IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-05-12
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05:44:31 <andythenorth> so auto-refit can't partial refit :P
05:48:02 <Nat_aS> can you partial refit manualy?
05:48:10 <Nat_aS> I wish you could mix cargos more
05:48:36 <Nat_aS> esp with single car vehicles.
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05:48:55 <Nat_aS> I know it's in the system because of airplanes (Unless they have a cheat like an invisible trailing car)
05:53:35 <andythenorth> airplanes have a shadow
05:54:25 <Nat_aS> and the shadow is a second car carring mail?
05:55:03 <andythenorth> read the code ;)
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07:03:14 <andythenorth> what delights does today hold?
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07:10:56 <Rubidium> literally hundreds of decistrings ;)
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07:19:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24225 /branches/1.2/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
07:19:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:19:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Conflicting strategies for resizing the main toolbar and statusbar after resizing the main window [FS#5136] (r24089)
07:19:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Significantly reduce the area that is redrawn for text effects [FS#5103] (r24068)
07:19:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not redraw up to 25% of the map when making a new vehicle visible for the first time (r24067)
07:19:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not redraw the text effect when nothing changed (r24066)
07:22:31 <Alberth> any relation to the string theory is not decided yet
07:22:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24226 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 4 dirs):
07:22:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:22:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Squirrel] Crash when trying to create an array with negative size [FS#5160] (r24153)
07:22:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not return the last 'cached' speed of vehicles when they are stopped/crashed [FS#5157] (r24152)
07:22:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Script] Typo in script documentation (r24151)
07:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles [FS#5143] (r24107)
07:24:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24227 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
07:24:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:24:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Squirrel] Crash when trying to create an array with negative size [FS#5160] (r24153)
07:24:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not return the last 'cached' speed of vehicles when they are stopped/crashed [FS#5157] (r24152)
07:24:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Script] Typo in script documentation (r24151)
07:24:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles [FS#5143] (r24107)
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07:31:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24228 /branches/1.2/ (19 files in 6 dirs):
07:31:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:31:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Town radii were not updated immediatelly after construction/destruction of houses, resulting in desyncs [FS#5169] (r24183)
07:31:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: The population of a town was computed incorrectly for overridden houses when loading a game (r24182, r24181, r24179)
07:31:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: The object name from property A was not displayed in the object GUI [FS#5110] (r24178)
07:37:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24229 /branches/1.2/ (4 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
07:37:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:37:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: If you consider a settings to potentially cause desyncs via NewGRFs and thus disallow changing it in network games, you should probably also sync it to clients (r24193, r24191)
07:37:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Use default value when reading an invalid setting value [FS#5153] (r24192, r24146)
07:37:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] When going to fullscreen and back, restore to the resolution you were, not to the fullscreen resolution (r24189)
07:37:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] When changing the basics of a window (fullscreen, 8bpp/32bpp),
07:37:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: and a window already exists, it was forced out of maximize mode, and its
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07:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24230 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
07:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Make the engine name not overdraw the engine count in the autoreplace GUI (r24203)
07:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Make the size of the details in the autoreplace GUI match more the size of the details in the purchase list (r24202)
07:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Mark group list dirty when setting/clearing autoreplace for an engine type [FS#5170] (r24201)
07:42:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Invalidate build vehicle windows every month, in case they need resorting due to changed reliabilities [FS#5149] (r24200)
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07:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24231 /branches/1.2/ (. src/economy.cpp src/vehicle.cpp src/window.cpp):
07:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Immediately do the cargo payment on vehicle crashes instead of when they are cleared [FS#5152] (r24219)
07:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: The confirmation window to abort world generation was hidden during world generation, so actually you could not abort it [FS#5159] (r24214)
07:46:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: If a company is taken over or bankrupts, transfer exclusive transport rights to the new owner respectively cancel them (r24204)
07:47:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24232 /branches/1.2/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
07:47:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:47:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Dereferencing uninitialised pointer causing a crash [FS#5159] (r24224)
07:47:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Lag counters were not properly reset when switching states making it possible to get disconnected for lagging when you were not lagging [FS#5166] (r24221)
07:47:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Adopt ICU version detection to also deal with the new versioning scheme since ICU 49 (r24220)
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07:51:12 <andythenorth> backport spree :P
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07:57:49 <andythenorth> iirc, HEQS can cause openttd to crash
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08:00:54 <Alberth> bandit also needs fixing according to the devzone
08:01:40 <andythenorth> also my game needs trucks :P
08:02:27 <andythenorth> yes andythenorth has actually been playing a game
08:02:46 <andythenorth> and has some....observations
08:02:59 <Alberth> it's called 'testing' :p
08:03:23 <andythenorth> (1) FISH is stupid, it has diesel ships available in 1870, someone should tell the author
08:03:56 <Alberth> do you have oil wells at that time?
08:04:15 <andythenorth> well, maybe around 1900 for those things :P
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08:04:55 <andythenorth> (2) 'auto-refit to specified cargo' won't partial refit
08:05:15 <andythenorth> this is sad, and confusing because it uses the same gui :P
08:05:36 <Alberth> oh, I have not tested auto-refit yet at all
08:05:54 <andythenorth> it's potentially awesome
08:06:15 <andythenorth> (3) playing with 'freight weight multiplier = 6' is too hard, at least with UKRS 2 :P
08:06:23 <andythenorth> (4) station newgrfs are broken by railtypes
08:06:50 <andythenorth> (5) I dislike the dock in CHIPS and need ideas for improving it
08:08:16 <andythenorth> (6) roadtypes are needed
08:08:40 <Alberth> with default trains, I use freight multiplier 5 to 10 :)
08:09:00 <andythenorth> with US train sets I use 6 or so
08:09:02 <Alberth> not too many hills :p
08:09:21 <andythenorth> I play mountainous :P
08:11:06 <andythenorth> (7) I made canals much cheaper if FISH is used, this is good, canals are insanely stupidly expensive otherwise
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08:23:24 <spongie> Hi guys. I'm looking at the industrial station renewal tiles and theres a cool tile for having 3 tracks in 2 tiles (classification yard), but I can only make a switch for the two bottom tracks. The tile in the menu shows middle splitting to top, but in game when placed it switches from bottom to middle. Anyway to make it switchable to all three tracks?
08:26:46 <spongie> it doesnt matter because the pbs wont pick it up as a free rail anyway
08:26:51 <spongie> not sure exactly what the use is
08:29:41 <spongie> i wonder if its done using nml
08:33:32 <spongie> do you think it would possible to make a tunnel and/or bridge that has implicit block signals throughout so multiple trains can use it at the same time?
08:34:26 <Rubidium> in current official versions: no, theoretically: yes
08:35:09 * Alberth likes bi-directional bridges
08:35:27 <__ln__> theoretically, but you would have to rewrite half of the game?
08:35:49 <Rubidium> Dutch experiments with bi-directional rail tracks earlier this year have not proven to be a complete success ;)
08:38:04 <andythenorth> (8) CHIPS ain't that great, which is a shame, because I thought it was nearly done :|
08:38:12 <andythenorth> (9) rivers are still no use in my game
08:38:42 <andythenorth> rivers do at least look interesting
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08:44:10 <spongie> hm. the normal pbs behavior is thrown off when using trainshed station
08:45:33 <andythenorth> pbs should not pay any attention to station graphics
08:49:08 <Alberth> apparently, he said all he wanted to say :)
08:50:22 <andythenorth> simple industries are definitely more relaxing
08:50:38 <andythenorth> fishing grounds never change production, and have a short industry chain
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08:52:02 <andythenorth> also this game lacks farm clusters
08:52:07 <andythenorth> maybe they fail on small maps :P
08:53:38 <spongie> im guessing there is no way to use the road crossing in ISR for actual road vehicles?
08:54:09 <andythenorth> try Quant65s new objects thing for that
08:54:23 <andythenorth> it cheats by drawing 'station' objects over roads
08:54:49 <spongie> is there something that isn't a super hack that would add something more than just eye candy?
08:54:57 <spongie> i'm just experimenting with the grf's
08:55:12 <spongie> something cool to recommend perhaps?
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09:02:20 <Alberth> depends on what you want, there are NewGRFs for everything
09:02:40 * Alberth likes FIRS, an industry NewGRF
09:02:43 <andythenorth> stations are 100% eye candy though
09:03:45 <Alberth> except for the platform tiles :p
09:08:21 * andythenorth can't face spending yet another weekend restoring FIRS code that was already written and tested once
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09:09:32 <spongie> I'd like some grf that enables me to control what trains can use a track.
09:14:27 <spongie> guess i'm mostly looking at patches now tho
09:15:04 <Alberth> patchpack by chillcore may be interesting in that case
09:17:12 <spongie> wonderful if it gets into trunk
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09:17:49 <Alberth> needs complete rewrite at least
09:19:01 <spongie> chill's patches look pretty cool
09:20:05 <planetmaker> it's surely the best patch pack OpenTTD saw for years. But I recon it's not as stable as OpenTTD trunk
09:20:57 <spongie> i hope some of that stuff reaches trunk
09:21:02 <spongie> programmable signals, yum
09:21:23 <spongie> automated separation in timetables
09:22:18 <spongie> hm. having problems cloning the repos
09:22:49 <spongie> wrong url on the main page
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09:36:14 <spongie> hm. im not sure how to apply the progsigs patch
09:38:54 <spongie> I use git a lot, I don't make patches like that. :)
09:39:08 <Alberth> you need either git or mercurial to apply
09:39:17 <Alberth> or standard 'patch' :)
09:39:26 <planetmaker> the new svn patch from svn 1.7 afaik understands it, too
09:42:29 <spongie> doh. his git repos cant be built with gcc 4.7
09:45:15 <planetmaker> what does git have to do with the build tool used?
09:45:15 <spongie> something about codeblocks
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09:47:43 <spongie> when building from svn: checking revision... no detection
09:47:59 <spongie> and then a warning about not having a proper version
09:48:15 <spongie> same for both 1.2 branch and trunk
09:49:42 <Alberth> sounds like you are missing something that the script uses
09:50:12 <spongie> oh you meant as in some utility
09:51:00 <Alberth> ./findversion.sh does detection
09:51:51 <frosch123> our script fails with svn 1.7 checkouts iirc, if you do not check out trunk, but some higher level of the repository
09:52:05 <spongie> yeah, i just got it all
09:52:11 <spongie> branches, tags and trunk
09:52:24 <frosch123> yup, then our script fails with 1.7
09:52:51 <frosch123> it expects a ".svn" directory
09:53:05 <frosch123> which svn 1.7 does no longer have everywhere
09:53:24 <frosch123> also the format of "svn info" changed, so i think that fails as well
09:53:45 <frosch123> but so far, noone who uses already svn 1.7 bothered fixing it :(
09:54:20 <frosch123> and i cannot be bothered installing svn 1.7 if it is not in debian stable :p
10:00:18 <Alberth> even fedora doesn't have it
10:03:10 <TinoDidriksen> Debian stable? So, you're on svn 1.3?
10:03:47 <frosch123> stable means squeeze for me, and i have 1.6.12
10:07:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24233 /trunk/src/ (settings_gui.cpp settings_internal.h): -Codechange: Rename 'val_str' to 'str_val' to better match with 'strval' in the ini files.
10:08:06 <frosch123> note to translators: if you have other plans for the day, you should run now!
10:09:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24234 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Add help-string infrastructure to the ini files
10:09:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24235 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Add help-strings for the settings in the advanced settings window.
10:11:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24236 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Add: Add code to retrieve help strings from the setting tree and compute max height.
10:13:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24237 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: Descriptions explaining the meaning of advanced settings.
10:14:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24238 /trunk/src/lang/ (61 files in 2 dirs): -Add: String to display highlight selected setting in all languages.
10:17:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24239 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Add: Highlight setting that has its help text displayed.
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12:58:22 <Ammler> next suse distro will have 1.7 current has 1.6.18
13:00:11 <Ammler> well, you could also consider to give up svn
13:10:11 <opa> are newgrfs usually platformm dependent?
13:10:48 <FLHerne> They shouldn't be at all
13:11:48 <FLHerne> I've used standard newgrfs on at least 5 platforms, some very odd :P
13:12:05 <opa> just checked ISR and it had links to win and dos binaries
13:12:18 <FLHerne> That's for the graphics palette
13:12:29 <opa> although the info mentioned very old openttd version
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13:14:04 <FLHerne> Modern OTTD can use either just fine
13:20:32 <Ammler> but you might need to set the palette manually on older newgrfs
13:24:54 <planetmaker> well, you have in your cfg the 'default palette' which shall be assumed for newgrfs which don't declare their palette
13:25:20 <planetmaker> of course that will fail, if you use dos and windows-paletted newgrfs at the same time when they don't declare the palette
13:26:15 <planetmaker> opa: by default, I'd recomend you to get the windows-paletted newgrf as that is the default palette wich will be assumed when you made no changes at all to your cfg
13:26:44 <planetmaker> otoh, get ISR just from the online content... then you don't have to worry about versions ;-)
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13:31:29 <opa> well i have net only on my phone (usb tethering on androidd with os x...), otherwise i would have done it
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13:55:41 <opa> can someone give examples of newgrfs for industries, stations, trains, landscape? i'm looking for nice graphics and a bit bigger selection of trains than the regular ones
13:56:29 <opa> theres so many different sets available so its a bit hard to find good ones
13:57:37 <V453000> nobody can tell you what really is "good"
13:57:53 <opa> i have to download them with my phone so its quite cumbersome
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14:01:27 <opa> so the quality is quite good in most of the sets?
14:02:20 <FLHerne> FIRS [industries], UKRS2(+) [trains], eGRVTS, HEQS, Generic Tram Set [road vehicles & trams], OpenGFX+ Landscape, OGFX+ Trees [nicer ground & trees], NuTracks [rail tracks]
14:02:36 <FLHerne> That's what I use, or at least the key ones :P
14:03:54 <FLHerne> I can't think of any sets that aren't 'good quality', but there are some particularly good ones :-)
14:06:16 <opa> i remember trying firs but i was quite hard to get started
14:06:58 <FLHerne> Lots of industries :D
14:08:02 <Ammler> the ogfx+ newgrfs are good start
14:08:52 <Ammler> planetmaker: does ogfx+trains provide a light version?
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14:20:22 <frosch123> add grfstrip to the makefile and produce two grfs :)
14:26:27 <planetmaker> ^^ that's what can be done
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14:49:44 <hackalittlebit> frosch123: please have a look, I am curious. (can't help it) ;)
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14:50:30 <frosch123> is there something new?
14:51:44 <frosch123> if you mean the stuff you posted 2 hours ago, i already replied one hour ago
14:52:12 <hackalittlebit> i'll have a look
14:54:05 <planetmaker> hackalittlebit: what is contained in the attached zip?
14:54:16 <planetmaker> (I don't like the need to download and unzip stuff)
14:54:36 <planetmaker> it's extra work and a border to review things
14:55:37 <hackalittlebit> planetmaker: I did that for alberth
14:56:28 <hackalittlebit> but I can make one file no problem
14:58:12 <hackalittlebit> frosch123: point one ok
14:58:49 <hackalittlebit> point 2 snow line is scenery in odel railroading
14:59:52 * frosch123 never saw snow on a model railroad
15:00:35 <planetmaker> I wonder whether town names belong there... Probably yes. But it would be nice to have a way to consider the NewGRF town names as an option in the dropdown, too. Even if not (yet) configured in the NewGRF list. But it might be well out of scope here
15:00:49 <frosch123> hackalittlebit: google image search provides some hints :)
15:02:48 <planetmaker> ah, nice, frosch123
15:03:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: I actually wonder whether should remove the visibility of the old watery map edge...
15:03:51 <frosch123> hmm, modeling footsteps in the snow on a model railroad sounds like a lot of effort
15:04:03 <planetmaker> it's a setting we can't remove. But do we need it for new maps?
15:04:33 <frosch123> planetmaker: i like the expanding thing for those options
15:04:40 <frosch123> and it's not at all about old vs. new
15:04:48 <frosch123> but about choosing between island, inland or coast
15:04:58 <planetmaker> yes, I like that expansion for adv., too
15:05:31 <frosch123> and FLHerne said he uses that setting every day :p
15:06:30 <planetmaker> you find that statement probably for every single setting by one person or another ;-)
15:06:50 <FLHerne> That's why you should have customisable menus :P
15:07:15 <FLHerne> Then people can put in the options they use often
15:08:12 <hackalittlebit> but the options are saved, aren't they
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15:09:13 <FLHerne> Sorry, I mean customisable creation screens/option panels
15:09:30 <FLHerne> Menus would be good too though :P
15:15:26 <hackalittlebit> frosh123: do 'new game' 'advanced' 'show al', it will show you that place behind terrain type is occupied
15:16:11 <hackalittlebit> maybe put height beside map dimensions?
15:17:23 <hackalittlebit> frosch123: read above
15:22:46 <frosch123> hackalittlebit: you have either height or variety, not both
15:23:34 <frosch123> and putting height next to totally flat makes a lot of sense
15:24:34 <hackalittlebit> press 'se', 'terrain type hilly', advaced
15:26:24 <hackalittlebit> is that technically possible?
15:27:01 <hackalittlebit> one widget in same position as other
15:27:16 <frosch123> yes, you can switch between them then
15:27:33 <hackalittlebit> then consider it done
15:27:59 <hackalittlebit> and snow height?
15:28:14 <hackalittlebit> I like it were it is
15:28:50 <hackalittlebit> only shows up in arctic
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15:36:31 <frosch123> i have no real opinon on the snow line
15:36:51 <frosch123> i only wondered what could be moved to the second column of the map part
15:37:23 <frosch123> and moving snow line would open the option to move the rv side to the second coulumn
15:37:42 <frosch123> so almost all lines would have two things and the whole window would look less empty on the right
15:39:16 <hackalittlebit> posted updated version
15:42:22 <hackalittlebit> hehe I'll see if we can improve understandebility of options. I will post proposal
15:43:05 <hackalittlebit> I have to go, see you
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17:03:43 * andythenorth ponders how to create no-spin diffs with limited space
17:04:45 <Alberth> should I understand what that means? :)
17:05:47 <Alberth> are a Lim Kiln and a Brick works supposed to be next to each other?
17:06:19 <Alberth> it's nicely convenient for a quarry :)
17:06:41 <andythenorth> I'm using one large motor per axle for....more power
17:06:53 <andythenorth> and I need to use differentials on each axle, or it won't be able to turn
17:07:06 <andythenorth> but diffs mean one wheel can spin if it loses traction
17:07:22 <andythenorth> if that happens for all 4 axles, the truck goes nowhere :P
17:07:26 <Alberth> ah, now it makes sense :)
17:07:32 <andythenorth> usually the solution is locking diffs
17:07:42 <andythenorth> but I don't have room for locking diffs
17:08:00 <andythenorth> and I don't have room for one motor per wheel, which was my first choice :)
17:08:44 <Alberth> it's not big enough? :)
17:09:50 <andythenorth> I need a lot of clearance between the wheels and chassis
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17:09:56 <andythenorth> so the chassis must be narrow
17:10:23 <andythenorth> maybe I just build it with diffs and see if it spins
17:11:38 <Alberth> don't solve a problem until you actually have it :)
17:11:52 <andythenorth> with lego that means rebuilding :P
17:12:13 <planetmaker> you do that with your NewGRFs constantly :-P Hello andy :-)
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17:12:57 <andythenorth> maybe if I connect 2 diffs together there's less chance of spin
17:13:13 <Alberth> oh, and a nice fertisiler plant right next to the quarry for transporting chemicals back from the lime kiln!
17:13:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: more neighbouring industry checks are possible :P
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17:46:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24240 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 2 changes by telanus
17:46:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 132 changes by Rubidium
17:46:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 66 changes by jpx_
17:46:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 10 changes by glx
17:46:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 126 changes by planetmaker
17:59:42 <andythenorth> I should stop playing 'mountainous, high water'
17:59:54 <andythenorth> all land routes seem like a chore
18:00:04 <andythenorth> I end up with 10 bazillion ships every time
18:00:10 <andythenorth> and hundreds of feeders :P
18:02:09 <andythenorth> also I need ideas to make CHIPS less crappy
18:03:02 <FLHerne> ISR-style ground tiles, so I can fit it in with my dock better
18:03:59 <andythenorth> the CHIPS dock is lame
18:04:04 <andythenorth> but I hate ISR style ground
18:04:54 <FLHerne> CHIPS ground is better, but ISR has so many more types
18:05:37 <FLHerne> That almost fits in, I'll be using Quast65's newobjects next though
18:05:45 <andythenorth> the CHIPS ground is meh
18:05:50 <FLHerne> ...which are ISR-style, of course
18:06:03 <andythenorth> the concrete is just blah
18:06:13 <andythenorth> maybe it should have tile borders
18:06:23 <FLHerne> Real concrete is blah too
18:06:43 <FLHerne> It looks like concrete, which is good. Tile borders would be ugly
18:08:21 <andythenorth> there's no solution to that
18:08:40 <andythenorth> well....maybe a parameter on CHIPS
18:08:49 <andythenorth> I use the original TTD graphics
18:08:52 <andythenorth> where the mud matches
18:10:06 <FLHerne> Ah. Couldn't you use dedicated sprites in FIRS instead of OGFX mud?
18:10:21 <FLHerne> Although OGFX is better anyway :P
18:10:41 <andythenorth> that solution causes politics
18:13:37 <andythenorth> because then FIRS doesn't match the base set
18:15:36 <FLHerne> Can CHIPS not use the baseset mud then?
18:16:01 <andythenorth> station spec is inadequate
18:17:00 <FLHerne> Can CHIPS detect what baseset is in use?
18:17:09 <andythenorth> that's not permitted as it could be abused
18:17:24 <andythenorth> I don't really care, I don't use opengfx
18:18:42 <andythenorth> same reason I don't fix the FIRS mud ground tile, even though it looks wrong
18:18:51 <planetmaker> No-one who makes bigger graphics sets cares
18:19:18 <andythenorth> it's too much work to support both
18:19:26 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with opengfx btw ;)
18:19:53 <planetmaker> except that no-one cares ;-)
18:20:13 <andythenorth> it's probably what most players are using now?
18:20:28 <FLHerne> How do FIRS mud tiles look wrong?
18:20:30 <andythenorth> I imagine the number of players finding the original TTD graphics is a small fraction of openttd downloads
18:20:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they use 'plain mud' tile, rather than 'mud with tracks'
18:20:53 <planetmaker> I dion't have statistics of the last half year.
18:21:05 <andythenorth> opengfx substitutes the original 'mud with tracks' tile for a plain tile
18:21:14 <planetmaker> and I can only go by either bug reports or forums
18:21:46 * andythenorth is stuck in 1994
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18:24:20 <andythenorth> also what railtype sets are people in this channel using?
18:24:40 <andythenorth> I might need to make CHIPS work only with Pikka's tracks
18:25:16 <Alberth> enhanced a bit with gfx+ :)
18:26:12 <FLHerne> I might try Pikka's kind sometime though
18:26:51 <andythenorth> how do I disable CHIPS if pikka tracks are not present?
18:27:30 <planetmaker> most people - if they use railtracks - seem to use NuTracks
18:27:40 <planetmaker> just an uneducated impression, though
18:27:57 <FLHerne> Why would you want to do that?
18:28:09 <andythenorth> because it CHIPS will be broken with other railsets
18:29:02 <FLHerne> Is that a good idea? Breaking the significant majority of tracksets including the default seems a bit silly :-(
18:29:09 <andythenorth> the platforms will be drawn over the tracks
18:29:16 <andythenorth> I use pikka tracks
18:29:42 <andythenorth> the only way CHIPS will work with them is to change CHIPS :P
18:29:50 <FLHerne> Most people don't though...
18:30:19 <FLHerne> Have it use different sprites if Pikka's set exists?
18:31:25 <andythenorth> the sprites are GRM-ed
18:31:42 <andythenorth> but probably the action 1 might be skipped
18:32:38 <andythenorth> GRF Resource Management
18:32:50 <andythenorth> I don't understand the purpose of it, but it's necessary for stations
18:33:02 <andythenorth> some stations /s
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18:38:50 <planetmaker> I think it's just an announcement of which grf uses the base station tiles
18:38:57 <planetmaker> or something along those lines
18:39:56 <andythenorth> anyway, CHIPS is now fixed for pikka tracks
18:40:54 <andythenorth> and possibly broken for other sets
18:41:04 <FLHerne> does that de-fix all other sets then?
18:41:51 <andythenorth> broken for maglev in default
18:41:56 <andythenorth> looks ok for monorail
18:42:01 <andythenorth> normal tracks are meh
18:43:00 <andythenorth> swedish rails looks kind of ok
18:44:47 <Alberth> FLHerne: your chance to test it first :p
18:46:12 <FLHerne> Alberth: Any compiled versions available yet?
18:47:20 <Alberth> :o you use a computer without the necessary tools installed and ready for use?? :o
18:47:54 <FLHerne> For NewGRFs, yes. I have suitable tools for other stuff :P
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18:53:41 <FLHerne> Sand stations leave grass showing with Pikka's tracks though
18:54:17 <FLHerne> and the mud ones look strange with Pikka ballast
18:57:10 <andythenorth> sand stations will be deprecated anyway
18:59:14 <andythenorth> CHIPS looks better with the ISR dock sprites
18:59:36 * andythenorth wonders how to make it a parameter choice
18:59:44 <V453000> btw andy the new farms are a lot better
18:59:50 <V453000> havent tested the other industries too much yet
19:00:03 <andythenorth> what's better about the farms?
19:00:34 <Rienzilla> is there a way to improve graphics performance in openttd on macos?
19:00:46 <Rienzilla> fully zoomed out the game is pretty much unplayable
19:01:03 <andythenorth> turn off animation
19:01:06 <Rienzilla> we thank you for your constructive comment :)
19:01:10 <andythenorth> turn off full detail
19:01:17 <andythenorth> buy a faster mac
19:01:21 <V453000> the productions andy :)
19:01:24 <Rienzilla> well it's not that slow andy
19:01:30 <andythenorth> play a smaller map
19:01:35 <Rienzilla> my much slower laptop on linux does not have any trouble at all
19:01:39 <andythenorth> use fewer vehicles
19:01:44 <andythenorth> use your linux box ;)
19:01:52 <planetmaker> enable the 8bpp mode explicity in your cfg file might help, too
19:02:10 <andythenorth> I thought the OS X blitter was forced to 32bpp sometime ago? :O
19:02:13 <planetmaker> by default osx uses 32bpp (as opposed to all other OS)
19:02:26 <planetmaker> not forced, but defaulting to
19:02:32 <andythenorth> I thought 8bpp was broken for OS X? Bad assumption?
19:02:40 <planetmaker> broken on some installs
19:02:49 <andythenorth> Rienzilla: what box do you have, how much cpu is openttd eating?
19:04:57 <FLHerne> Install Linux on your Mac?
19:05:57 <planetmaker> wouldn't change many of the man pages then ;-)
19:06:45 <planetmaker> like ... "SED(1) BSD General Commands Manual SED(1) "
19:06:52 <FLHerne> Might not have the hardware support? BSD license so Apple might not have donated drive code?
19:06:58 <Rienzilla> andythenorth: it's a recent mac mini with an i5
19:07:18 <Rienzilla> and i think it's just the rendering that is slow; if I zoom in the game runs fine
19:07:26 <andythenorth> I have i7 2.7Ghz, a 256x256 map with not many vehicles uses 30% on full zoom out
19:07:27 <planetmaker> FLHerne, macs are quite default hardware...
19:07:50 <andythenorth> also they open source Darwin
19:07:51 <Alberth> Rienzilla: perhaps changing the sprite cache helps
19:08:00 <Rienzilla> Alberth: what's that?
19:08:09 <planetmaker> good point, Alberth !
19:08:12 <andythenorth> FISH ships bounce when fully zoomed out
19:08:17 <planetmaker> I keep forgetting it...
19:08:19 <Alberth> it's a cache for sprites? :)
19:08:22 <andythenorth> the bounding box must change size :P
19:09:05 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Ah, they are now? I have many of the nubus variety :P
19:09:39 <FLHerne> Which are about as non-standard as they get :-(
19:09:48 <planetmaker> They use intel CPUs and AMD / NVidea graphics card for years
19:10:01 <planetmaker> At least the last 5 or so
19:10:34 <FLHerne> I know they're Intel now, but just assumed they kept the random quirks :P
19:11:08 <planetmaker> one of the biggest differences used to be the BIOS, which is some kind of uefi... but that's getting more common now, too
19:12:13 <Rienzilla> looks like all rendering is done by the cpu :)
19:12:42 <NataS> we still don't have GPU support?
19:12:53 <Alberth> NataS: nope, not useful
19:13:08 <NataS> it's usefull, would free up CPU power for pathfinding
19:13:12 <NataS> which is more important
19:13:48 <andythenorth> are modern GPUs really good at drawing sprites then?
19:14:34 <andythenorth> NataS: your pathfinding is slow?
19:14:39 <planetmaker> they're good at putting textures on 3D models
19:15:01 <NataS> not really, but not everyone has an i7
19:15:21 <NataS> it seems it would help some older computers though.
19:15:37 <andythenorth> they should just not use newgrfs
19:15:43 <Rienzilla> lol at 1920x1080 it uses a complete core for just the welcome screen :D
19:15:45 <NataS> and the really good pathfinding algor...
19:16:15 <andythenorth> what's mean about helping them run their game faster?
19:16:19 <NataS> >Don't have an expensive computer
19:16:28 <NataS> >can't play a nice game.
19:16:49 <NataS> it's not Crysis, it should be able to work efficiently on all computers.
19:17:03 <NataS> and make the best use of available resources.
19:17:16 <andythenorth> it does make the best use of available resources
19:17:19 <andythenorth> it uses lots of CPU
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19:18:20 <NataS> yeah, but pathfinding is the most CPU consuming activity, so less intensive things ought to be shunted to the GPU
19:18:31 <andythenorth> do you have new profiling charts?
19:18:31 <NataS> if you have a graphics card, you might as well use it for something
19:18:52 <Alberth> NataS: then please provide a working demo
19:19:01 <planetmaker> whether PF is the most consuming task or not really depends on the map, vehicle count, newgrfs, etc
19:19:05 <andythenorth> first I'd prove that the problem exists
19:19:32 <andythenorth> recent profiling suggests that removing newgrf would provide the biggest efficiency gain for the savegames that were profiled
19:24:06 <Rienzilla> meh the difference is so huge :)
19:24:18 <planetmaker> did you increase sprite cache size?
19:24:51 <FLHerne> Interesting - Presence/absence of newgrfs didn't have any obvious effect on my Powerbook
19:25:15 <FLHerne> Perhaps it was too slow already so it didn't matter or something?
19:26:07 <planetmaker> you can check that by the cpu usage
19:26:28 <FLHerne> 100% permanently, no matter what :P
19:26:40 <planetmaker> then it's too slow obviously ;-)
19:26:54 <planetmaker> you probably would notice that it's more laggy with NewGRFs
19:27:56 <FLHerne> I didn't...I did notice that adding ten or so vehicles had a noticeable slowdown, but not NewGRFs
19:29:01 <planetmaker> well... Highly depends, of course, which NewGRFs
19:29:16 <planetmaker> Adding vehicle NewGRFs or station NewGRFs w/o using them ingame has ofc. no effect
19:29:46 <planetmaker> adding an industry NewGRF like ECS (and FIRS, but a bit less so) has a measurable effect, esp. on larger maps
19:30:21 <FLHerne> eGRVTS with 10 vehicles was no different to default with 10 vehicles.
19:30:31 <FLHerne> FIRS crashed the game...
19:30:36 <planetmaker> egrvts is not a terribly complicated NewGRF
19:30:48 <planetmaker> FIRS crashed it?!
19:31:19 <FLHerne> Having an IRC client open at the same time crashed it, too :P
19:31:35 <andythenorth> you're using OS 9 :P
19:31:36 <FLHerne> I doubt FIRS specifically was to blame
19:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I might need to make CHIPS work only with Pikka's tracks <-- when i get my way with a curvy track set, you'd probably have to throw away all your work :p
19:41:17 <andythenorth> curvy stations? :)
19:42:23 <planetmaker> any work done to that end, Eddi|zuHause - or only concept stage so far?
19:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rienzilla> fully zoomed out the game is pretty much unplayable <-- i generall only zoom out while paused
19:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no work yet, except a prospect of the combinatorial stuff
19:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: afair michi_cc tried to make some graphics, but got nowhere
19:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe pixa could generate them
19:47:38 *** NataS is now known as Nat_AFK
19:48:03 <planetmaker> Nat_AFK, you know that a name change to indicate AFK is absolutely not needed and only spams?
19:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but i was currently working on having pixa generate CETS sprites (arbitrarily coloured boxes for now)
19:48:26 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Conceptually, it's quite easy, but drawing sprites that look good in practice is difficult stuff :p
19:48:32 <planetmaker> ah, I see. For the cargo, Eddi|zuHause ?
19:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, more for all the currently undrawn vehicles
19:49:09 <planetmaker> I see, michi_cc :-) So it "just" needs sprites for all possible combinations?
19:49:19 <andythenorth> make pixa follow paths?
19:49:33 <andythenorth> curves are just [some stuff I learnt in school about maths, but forgot]
19:49:48 <andythenorth> polynomial equations could draw smiley faces iirc :P
19:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i maybe need different pixa sequences for each sprite, instead of the whole spritegroup
19:50:06 <michi_cc> It needs sprites for the basic building blocks, the various combinations can then be superimposed.
19:50:29 <andythenorth> pixa can load sprites
19:50:31 <andythenorth> and combine them
19:50:40 <andythenorth> I do cargos that way
19:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, andythenorth, that is probably useful
19:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but we need the basic parts first
19:51:11 <andythenorth> got any example output yet?
19:51:21 <andythenorth> I just picked BANDIT up co-incidentally
19:51:26 <andythenorth> so my head is back in pixa-space
19:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> for each rail bit, the section from the middle to the edge of the tile
19:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> in three variants. straight, left turn, right turn
19:51:49 <Pixa> Pixa-space is the best space :p
19:51:52 <planetmaker> michi_cc, so each tile's tracks would probably need to be composed of two sprites
19:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 12 trackdir-bits, times 3 variants
19:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> probably 3 layers
19:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> track base, sleepers, rails
19:53:11 <planetmaker> well, yes, that, too
19:53:37 <planetmaker> But separating those three layers would actually make it even easier (and better looking)
19:58:59 <andythenorth> when a vehicle is built, it's preferable that capacity matches buy menu reported capacity
19:59:08 <andythenorth> [BANDIT fails at this]
19:59:27 <planetmaker> well. Other values would be at least unexpected
19:59:53 <planetmaker> But if the cargo... is lighter or more bulky and the purchase list reports for another cargo...
20:00:21 <andythenorth> it's an issue due to refit subtypes
20:00:42 <andythenorth> I report max capacity, but as-built capacity uses first refit subtype, which is....less
20:00:47 <andythenorth> can probably fix that
20:23:52 <FLHerne> Has anyone tried to compile OTTD for Linux/m68k?
20:24:53 * FLHerne tries for the sake of it
20:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: as long as you have all the libraries, why would you expect any problems?
20:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: of course, you may have trouble getting it to run on low speed/memory
20:41:15 <FLHerne> Performance, mostly. If a 133MHz PPC is just barely playable with 64MB RAM, a 33MHz and 16MB RAM might not work at all
20:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 16MB might be the more severe limitation
20:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> TT original used around 4MB
20:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and ran ok-ish on 33MHz with low number of vehicles
20:43:14 <michi_cc> FLHerne: It might work if you use an 8bpp blitter, set "min_zoom" to 2 (more zoom in == more memory) and the sprite cache size to ~ 4.
20:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but it was written in hand-optimized assembler. not sure if a compiler can reach that
20:44:02 <FLHerne> On my PB1400, OTTD is borderline useable with all those tweaks done. Uses about 20MB.
20:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> we used to provide morphos binaries
20:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was discontinued because it required gcc 2.ancient
20:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which couldn't handle the C++ magic we needed
20:47:13 <FLHerne> Interesting, I never heard of that :P
20:47:25 <FLHerne> I have a G4, so I'll have to try it :D
20:47:32 <michi_cc> OpenTTD has a lot more features than TTD had, so it's not surprising at all if OpenTTD needs more CPU power than TTD did.
20:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> does openttd still build with gcc 3.x?
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22:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> concerning a 32bpp-free "light" version of ogfx+trains, wouldn't bananas prevent such a thing, because of same grf-id?
22:01:12 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no. It would be the same NewGRF, but without the 32bpp sprites. The md5sums would match by means of grfid- m
22:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. but you cannot upload both to bananas
22:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it useless
22:01:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the goal is that bananas does the grfstrip itself
22:01:53 <planetmaker> The ultimate plan is that banans offers that stripping itself
22:01:58 <frosch123> and users can choose what to download
22:02:46 <frosch123> but so far ottd can likely not deal with multiple grfs with the same md5sum, but different colour depths and or zoom levels
22:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll pick a pseudorandom one?
22:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> whichever it finds first
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