IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-05-23
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10:10:59 <YO_LESTAT> created new starting point to challenge someone?
10:12:32 <planetmaker> that will be a pleasure to those who speak Spanish but no English (we sometimes get them here)
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10:23:47 <planetmaker> YO_LESTAT: your language setting indicate that command of the Spanish language is at least recommended, though ;-)
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16:53:39 <Terkhen> meh, those guys never appear when I'm around
16:53:46 <Terkhen> and when they do, they ignore my private messages
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17:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24267 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt french.txt korean.txt russian.txt spanish.txt): (log message trimmed)
17:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 9 changes by habell
17:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by OliTTD
17:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 185 changes by telk5093
17:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by
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19:07:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24268 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: Use the same colour scheme for the script selection window as in other comparable windows.
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20:54:17 <NataS> why is there no good way to just make trains wait at a station untill the next train with the same orders shows up?
20:54:33 <NataS> timetables are complex as hell, and don't even do that well
20:54:51 <NataS> that's all you really need, and it's not that complex an action
21:02:01 <Chris_Booth> you want me to show you how?
21:02:34 <Chris_Booth> if you use 2 logic gates you can make train wait until both bays are full then leave
21:13:40 <Chris_Booth> try something like that
21:14:40 <TinoDidriksen> 'cause that's not crazy at all...
21:15:05 <Chris_Booth> its a station with 2 notgates
21:15:14 <Chris_Booth> if empty don't let train pass
21:15:21 <TinoDidriksen> The suggestion of adding wait-for-event is sane. Programming in OTTD is less so.
21:15:22 <Chris_Booth> once both full train can pass
21:15:52 <Chris_Booth> why do you need to program them into openttd when you can build them with trains?
21:17:08 <TinoDidriksen> Are trains turing complete yet?
21:17:50 <Chris_Booth> TinoDidriksen: how do you mean?
21:19:10 <TinoDidriksen> It's a measure of how feature-complete a programming environment is. If something is Turing-complete, then it can do anything.
21:22:19 <Chris_Booth> well you can program and logic gate with trains in openttd
21:22:25 <Chris_Booth> and make a counter
21:22:31 <Chris_Booth> so I guess the sky is the limit
21:30:14 <NataS> I would not be able to build that in a city
21:30:35 <NataS> and that sort of function should be built into the game, not a puzzle logic system
21:31:16 <NataS> my goal is to build a layout that is aesthetically pleasing and efficient.
21:31:19 <Chris_Booth> NataS: with very long tunnels that can be anywhere on a map
21:31:32 <NataS> that is space inefficient, unrealisic, and ugly
21:31:54 <NataS> and also, more complx than timetables
21:31:56 <Chris_Booth> openttd is not realistic
21:32:18 <Chris_Booth> a train that 100 miles long?
21:32:30 <Chris_Booth> 1000 people working in a sky scraper?
21:33:00 <NataS> open ttd is not realistic, but that does not mean I want to build logic gates out of trains and use them to regulate my network
21:33:05 <NataS> Game realism is a thing
21:33:17 <NataS> realism is not an absolute.
21:33:46 <Chris_Booth> realism is the modeling of real items in an objective form
21:34:33 <V453000> pointless to discuss :p
21:35:03 <NataS> Well I don't think I'll find (or want) a game that does that. I do want to build a trainset that looks nice, and can run lots of trains on a relitivly simple layout without jamming
21:35:13 <Chris_Booth> when someone asks me how to regulate trains so they only enter a station if approached by both sides
21:35:18 <NataS> and regulate itself without having to buld absurd looking logic gates out of train cars
21:35:40 <Chris_Booth> I then give them a very good solution and they say that is unrealistic and ugly that is not very helpful
21:35:45 <V453000> even if the game offers you to actually build complicated things that are useful for the network?
21:35:46 <NataS> I do not start up OTTD looking to build a rube golberg machine
21:36:34 <V453000> after all, define playing "realistically" ... refusing "too complicated" solutions?
21:37:47 <Chris_Booth> V453000: I think that is a challenge to build the Rube Goldburg Machine :P
21:38:14 <V453000> no that isnt, logic without use for network is not my cup of tea
21:38:47 <Chris_Booth> you know what a Rube Goldberg Machine is?
21:39:01 <NataS> well I want to play a game about trains and not computers
21:39:11 <NataS> I want to move passingers and cargo
21:39:18 <NataS> and even if the game is "not realistic"
21:39:33 <NataS> I like to imagine there are little people inside the trains and stations
21:39:33 <Chris_Booth> NataS: you know we are just pulling your leg
21:39:43 <NataS> who should know how to schedule things
21:39:49 <Chris_Booth> everyone is here for the same reason. to play openttd
21:40:01 <NataS> without needing to assemble a huge computer out of trains
21:40:03 <Chris_Booth> how you play it and enjoy it is up to you
21:40:03 <V453000> but that is not what I asked about ... I am asking how do I play the game realistically, what is the style specific in
21:40:29 <NataS> like if 10000 people work in a skyscraper, why can't they do the logic gates?
21:40:38 <NataS> why does the logic gate have to be the size of a city?
21:41:02 <Chris_Booth> it doesn't have to be
21:41:08 <V453000> because it for example helps the whole network? And it does not have to be in the city
21:41:09 <Chris_Booth> you can make them more compact
21:41:38 <NataS> it helps the network, but it's a bigger leap in suspension of disbelief than OTTD's scale
21:41:53 <NataS> where trains are hundreds of miles long and can take years to get places
21:42:15 <NataS> the scale is easy to ignore
21:42:42 <Chris_Booth> I like openttd scale
21:42:46 <NataS> building logic gates on the other hand ruins imersion
21:42:49 <Chris_Booth> its easy to look at
21:42:54 <NataS> so do i, it works and looks pretty
21:43:59 <NataS> 1 house = 1 road = 1 train track is unrealistic, but it conveys visual information well, and is easy to simulate
21:45:25 <opa> i pernoally don't like that you have to put extra tracks to get priorities working. it looks ugly
21:45:57 <NataS> yes, it's ugly, complex, and something the AI should be able to do itself
21:46:10 <NataS> you should be able to assign priorities to trains
21:46:30 <V453000> priorities have a lot more uses than just that one train > other
21:46:52 <Chris_Booth> V453000: this is the wrong channel for this
21:47:07 <Chris_Booth> we should take this back to coop before we upset everyone
21:47:12 <V453000> just to point out that it cant be done by any orders
21:47:24 <NataS> this is talking about the mechanics of the game itself
21:47:31 <NataS> if anything, this belongs in dev
21:47:52 <Chris_Booth> how does building a prior or logic gate belong in dev?
21:47:59 <Chris_Booth> it belongs in a building channel
21:48:48 <V453000> because we are obviously wrong and it needs to be made a lot simplier to noobs - there needs ot be a feature to instead of making gates for example, if I understand it right
21:49:11 <V453000> so that you could just build it isntead of actually learning to build it, and tweak it
21:49:41 <NataS> logic gates are really metagamy
21:50:21 <NataS> i don't like to nerd bash, because I am a huge nerd, but advanced play in a game should not revolve around building complex logic gates
21:50:49 <NataS> i mean it's funny as an experiment, but it should not be "the way the game is played"
21:51:17 <V453000> it doesnt have to be logic gates in specific
21:51:43 <V453000> just talk in general, a feature which replaces something gameplay wise, but does not add depth to the ga me
21:52:10 <NataS> but it streamlines things
21:52:20 <V453000> be it signals on bridges, autorefit, or whatever else
21:52:26 <NataS> not all features have to add depth, optimization and streamlining
21:52:39 <V453000> no but they shouldnt reduce possibilities :p
21:52:52 <NataS> they make the game more accessible and less fustrating
21:53:00 <NataS> and I never said posibilities should be reduced.
21:53:07 <V453000> but that is what it does
21:53:17 <NataS> nothing is stoping somebody from building, say, a computer out of trains
21:53:31 <TinoDidriksen> wait-on-event would most certainly add gameplay depth, and would model how the real world works.
21:54:15 <V453000> well sure, but building a computer out of trains is also pretty pointless
21:54:41 <V453000> building logic mechanisms which allow you to do something which is not possible otherwise however can have a huge impact on the network
21:54:48 <NataS> it seems that any game with moving objects that behave in a deteministic way, will eventualy be made into a computer within a computer
21:54:57 <NataS> see also, Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft
21:55:02 <TinoDidriksen> The original problem was having a train wait for another train; this should not require building logic gates.
21:55:18 <opa> it's a nice curiosity that train network is turing complete
21:55:34 <NataS> what does it need to be turing complete?
21:55:45 <opa> well theres no infinite tape memory
21:55:48 <V453000> I dont know DF, but I think Minecraft is a lot different, it has nothing to tell if you are succeeding or not, just 100% sandbox. In OpenTTD trains jam
21:55:56 <opa> are am i remembering something wrong
21:56:08 <NataS> and has anybody made a computer out of source engine physics?
21:56:43 <NataS> V453000, in minecraft redstone can be used to make logic gates, people have even made games inside of it
21:56:53 <V453000> yes I know but that doesnt matter
21:56:54 <NataS> including a highly simple version of minecraft itself
21:57:09 <V453000> nothing in the game tells you if it is useful for something
21:57:27 <V453000> but in openttd you can make logic mechanisms which do help your network
21:57:58 <V453000> improve flow, improve spread of trains, or just make the network work completely automatically, many things
21:58:23 <TinoDidriksen> opa, the infinite tape is for a Turing machine. For something to be Turing complete it just has to support all the operations that one can do given an infinite tape.
21:59:05 <NataS> yeah but it feels wrong to have to build a logic gate instead of just put and order to leave station when another train (in same group) approaches
21:59:38 <NataS> what's the diffrence between a Von Newman machine and a Turring machine?
22:00:00 <NataS> (the computer not the self replicating spacecraft)
22:00:17 <NataS> (which is only called a von newman machine due to linquistic coruption)
22:00:47 <V453000> if it is "wrong", then there has to be a better option how to do that, otherwise it is automatically best option/only option/right
22:01:09 <NataS> yeah, I should be able to set that in the orders list
22:01:29 <NataS> there are already some impressive complex/powerfull options avalable there
22:01:29 <V453000> such an option isnt in the game
22:01:35 <TinoDidriksen> The Von Neumann machine is much more practical. A Turing machine is theoretical. A Von Neumann machine is basically how a modern computer is constructed...
22:02:38 <TinoDidriksen> A Turing machine has 2 parts: Infinite tape, and a read/write head.
22:04:06 <NataS> it's confusing, because a universal constructor also involves a long tape trailing out of it
22:04:33 <NataS> too bad trains can't build things in OTTD
22:04:49 <NataS> then we could build a network that was self regulating, and self expanding
22:05:58 <V453000> just make an AI which builds SML with magic bulldozer
22:07:53 <NataS> if you have to code an AI externaly, you don't need self regulating networks or anything
22:08:41 <V453000> why would you do that anyway
22:13:48 <NataS> i just like the ideal of universal constructors
22:14:19 <V453000> well thats cute but how about to actually play the game instead :D
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22:15:29 <NataS> and that's what I have to say about using logic gates to regulate a network
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22:21:54 <Nat_aS> this network could use some self regulation
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