IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-02
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00:25:47 <Beul> michi_cc: Are you using GRF version 8 or container version 2? (You do if you use NML nightlies instead of 0.2) Both are 1.2.0+ only. --> checks NML version --> goes ahead and remove lines like these: if (openttd_version > version_openttd(1, 2, 0, 22713)) {
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07:23:12 <Terkhen> maybe it should be pinned somewhere
07:25:22 <andythenorth> the player doesn't seem particularly silly
07:25:33 <andythenorth> but hasn't really understood the world of newgrfs
07:25:55 <NGC3982> i was in the exact same situation
07:28:55 <andythenorth> I didn't at all trust newgrf when I started playing openttd
07:49:15 <Terkhen> I tried some industry NeGR
07:49:45 <Terkhen> NewGRFs but I did not like them
07:50:13 <Terkhen> so I did not use newgrfs until firs
08:00:29 <andythenorth> I tried just a few at first
08:00:34 <andythenorth> then I tried putting lots together
08:09:15 <NGC3982> just downloaded all the content i could find, mashing it all together on a single game
08:09:38 <NGC3982> always resultet in a broken game
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08:56:22 <NGC3982> i have this command line server setup at home (windows)
08:56:34 <NGC3982> i havent set a rcon password
08:56:41 <NGC3982> how can i change console settings? :(
09:07:22 <NGC3982> oh, i can do that just like that?
09:08:28 <NGC3982> although, i seem unable to change parameters
09:08:55 <NGC3982> does a successfull command echo something?
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09:48:53 <cmircea> Anyone have clipping issues with New Bridges? The bridges appear cut and some sprites appear randomly under the bridges.
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10:21:17 <Terkhen> cmircea: which bridge newgrf are you using?
10:21:47 <Terkhen> sounds like a newgrf specific issue to me
10:26:35 <Terkhen> it also might be outdated
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11:26:49 <Beul> Terkhen, NGC3982, I would certainly agree that a a topic on how to select new grfs, as well as al list of grfs that work well together sould be out there
11:28:16 <Beul> because I think we all tried a lot before comming to the ones we like to use now, and new players would maybe not want to do that, or might even get frustrated at grfs not working togheter or breaking the game
11:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Beul: it's impossible to keep such a list up-to-date
11:38:02 <planetmaker> Beul: and for the reasons Eddi lined out: it's rather the good grf author's responsibility to make the grf behave graciously in all cases :-)
11:38:07 <Beul> that is true, but then maybe a topic people could post combinations they use?
11:38:18 <planetmaker> like you could check for known incompatible newgrfs and issue a warning
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11:39:23 <Beul> that is true planetmaker, but in a lot of cases the grf author is not active anymore, so could not do that...
11:40:30 <Beul> or maybe it is easier, and more clear just to explain that usually using multiple traksets/roadsets/industry sets in one game is not a good idea
11:41:01 <planetmaker> Beul: sure enough. It's always the responsibility of the newer grfs to check for it :-)
11:41:25 <planetmaker> thus every author's responsibility to test *his* (or her) newgrf for that
11:41:40 <planetmaker> if always done, old newgrfs need no update :)
11:43:01 <Beul> but on the other hand, no single warning/adivise/testing would make the problem go away, as a lot of people just don't like reading readme's, warnings, and introductions :p
11:43:41 <Beul> for most people the case is: if ALL else fails: read the manual
11:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Beul: just because someone uses it, doesn't mean they work together
11:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you moderate such a topic, weeding out "bad" examples?
11:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Beul: and if people don't read readmes, warnings and introductions, how do you expect them to read this topic?
12:15:04 <Beul> as for the first two points Eddi|zuHause, I agree, as for the third, that is what I meant :p
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12:31:12 <Beul> Eddi|zuHauseL seems like somebody did not add the correct catenary sprites to that picture:p
12:35:03 <Wakou> I was just on the forum, Google Chrome reports that pikkrail is a site known to distribute malware?
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12:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wakou: google is always right.
12:52:37 <planetmaker> FF reports the same, though
12:52:41 <planetmaker> but might be same source
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13:20:00 <TomyLobo> since no one answers, maybe you're asking the wrong question
13:22:09 <Beul> nightmarez: * Topic is '1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask
13:23:04 <__ln__> nightmarez: you have spoken awfully many lines with barely any meaningful content.
13:23:29 <nightmarez> okay but, do i have to talk english if i normally speak an other language?
13:24:35 <TomyLobo> everyone here speaks english, but only a subset speaks <other language>
13:24:36 <__ln__> speaking something else than english here will cause panic and anarchy.
13:24:48 <TomyLobo> it's in your own interest to speak english
13:24:55 <planetmaker> this is an English speaking support channel
13:25:12 <nightmarez> okay well i found a glitch....
13:25:17 <planetmaker> other languages are not welcome to be talked in public here. And no, most of us are no native speakers
13:25:18 <TomyLobo> talking about english: what i just said was probably bad english :D
13:26:07 <planetmaker> what is it, nightmarez?
13:26:43 <nightmarez> ill just check again but its a train... it wont fill more than 72%
13:27:04 <nightmarez> and i have no plugin.
13:27:09 <planetmaker> you have a train with different cargos?
13:27:20 <planetmaker> and still set to full load?
13:27:52 <planetmaker> full load means 100% :-) Thus it won't leave, if it can't fill all cargo slots and one cargo it needs for 100% is not available at the station
13:27:58 <planetmaker> use "full load any" then
13:28:44 <nightmarez> if i put another train in it will fill to full
13:29:14 <nightmarez> and i do not change the order.
13:30:28 <planetmaker> that's not something I can judge just by an explanation. It needs a savegame to see, nightmarez
13:32:46 <nightmarez> well okay its millennium when it goes to the farm it will only fill 72% and then its stops.
13:34:52 <NGC3982> bah, i finally understand the ECS+UKRS2 gameplay
13:35:00 <NGC3982> took me two weeks and lots of restarts.
13:35:28 <TomyLobo> nightmarez did you set it to "fully load *any* cargo" or "fully load *all* cargo"?
13:35:33 <NGC3982> ferrying passengers like cattle seems to be the golden calf of the game.
13:36:13 <planetmaker> my suggestion is to first ask in the forums... in any case, supply the savegame :-)
13:37:13 <planetmaker> (and yes, people here might then read it, especially if you provide the posting link here, too ;-) )
13:38:40 <nightmarez> (unload and wait for full load)
13:41:26 <nightmarez> (full load any cargo)
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15:00:22 <fuz> I have a railway with two rails (one for each direction)
15:00:39 <fuz> I have another track that goes into a different direction but has only one rail
15:00:46 <fuz> It is to be operated in both directions
15:00:54 <fuz> THese two rails eventually join
15:01:00 <fuz> What signals should I use?
15:05:14 <arvenius> there should be plenty of railway tutorial vids on youtube
15:05:38 <fuzxl> arvenius: I prefer written documentation
15:05:43 <fuzxl> Is there something on the wiki?
15:05:58 <fuzxl> The pages I saw are not very explanative
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15:06:40 <arvenius> most of the wiki pages i saw were related to technical stuff not actual gameplay
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15:07:51 <Jame334|2> How can I increase my profits? Right now I'm not making enough to satisfy myself
15:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> arvenius: it's a wiki. put the stuff there...
15:08:37 <TomyLobo> fuzxl my personal choice for that would be one-way signals on the main line and no signals but one on the 2-way line
15:09:00 <TomyLobo> that one signal on the 2-way line would be a path signal right where it joins with the main line
15:09:02 <arvenius> just said i cant help
15:09:12 <fuzxl> What kind of singnl do I need for the one-track-line?
15:09:13 <arvenius> i doubt what i came up with in my games is close to an ideal solution =)
15:09:39 <fuzxl> BTW, what have people used before path signals?
15:09:51 <TomyLobo> fuzxl uh, when i said "2-way line", i meant the one-track line that's operated in both directions :)
15:10:07 <TomyLobo> fuzxl archeologists are still unsure
15:10:19 <TomyLobo> probably dinosaur bones
15:11:12 <Jame334|2> Is there a way to increase my profits while not making a lot of expenses?
15:11:18 <Jame334|2> Sorry, very new at this game
15:11:35 <fuzxl> Jame334|2: You could cheat
15:11:39 <TomyLobo> fuzxl seriously though, i think it was just a 2-way normal signal to delimit the entire one-track line
15:12:06 <Jame334|2> fuzxl: I would first like to get a grip of this game
15:12:09 <TomyLobo> so yeah, like fuzxl said, cheat :P
15:12:16 <TomyLobo> airplanes = cheat :D
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15:14:35 <Jame334|2> I had ato level some ground and now the city council refuses to give me a permit, how can I win them back?
15:15:48 <Jame334|2> Got it, planting trees
15:17:47 <Jame334|2> Hope that this pays back the gigantic loan that I took
15:19:18 <Jame334|2> The plane crashed on it's second flight
15:22:07 <fuzxl> Jame334|2: Big planes have a 5% propability to crash on small airports
15:22:28 <Jame334|2> Just checked the wiki, seems like the FFP is a large plane
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15:26:52 <Jame334|2> wow, this is insanely profitable
15:28:36 <Terkhen> yes, I usually prefer coal trains as moneymakers because planes are too easy
15:32:07 <Jame334|2> ANy tips on how to build tracks over large distances?
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15:36:32 <fuzxl> Jame334|2: Avoid bends and height changes.
15:36:38 <fuzxl> They slow down your trains
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15:41:48 <Jame334|2> My damn long range train won't move
15:46:02 <Jame334|2> Do I have to but signs up or something?
15:46:13 <Jame334|2> Cause it took on the cargo, but won't take it to the destination
15:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you need signals if you have more than one train
15:47:31 <Jame334|2> Those tracks aren't connected to any other tracks
15:47:58 <Jame334|2> Yet it took the cargo and then just sat in the depot
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15:55:20 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24368 /trunk/src/table/railtypes.h: -Fix (r24367): Silence GCC warnings.
15:55:34 <frosch123> most annoying warning ever
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16:00:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt FIRS industry location, I'm happy with the current state;
16:00:33 <andythenorth> I've had a number of proposals for other schemes, but they differ wildly from each other
16:01:09 * andythenorth considers a parameter option
16:14:53 <TomyLobo> even the short route from one end of the city to the other yields some nice amounts of money
16:15:07 <TomyLobo> oops, forgot to hit save :D
16:18:44 <Jame334|2> I just have a bunch of little towns scattered around
16:19:19 * NGC3982 found the shift-location-click and is amazed.
16:20:19 <fuzxl> Is it a good idea to configure your bus routes to not drop off passengers till the very last station?
16:21:20 <NGC3982> fuzxl: that depends. passenger and cargo payments are determined by how fast you can bring stuff from a to b.
16:21:53 <planetmaker> fuzxl: that depends ;-)
16:21:54 <NGC3982> fuzxl: you can calculate if its worth it or not, by using the cargo payment list.
16:22:08 <planetmaker> On what you want, on how big you can make your bus stations and on how much pax they get
16:23:26 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24369 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r24361): Unused stuff is unused.
16:25:06 <andythenorth> unamused cat is unamused
16:27:25 <planetmaker> did you replace it by a rich dog?
16:29:05 <fuzxl> NGC3982: planetmaker: Thank you!
16:29:45 <fuzxl> Is there any difference between semaphores and light signals apart from cosmetics?
16:31:23 <fuzxl> I love semaphores; they look much nicer
16:31:37 <NGC3982> fuzxl: "Semaphores are a type of signal with a different, old-style, appearance and the same function as a regular signal."
16:31:56 * NGC3982 thinks they are mostly in the ..way of things.
16:32:48 <NGC3982> fuzxl: i quoted the wiki, answering your question.
16:33:45 <NGC3982> and that i think they are ugly. :p
16:33:57 <fuzxl> I mean the comment; 18:31 * NGC3982 thinks they are mostly in the ..way of things.
16:34:11 <fuzxl> I think semaphores have a nicer look than light signals
16:34:25 <fuzxl> BTW, is the design of the path signals inspired from reality?
16:35:01 <frosch> the sprites? unlikely :p
16:35:29 <fuzxl> Are there actual path signs on real railways?
16:35:48 <planetmaker> fuzxl: signs != signals
16:35:52 <planetmaker> mind the difference :-)
16:36:21 * NGC3982 have yet to try a signal NewGRF.
16:36:38 <fuzxl> English is not my native language (as you might've probably found out already)
16:37:10 <NGC3982> you dont have to worry about that. these people are probably already pissed enough on my swenglish rantings.
16:37:22 <planetmaker> nor mine :-) But as you used "signals" before, I'm not sure whether you mean it also when you say "signs"
16:37:28 <NGC3982> no pun intended on that last part *shrugs*
17:00:18 <cmircea> Lovely when your whole network is deadlocked because of a stupid junction
17:02:23 <cmircea> What's a good junction capable of two lanes per direction yet not taking up too much space?
17:02:29 <andythenorth> just use one track per train
17:03:49 <Terkhen> I just make a simple cross with path signals, I never had a network big enough to need a proper junction
17:04:12 <cmircea> I have abotu 200 trains going through that junction alone
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17:09:43 * Terkhen never had more than 100 trains
17:09:52 <Terkhen> I suggest checking openttdcoop's wiki
17:10:48 <cmircea> I reduced the number of trains to 76, but they are now all 5 tiles long. Also removed some junk that was wasting money.
17:10:59 <cmircea> Still way more than the junction can handle, hang on
17:11:53 <andythenorth> see that nice river? Use that instead ;)
17:11:53 <cmircea> I *could* remove the pax trains too, but I think airports would cost me a fortune in maintenance and there are just a few towns.
17:12:05 <cmircea> andythenorth, that's gonna be real fast...
17:12:20 <andythenorth> coal doesn't mind waiting
17:12:25 <andythenorth> [may not be true]
17:12:35 <cmircea> Coal doesn't go there.
17:12:43 <cmircea> Oil, goods and pax go through there. A shitload of oil.
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17:13:18 <Jame334|2> I'm a newby, would it be disasterous to join a multiplayer game?
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17:14:12 <cmircea> Ok I'll reload an older save. I still need to fix that junction. The worst part is the city towards west, it's very close.
17:14:23 <cmircea> Not sure if I can move the station.
17:15:04 <cmircea> Never underestimate the power of the magic dozer.
17:19:53 * andythenorth was reading a lego forum and concluded 'blah'
17:22:21 <andythenorth> frosch: can grf2html output json or something?
17:22:33 <andythenorth> I cba to migrate existing FISH vehicles to nml manually
17:24:02 <frosch> grf2html loads all data into an object tree
17:24:14 <frosch> you can also add some different output method
17:24:35 <frosch> however, i am not even sure whether grf2html trunk can process current fish
17:24:45 <frosch> grf2html is quite unmaintained :p
17:28:39 <andythenorth> "we don't have a complete spec && we don't want trouble in future" blocks newgrf features occasionally
17:28:47 <frosch> cmircea: add trains to it
17:29:05 * andythenorth wonders about builds with experimental newgrf features
17:29:07 <cmircea> If I start all trains it'll get clogged in 2 mins.
17:29:55 <andythenorth> no guarantee on trunk inclusion or maintaining backwards-compatibility
17:30:00 <frosch> and remove those lines which block other lines
17:30:22 <cmircea> I'm going to let the inner lines only go through directly, can't think of anything else to do to it.
17:30:44 <frosch> don't try to build the junction symmetrically
17:30:56 <frosch> strengthen the directions which are needed
17:31:07 <frosch> and remove the additional blocking lines for the less needed directions
17:31:47 <frosch> andythenorth: before you start a patchpack, you need patches :)
17:32:41 <andythenorth> but patches need spec
17:32:51 <andythenorth> and spec can't be complete because what's needed is not known :P
17:36:57 <Jame334|2> Wow, every server is already so set up
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17:38:33 <Jame334|2> I love how the game generates more passangers while they are on an airplane, lot of births there
17:39:39 <andythenorth> so should I patch nml to add SETX string code?
17:39:55 <andythenorth> [blocking the conversion of FISH to nml]
17:40:12 <frosch> or patch ottd to align the stuff itself
17:40:23 <andythenorth> that is the other option
17:40:29 <frosch> we dicussed dropping setx and xy already 3 years ago
17:40:42 <andythenorth> but it's part of newgrf spec so...no drop :P
17:41:00 <frosch> several things were dropped
17:41:22 <andythenorth> Dropping it will break grfs. We don't break grfs [except mine]
17:41:45 <andythenorth> but yes, it would make more sense for ottd to do it
17:42:06 <frosch> if you remove support for setx and setxy, it is more likely that you fix newgrfs :p
17:43:02 <frosch> oztrans is the only one who wants to draw an engine preview in the purchase list using setxy and custom unicode glyphs
17:43:13 <andythenorth> are there font size issues?
17:44:01 <andythenorth> I don't *want* to use setx, I just have to currently
17:44:28 <andythenorth> I've tried nbsp instead, but that has unwanted side effects :P
17:45:18 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24370 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
17:45:18 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 10 changes by telk5093
17:45:27 <frosch> suggest a new whitespace character for the unicode standard: 1 pixel
17:45:45 <frosch> there are already two dozen whitespace chars, no reason against more
17:45:52 <andythenorth> how big is a pixel anyway? :P
17:46:15 <frosch> small enough that small children could swallow it
17:46:26 <andythenorth> mine carry disclaimers
17:46:57 <frosch> only age three and above
17:47:54 <andythenorth> ottd patch would require what? Read the width of the buy menu sprite, add some padding, draw text at that location?
17:49:20 <andythenorth> FISH is built with nml -> nfo anyway
17:49:27 * andythenorth ponders mangling some nfo in
17:49:49 <andythenorth> is there an escape in nml for passing through bits of raw nfo?
17:50:18 <frosch> add a preprocessing step
17:50:33 <frosch> put [andy] into the langfile
17:50:41 <andythenorth> I could search for some string like that yes
17:50:45 <frosch> and add s/[andy]/01 bla/ to the buildscript
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17:51:15 <frosch> i think all translateable strings are zero-terminated
17:51:23 <frosch> without length byte or such
17:51:45 <andythenorth> '01 blah'.join(nfo.split('insert_setx_here'))
17:52:08 <Alberth> andythenorth: split takes a set :p
17:53:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: know anything about ottd gui code? :)
17:53:46 <frosch> see, rtl is quite native also to dutch people. the important stuff is on the right :)
17:54:03 <Alberth> (not sure how much that helps :) )
17:54:30 <Alberth> frosch: I am left-handed :)
17:54:30 <andythenorth> and be replaced with an automatic calculation of buy menu text position
17:54:36 <frosch> we removed all usages of setx within ottd years ago :p
17:54:52 <Alberth> yeah, I thought so too
17:55:01 <frosch> interestingly setxy was never used
17:55:13 <andythenorth> it's an insane feature
17:56:17 <andythenorth> frosch: Foobar's feature request is nice, but not very mission critical ;)
17:56:21 <Alberth> we make bananas scan for it, and immediately destroy any newgrf that uses it :)
17:56:43 <andythenorth> meanwhile, if Alberth wants new FISH...setx needs solving :P
17:57:18 <Alberth> we don't have it, how does it need solving then?
17:57:25 <Alberth> ot better, what needs solving?
17:57:37 <andythenorth> nfo FISH uses setx; nml doesn't support it
17:57:46 <andythenorth> or we can patch ottd to fix buy menu
17:57:58 <andythenorth> or I can mangle the nfo step of building nml fish
17:58:08 <andythenorth> the last is easiest for me
17:58:37 <andythenorth> why is 'bad' the easiest to do?\ :P
17:58:50 <Alberth> what does "patch ottd to fix buy menu" mean?
17:59:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: because we don't like easy ways?
17:59:39 <andythenorth> I intended it to be more of a meditation on the nature of good and evil ;)
18:00:07 <andythenorth> also, buy menu should get width of bounding box for vehicle sprite, add some px, then draw text at resulting position
18:01:54 <Alberth> hmm, that sounds doable
18:02:33 <Alberth> any snakes nearby that will catch any obvious way to fix it?
18:03:34 <andythenorth> I can provide test grf if that helps :P
18:04:58 <frosch> Alberth: i would hope that most stuff was already resolved for rtl
18:05:25 <frosch> alternatively it is already/still broken for rtl :p
18:05:49 <frosch> anyway, rtl already figures out some right side border of the sprite
18:06:41 <frosch> but since noone uses rtl, it might as well be broken in dozen of cases :)
18:06:49 * Alberth was thinking about "adders onder het gras" (viper just below the green grass)
18:07:56 <Alberth> do we have anything important for april 1st next year? Otherwise we can declare it rtl testing day
18:09:25 <frosch> maybe some sheik wants to pay a million if ottd will only be available in arabic for a year
18:10:45 <andythenorth> ignore the obvious "why don't you just move the ship to the left" suggestion ;)
18:10:49 <andythenorth> other ships are larger
18:12:41 <Alberth> frosch: nah, we just reverse writing direction at the entire world :p
18:13:07 <frosch> it's the more logical way for numbers anyway
18:14:47 <Alberth> schools just teach the wrong way of saying them
18:18:26 * andythenorth needs to calculate costs for ships
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18:19:19 <andythenorth> I used all kinds of stuff in a spreadsheet to work them out: number crew, fuel cost, etc
18:19:30 <andythenorth> could implement that in python
18:19:37 <andythenorth> or just copy the values from the spreadsheet :P
18:20:54 <Alberth> ok, I have a fish nightly-r219M at my screen, what is the problem?
18:22:08 <andythenorth> is that the one from the d/l I linked above?
18:22:38 <andythenorth> by about 520 revs ;)
18:22:52 <andythenorth> yeah, not that one. That one sucks :)
18:23:12 <andythenorth> try the one linked above - there's only one ship, the issue is obvious
18:26:33 <Alberth> I was trying that, but I have much fish in the ~/.openttd sea, apparently :)
18:30:07 <Alberth> ok, it looks weird. This is because bigger ships appear later in the game?
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18:32:06 <andythenorth> lateral solution: make FISH buy menu sprites less wide
18:32:50 <andythenorth> just mandate that buy menu sprites may not be larger than 70px
18:32:54 <Alberth> you want them horizontally centered, I assume?
18:33:02 <andythenorth> yes, that's what the game does
18:33:02 <frosch> make them invisible, saves lots of drawing
18:33:21 <andythenorth> I could center them myself using the bounding box
18:33:28 <frosch> some sets might want them right-aligned :p
18:33:30 <andythenorth> many sets left-align
18:33:47 <andythenorth> again, they could use the bounding box :P
18:34:02 <frosch> e.g. those trainsets which add additional icons to the sprite
18:34:05 <frosch> want to align those icons
18:34:20 * andythenorth thinks buy menu sprite size should be pre-defined by the game
18:34:41 <Alberth> by newgrf spec, perhaps
18:36:04 <Alberth> frosch: so left-align would be preferable
18:36:04 <andythenorth> it's ugly when the buy menu text moves around
18:36:41 <andythenorth> centered is better, it's how the default vehicles are drawn
18:36:56 <andythenorth> I retract my earlier statement that "I can center them myself"
18:37:41 <Alberth> only if you assume a width, which may be untrue
18:38:03 <Alberth> unless openttd has such a fixed width
18:39:08 <andythenorth> not sure - code would know I guess
18:39:11 <Alberth> ie we don't care what your sprite does, we draw text at N pixels from the left
18:41:01 <andythenorth> I can center by using same bb for all sprites, but shifting the vehicle within that bb
18:41:10 <andythenorth> unless ottd crops transparent pixels :P
18:41:35 <andythenorth> same argument applies to left / right align
18:41:56 <frosch> yeah, the center/left/right only applies when mixing sets :)
18:44:09 <NGC3982> do you people use the ctrl-click to follow trains?
18:44:12 <frosch> wondering about pondering?
18:44:34 <frosch> you just that when making yt videos
18:44:40 <cmircea> I love PBS. Some trains are reserving HALF THE MAP on the wrong direction.
18:44:56 <NGC3982> cmircea: i love it when that happends.
18:44:58 <TomyLobo> cmircea you're doing it wrong then :)
18:45:08 * NGC3982 cant seem to make a darn thing right with pbs.
18:45:18 <cmircea> I thought that 200 back-way signals would be ENOUGH of a penalty.
18:45:27 <cmircea> Without the need for one-way
18:45:34 <NGC3982> i was thinking, wouldnt it be nice to also have the minimap follow the train?
18:45:35 <TomyLobo> cmircea how about one-way signals, yeah
18:45:45 <andythenorth> it's not the same since pbs was introduced
18:45:46 <cmircea> If it were EuroStar, no problem, but it's a damn slow oil train...
18:46:00 * andythenorth misses all those clicks setting up pre-signals
18:46:05 <cmircea> wait here we go again
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18:46:25 <cmircea> What the hell is wrong with YAPF O_o
18:46:29 <frosch> NGC3982: i see, you consider it a challenge to make up usecases for useless features :p
18:46:34 <Alberth> bi-directional path signals are a pain
18:46:35 <TomyLobo> and having more than 2 signals on a track that's operated in both ways is wrong anyway
18:47:02 <Alberth> NGC3982: merge minimap with viewport, et voila
18:47:14 <TomyLobo> cause you'll get stuck trains
18:47:30 <Alberth> but getting them unstuck is such fun!
18:47:36 <frosch> Alberth: more evil would be to make the minimal follow the viewport :p
18:47:45 <frosch> and then transitively make it follow a vehicle :p
18:47:50 <TomyLobo> it involves tellingthem to ignore the signal and waiting for a month \o/
18:48:59 <TomyLobo> dont forget to buy new trains
18:49:06 <Alberth> frosch: but the merge is useful to do, and now NGC3982 has a good reason to do it
18:52:54 <cmircea> Jesus. WTF. Half the trains are going the wrong way
18:53:14 <TomyLobo> cmircea your signals are wrong then
18:53:39 <TomyLobo> (assuming you use 1.2.1 out of the box)
18:54:02 <frosch> if more than 10% of your path signals are two-way signals you are likely doing something wrong :p
18:54:03 <cmircea> I can't see anything out of place O_O
18:54:22 <TomyLobo> cmircea if you open a server, i'll check them
18:54:43 <frosch> also enable the displaying of path reservations, if you haven't yet
18:54:56 <Alberth> frosch: only using 2-way path signals is fun :p
18:55:29 <frosch> i only use them for small one-track lines
18:55:30 <cmircea> The trains seemingly refuse to switch to the outer tracks to go to right O_o
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18:55:44 <frosch> if there is no use or no space for two tracks
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18:56:49 <TomyLobo> cmircea but as a general rule: don't use any signals on a bidirectional track, except at intersections with unidirectional tracks
18:56:51 <NGC3982> frosch: what is a usecase?
18:57:00 <NGC3982> Alberth: is that possible without code?
18:57:11 <NGC3982> Alberth: im sorry, i mean: is that possible right now?
18:57:17 <frosch> a usecase is a case of use?
18:57:30 <frosch> some way to use something :p
18:57:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: build_vehicle_gui.cpp, line 913 draws text at a fixed position, and line 914 (which ends up in engine_gui.cpp, line 268) draws the engine at a fixed position
18:57:53 <TomyLobo> another general rule: don't use two-way path signals on unidirectional tracks
18:58:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: so it is not clear to me what we should do here
18:58:33 <cmircea> TomyLobo, well the pathfinder is supposed to avoid at all costs going the wrong way. Except it goes through 200 or so signals.
18:58:37 <TomyLobo> cmircea holy shit are you serious?
18:58:55 <cmircea> TomyLobo, 4 or so are unused, but yeah xD
18:59:16 <cmircea> TomyLobo, there's 3 for the city/suburban/rural stations alone.
18:59:21 <Alberth> NGC3982: what? writing a patch to merge min-map and viewport? sure it is
18:59:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: specify that newgrfs must use the default widths for each vehicle type? And drop setx?
18:59:33 <Snail> hi guys, I was trying to use var61 in my push-pull trains, so that I could swap a recoloring scheme between wagons as the train reverses
18:59:34 <TomyLobo> hrm where's the place openttd puts downloaded newgrfs to?
18:59:44 <cmircea> TomyLobo, stick them in newgrf
18:59:46 <NGC3982> Alberth: ah, it needs a patch. i didnt quite understand if that was possible in the current versions.
18:59:56 <Snail> my question is, var61 doesn't seem to support CB 2D (for recoloring)
19:00:16 <TomyLobo> cmircea where is that?
19:00:21 <Snail> can support for that CB added to var61?
19:00:31 <TomyLobo> i would put them into openttd/data
19:00:35 <andythenorth> "It is not supported during a callback that is used to modify vehicle properties to avoid circular dependencie"
19:01:11 <Snail> andy: I understand, but I'm wondering what kind of circular references CB 2D can create
19:01:39 <Alberth> TomyLobo: depends on your platform, the readme tells you exactly. It also moved to an another directory recently
19:01:40 <Snail> usually, nothing can depend on recoloring...
19:01:47 <andythenorth> recolouring can depend on recolouring
19:01:47 <frosch> peoply only allowing attaching orange wagons to orange engines
19:02:07 * andythenorth doesn't know if that one would be circular or not
19:02:28 <cmircea> TomyLobo, uh, mine are in user docs, under openttd
19:02:39 <Snail> but usually recoloring is a result of other stuff, like refitting...
19:03:04 <Alberth> Snail: yep, but "usually" != "always"
19:03:07 <frosch> everything related to callbacks settings values depend on the fact, that wagons in the back may only depend on stuff in front of them
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19:03:32 <andythenorth> why was it introduced at all?
19:03:43 <andythenorth> I recall a discussion that said 'no var 61' :P
19:03:43 <TomyLobo> cmircea ok, ottd recognizes them. ip? :)
19:03:45 <frosch> i think cets is to blame :p
19:03:48 <cmircea> TomyLobo, iconik.mine.nu
19:03:58 <Snail> var61 is very useful :p
19:04:36 <TomyLobo> i typed "connect iconik.mine.nu" on the console... "The server didn't answer the request"
19:04:41 <Snail> at least it can change the graphics of stuff. Recoloring would be easier, but still, I can reach my aim by manually drawing a new real sprite with the colors I choose
19:04:47 <cmircea> what ports does ottd use?
19:04:50 <Snail> just, recoloring would be quicker :p
19:05:00 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:05:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: I seem to remember discussions with RB involving setx removal, they were full of tricky edge cases iirc
19:05:28 <Alberth> TomyLobo: depends on what services you want to have
19:05:41 <michi_cc> Snail: Looks like 2D was simply overlooked, I can't find any place where a NewGRF could read the resulting value, so it seems to be safe.
19:06:30 <frosch> newgrfs can only read the default company colours then?
19:06:46 <Snail> michi_cc: ok, that sounds great
19:06:48 <frosch> hmm.. might be the case, since custom recolour sprites would desync anyway :p
19:07:07 <Snail> so perhaps it can be added to the CBs supported by var61?
19:07:41 <michi_cc> frosch: Can't find any place where Vehicle::colourmap is read outside the drawing routines.
19:08:15 <frosch> michi_cc: yes, it makes sense; static newgrfs would change the number of custom recolour sprites, so it should not be accessible after all :)
19:08:51 * Alberth gives TomyLobo a rope to hang on to
19:09:26 <michi_cc> Besides, I can't find any recolour *property* either, so 2D is obviously not a CB modifying vehicle properties.
19:10:14 <cmircea> TomyLobo, trains from oil on the far right going to the major city top, will end up in a depot before the large city on the lower left.
19:10:28 <cmircea> TomyLobo, or, worse, reserve all track from the oil field to the refinery.
19:11:08 <frosch> michi_cc: it's no present in ttd, since ttd always used the same ccs
19:11:12 <TomyLobo> cmircea so you forwarded port 3979 tcp+udp?
19:13:42 <cmircea> TomyLobo, the track is shared by a bunch of trains, but double track ought to handle much more than what I have
19:13:51 <frosch> hmm, now i am wondering about rerandomisation
19:17:52 <frosch> i am sure we discussed that before :p but currently i think CBID_RANDOM_TRIGGER should take the same a123 route as CBID_NO_CALLBACK
19:18:35 <michi_cc> So you'd say CBID_RANDOM_TRIGGER should allow var 61 as well?
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19:20:11 <michi_cc> If you say so :) I know exactly that: "Set when calling a randomizing trigger (almost undocumented)."
19:21:12 <Snail> so which nightly will have this implemented? the one being released tomorrow?
19:21:59 <frosch> today's for sure not :p
19:22:09 <michi_cc> Depends on your timezone :)
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19:23:07 <Beul> where is the origin of the sloped sprites for traintracks supposed to be?
19:23:50 <Beul> I am busy with sprite allignment and manage to fix all other sprites, but the sloped track overlay sprites have just disapeared
19:23:56 <frosch> i would guess for the north corner of the tile
19:24:41 <frosch> might also vary by 8 pixels vertically
19:24:55 <frosch> but i am quite sure about the horizontal offset
19:25:24 <Beul> well, i recovered my sprites from all over the place, some of by 30 px, but the slopes have just disapeared...
19:26:12 <frosch> yeah, might happen if they are too far off
19:26:55 <michi_cc> frosch: Commit message question: 're-randomisation' or 'random triggers'?
19:27:46 <frosch> should be the same, maybe the former causes less confusion/expections from random grf authors reading it :)
19:28:52 <Beul> cries in frustration!! come here stupid sprite!! :@
19:29:20 <frosch> start with small offset :p
19:29:34 <frosch> if you use 0,0 you can most likely catch it with the ingame sprite aligner
19:29:38 <frosch> and then progress from there
19:31:28 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24371 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] Allow vehicle variable 61 for callback 2D (recolour) and re-randomisation.
19:32:08 <Beul> I am trying to find it ingame, but for some reason it's just gone
19:32:36 <Beul> i set it to 0,0 in the nml code :(
19:34:21 <frosch> well, if you know a sprite from the same spriteset, you can still navigate to your sprite with the sprite aligner
19:36:35 <Beul> I have allready got all the flat tiles alligned, only the 4 sloped overlay tiles are not visable, thy do appear in the alling window, but no matter where i move them, they just are nowhere to be seen
19:37:16 <frosch> oh, well, maybe you track layout does not use them
19:37:27 <frosch> enable display of pbs reservations
19:37:38 <frosch> and reserve a path over all your tiles with a train
19:37:51 <frosch> pbs reservations should use all overlay sprites
19:38:14 <frosch> but you might also find them on bridges
19:40:50 <Beul> frosch: I found them with the reserve path thingie :D
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19:43:19 <Beul> on second thought i dit not, they seem not to be at the same place as the pathe either...
19:53:35 <Beul> -_- I was moving arround the wrong sprites :p
19:54:46 <Sacro> and it's using libcaca ><
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19:56:05 <Sacro> but it started anyway ><
19:56:38 <Alberth> make a script file :)
19:56:55 <frosch> ah, libcaca is a newer version of aalib?
19:56:58 <Rubidium> that must be SDL playing nice then ;)
20:04:10 <Sacro> hmm, how'd I get ap+ to work
20:04:25 <Rubidium> rewrite from scratch?
20:21:40 <cmircea> Does property maintenance include tunnels?
20:21:59 <cmircea> it seems to have shot up a lot since I tunneled the mainline for a long portion
20:22:55 <michi_cc> It does, each tunnel tile is like 4 normal tracks are.
20:25:47 <cmircea> michi_cc, that explains it. 20 or so tunnels xD
20:26:39 <cmircea> michi_cc, but that's not that much.
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20:27:06 <michi_cc> But track cost increases by total track count.
20:27:17 <Jame334> Is there any point in playing the single player?
20:27:27 <cmircea> I spend a lot of money on electrified and signals
20:27:43 <cmircea> most is electrified, although 30% is normal, yet I pay like 10% of the total for normal
20:28:09 <cmircea> quad-lane tracks aren't cheap :< I even got 6-lane in some places
20:28:45 <frosch> Jame334: there is no fixed ruleset how to play openttd
20:29:09 <Jame334> Hmm, what is different in the desert or arctic?
20:29:10 <frosch> competitive multiplayer is likely the least common way
20:29:44 *** Snail_ is now known as Snail
20:29:46 <frosch> usually desert and arctic towns have cargo requirements for growth
20:39:27 <Beul> in TTDLX I loved crashing my competitors trains and rv's
20:39:44 <Beul> why is that not possible anymore?:p
20:40:02 <Beul> I mean crashing the trains of opponents
20:40:07 <TomyLobo> because children could do it at home
20:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Beul: you can cheat into the ai company to do that :)
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20:56:57 <Jame334> If I have a cross junction with tracks, what singals do I have to use?
20:57:26 <planetmaker> possibly path signals
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21:03:58 <Jame334> Yay, got my first junction working :)
21:04:55 <Beul> Eddi, yeah but you can't do it by crashing them with your own train while they are loading at a station:p
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21:08:30 <Jame334> SHould I first repay my debt or just expand expand expand?
21:11:17 <Jame334> My 3 passanger carrier train is way more profitable than my 6 carriagge iron ore train...
21:12:09 <cmircea> Passenger is where the real money is at.
21:12:19 <cmircea> Early on, coal. Later, pax.
21:12:34 <cmircea> For really large routes and production, oil and iron are good too.
21:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> passengers easily are the most profitable source. there's just so many of them, and you haul them both ways
21:16:52 <Jame334> Why should I even bother with anything else?
21:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i find myself asking that very same question every game
21:19:56 <Jame334> Welp, time to build a passanger transport empire
21:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> often when i play a (cargodist or other destinations) game, i am so busy with handling passengers that i neglect the industry part mostly...
21:23:34 <Jame334> Now to wait for some moolah to roll in and then build an airport
21:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i find airports annoying
21:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot "manage" them. just point the aircraft in the general direction, and they do everything themselves. usually in a totally inefficient way circling the airport
21:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to be able to make a proper landing/takeoff queue
21:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can increase efficiency
21:26:47 <Supercheese> What's also annoying is that the International is more efficient than the Intercontinental
21:27:35 <Jame334> WHat's the difference in them anyway?
21:28:01 <Supercheese> Size, state machine, catchment, date available, etc
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21:29:39 <NGC3982> bah, i fail to increase transported goods with trucks
21:30:03 <NGC3982> what is usually the best way? forces full load and continous visits?
21:31:30 <Jame334> Do bus routes lose profitability the further the game goes?
21:39:34 <Jame334> Are helicopters any good?
21:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> anything that is space restricted and difficult landscape
21:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i used helicopters short distance from a commuter airport in the city to a larger hub airport on the outskirts
21:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> at the hub airport you won't disturb the long distance airplanes this way
21:45:41 <Jame334> Can I move passangers by bus to an airport?
21:47:33 <NGC3982> Jame334: by building an adjacent bus station to the airport.
21:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Jame334: give the busses "transfer and leave empty" orders
21:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (you cannot haul passengers back, so the airplanes must be able to offload the passengers themselves)
21:49:06 <Jame334> K, because while from paint A to B is very profitable, point B to point A isn't that much
21:54:57 <NGC3982> cant get this to work.
21:57:47 <Jame334> These towns grow too slowly
22:06:31 <Jame334> Towns can't grow fast enough to feed my plans :P
22:13:52 <TomyLobo> mine almost started stagnating after 200k
22:13:54 <Jame334> WHat do I do with the massive amount of mail packages in my airports?
22:14:22 <Jame334> My biggest town is stagnating at 3k
22:14:43 <TomyLobo> Jame334 which climate?
22:15:07 <TomyLobo> then just make passenger lines through the town
22:15:55 <TomyLobo> i built a train ring around the city at some point
22:16:01 <Jame334> There is an airport here, a trainstation and 4 buses
22:16:10 <TomyLobo> before that, it was all busses
22:16:58 <TomyLobo> i have 5 train stations, 2 airports, 4 bus stations(2 of which are shared with the train stations) and 2 docks
22:17:18 <TomyLobo> 3 of the train stations contribute nothing to city growth
22:20:36 <Jame334> I'm in north USa or something, almost every town is under 500 pop
22:21:27 <TomyLobo> all you really need to do to change that is a simple bus line across town
22:21:40 <TomyLobo> saturate it with busses and watch the population climb :)
22:22:40 <TomyLobo> man, why are my airports' ratings so bad? 35% although i basically fetch them instantly
22:23:26 <CornishPasty> TomyLobo: because people are being interrupted in the middle of their duty free!
22:23:48 <CornishPasty> (probably not the real reason!)
22:24:46 <TomyLobo> ah, i need some more planes... they appear to be coming in waves
22:25:11 <Jame334> I have been very dissapointed in airport stores, none of them carry tom clancy books( and I want to try one of those out)
22:25:41 <NGC3982> i cant get transport to reach >75%.
22:26:12 <TomyLobo> can only get that with brand new trains or ad campaigns :P
22:26:17 <Jame334> Dude, at least you are not stuck in the wild west
22:27:08 <TomyLobo> uh-oh, those 13 new planes kinda clog up the airport now :D
22:27:19 <NGC3982> looks like a truck circus.
22:27:33 <TomyLobo> NGC3982 more rating => more transported
22:27:50 <TomyLobo> (assuming you always have a truck loading
22:28:10 <NGC3982> like 100 of them, with full-load.
22:28:33 <TomyLobo> read up on ratings... iirc slow vehicles are bad for the rating
22:29:14 <TomyLobo> yay finally the last plane left the hangar
22:29:48 <TomyLobo> now for some reason most planes land on one of the 2 landing strips
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