic as 'Draagvleugelturtlepowerboot' under the bus.
18:49:04 <frosch123> it's also winged boat in german
18:49:23 <FLHerne> Maya: There is no advantage to planning your network. Networks should be spontaneous and organic :P
18:49:26 <NGC3982> telanus: Isn't a 'winged boat' the right word to use, then?
18:50:23 <Maya> Mine is and it's starting to crumble ... well mostly because my trains think that choosing the inner lane instead of the outer lane is a great idea.
18:53:56 <frosch123> telanus: just make sure it does not sound like "ekranoplan"
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19:00:06 <telanus> I've asked one of the Profs at Our Afrikaans University if it's correct
19:00:41 <telanus> as I can't find it in any of my dictionaries
19:01:37 <frosch123> something with engineering, or something with language? :p
19:02:18 <Maya> is there anyway to tell a station "you won't slow down trains that are passing!", a 1x1 Station as a PF "obstacle" would help a lot. :/
19:02:46 <NGC3982> frosch123: "Where there are questions, there is hope"
19:03:15 <telanus> he's one of our Language profs
19:03:19 <NGC3982> frosch123: You know, that used to be my entry question in meetings with anyone new i meat. "Something with engineering?! :D"
19:04:02 <frosch123> Maya: there are waypoints
19:04:12 <frosch123> and you can set orders to drive-through
19:04:48 <FLHerne> Maya: Or just use lots of path signals facing the wrong way, for penalties :P
19:05:38 <planetmaker> advanced users use level crossings ;-)
19:06:45 <frosch123> your own? or those of opponents?
19:06:52 *** yorick_ has joined #openttd
19:07:54 *** TrueBrain_ has joined #openttd
19:08:47 <planetmaker> frosch123: doesn't matter. level crossings add a path penalty of 300 instead of the normal 10 to a tile :-)
19:09:24 <Rubidium> power users just modify the pathfinder code
19:09:30 *** TrueBrain_ is now known as TrueBrain
19:10:28 <Hirundo> andythenorth: When I try to load that lng file, I get the 'Line has no ':'-delimiter'-error at line 9, which seems fine to me
19:13:33 <Maya> Frosch Waypoints didn't seem to add enough of a penalty (or none at all?) and thanks FLHerne and Planetmaker for both tips.
19:14:09 <Supercheese> I think it's not so much adding penalties as using them to force trains to go via certain points
19:16:47 * TrueBrain feels sad Luukland servers are being shut down.
19:17:13 <TrueBrain> I also feel sad that he feels the need for a whole rampage about the dev team, while I wrote a whole damn interface for him to make his server based upon
19:17:52 <TrueBrain> I guess some people hold grudges rather than seeing the new stuff added or something? I dunno .. *sad panda*
19:18:28 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: yes. a lost "battle" weighs 10x any bonus
19:18:51 <TrueBrain> I guess he never understood I wrote that interface mostly because I like his servers. Owh well :)
19:18:54 <TrueBrain> at least I tried :)
19:19:22 <Supercheese> Man, trying to read the post at luukland.net is tedious
19:19:29 <Supercheese> I take it English isn't his first language
19:21:38 <Maya> Supercheese sure but "somewhere" there is "something" wrong with my design. So i need some extra penalties! ;D Yes it's the wrong way to fix it. But I'm reworking the Tracks alreay. Still there is something a miss which i'm missing. :/
19:21:47 <Supercheese> Holy cow, I found an old GRF I made I thought I had lost!
19:21:56 <Supercheese> It somehow was shoved in a totally unrelated .rar archive
19:22:06 * Supercheese celebrates by leaving for lunch
19:22:34 <TrueBrain> what is this rar you talk about? :P
19:22:38 <TrueBrain> 2005 called, they want their rar back
19:22:42 <Supercheese> I did long ago, before I switched to 7Z/*PAQ
19:22:49 <FLHerne> frosch123: Outdated Windows users?
19:23:14 <Supercheese> Anyhow, lunchtime
19:23:18 <TrueBrain> Bill Gates called, he wants his broken Windows back
19:23:36 <Rubidium> for some reason I always disliked rars
19:23:39 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: yes, I know that many people played there, let's hope that other servers take the challenge now that it is easier to do so
19:24:01 <Terkhen> mostly because I'm usually on windows and my friends use it too
19:24:41 <andythenorth> Hirundo: I don't see that error, although I'm not too bothered as it was my dumb mistake that caused the issue
19:24:54 <andythenorth> it might be getting trapped by make or such, not sure
19:24:55 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: I guess it is an oppurtinity (how the *** do you write that word?) for others to step up indeed, and make something similar
19:25:40 <Terkhen> yes, I have seen some nice NoGo scripts, but I know that they still have not reached the full potential that NoGo offers :)
19:25:54 <Terkhen> I don't know if servers have been addopting them already or not
19:25:57 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: slowly getting there :D
19:26:20 <__ln__> 22:22 < frosch123> who uses rar? <-- the whole china and korea (south)
19:26:37 * andythenorth reads luukland's
19:26:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no fucking clue what you talk about :)
19:27:01 <TrueBrain> seems rather random to me
19:27:51 <frosch123> even the longest truck?
19:27:53 <andythenorth> personally, if I don't see a ship smoke patch soon, I'm going to start a blog
19:28:02 <andythenorth> so I can publicly announce I'm leaving :P
19:28:20 <Terkhen> andythenorth: a blog about your development progress with that smoke patch?
19:28:32 <TrueBrain> starting a blog to post you are leaving
19:28:40 <TrueBrain> well, except for the leaving part ofc
19:28:43 <TrueBrain> but I like the concept :)
19:28:55 <andythenorth> frankly the attitude of openttd devs towards important issues like ship smoke
19:28:59 <andythenorth> leaves a lot to be desired
19:29:11 <andythenorth> and I want the quality to be the highest
19:29:19 * andythenorth ^ is practicing a draft of his leaving post
19:29:41 <TrueBrain> we eager await your patch; be warrent, it has to be of the highest quality :D
19:29:59 * andythenorth actually considers trying to patch it, again
19:30:03 <TrueBrain> isn't smoke banned btw?
19:30:13 <TrueBrain> sets a bad example, smoke in a game
19:30:17 <TrueBrain> it might put minors up to smoking
19:30:20 <TrueBrain> I want a law against it
19:30:39 <andythenorth> does the game have an environment var for 'player is indoors' ?
19:30:52 <TrueBrain> I guess 95% of our players are
19:30:57 <frosch123> we have a newgrf var for the moonphase
19:30:58 <TrueBrain> so we can just dismiss the other 5%
19:31:16 <andythenorth> the moon is a cargo type
19:31:40 * andythenorth considers a cheeses grf
19:32:00 <TrueBrain> stop talking about cheese
19:32:01 * NGC3982 needs to re-evaluate the moon.
19:32:06 <frosch123> does it reveal my nationality if i think of sausages if you say "cheese"?
19:32:07 <andythenorth> why are your referring to a novelist NGC3982 ?
19:32:32 <andythenorth> so wtf do I do to patch ship smoke?
19:32:35 <NGC3982> I have no planetary systems filled with Greene Cheese people.
19:32:45 <andythenorth> I have this new version of FISH, shiny, improved.
19:32:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: play fish, it has ship smoke
19:33:14 <andythenorth> it's not very good
19:33:24 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Let's see.
19:33:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: try a bandage
19:34:07 <TrueBrain> (See what I did there ... patch ... huh huh, know what you mean, say no more)
19:34:08 <NGC3982> Give me an example of an old FISH ship with smoke.
19:35:36 <NGC3982> andythenorth: fitzroy?
19:35:45 <NGC3982> I can't see any smoke. :3
19:35:56 <andythenorth> try the Labrador
19:37:04 <andythenorth> it relies on the train acceleration model
19:37:12 <andythenorth> which applies brilliantly to ships :P
19:37:15 <NGC3982> Yes, that needs to be improves to hold the class of the rest of the GRF.
19:37:32 <andythenorth> I did patch the acceleration models for about half a day one
19:37:52 *** ErichEckner has joined #openttd
19:37:58 <andythenorth> but it got binned because it needs to be done properly
19:38:09 <NGC3982> Is it the acceleration model that makes it only go puff' at start and stop, since acceleration doesnt ..apply while running?
19:38:36 *** tparker has joined #openttd
19:38:52 <NGC3982> Though, some train GRF's seem to have random puff's of smoke while running
19:38:58 <NGC3982> Is that also due to acceleration model?
19:39:06 <andythenorth> ^ patch, can't remember if it works
19:39:15 <ErichEckner> Hi! How exactly do I use the "go to depot and refit"-order?
19:39:37 <frosch123> you add a depot order, and then set a refitting
19:39:48 <frosch123> no idea what you ask
19:39:52 <ErichEckner> how do I tell him what he should load isntead?
19:39:56 <frosch123> game play or user interface
19:40:10 <ErichEckner> I get a window with no possibilities to click, as far as I can determine
19:40:20 <frosch123> then the vehicle is not refittable
19:40:36 <frosch123> not all vehicles are refittable
19:40:52 <frosch123> not all trains either :p
19:41:01 <NGC3982> ErichEckner: Note that you have to hilight the row with the order to enable the "Refit"-button. Although, make sure your carts can be refitted first.
19:41:03 <ErichEckner> only the locomotives, it seems
19:41:26 <frosch123> ErichEckner: it all depends on what grfs you use
19:41:32 <ErichEckner> isn't it possible to change some waggons of a train in the depot?
19:41:40 <frosch123> default vehicles have only ship, aircraft and some train engines refittable
19:41:49 <frosch123> and the latter likely only pax/mail/goods or so
19:42:23 <andythenorth> no idea what that smoke patch is supposed to do :P
19:42:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: make a lot of smoke
19:42:44 <frosch123> talking might be enough
19:43:09 <frosch123> talking creates hot air, steam, smoke, ...
19:43:09 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Since boat pathfinders is a god forsaken mess; You could make it smoke every third deviation from a straight line at full speed.
19:43:13 <NGC3982> Or something like that.
19:43:23 <NGC3982> frosch123: Talking does not create smoke.
19:43:36 <andythenorth> if you talk a lot it might
19:43:40 <__ln__> Does anyone know what is the (probably historical) reason that the time() function in C returns the result both through the argument and the return value?
19:43:40 <NGC3982> frosch123: And if it does, you really need an emergency beam-up to the infirmary.
19:44:21 <NGC3982> __ln__: You know what, that line of text you just wrote works fine even without the ().
19:44:30 <NGC3982> __ln__: although, in cosmological physics.
19:44:47 * NGC3982 is still getting used to correct usage of capital letters.
19:45:04 <Pinkbeast> ln: Some things are like that because of unifying SYSV and BSD practice. At a guess, it could be that. Or not - don't take that as read.
19:45:29 <NGC3982> andythenorth: ..If that's not a bad idea. My thoughts on what you wrote was that you wanted more smoke?
19:45:39 * andythenorth ponders signing up andythenorthisquitting.blogspot.com
19:45:52 <andythenorth> or should I use wordpress.com :P
19:46:10 * NGC3982 takes that as a sign to shut up and look at the cute boats.
19:46:12 <andythenorth> I could get a proper domain
19:46:20 <andythenorth> tt-forums-is-shut.net
19:46:31 <andythenorth> andythenorth-has-gone-off-in-a-huff.com
19:46:37 *** ErichEckner has left #openttd
19:47:09 <andythenorth> should have been tt-foundry-is-shut.net :P
19:47:15 * andythenorth has been awake too long
19:47:17 <andythenorth> and coding too long
19:47:24 <Pinkbeast> We'd be lost if you went, andy, we'd have to chain Pikka to a desk and feed him dry bread.
19:47:32 <andythenorth> he's gone already
19:47:51 <NGC3982> Well, somebody's got to IRC.
19:48:01 <NGC3982> Who else but Andy! (Quagmire!)
19:48:19 <planetmaker> when I go to canada I'll try to meet two people: Belugas and DanMacK :-)
19:48:46 <frosch123> is that a far wish, or a specific plan?
19:49:24 <NGC3982> planetmaker: What are your business in Peace'N'Elk land?
19:50:08 <planetmaker> I've no business there
19:50:21 <planetmaker> except it's supposedly nice there and a place to be ;-)
19:50:50 <NGC3982> You mean, your business is recreation.
19:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more southern than here :)
19:51:06 <NGC3982> And i guess Canada is a great place for that.
19:51:48 <NGC3982> The Swedish SIFO institute conclude every five years how countries in the world are similar to Sweden.
19:51:56 <NGC3982> Canada has been #1 the last six times.
19:52:12 <NGC3982> Though, South Korea might change that trend.
19:52:36 * NGC3982 ponders on the oddness of Denmark, Finland or Norway never having a better result then Canada or South Korea.
19:52:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The FISH page on tt-foundry is broke :P
19:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, when i think about sweden, then i certainly immediately associate it with south korea :p
19:53:16 <FLHerne> "Error Value: truck_intro_date", apparently...?
19:53:31 *** glx is now known as Guest1413
19:53:45 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, that's the thing.
19:53:52 <__ln__> beady eyes, flappy heads
19:54:36 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: But yes, it's actually true. The institute looks for similarities in standards, voting, social norms, fashion, media, hype's and stuff like that.
19:55:49 <andythenorth> FLHerne: try the FISH page again
19:56:27 <NGC3982> Oh look, a coal truck!
19:57:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, it's a big table now :-)
19:57:43 <FLHerne> What exactly was a truck_intro_date error? :P
19:59:59 <andythenorth> copy and paste code from BANDIT
20:00:07 <andythenorth> failed to update it
20:00:57 <FLHerne> Ah. Thought it made little sense in relation to ships :-)
20:01:24 <andythenorth> I should add a 'smoke_type' variable to that table
20:01:38 <__ln__> would anybody want to host r30k party in canada?
20:02:28 <frosch123> maybe rather in south korea?
20:02:29 <andythenorth> we should add up all the newgrf revs
20:02:33 <andythenorth> wonder what we get?
20:08:14 <andythenorth> as total revs on newgrfs
20:08:55 <andythenorth> @calc 883 + 2860 + 771 + 204 + 553
20:09:10 <andythenorth> FISH + FIRS + HEQS + CHIPS + BANDIT
20:10:56 <DorpsGek> NGC3982: Error: 'googolplex' is not a defined function.
20:11:06 <DorpsGek> NGC3982: Error: 'googol' is not a defined function.
20:11:46 * FLHerne finally gets his spaghetti m4 to work properly (ish) :-)
20:12:14 <NGC3982> frosch123: r..googol?
20:12:39 <NGC3982> planetmaker: You can't make cake's. You make planets.
20:12:40 <frosch123> you need reasonable goals :p
20:12:57 <NGC3982> r^googol is actually pretty defined in some papers ive read.
20:12:59 <frosch123> NGC3982: the cake was not that hard
20:13:07 <NGC3982> frosch123: The cake is a lie.
20:13:23 <NGC3982> (Since PM only made the planet housing the people who made it).
20:13:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Looking at FIRS thread, have you properly considered cargo production varying by day of week? :D
20:14:01 <NGC3982> I was to make a fantabulous joke about PM making lot's of the planets in my star systems. Although, i noted that it might be sexually intepreted, and ..Well, yeah.
20:14:05 <frosch123> NGC3982: no, the cage was actually in the earth since the creation
20:14:12 <frosch123> we only digged the hole to get it
20:14:19 <NGC3982> frosch123: Ah, i see.
20:14:31 <NGC3982> frosch123: What? Since when can nerds dig?
20:14:48 <frosch123> we tried to build some railtrack
20:15:12 <frosch123> but missed the direction
20:15:22 <NGC3982> I remember that from school. We had this competition on who made the deepest hole.
20:15:36 <frosch123> anyway, iirc a googol is 10^10
20:15:38 <NGC3982> It's really hard to shovel-dig deep. Very.
20:15:46 <frosch123> while a xxx-plex is 10^xxx
20:15:54 <frosch123> or was it 100^100 ?
20:16:02 <NGC3982> frosch123: No. A Googol is 1.0*(10^100)
20:16:08 <planetmaker> 10^10 is not much. Only 10 billion
20:16:29 <NGC3982> A Googolplex is 10^Googol.
20:17:38 * NGC3982 really loves the Cosmos episode where Mr. Sagan explains how much a Googol is.
20:17:57 <frosch123> i read it in some disc world science book
20:18:03 <frosch123> which was pretty boring otherwise
20:18:08 <frosch123> i think it was for americans
20:18:11 <NGC3982> frosch123: If you find number's a treat, you should take a look at the last level of Graham's number.
20:18:41 <frosch123> i stopped with number, when i learned what the axiom of choice really means
20:19:11 <frosch123> and that all beginners are tricked into it being something intuitive
20:19:31 <NGC3982> Well, using Googol's or Graham's is just arbitrary fun, and are way to uncertain to ever be usefull (in most cases).
20:20:07 <frosch123> in fact it is easy to proof that a pile of sheets on a desk cannot be well-ordered
20:20:07 <NGC3982> Although, Graham's number (in high levels) are actually used in propability equations for coplanar vertices.
20:20:55 <frosch123> NGC3982: is one graham more than busy-beaver(10) ?
20:21:41 <NGC3982> frosch123: There are more digits in the last levels of Graham numbers, than there are possible Planck events in the known universe.
20:22:27 <NGC3982> If you could visualize the Grahams number, your head would turn in to a singularity. A black hole.
20:22:35 <NGC3982> And that's not fiction, it would actually.
20:23:10 <frosch123> i am quite sure busy-beaver grows faster than graham
20:24:06 <NataS> more accurately, if could visualize a grahms number, your brain would have to outmass the universe
20:24:11 <NataS> and thus be a black hole
20:24:50 <NGC3982> First, the mass needed to store that amount of data outshines the mass of the known universe, yes.
20:24:56 <NGC3982> Though, entropy doesnt need size
20:25:05 <NGC3982> But entropy can create black holes.
20:25:34 <NataS> if your brain was big enough, it would collapse on itself and become a black hole.
20:25:50 <NataS> it's not the number itself, but the size needed to represent it
20:26:24 <NGC3982> If "big" is a huge mass per inch.
20:26:38 <NataS> even if it was the size of the universe
20:26:47 <NGC3982> NataS: Yes, according to the laws that create singularities with huges quantity of mass.
20:27:08 <NataS> a universe volume of brain would collapse into a singularity
20:27:23 <NataS> if it had the same density as the human brain
20:27:28 <NGC3982> Though (and this has not been validated fully yet), you can in some sense (or at least one should) have more entropy then what already exists.
20:27:38 <NGC3982> NataS: Yes, true. Again.
20:28:06 <NataS> also, a universe sized brian would be useless
20:28:14 <NataS> because of the speed of light
20:29:01 <frosch123> i just randomly mentioned busy-beaver as big function...
20:29:02 <NataS> >Specific integers known to be far larger than Graham's number have since appeared in many serious mathematical proofs
20:29:09 <frosch123> but busy-beaver is actually related to graham :o
20:29:25 <NataS> I mean brainwaves can only travel at the speed of light
20:29:45 <NataS> and the universe is billions of lightyears across
20:30:00 <NGC3982> NataS: For a being as big as us, or a being as big as the known universe - Are you sure that person would feel any difference?
20:30:17 <NataS> it would be really slow tohugh
20:31:14 <NGC3982> The thing is - No, it wouldn't. The beauty of relativity would make the being feel exactly the way you do right now.
20:31:27 <NGC3982> To us small beings, he would be really (really) slow.
20:31:59 <NGC3982> An atom sized being (not taking quantum stuff in consideration) would see us humans the same way. Really slow.
20:32:37 <NGC3982> But still, you (in your concious size) don't feel slow, right? :)
20:33:51 <NataS> i like how the last digit is 7
20:33:56 <andythenorth> how many dimensions are you slow in? :P
20:34:09 <andythenorth> what if there are other dimensions, where you are also quick?
20:34:12 <andythenorth> due to being small?
20:34:15 <NataS> and how there is a practical use for numbers larger than the universe
20:34:27 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Three. The speed of light demands three dimensions to be measured in our current context.
20:34:32 * andythenorth stops with half-remembered poincarre :P
20:34:46 <andythenorth> you can't measure the speed of light
20:34:57 <andythenorth> there is demonstrably no way to do it
20:35:21 <NGC3982> Is this some sort of semantic guesture?
20:35:36 <NataS> so 299,792,458 m/s is just an estimate?
20:35:48 <andythenorth> it's probably locally valid
20:36:02 <andythenorth> but amongst other things, you have no way to know if your measuring rods changed
20:36:05 <NataS> a lot of things count on it
20:36:17 <NGC3982> Please don't teach him stuff before you Google what you are saying.
20:36:34 <NataS> well there is technically no way to measure anything
20:36:43 <NataS> BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PROVE REALITY ITSELF IS REAL!
20:37:00 <NataS> easy way out of any debate
20:37:30 <andythenorth> meh that's bollocks
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20:37:52 <andythenorth> physics leads to philosophy
20:37:57 <NataS> the only thing that cannot be proven empirically is reality itself.
20:38:04 <NGC3982> The speed of light (observing virtual particles with no mass) gives a (measurable) speed of little c, the speed of light.
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20:38:12 <NataS> which sadly is the foundation that all knowledge rests on
20:38:38 <andythenorth> what does 'proven' mean?
20:38:59 <andythenorth> do you mean proven like logical positivists do?
20:39:01 <NataS> so you have to make one assumption before you can test your falsifiable predictions.
20:39:06 <NGC3982> andythenorth: What on earth make you say that little 'c' isnt measurable?
20:39:07 <andythenorth> like CERN scientists do?
20:39:33 <andythenorth> NGC3982: provide an experiment to reliably measure it
20:40:25 <NataS> what if that FTL neutrino thing turned out to be because they got the speed of light wrong?
20:40:35 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Ok, how many of them do you want to see? The CERN>Gran Sasso one, The Silicon Valley>Moon Reflection experiment? The GPS satellite syndrom or the Diamon Light Source Accountability experiments?
20:40:50 <NGC3982> andythenorth: You are talking about 'observing' the speed of light.
20:41:20 <NGC3982> The difference is as big as the FISH Maddalena Ferry.
20:41:28 <NataS> actually, technacly that's exactly what happened
20:41:30 <andythenorth> I want to see the one that isn't a measurement of the two-way speed of light
20:41:45 <NataS> the timer was off slightly
20:42:03 <andythenorth> you think I make this stuff up? :P
20:42:22 <andythenorth> there are problems with the round trip approach
20:42:27 <NataS> and I want to see the earth's core instead of being told it's a ball of crystallized iron
20:42:36 <NataS> but that's how science works
20:42:50 <NataS> you fill in the gaps between the untestable things with testable things.
20:42:54 <NGC3982> As you can read in the article you paste, the speed is measurable, but not in a one-way route.
20:43:05 <NGC3982> Does that mean the speed of light can not be defined by experiments?
20:43:07 <andythenorth> and you have no idea what that means
20:43:13 <andythenorth> it only tells you the average speed of light
20:43:27 <frosch123> can we fix that by rebooting the universe?
20:43:28 <NataS> so you are saying light might speed up and slow down
20:43:32 <andythenorth> of course it might
20:43:40 <NataS> so what does this mean?
20:43:48 <NataS> is there a falsafiable prediction?
20:43:58 <NataS> could this imply other things?
20:44:10 <andythenorth> light might travel via a wormhole in one direction
20:44:23 <andythenorth> light might be deflected by gravity in interesting ways
20:44:42 <andythenorth> light might simply travel faster in one direction than another, as we're still not sure if there's an aether or not
20:44:48 <NataS> light is deformed by gravity in intresting ways
20:45:04 <andythenorth> which could lead to different length paths
20:45:05 <NGC3982> NataS: Light speed (as in little c) is calculated entirely theoreticly, since it resembles the speed of light in a vacuum. Since no such thing exists, a perfect observed speed can be measured. Although, measuring a two-way route to get closer to the decimal points is used, and it is very effective.
20:45:12 <NataS> no I'm pretty sure GPS satilites prove the Aether does not exist every day
20:45:32 <NataS> yeah, I just think Andy's beeing silly
20:45:48 * NGC3982 goes for his laundry.
20:46:14 <NataS> And the concept is still cool for science fiction
20:46:38 <NGC3982> Ah, pew. I thought you were talking about Eter.
20:46:44 <andythenorth> the universe might have expanded during the two-way trip
20:46:45 * NGC3982 does five hell mary's
20:46:53 <andythenorth> so the distance is further on the return leg
20:46:54 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Yes, and that can be taken into account.
20:47:04 <andythenorth> using which frame of reference?
20:47:23 <NGC3982> A two-way route, and the distance and (possible) expansion in your calculation.
20:47:27 <andythenorth> ultimately this isn't empirical
20:47:47 <NGC3982> No, of course you can't measure it to a Googolplex of digits.
20:47:48 <Pinkbeast> I think this is getting into Popper territory
20:47:58 <andythenorth> staying away from Popper :P
20:48:05 <andythenorth> Popper probably wrong
20:48:45 * andythenorth should find the Poincare book
20:52:37 <andythenorth> slightly nutty 'conspiracy of light' website
20:53:02 <andythenorth> just remember that once upon a time Aristotelean physics was incontrovertibly true :P
20:53:28 <andythenorth> and I don't mean in a wooly, moral relativism way
20:53:40 <andythenorth> I mean in a people-doing-science way
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20:55:15 <NGC3982> By the way, the Genve > Gran Sasso experiments are one-way.
20:55:35 <NGC3982> Or well, as a part of the experiment, of course.
20:57:23 <Pinkbeast> NGC: But andy's right that in current understanding it is impossible in principle to measure.
20:57:31 <NataS> could a quantim computer read Graham's number?
20:57:54 <Pinkbeast> ... I just tend to feel that the assumptions you have to make to invalidate two-way measurements are, well, we're in to Popper again.
20:59:01 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: No, it is not. What is possible is apparently use different definitions of the word "measure".
21:00:52 <NGC3982> You cannot observe it, but you can measure it with respects to the things around it. Although, the rules of measuring anything according to the scientific method, never give you the exact value (since no such thing exists with particle speeds).
21:01:22 <NGC3982> Using that last bit to claim that little c can't be measured is semantics.
21:03:31 <NGC3982> This is actually talked about in one of Brady Haran's latest Sixty Symbols, where the difference between "observe" and "measure" in the respect of little c, is explained.
21:04:18 * NGC3982 did not enjoy andy going to bed, since he had new ideas regarding FISH boat smoke.
21:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "little c"?
21:07:16 <NataS> the speed of electromagnetic radiation in a vacuum to be precise
21:07:18 <NGC3982> And sorry, im using fuzzy terminology.
21:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> why does that need specifying "little"?
21:08:02 <Rubidium> speed of light doesn't need to be measured
21:08:22 <Rubidium> it's, by definition, 299.792.458 m/s
21:09:13 <Rubidium> you can, however, measure the actual length of a metre
21:09:59 <Rubidium> and the duration of a second
21:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but you may want to make the reverse calculation in order to check if you made any obvious mistakes
21:11:18 <NGC3982> Is this a new semantics discussion? When we talked about measuring in the sense, we talk about defining the speed of objects that should propagate in c, if a real vakuum was present.
21:12:10 <NGC3982> And i think it's supposed to be "vacuum"
21:12:22 <planetmaker> depends on language
21:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yes. in modern day physics, the length of a meter is defined by speed of light, not the other way around
21:13:12 <Rubidium> well, if the speed of light changes then the length of a metre changes. Not the speed of light. Merely due to the way metres and it's derivatives (incl. inches) are defined
21:13:30 <planetmaker> Rubidium: only if the speed of light in vacuum changes ;-)
21:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the point of that is that you need a way to reproduce the length of a meter in all locations on earth, carrying around a brick of metal is problematic in that sort of thing
21:14:41 <Rubidium> lets just make caesium 133 have more frequent periods of radiation ;)
21:15:43 <Rubidium> will be fun if seconds and meters are half as long
21:16:07 <Rubidium> uhm, seconds half as long, metres the double length
21:16:31 <Rubidium> ah well, too late to think about that
21:16:42 <NGC3982> Or if the Caesium 133 suddenly had the half life of 135.
21:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how convinced are we that the universe is expanding, and not the speed of light falling?
21:17:24 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: We would not see structures nor light in the far bits of space.
21:17:47 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: We would not see structures nor light in a classical way, in the far bits of space.
21:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> we do not see structures or light in a classical way, in the far bits of space
21:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we see light that was created billions of years ago
21:18:32 <NGC3982> Yes, we do? Spectral analisys still works?
21:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with each other?
21:22:19 <NGC3982> Defining the expansion: 1. Define spectral analysis calibration locally. 2. Define the spectral analysis at distances where expansions seems to have decent effects. 3. Compare the values for normal elements both locally and far way (like, hydrogen). 4. If they do not match, the speed of light (or the measurement of the expansion) is incorrect. If they match, actual distances have been recorded.
21:23:37 <NGC3982> This question was stated by Hubble, and he made some (early) experiments as the above.
21:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "someone with a famous name said it. it must be true."
21:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i must have missed the point of science
21:29:27 <NGC3982> Hubble made the initial statement, but redshift and the expansion of the universe is pretty (darn) looked into.
21:33:05 <NGC3982> And yes, the things that WMAP observed gives a (good Sigma, for that part) high level of probability factor, that the Hubble Constant is valid, and that the measurements in dark energy proves the expansion of the universe.
21:33:11 <NGC3982> And also it's acceleration.
21:34:00 <NGC3982> On the other hand, stating that the speed of light would be different in places "far away" is some kind of laugh at Ockhams razor, and the principle of science.
21:34:06 <NGC3982> Thank you, and good night.
21:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> not different spaces. different times
21:39:15 <NGC3982> Far away = Different times.
21:40:05 <NGC3982> Thus, if a spectography at a 300.000 year old universe gives the same answer as 13,74 billion year old universe
21:40:16 <NGC3982> ..You have defined the speed of light from time A to B.
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22:04:35 <V453000> TRAIN_FLAG_NO_BREAKDOWN_SMOKE what is that for? :D
22:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: horse drawn vehicles?
22:08:58 <Mazur> I didn't know we had horses draw our icons?
22:30:53 <FLHerne> Is there a way to use an argument of the parent macro, or is that complete nonsense? :P
22:33:13 <agaran> from what i remember about m4 there was way to expand arguments and evaluate again
22:34:55 <agaran> hmm, astrophysics here too,
22:36:05 * FLHerne should probably go and sleep
22:36:21 <agaran> NGC3982: i looked at your nick, sorry if i sound rude, just on one channnel people were discussing astrophysics (not related to channel) and here noticed your nick..
22:49:34 <agaran> why funding local road reconstruction dont change amount of company owned roads, if city rebuild them too?
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