IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-05-28
⏴ go to previous day
00:11:22 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
00:21:44 * Davidt is back (gone 02:21:23)
04:54:02 *** telanus has joined #openttd
04:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
05:33:52 *** kkimlabs_ has joined #openttd
05:55:51 *** kkimlabs_ has joined #openttd
06:10:36 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
06:23:15 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
06:23:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
06:47:02 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
07:01:32 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
07:05:30 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
07:18:25 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
07:20:20 *** Nat_aS is now known as Nat_AFK
08:09:03 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
08:25:13 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
08:28:14 *** Progman has joined #openttd
08:48:06 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
08:48:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
09:08:18 *** TGYoshi has joined #openttd
09:10:27 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
09:31:41 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
09:45:16 *** telanus1 has joined #openttd
09:47:42 <Knogle> How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
10:23:03 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
10:50:08 <__ln__> is "ein bißchen" literally "a small bite"?
10:51:23 <Markk> According to Wiktionary.
10:51:44 <Markk> Or yes, a small bite seems correct.
10:52:14 <Markk> __ln__: Er spricht nur ein bisschen Englisch.
10:52:14 <Markk> He only speaks a little English.
10:53:51 <frosch123> __ln__: yes, just like a english "bit" is also a "bite"
10:59:51 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
11:37:06 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd
11:40:39 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
11:44:10 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
11:58:50 <Rubidium> what shall we do this WITH!!! Monday?
12:16:10 <Alberth> break the light barrier
12:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> erect a light barrier
13:00:33 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
13:21:24 *** JayGuerette has joined #openttd
13:24:01 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24295 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: STRING1 probably means STRING1.
13:29:08 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24296 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: No need to pass a member variable to a member function.
13:29:19 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
13:32:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24297 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Split DParam-setup for drawing setting values to a separate function.
13:34:47 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24298 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Feature: Display default values for adv. settings in the settings description.
13:45:00 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24299 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#5057]: Center object previews in 1- and 2-view selectors based on the 4-view selector layout.
14:19:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
14:41:44 <Adrian> When i stop serviving a station (i.e. picking up cargo), how long does it take for this cargo to no longer being listed? I built a coal station close to another one and rerouted my trains there. But i don't want coal to be wasted, waiting at the former station, along with the appaling rating it gets there.
14:43:04 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
14:44:37 <frosch123> currently there is no other way than deleting the old station
14:46:14 <Adrian> i see, can i rebuilt it right after, or will the association return with it?
14:50:07 <Adrian> Ok just fired up the game, the association returns with it. So no luck. The station is big and otherwise important, so i can't sacrifice it. Either way, thanks for your answer.
15:04:13 *** CornishPasty has joined #openttd
15:16:52 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
15:38:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:48:11 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
16:18:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
16:18:43 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
16:24:04 *** kkimlabs has joined #openttd
16:33:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
16:35:43 *** Firartix has joined #openttd
16:46:28 *** Nat_AFK is now known as Nat_aS
16:55:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:31:10 * Alberth is very happy with moving guests in the FreeRCT program
17:31:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:32:26 <Alberth> hi andy, did you have a chance to look at the trs python files yet? I am somewhat stuck on how to bring it to life tbh
17:34:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: sorry no
17:34:26 <Alberth> basically it's a library of functionality that you need to talk to through some network connection, eg http or xmpp, or so. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to make the latter
17:34:50 <andythenorth> have you tried poking at one of the off-the-shelf python frameworks?
17:35:18 <andythenorth> for example, bottle or flask?
17:35:23 <andythenorth> just to teach yourself?
17:36:02 <Alberth> I had a look at cherrypy iirc
17:36:04 <andythenorth> if you don't mind that I don't actually know what I'm talking about, I can explain the basic concepts
17:37:13 <Alberth> I don't understand how such a framework can help me transport data from user-app to my app and back
17:37:31 <andythenorth> cherrypy looks interesting and nice, but non-standard
17:37:37 <andythenorth> I've heard of it before
17:37:53 <Alberth> or, if you're talking a web-frontend, how to connect to my app from a web-app
17:38:06 <andythenorth> does your app handle the reading and writing of data already?
17:38:32 <Alberth> I had JSON in mind for now
17:38:44 <Alberth> a simple set of files
17:39:22 <andythenorth> so, with caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about...
17:39:37 <Alberth> that's ok, I don't know either :p
17:39:37 <andythenorth> the basic concepts are:
17:40:04 <andythenorth> - request. This is a http request with header, post / get vars etc. Mostly you don't need to worry about this, the browser + server handle it
17:40:19 <andythenorth> - response. What you return to the browser for any given request
17:41:06 <andythenorth> - routing. For a given request, you need to know how to handle it, e.g which classes might be called etc. This is equivalent to a dispatcher pattern.
17:41:22 <andythenorth> - authentication / permissions. Security stuff :P
17:41:42 <andythenorth> - session. A way of holding state temporarily, a black art to me :P
17:41:57 <Alberth> REST has no session state :)
17:42:02 <TinoDidriksen> What do you want to do?
17:42:21 <Alberth> write a new translation service
17:42:59 <Alberth> with a backend with the real functionality, and possibly several front-ends
17:43:15 <Alberth> ie a web service, but also a download to a desktop machine
17:43:50 <TinoDidriksen> Centrally coordinated via the web service, or working on offline data?
17:43:52 <andythenorth> just provide the web app for the desktop machine :P
17:44:28 <Alberth> the backend has the data, and handles updates, etc
17:44:52 <Alberth> you can ask for things that need to be translated and/or send translated stuff back
17:44:58 <andythenorth> so the backend is an app with classes / methods....
17:45:16 <andythenorth> and your WSGI app needs to dispatch requests and return responses to/from those
17:45:59 <Alberth> I am trying to make the backend, but I need something so I can talk to it, and do tests etc :)
17:46:14 <TinoDidriksen> SQL storage, web frontend with exposed callbacks/RPC for desktop apps to communicate with.
17:46:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: translators * r24300 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
17:46:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
17:46:41 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: danish - 10 changes by beruic
17:46:43 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:46:43 <CIA-17> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:46:51 <Alberth> I was thinking simple files instead of SQL, but yeah
17:47:24 <TinoDidriksen> Files will have locking and record deletion issues.
17:47:28 <Alberth> I am not sure it should also be a web frontend, or that the web-frontend should be separate
17:47:44 <TinoDidriksen> Why reimplement SQL when you can just use SQL, or SQLite...
17:48:32 <TinoDidriksen> Communication with the desktop app would almost certainly have to be done via a web frontend anyway.
17:49:08 <TinoDidriksen> Everyone has port 80 and 443 open; a custom backend service with a different port would be harder to work with, and much harder to secure.
17:49:43 <Alberth> oh, 'web frontend' is more than just using port 80, for me
17:50:02 <TinoDidriksen> andythenorth, MySQL is one SQL variant...
17:50:07 <andythenorth> hence the question
17:50:21 <TinoDidriksen> Personally I'd use PostgreSQL
17:50:25 <andythenorth> Rubidium: what do openttd servers have available right now?
17:50:44 <Alberth> SQL is a generic name for all forms of sql engines
17:51:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: available for/as what?
17:51:17 <andythenorth> database technology
17:51:27 <TinoDidriksen> Alberth, sure web frontend is more than just port 80, but port 80 vs. firewalls is the reason to use a web frontend.
17:51:32 <andythenorth> might as well use what's already deployed
17:52:38 <Alberth> TinoDidriksen: yep, http is a smart choice, but not necessarily with html
17:52:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: personally I'd try pyramid for this project, it's the python framework du jour, and I need to learn it anyway
17:52:58 <Alberth> as it just exchanges machine oriented data
17:53:00 <TinoDidriksen> Nah, JSON for desktop communication.
17:53:30 <Rubidium> andythenorth: at least MySQL
17:53:33 <andythenorth> I've built the hello world app for pyramid
17:53:42 <Alberth> but what do you do at the user end?
17:53:52 <Alberth> you need some program there too??
17:53:54 <Rubidium> no idea about other SQLs being knowingly used, though the CF probably uses some sort as well
17:54:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: which bit of user end?
17:54:09 <Alberth> or you need to make a web app with forms etc
17:54:16 <andythenorth> assuming you have a browser client
17:54:21 <andythenorth> I assume you want one :P
17:54:31 <TinoDidriksen> It's fairly trivial to throw together a Qt app that communicates with a HTTP server over JSON.
17:55:09 <TinoDidriksen> But why a desktop app? Clunky stuff...
17:56:26 <andythenorth> Alberth: at the simplest you need one web form
17:56:36 <andythenorth> it might even be static html, although I doubt it
17:56:47 <Alberth> you have automatic things going on, eg VCSes that deliver changed strings, and pull translated strings
17:56:58 <TinoDidriksen> And, what's wrong with the current translation system?
17:57:13 <Alberth> it only does openttd, and not all newgrfs
17:57:33 <TinoDidriksen> Isn't it easier to add that than to start from scratch?
17:58:00 <andythenorth> it probably isn't a repeatable deployment, at a guess
17:58:14 <andythenorth> if it's like bananas, building a dev environment is near-impossibl
17:58:41 *** Rhamphoryncus has joined #openttd
17:59:12 <Rubidium> "tree time's a charm" works in software development as well. Usually stuff gets better after iterations as problems get figured out during development which are tricky to fix without redoing it completely
17:59:57 * andythenorth is on hmm...the fourth rebuild of some big apps :P
18:00:01 <Alberth> not when I haven't studied the first two :)
18:00:19 <Alberth> which is one of the things I need to do :)
18:01:05 *** CornishPasty has joined #openttd
18:01:17 <andythenorth> reliable, repeatable builds are the number lesson I've learnt about web apps
18:01:32 <andythenorth> all other arguments about technology are mostly near-religious and lack evidence :P
18:01:37 <Alberth> but ok, a bit of pyramid thus
18:01:50 <andythenorth> but not being able to build the app for dev / production is bad bad bad
18:02:07 <andythenorth> no different to making sure openttd always compiles :P
18:02:50 <andythenorth> you can pick pretty much any technology, but if you can't build without doing funny rituals and praying for luck, your app is screwed
18:02:57 <Alberth> yeah, but web apps are soooooooo simple ........... :D (famous last words)
18:03:57 <Alberth> it depends on the expected life time of the application :p
18:11:37 *** CornishPasty has joined #openttd
18:12:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: so the app also needs to write to VCS?
18:12:26 <andythenorth> and possibly read from VCS?
18:13:14 <Alberth> no, you run an app that does that, and exchange data with 'my' app
18:13:42 <Alberth> that way I don't need access to your repo, and I don't need to care about VCSes :p
18:14:45 <andythenorth> how do commits make it to main ottd repo?
18:14:49 <andythenorth> or newgrf repos?
18:15:07 <andythenorth> developer explicitly pulls?
18:15:11 <Alberth> you run an app that queries updated translations
18:15:21 <andythenorth> so an update / merge app
18:15:50 <Alberth> that seems the simplest solution to me
18:16:24 <andythenorth> have you seen the fetch_src_and_build.sh script in BANDIT?
18:16:32 <andythenorth> probably doesn't need to be much more complicated than that :P
18:17:13 <andythenorth> just curl changes, diff, save?
18:18:11 *** kkimlabs has joined #openttd
18:18:48 <Alberth> it probably needs a bit local file recosntruction too, as I don't make assumptions on the used string file format
18:19:13 <Alberth> (well, I do, but as few as possible :) )
18:19:35 <andythenorth> json is probably good for this
18:19:35 <Alberth> yes, in some standard form
18:19:49 <Alberth> xml means you can use xmpp :p
18:29:27 <andythenorth> I know that's simple :P
18:30:41 <Alberth> it is :) but it has nice darkened edges :p
18:31:14 <Alberth> but that's globally the idea, an app that does 'it', and stuff around it to query/access it
18:32:40 <Alberth> you and Tino see it speak html for a browser too, I was thinking to add an app for that too
18:32:59 <andythenorth> you can have it speak html
18:33:09 <Alberth> so I don't have the usual html generation mess in the app
18:33:11 <andythenorth> or you can have it speak very limited html, lots of json, and make it an AJAX app
18:33:27 <andythenorth> which is how twitter et al works
18:33:40 <andythenorth> but it's not my taste because I don't get on brilliantly with javascript :P
18:33:48 <Alberth> mostly they don't, at my machine :p
18:34:09 <TinoDidriksen> andythenorth, learn jQuery...JS is quite fun with that.
18:34:40 <andythenorth> keeping state in the DOM still hurts my brain
18:34:43 <andythenorth> it seems insane to me :P
18:35:08 <andythenorth> 'write your entire app by shuffling things on and off <li> tags' :P
18:35:13 <andythenorth> I know there are other, better ways
18:35:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: a jquery app means you can do the whole thing in JSON
18:35:59 <andythenorth> but parsing the json to html is also trivial
18:36:08 <andythenorth> or just fetching the raw data
18:37:22 <Alberth> I am sure it is, but I want to focus on the back-end, not on a frontend
18:37:44 <andythenorth> k, so allowing for large current dose of real life, I can help
18:37:45 <Alberth> perhaps I should write the vcs interface app
18:38:04 <TinoDidriksen> I would make a frontend sketch or mockup first, to ensure the backend can actually do everything the frontend will need.
18:38:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: got a repo?
18:38:37 <Alberth> I have plenty repos, just not for trs :p
18:38:52 <andythenorth> well pull or download twitter bootstrap, as we'll need it later :P
18:39:09 <andythenorth> it means trs will look like every other web app made in 2012, but meh, it's easy and works
18:40:08 <andythenorth> also, we should use chameleon for templating, because I know it
18:40:27 <andythenorth> you probably have chameleon already for BANDIT
18:40:50 <andythenorth> BANDIT is abusing a html templating engine to write nml :P
18:41:24 <andythenorth> BANDIT could be a web app, all it needs to do is 'return (templated nml)' instead of 'codecs.write (templated nml)'
18:44:18 <andythenorth> it's worth a try :)
18:56:39 <Knogle> How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
19:00:03 <Alberth> perhaps you can post a question in the AI/script development forum
19:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd expect you can yank up some debug level to get the script output on stderr
19:07:10 <Knogle> I was hoping there was a debug command like -d ai=X, but for gamescripts.
19:07:21 <Knogle> but thanks, I'll try the forums.
19:08:05 <Alberth> and you get a dump of available debug categories
19:15:28 *** Rubidium has joined #openttd
19:22:58 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
19:22:59 <Knogle> --help isn't much help really
19:30:48 <frosch123> List of debug facility names:
19:30:50 <frosch123> driver, grf, map, misc, net, sprite, oldloader, npf, yapf, freetype, script, sl, gamelog, desync, console
19:30:55 <frosch123> ^^ thats the important part of --help
19:31:43 <Knogle> all it I see is: -d [[fac=]lvl[,...]]= Debug mode
19:32:00 <Knogle> anyway, which one is for game scripts? lol
19:32:04 <frosch123> yep, and you need -d script=4
19:32:13 <Knogle> thanks a lot frosch123 :)
19:32:25 *** kkimlabs has joined #openttd
19:33:44 <frosch123> 4 means all, you can reduce it to only get the output of GSLog::Warning or Error
20:01:10 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
20:26:16 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:32:19 <andythenorth> FIRS farms are still boring :P
20:33:04 <Terkhen> and with bigger clusters
20:38:47 <andythenorth> the clustering seems to have gone astray during the nml conversion
20:38:50 <andythenorth> I need to add it back in
20:39:32 <andythenorth> or at least, the part that scales by map size seems to be missing
20:39:48 <andythenorth> maybe I just need YACD in my game
20:39:58 <Terkhen> yeah, that would be awesome :P
20:40:12 <andythenorth> the lack of YACD is dull
20:40:21 * andythenorth wonders if it compiles with current trunk
20:40:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: don't wonder, I full expect it to fail to apply
20:40:55 * andythenorth was going to just test it :P
20:40:55 <Terkhen> it would be a miracle :P
20:41:11 <Terkhen> you could spend some time updating it to current trunk though :)
20:42:28 * andythenorth hasn't figured github out yet
20:45:55 <Rubidium> that's likely not the official one
20:46:00 <andythenorth> I assume compiling a failed patch is silly?
20:46:09 <andythenorth> it's not the official one
20:46:47 <Rubidium> andythenorth: usually it is
20:46:56 * andythenorth ponders a fake YACD using only subsidies
20:47:11 <andythenorth> capitalism (price incentive) vs central planning (YACD)
20:48:17 <andythenorth> no need to route each packet
20:49:28 <andythenorth> also....bed time
20:54:14 * Terkhen ponders that pondering and then leaving without giving time to comment is not very useful
20:55:00 <Chris_Booth> If you notice this notice, you will notice that this notice is not worth noticing.
20:56:17 <Chris_Booth> did you notice the note rails ?
20:56:56 <rails> if i really have to notify you about my noticing the notice that you notice'd to everyone
20:58:59 <Chris_Booth> CornishPasty you are now tax free!
20:59:44 <CornishPasty> Am I a product of designated origin yet?
21:09:26 *** Djohaal has joined #openttd
21:17:23 *** MrZombie has joined #openttd
21:37:09 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:46:38 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:50:47 *** Nat_aS is now known as Nat_AFK
22:46:56 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
